The XBONE every game is worth 1000 points policy makes Gamerscore totally meaningless if it wasn't already.

Posted by BigSocrates (349 posts) -

I never much cared about gamerscore. Achievements are cool because they A) Give you a small incentive to pursue side stuff you might not otherwise care about, like finishing off collectibles or whatever, thus extending the fun of a game and B) Serve as a nice reminder of the games that you have played and finished. Services like True Achievements and the PS4 also tell you how many players completed a given cheevo or trophy, which can be interesting. I have no problem with achievements.

But Gamerscore attempts to quantify achievements and it does so in a weird way, letting developers assign score (previously based on whether the game was retail or XBLA) regardless of difficulty or length of the game. It was always a dumb idea, since finishing some early 4 hour games would net you a thousand points while other achievements have ridiculous requirements. Microsoft, however, at least tried to compensate for this by assigning different numbers of cheevo points for downloadable games, which at the start of the 360 generation tended to be smaller in scope, if not always easier.

Downloadable games got a lot more complicated as the generation drew on (From 50 Megabyte maximum sizes to 2 gigs or over now, and from Geometry Wars to fully fledged story-based games like Shadow Complex.) Last year Microsoft lifted the points max of XBLA games from 200 to 400, which made sense for a game like CoJ: Gunslinger but maybe not for Brothers or Zuma's Revenge, and on the XBONE all games will just be games (Fair enough, since there's no reason Gunslinger is less of a full fledged 360 game than the old King Kong retail game) but rather than making tailor made achievement amounts (possibly too much work and too many politics) they will all have 1000 total points, which means that Peggle 2 has the same amount of gamerscore in it as Assassin's Creed 4.

This means that score is absolutely meaningless. Why keep it? Is it just a legacy product? Do they think they are still selling games to cheevo hunters? It just seems weird and stupid. Even weirder and stupider when you consider that MS gave away Killer Instinct and even XBONE systems to people with high gamerscore. So the score is meaningless and debased but you can get real world items up to $500 in value for having a high one?

I feel like this is really dumb and Microsoft hasn't caught enough flack for it.

#1 Edited by Humanity (9216 posts) -

Of all things relating to Microsoft these past couple of months, this is what you think they should catch some flack for?

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#2 Edited by BigSocrates (349 posts) -

@humanity said:

Of all things relating to Microsoft these past couple of months, this is what you think they should catch some flack for?

Not JUST this obviously. I think everything else gets a decent amount of attention though.

#3 Edited by GTCknight (695 posts) -

Here are my feelings in picture form (message to mods, let me know if I need to take this pic down).

If I'm being honest while do have my issues with Microsoft (hence, the reason why I want a PS4) I find the idea of whining about the gamerscore system to be rather sad. Now had this been a complaint on the idea of achievements in general you might have had a argument but, only a very small one.

Edit: I do find the idea of ridiculous requirements achievements in games to be rather annoying and a potential problem in games. I also don't wish to come off as to insulting either. I just felt like typing in the same (or at least in similar) way as I normally talk and see if I do come off as a complete ass.

I will also point out as someone below me said; how would you want them to fix it or, at the very least what do you think is the core/source of the issue of it. Get rid of the gamerscore or modify the way they give players the achievement? Then they could possibly let people use their gamerscore to buy things (like a game or a Xbox live Gold).

#4 Posted by thecatswhiskers (44 posts) -

I'm not sure what your point is? Downloadable games should be worth less points than retail? Based on what?

Not criticising, I just don't get your point, or how it devalues gamerscore, assuming it had a value in the first place.

#5 Posted by IIGrayFoxII (304 posts) -

I am not understanding your point as well. Avatar: The Last Airbender and King Kong and other games that gave achievements incredibly easy should be lampooned well before the fact that Xbox arcade games now get the same amount of gamerscore points. So I don't mind that they share the same total score. If they are just as hard to achieve, then what does it matter?

I understand that getting a 1000 points in certain games is a bigger accomplishment than others, I am sure that will apply here. Is it easy to "S" rank Peggle 2?

#6 Posted by MildMolasses (3220 posts) -

Gamerscore was completely devalued in 2008 by the PC version of Fallout 3. The advergames that showed up also didn't do much to make the system meaningful.

#7 Posted by ch3burashka (5069 posts) -

OCD is hard. Meds help.

