More information comes out on MS + NSA collaboration

#1 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2492 posts) -

Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

Pretty crazy article, especially stuff like:

"Microsoft's co-operation was not limited to Outlook.com. An entry dated 8 April 2013 describes how the company worked "for many months" with the FBI – which acts as the liaison between the intelligence agencies and Silicon Valley on Prism – to allow Prism access without separate authorization to its cloud storage service SkyDrive."

Tinfoil hats aside, some of the stuff MS is just giving the government carte blanche access to through PRISM is just creepy as hell.

#2 Posted by Residentrevil2 (445 posts) -

Eh, I'm fine with this... yes, I'm evil I know.

#3 Edited by Krakn3Dfx (2492 posts) -

I'm really not. You could argue that the iPhone I have siting on my desk is capable of the same thing the Kinect is as far a monitoring, but the way MS is just giving complete, unrestricted access to the feds for all of their systems is some 1984 level shit IMO.

Glad I spend most of my time in Ubuntu on my PC except for when I'm gaming.

#4 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

Maybe they have that copy of my essay I lost...I could really use it for a reference..

#5 Posted by Blu3V3nom07 (4221 posts) -

I just don't give a shit.

#6 Posted by confideration (414 posts) -

There are factual inaccuracies in a lot of these stories. Microsoft responded to a few of them but obviously can't share the exact process the government has to go through to retrieve data. The same goes for the rest of the American companies required by law to comply with these laws.

It's a tough thing to debate. If this is one way to catch bad guys then you really dont want to tell those bad guys how you're gathering information on them. However, a program like this should aim to keep the public trust. I don't know how you do that without disclosure.

#7 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

There are factual inaccuracies in a lot of these stories. Microsoft responded to a few of them but obviously can't share the exact process the government has to go through to retrieve data. The same goes for the rest of the American companies required by law to comply with these laws.

It's a tough thing to debate. If this is one way to catch bad guys then you really dont want to tell those bad guys how you're gathering information on them. However, a program like this should aim to keep the public trust. I don't know how you do that without disclosure.

You cant. And the only reason MS is in the spotlight for all of this is because of the recent Xboxone stuff and kinect.

Facebook,Verizion,AT&T among other companies have done the same thing.

People treat it like MS walked up to the government and threw the keys at them. You start a business that requires file keeping and when asked to show some records say "No" And see how fast you get shut down and tossed in jail.

#8 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2492 posts) -

@confideration said:

There are factual inaccuracies in a lot of these stories. Microsoft responded to a few of them but obviously can't share the exact process the government has to go through to retrieve data. The same goes for the rest of the American companies required by law to comply with these laws.

It's a tough thing to debate. If this is one way to catch bad guys then you really dont want to tell those bad guys how you're gathering information on them. However, a program like this should aim to keep the public trust. I don't know how you do that without disclosure.

You cant. And the only reason MS is in the spotlight for all of this is because of the recent Xboxone stuff and kinect.

Facebook,Verizion,AT&T among other companies have done the same thing.

People treat it like MS walked up to the government and threw the keys at them. You start a business that requires file keeping and when asked to show some records say "No" And see how fast you get shut down and tossed in jail.

MS could have filed a Motion for Protective Order and let it play out, at least then they would have had a basis to defend their actions.

As it stands, they did not, and they worked with the FBI for months to completely integrate PRISM into their systems at every level we're aware of.

It's not always an 'all or nothing' proposition when it comes to complying with government requests for data, there are steps that can be taken to try and prevent or at least delay compliance, MS took none of these steps.

At the end of the day, personal freedom comes down to steps forward and back. Most people need a phone and a PC to work and live in today's society, so you assume certain risks to function in society. No one needs a game console to do the same.

#9 Edited by StarvingGamer (8284 posts) -

HOT COLLABO'!

#10 Posted by FourWude (2261 posts) -

We truly are living in some neo-Mussolini-fascist society. Governments and Corporations in bed with each other.

Not that anyone with half a brain didn't already know that.

#11 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

Facebook retweeted me when I said they leaked info to the NSA.

#12 Posted by Maddman60620 (133 posts) -

Why is this sooo shocking to anyone?!?!?! Many people share some of the most intimate details of their life on Facebook which you don't even have to be a hacker to get at someone personal details + FB updates use to turn off the privicy features which made your info public til you changed them back yourself, many cell services like Verizon have your texts stored on there servers and Phone companies have the records of who you call and how long phone calls have been stored since round the 70s-80s and Library records the same....... And Companies & Corps have been gathering any and all data on you, your love ones, & enemies to sell to the highest bidder since forever....

Freedom is an illusion, a Santa Claus like lie the many sheep or people (depending on how rude you want to be about it) tell themselves they have.... you want to talk about the rights or freedoms that you have..... First talk to Native Americans, then talk to the Blacks, then the Latinos, WWII Asians in the US, Irish, Italians, and just go down the list of how a government/corp have preyed on them....