#8 Posted by BigSocrates (349 posts) -

I'm not sure what your point is? Downloadable games should be worth less points than retail? Based on what?

Not criticising, I just don't get your point, or how it devalues gamerscore, assuming it had a value in the first place.

The original idea was that XBLA games, which were 50 MBs at most, had less content and challenge than retail games so deserved less gamerscore (there was probably also an intent to add incentive to purchasing more expensive retail product.) Thus fewer points. Now there is huge variety across the spectrum, but it means that a standardized gamerscore is a meaningless and silly thing that Microsoft should either take seriously (by having some centralized scoring system for cheevos rather than leaving it up to developers) or abandon altogether (probably the better plan.)

#9 Posted by BRich (436 posts) -

The system has always been meaningless. Still, it gives me certain things to shoot for as I play or replay a game and I enjoy that.

#10 Posted by Vinny_Says (5707 posts) -

So it's basically you against a whole legion of people who are glad XBLA games are finally worth 1000 points instead of 400. Guess who's happier in this context?

Listen kid, I didn't see you make this thread when $40 games where coming out and had 1000 points, so why start now? This is how games are now, notice how even GB got rid of the "best downloadable game" category in their GOTY? All games are created equal now, no more segregation.

#11 Edited by BIGJEFFREY (5021 posts) -

@bigsocrates: They have gotten rid of XBLA on the xone, now every game on the system is a game. Also it's meaningless.

@mildmolasses said:

Gamerscore was completely devalued in 2008 by the PC version of Fallout 3. The advergames that showed up also didn't do much to make the system meaningful.

Doritos Crash Course is sick dawg.

#12 Edited by Trilogy (2653 posts) -

@gtcknight:

Does that picture imply he's sporting a solid hard-on? Cause that's what I'm getting from it.

Gamerscore was completely devalued in 2008 by the PC version of Fallout 3. The advergames that showed up also didn't do much to make the system meaningful.

I remember getting those Fallout GFWL points. Felt sort of lame about it at the time. Was it really any worse than Airbender points, though?

#13 Posted by joshwent (2201 posts) -

It's clear that any individual game should only get 1000 points if we, as the internet, can unanimously agree that it can be defined as a "game". Let's discuss...

#14 Edited by Danteveli (1184 posts) -

Dont get why "smaller" games should give you less points. Game is a game and on xbox360 the xbla achievements were often way harder than the giveaway stuff most retail titles was riddled with.

#15 Posted by GTCknight (695 posts) -

@trilogy: No it means I don't care.

As for context well just watch the show Kill la Kill.

#16 Posted by spraynardtatum (2943 posts) -

I don't know, that's whatever. I'm more upset that you can get an achievement for fucking watching Kevin James movies.

I'm calling it, by the end of the generation you get achievements for putting on Old Spice in front of the Kinect 2.0.

#17 Edited by S3v3nS1ns (46 posts) -

I think it's for the same reason they stopped calling downloadable games arcade games. At the start of last generation early downloadable games like Geometry Wars were always smaller in scope than retail games. But towards the end of last generation we saw games like Telltale's The Walking Dead which could easily of passed as a retail game. There's no longer any need to distinguish between "real" games and "arcade" games. They're all just "games" now and as such get treated with the same standards. Achievement points and all.

I'm just learning about this Fallout 3 thing now, of course after GFWL has been cancelled ='[ And I really enjoyed some Advert Games, Doritos Crash Course was pretty fun, especially trying to get all the gold times.

#18 Edited by chiablo (929 posts) -

Cheap games or downloadable-only titles are not going to be what ruins the sanctity of your gamerscore. I can guarantee you that there are achievements in Peggle 2 that are harder than what you would find in AC4. If it's the price point you're bothered with, this is also nonsense because someone can go to a bargain bin at GameStop and earn 10,000 points on garbage retail games.

If points were worth anything, there would be an independent group assigning point values to achievements based on how difficult it is to achieve. Crap like this would not happen:

#19 Edited by pweidman (2333 posts) -

Meh...achieves give many people a reason to replay games and see every bit of game content. Serves a purpose for game developers as well as gamers.They're there to add a bit of extra motivation and that's what they do. They also indicate how much someone played or perhaps really liked a certain game. I look at them to find common ground and opportunities to play with friends.

More points now for small games is a total non-issue for me.

Achievements for watching shows, movies, or using an app is a whole other story. But those don't add to Gamerscore at least as far as I know.

#20 Edited by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -

I stopped caring about achievements once I hit 50k. That was my goal and I hit and since then they do nothing for me.

I just noticed this year how there is no separate category for 'downloadable'/'download-only'/'you know what we mean' game. Which makes sense, the only game on my list that I purchased a disc for was GTA5. Is Rogue Legacy at 15 different from Enemy Within at 30 different from Dragon's Crown at 40 different from DmC at 60?

#21 Posted by Demoskinos (14823 posts) -

I hate to inform you of this good sir but gamerscore has always been meaningless. So im not sure what your even mad about.

#22 Posted by Karkarov (3102 posts) -

Yeah I hate to say it but your title is right when it says "more meaningless than it already was" as in, it has always been meaningless. I know one dude with a massive gamer score who brags about it, why is his score so high? Cause he worked at a rental store, rented all the games free (even the shitty ones), got all the easy achievements that only took a couple hours, and sent the game back. Wooooooo massive envy bro! Dude hadn't even beaten 15% of the games on his played list.

#23 Posted by agentboolen (1783 posts) -

@bigsocrates: ehhh I'm o.k. with it being left up to the developer. In most cross platform games the achievement system has remained the same most of the times, no matter it be for Xbox 360, PS3 or Steam. And yes it does seem the price of the game can sometimes dictate the amount of achievement points, that might not be totally right but at the same time can you really make this a fair thing. Sure you can judge it by the amount of hours a game can be completed, and that might be the most fair way of doing it, but in the end whos to say it is the most fair. Should harder type games be rewarded more points then?

The total score really isn't impressive its more of how many games you have 100% in my book at this point, maybe this needs to be a option on the gamerscore to really make certain people stand out, instead of it being a who bought more video games kinda thing.

Yes the fact is rules can be applied to make it a more fair system.... And yea I'm pissed my 40000 points didn't net me a new Xbox One I mean shit I've got just shy of more then 200 games in my achievement collection score, and no Xbox One at my home.

#24 Posted by Yadilie (380 posts) -

Peculiar how something like this is popping up. Usually have to deal with the annoyance of 'No Plat no buy' from a Trophy site I go to. Gamerscore always had the issue of not being able to tell how many base games a person had completed without digging super deep. Someone could have a Gamerscore of 100,000 but only finished a couple games. Just picking up the super easy ones.

#25 Posted by Hunkulese (2723 posts) -

Uplay points are more important than your gamerscore because at least you get stuff. It's always been a meaningless number that only matters if you have a specific friend to compete against.

#26 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5467 posts) -

Oh noes.

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#27 Posted by CircleNine (381 posts) -

I literally cannot believe that in the year of our lord two thousand and thirteen that people still care about gamer scores and trophies. I also couldn't believe the hubbub surrounding them when Fallout 3 let people cheat for them on PC for XBL accounts.

#28 Edited by Sterling (2276 posts) -

I'll care when they let me use the gamerscore as a currency to buy things. Until then, no fucks will be given. Also trophies are better.

#29 Edited by GrantHeaslip (1592 posts) -

My drive to get trophies and achievements is more about the completion percentage of specific games than my overall score. I also appreciate the added layer of structure and incentives to vary my play style that good achievement design can facilitate. I'll usually look at the list and decide ahead of time which achievements are worth concerning myself with.

I think the people obsessed with S-ranking games end up ruining their experiences at the expense of a meaningless score, but at the same time, the people aggressively dismissive of them are missing some of their positive incentives.

The overall score hasn't ever really mattered. Very early on, there were weird movie-tie in games (some of them budget) that people were playing exclusively for score, and there were 360 games in the bargain bin pretty easy into its lifespan. Making every game 1000 points seems like the obvious choice considering the simple "$60 retail vs. $5-10 downloadable" distinction has all but evaporated. Angry Birds Star Wars is $60, Peggle 2 is $12, and Crimson Dragon is $20 with microtransactions. They're giving away 1000-gamerscore games to Gold members. How would one even begin to try to attribute a rational Gamerscore value to anything at this point?

#30 Posted by MildMolasses (3220 posts) -

@bigjeffrey: Crash Course and Dash of Destruction were alright. Yaris can eat a dick, though.