This has been going on for a long time and guess what it will continue, with or without your "blessing" your info won't be safer just easier to gather because of the tech we all count on to make things work in our daily lives..... but if this bothers you sooo much, sell all your stuff move to the middle of nowhere, trade with only silver and gold ore, hunt and grow your own food, make your own clothing, and most importantly don't use any machines made in the past 100-200 years..... Hey you don't hear the Amish complaining do you......

#13 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2492 posts) -

@maddman60620: So, obviously, better to be an apologist for this kind of stuff than actually speak against it, that way you still get to play Halo without losing sleep at night I guess.

#14 Edited by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

Why is this sooo shocking to anyone?!?!?! Many people share some of the most intimate details of their life on Facebook which you don't even have to be a hacker to get at someone personal details + FB updates use to turn off the privicy features which made your info public til you changed them back yourself, many cell services like Verizon have your texts stored on there servers and Phone companies have the records of who you call and how long phone calls have been stored since round the 70s-80s and Library records the same....... And Companies & Corps have been gathering any and all data on you, your love ones, & enemies to sell to the highest bidder since forever....

Freedom is an illusion, a Santa Claus like lie the many sheep or people (depending on how rude you want to be about it) tell themselves they have.... you want to talk about the rights or freedoms that you have..... First talk to Native Americans, then talk to the Blacks, then the Latinos, WWII Asians in the US, Irish, Italians, and just go down the list of how a government/corp have preyed on them....

This has been going on for a long time and guess what it will continue, with or without your "blessing" your info won't be safer just easier to gather because of the tech we all count on to make things work in our daily lives..... but if this bothers you sooo much, sell all your stuff move to the middle of nowhere, trade with only silver and gold ore, hunt and grow your own food, make your own clothing, and most importantly don't use any machines made in the past 100-200 years..... Hey you don't hear the Amish complaining do you......

Wait.....Santa isnt real?

#15 Edited by Maddman60620 (133 posts) -

@krakn3dfx: Its not an apologist stance at all... Its a realist one... If you think that using what is equal to a bathroom stall with magic markers(internet forums) to take your big stand to the man of your distrust or disgust with an evil corp or evil government then by all means do so.... but my guess is most late to the game "Ragers" against the machine are only doing so cause it's the bee's knees now and are using a "evil" apple/google/microsoft corp made pc/labtop/phone/tab/whatever with bowser software made by the same "evil" corps to do this big stand... it's silly and will not change a thing unless the people concerned unplug and drop off the grid......

And the fact most of this late to the game "Ragers" against the machine are solely against what they think a videogame system of a company they didn't like in the first might do, is dumb.... I would have more respect for the Ragers if they said "F' all corps and companies for this NSA $#!t, I will build a Linux based PC and hack/crack/pirate all Blu-Rays, DVDs, Games etc. because I hate the system!!!!" but........ that's not what you're doing.... nope you're just late to the rager party dog piling a yet to be release system on a popular to hate company for issues as old as dirt and your end game is to run to the competing company(whose just as evil) as you new lord of gaming lol......

Just like with DRM Sony & Apple are just a guilty.... Don't think these Corps & Companies that don't make it to your personal rader of evil are for the people just because the government taxes and treats them as if they were people.... wake up and smell the real world man, its not going to change overnight or at all if you continue to feed the beast that you say you hate.....

#16 Edited by Syed117 (387 posts) -

It seems like everyone these days just wants to jump from one bandwagon to another. No one thinks two seconds ahead of what they are saying and how it applies to their personal circumstances.

It was the same with the xbox needing an online check in every 24 hours and it is the same with all this nonsense about privacy.

I'm not sure how to respond to someone who honestly thinks that xbox one users will be spied on or that if someone doesn't buy an xbox one, they are safe. It's childish to say the least and the simple truth is that internet forums are dominated by children who scream fire every chance they get.

If you really think that the Kinect will be used to spy on people, then you need to take a few more steps to protect yourself.

- Unplug yourself from the internet completely. No email, no chat, no facebook. no forums. Nothing. No Internet.

- Get rid of your cell phone. No calling, no text and obviously nothing data related. Your cell phone has a camera, probably two. One facing each direction. Can't have that can we? You spend most of your time with a device that can record audio and video and you're worried about the kinect which sits in a room facing one direction that you probably spend much less time interacting with? Really?

- Move to some remote location where there is no chance that a camera might see you. Except of course the big cameras in the sky. Can you hide from those?

If the government or anyone else wants to spy on you, they can and they will. There is nothing you can do to stop them. Screaming about the xbox one and kinect should be the last of your worries.