@trilogy said:
@mildmolasses said:

Gamerscore was completely devalued in 2008 by the PC version of Fallout 3. The advergames that showed up also didn't do much to make the system meaningful.

I remember getting those Fallout GFWL points. Felt sort of lame about it at the time. Was it really any worse than Airbender points, though?

Hard to say. I actually had to play some of Avatar to get those points. I didn't need to actually play any of F3

#31 Posted by big_jon (5726 posts) -

I sort of agree, their l lack of distinction between arcade titles and retail releases is pretty bad in general. Games are games, that however does not mean that there should not be a way to make make a price distinction easily.

#32 Edited by jakob187 (21670 posts) -

@mildmolasses said:

Gamerscore was completely devalued in 2008 by the PC version of Fallout 3. The advergames that showed up also didn't do much to make the system meaningful.

You're talking bad about Dash of Destruction. Thems fightin' words. That game was fucking rad.

#33 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@humanity said:

Of all things relating to Microsoft these past couple of months, this is what you think they should catch some flack for?

This

#34 Posted by StarFoxA (5157 posts) -

Spoiler: Gamerscore has always been meaningless.

#35 Posted by dionysis (51 posts) -

Personally I think it's a great change that doesn't really do anything at all to the "value" of gamer score. Gamer score is more of an aggregate "usage" metric than anything else. There is no direct correlation to hours played or games completed or gamer "skill" or anything of that sort... but in aggregate a higher number is indicative of higher use. To that end, it makes sense for MS to do the random giveaways and such to their biggest fans as those people will often tend to be "taste makers" within their circles of friends. I personally don't have a high gamer score as I don't always have much time for gaming and split my free time among a lot of interests, but I can certainly see why MS would be interested in "incentivizing" gamer score and I wouldn't begrudge the winners of these giveaways their marketing freebies...

I'm not any kind of achievement hunter, but I really like the way achievements, trophies, and that sort of thing gives designers the ability to easily add fun twists to their games and encourage a more complete experience of what the game can offer. Things like the Pacifism achievement in Geometry Wars was terrific and almost added a new mode to the game with a single "try it this way" sort of achievement. The "kills with X type of weapon" can encourage players to change up their play style. I'm really liking some of the achievements in Dead Rising that offer little in game digital "trophy" items. And then there's silly stuff that is just fun... like the various president mask achievements in Payday 2.. "place doctor bags wearing an Obama mask"... that kind of thing... it has no value but does add some fun or some humor and wouldn't have been something I necessarily thought of doing without the little +X point achievement listed in the achievements list.

I think it's great that the downloadable and indie games will have the same points to work with as any other title particularly since it seems like some of the most creative and fun achievements came from the downloadable games. The points serve the exact same (and completely imprecise) purpose they always have.

#36 Posted by DonPixel (2585 posts) -

I don't understand any of this, thou god knows I tried.

#37 Posted by Rafaelfc (1346 posts) -

Just wait until games have trophies/achievements that unlock when you spend real cash in-game to buy some microtransaction bullshit.

#38 Posted by carlthenimrod (1594 posts) -

GS is just an indication of how many games you played overall at a glance.

I hit the 175k mark this week and I never understood why people get butt hurt over it. The whole achievement system is really just a fun way of archiving your gaming history and comparing with people.

#39 Posted by MormonWarrior (2590 posts) -

I never cared about the point value, per se. I still care about game completion if I care about the game. I really miss Giant Bomb's stat tracking.

I just got annoyed when my points weren't divisible by 5. That's the only thing.

#40 Posted by Spongetwan (202 posts) -

I have no problem with it. I like getting achievements for everything I do. If you have a high gamers core you do a lot on the system.

#41 Edited by JCole360 (25 posts) -

this might be the dumbest thing to whine about it, WOW. Since i'm here i guess i'll contribute. I personally think that if MS added that rare system that Sony has but also apply it to total GS. So let's say you are at 5,000GS and below you would be a common and however the numbers bare-out you would be placed accordingly. They don't need some massive overhaul just take a page out of Sony's book, Hell take the book back that you and Sony switched somewhere along the way!

#42 Posted by reed32 (13 posts) -

Yeah I don't have a vested interest in raising my GS in a competitive manner. To me achievements are really about scores for individual games. It's a tracker for 100% of a game, GS is just a catalogue where the scores for games collectively live.

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