It's hilarious and it's depressing to see how people think and what they choose to avoid thinking about. You have huge websites like IGN with giant video headlines that read "is it watching you?" with a picture of the kinect. That does nothing but further the ignorance and stupidity of the gaming children who then turn and spread it everywhere else.

This is the world we live in. It's hilarious that the internet mobs think they have the power to change anything because they changed the policies of a video game machine. That is hilarious.

Remember one last thing. There are extremely intelligent people out there who will dissect every last inch of the xbox one and the kinect as well as the PS4. You really think that with all the tear downs and investigations into the hardware that someone won't figure out every last bit of data being sent to and from the console? It will all be out there. If it turns out that the xbox one or PS4 are sending data, people will be there to find out every last detail about what is happening in those machines.

Wake up and think for yourselves instead of rallying behind every single cause you have no understanding of.

#18 Edited by Krakn3Dfx (2492 posts) -

@syed117 said:

Wake up and think for yourselves instead of rallying behind every single cause you have no understanding of.

Don't assume everyone knows less than you do and you'll probably do well in life. As an IS Manager for one of the largest business title companies in Colorado, I deal with network and internet security based technology on a daily basis, and I don't "rally" behind things I don't understand, I express concern about things I do understand that have far reaching implications.

Also, if I don't understand something, I'm definitely not going to go on a game site to have someone lay down the facts, I'm going to go to people that understand the technology behind the product.

#19 Edited by Syed117 (387 posts) -

@krakn3dfx: im not assuming anything. I'm responding to the way people are acting. It is everywhere. My post wasn't aimed directly at you. It's for all the people who are ready to now start complaining and questioning privacy when they gave that up a long time ago. No one has a filter anymore and they have already given up so much about themselves freely. Just because some documents came out recently that had Microsofts name on them, gamers start a revolt. Are they doing the name for the other companies in those documents? Of course not.

It seems like the majority these days just needs something to cry about. It's all negativity and delusion. Anyone who thinks that the kinect will spy on you and posts about it on an Internet forum needs a reality check. There are a lot of other things to worry about. You can't put on the Microsoft tin foil hat and ignore everything else.

#20 Posted by OurSin_360 (920 posts) -

People always say shit like "Oh it's just a game system" "Oh it's just facebook" etc etc, what better resource is there to spy on citizens? It's not really microsofts fault, they dont' really have a choice either way and neither do we at this point. People threw privacy out when they decided to circumvent the constitution to "fight terror". Google, Facebook, your ISP, your Phone company, are all collecting data for the government and corporations. It's kind of a double edged sword at the end of the day, the more connected we become the less privacy we have.

Try and search yourself on Spokeo or another crowd sourcing site, it's crazy how much data people have out there they don't realize they let out.

Don't need a tin foil hat to see what's right in front of you tbh.

#21 Posted by Maddman60620 (133 posts) -

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/08/173733255/the-history-of-the-fbis-secret-enemies-list

A government gets things wrong and does things that are wrong all in the name of protecting the well being and the interest of the nation... This issue is an old one and will not go away, even in the mid-evil world of kings and queens this was an issue... its not giving a pass but it is a fact of life when dealing with human beings, they will bend and break rules solely to protect self interest.... most big corps are in fact small governments and act in the same fashion.... Tech is something that you understand or not understand and no matter how basic and high-end it might it, can be exploited and use to help others self interest....

#22 Posted by Maddman60620 (133 posts) -

VICE show has a more down to earth and real deal type less hype take on these subjects.....

#23 Edited by datarez (554 posts) -
#24 Posted by wardcleaver (173 posts) -

To think that MS "voluntarily" allowed the government access to this info is naïve, at best. When the government comes calling, it most often is "all or nothing".

#25 Posted by Hunkulese (2745 posts) -

I'd have more of a problem if Microsoft was trying to restrict access.

If there's anyone to get angry at it would be the FBI if they were using the information to spy on people without a warrant or probable cause.

If the FBI has legitimate reasons to gain access to this information why do you have a problem with Microsoft working with them?

#26 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3349 posts) -

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that there were people who didn't assume all of this already. Maybe this was just years of paranoid-corporate mentality "paying off" but this PRISM bull shit is about the most "yeah guys, obviously" thing I've ever heard since it was revealed JFK was a player.

Online
#27 Posted by JasonR86 (9714 posts) -

I've said it before but I would love to see how people would react if the same lack of privacy and nonchalance was given to mental health information. I doubt there would be many "it's fine" comments then. Personal information is just that; personal. If it is offered the duty of the one holding the information should treat it with the respect it deserves. The nature of the personal information is irrelevant to me. It's the principle of the matter.

Online
#28 Edited by DonPixel (2585 posts) -

@krakn3dfx said:

@maddman60620: So, obviously, better to be an apologist for this kind of stuff than actually speak against it, that way you still get to play Halo without losing sleep at night I guess.

giantbomb.com ]what were you expecting to be honest?

#29 Posted by Subjugation (4722 posts) -

If they want your information they will get it. I'd be way more worried about cell phones personally, not consoles.

#30 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2492 posts) -

From the XBOX Terms of Use:

You should not expect any level of privacy concerning your use of the live communication features (for example, voice chat, video and communications in live-hosted gameplay sessions) offered through the Xbox LIVE/Games for Windows-LIVE Service. We may monitor these communications to the extent permitted by law. However, we cannot monitor the entire Service and make no attempt to do so. You understand that others can record and use these communications. Communications in live-hosted gameplay sessions may also be broadcast to others. Some games may use game managers and hosts. Game managers and hosts are not authorized Microsoft spokespersons. Their views do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft.

#31 Posted by CrossTheAtlantic (1145 posts) -

Pretty sure the initial PRISM reveal disclosed that the entire data gathering program was developed by Microsoft, so it's not really surprising they'd work directly with the government on it. As with most of this stuff, they probably say they didn't voluntarily work with the government because they didn't and were ordered by a secret court or some such nonsense.

#32 Posted by Hunkulese (2745 posts) -

@maddman60620: So, obviously, better to be an apologist for this kind of stuff than actually speak against it, that way you still get to play Halo without losing sleep at night I guess.

Why exactly do we need to speak against it? It's on the FBI to not mistreat or take advantage of the access they're given. Not on Microsoft to deny them access.

#33 Posted by Unilad (564 posts) -

I see this as an act due to fear. We outnumber Governmnets by an astronimacl margin. It is no secret that armies are not fans of who, and why they are fighting. If we so choose (and had the effort) to orchestrate a national coup, we could overrun the government.

We've all played Dead Rising, so we know how to kill mofos' (too soon?) and if we so choosed so we could take Governments by force.

#34 Posted by Veektarius (4869 posts) -

Why is this listed under the Xbox One? I can guarantee you that Microsoft hasn't shared any data from Xbox One users.

#35 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2492 posts) -

I can guarantee you that Microsoft hasn't shared any data from Xbox One users.

Wait, but, it's not...

Yeah, hey, I guess you're right.

#36 Posted by Snail (8606 posts) -

To think that MS "voluntarily" allowed the government access to this info is naïve, at best. When the government comes calling, it most often is "all or nothing".

You would know.

#37 Posted by DFSVegas (354 posts) -

You don't "collaborate" with the government, you cooperate with the government. Collaboration insinuates that you have a choice in the matter.

#38 Posted by Dagbiker (6977 posts) -

First, I want to say.

I hope you don't think the united states is the only country with a program like this?

Second I want to say.

America should be the only country that never has a program like this. It (might?) make us safer, but i would rater blow up to an asshole in a parking lot then live in fear that i would blow up in a parking lot, all the while some guy is watching me through my webcam, and not doing a thing about it.

#39 Posted by JouselDelka (966 posts) -

But almost nobody uses Outlook, MSN messenger or any other Microsoft "services" aside from Windows and Office, more or less, so who are they spying on?

I still to this day don't know what Skydive is and never have used it.

#40 Posted by falserelic (5445 posts) -

Some people might argue its the work of the Illuminati.

so much suspense..

#41 Posted by mtcantor (948 posts) -

Blah blah blah. Lets focus on the real issue people! The government killed Easy E!

#42 Posted by zeeshanaayan07 (12 posts) -

What is blah blah blah

#43 Edited by Dallas_Raines (2161 posts) -

Thanks, Obama.

#44 Posted by Ryanmgraef (236 posts) -

We live in the dark future we always read about in cyber punk books. It's awful and exciting at the same time. I want my google retina display!

#45 Posted by firecracker22 (550 posts) -

Person of Interest.

That's all I can think of when reading about these things.

#46 Posted by TangoUp (307 posts) -

One of the most annoying people I see are those who scream about tinfoil hats and ridicule doubts as conspiracy theories. This time you have proof in front of your eyes and yet people still scream about tinfoil hats? You have to be a special kind of 'thick' to be able to do that.

#47 Edited by Silver-Streak (1363 posts) -

@dallas_raines: Actually, Prism is a George W. Bush-era program(it was supposedly one of the last security acts he was a part of signing off on in 2007). Current administration being ok with it sucks balls, but put the correct blame in the correct places.

Edit: And in related news, apparently the current administration at least realizes it may be a problem and are taking some (Although not enough, I feel) steps to rectify it: http://www.tomsguide.com/us/obama-nsa-reforms,news-17329.html

#48 Edited by audioBusting (1564 posts) -

I saw the thread title and thought that NSA is making a video game.

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