Turn 10: Cloud allows for 600% bump in Forza A.I.

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#151 Edited by EnemaEms (155 posts) -

@isomeri: you are correct, but do you think that will stop people from buying it? In 2010, only half of the 40 million 360's sold to date were on Live. That was three years ago. Last time I checked, 20 million is a lot.

#152 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@extomar said:

There is nothing or particularly XBox One centric about Azure. You could write apps to run on Azure around 2009~ although I'm a little fuzzy on when it was first available (I just don't remember). There is nothing stopping someone from making a cross platform game using Microsoft Azure as their server side tech any more than it would stop someone from AWS or rolling their own.

I think you have it backwards.

When it comes to distributed processing between the two, there is Azure-centric tech built in the Xbox One. From the DMEz equipped with LZ encode and decode that can operate independently of system resources and transfer net code in and out with access straight to the eSRAM, to the operating systems built into the X1, to Azure's world-wide data center strategically placed to offer sub 100ms pings to anyone in the X1's market, it's what's going to make it practical and applicable. MS designed both the virtual development platform of Azure, as well as the operating system and Hypervisor of the Xbox One. And as far as what MS has done on Azure's end, well I don't think any of us are qualified one way or another to say whether or not they have built specific software into Azure's development platform that makes it easy for the X1's hardware to connect to it. It wouldn't be that hard for them to do so, and if I was a betting man, I would be that they did update their software on Azure's end as well. And I would also bet they are offering software development tools that make it easier for developers to connect the two.

Look, anyone can use Azure. I can access it with my laptop. I can use it as a render farm if I want. You can as well. Use it to run apps. Whatever. They even offer a free 1 month trial. However, using Azure as a traditional server, or in the case of games, a streaming cloud service, and and hybrid distributed computing network between a console and a server to run video game code are two different things.

Plugging up to a server and using it to stream down results for an app is easy, relatively speaking. That part has been done before, and OnLive and Gaikai has been doing it for some time now. But synchronizing a console in your living room to work in tandem with a server, split the local code, transfer it and manage resources on both ends running in real time, and re-synchronize it when it gets it back, to process the same video game code, and render it locally, is not the same thing.

In one case you are replacing your local hardware in exchange for the server, and simply using it as a viewing device with a controller attached to it. All your local hardware is being used for is for input in a controller, and for streaming down a video stream. In the X1's case, it's designed to take advantage all the hardware in the box in addition to server-side processing for specific tasks. In one case you are using the server to process code, all the code. In the other you are splitting the code, and using both.

So while you may be able to plug any device into a streaming cloud service, you can't just as easily plug in any device and get distributed computing between the two. That requires additional steps and in our context it does actually help quite a bit if you design an always-connected console with hardware and software inside to make this practical.

#153 Edited by EXTomar (4507 posts) -

I'm sorry to write this and I really don't hate (or care) about you alexglass but what you are writing is nonsense and GIBBERISH. You have no idea what you are writing about. You probably haven't written or design anything on distributed systems let alone "the cloud" or you wouldn't bother writing a lot of that nonsense.

I'll give you a hint: As I have written many many many many times before, this technology has been in use for a decade with clients from the smallest mobile to largest enterprise systems for longer than the XBox One will even exist. No one talks about how "my software runs 600% on phone/tablet/PC because of the cloud".

#154 Posted by flippyandnod (370 posts) -

Heh, that's almost the same thing I was going to post but I said "gobbledygook" instead. He's practically made word salad up there.

In the end, it's rather pointless, if he believes what he said amounts to an actual argument, he probably isn't terribly open to other points of view.

This comment brought to you straight from eSDRAM!

@extomar said:

I'm sorry to write this and I really don't hate (or care) about you alexglass but what you are writing is nonsense and GIBBERISH.

#155 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3800 posts) -

@flippyandnod: @extomar: Ok...but as someone who really doesn't have any insight into this sorta thing, why is he wrong? I'm not saying he's right or he isn't or that you guys are or aren't right, but he seems to have a lot of points to back up his argument. You say he's making up a bunch of nonsense but you haven't really backed up why it's nonsense. To a dummy like myself it's not too convincing.

#156 Edited by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@extomar said:

I'm sorry to write this and I really don't hate (or care) about you alexglass but what you are writing is nonsense and GIBBERISH. You have no idea what you are writing about. You probably haven't written or design anything on distributed systems let alone "the cloud" or you wouldn't bother writing a lot of that nonsense.

I'll give you a hint: As I have written many many many many times before, this technology has been in use for a decade with clients from the smallest mobile to largest enterprise systems for longer than the XBox One will even exist. No one talks about how "my software runs 600% on phone/tablet/PC because of the cloud".

I have the same opinion about you. Nothing but gibberish and confused arguments, except in your case, you have not made a single viable point backed up by any facts, proof, or logical argument.

For someone who claims you write programs you seem to have absolutely no idea how Azure will work in conjunction with the X1, not to mention, have a hard time even understanding the premise or original point of the article. Ray-tracing has been in existence for decades too, but there isn't a single console game that can actually use it as a lighting engine.

And since you are making boastful claims, I want to know what program you wrote that actually uses a client-server distributed network. Not something that runs on a server, and streams it to a tablet, but that actually uses both the local hardware and server for real time processing, then performs frame synchronization prior to the final steps of the rendering pipeline which takes place on local hardware. Please share it with us.

PS: I've also networked desktops in my home too and used them for rendering, I just don't go around using that and boasting on gaming forums that I have been writing code for Nvidia's Cloudlight for a decade and that it's nothing new...I'm willing to bet you haven't actually ever worked on anything like this. If you have, show it. Otherwise no one here should ever actually take your dismissive posts, backed up by nothing, seriously.

#157 Edited by Hailinel (23941 posts) -

@extomar said:

I'm sorry to write this and I really don't hate (or care) about you alexglass but what you are writing is nonsense and GIBBERISH. You have no idea what you are writing about. You probably haven't written or design anything on distributed systems let alone "the cloud" or you wouldn't bother writing a lot of that nonsense.

I'll give you a hint: As I have written many many many many times before, this technology has been in use for a decade with clients from the smallest mobile to largest enterprise systems for longer than the XBox One will even exist. No one talks about how "my software runs 600% on phone/tablet/PC because of the cloud".

I have the same opinion about you. Nothing but gibberish and confused arguments, except in your case, you have not made a single viable point backed up by any facts, proof, or logical argument.

For someone who claims you write programs you seem to have absolutely no idea how Azure will work in conjunction with the X1, not to mention, have a hard time even understanding the premise or original point of the article. Ray-tracing has been in existence for decades too, but there isn't a single console game that can actually use it as a lighting engine.

And since you are making boastful claims, I want to know what program you wrote that actually uses a client-server distributed network. Not something that runs on a server, and streams it to a tablet, but that actually uses both the local hardware and server for real time processing, then performs frame synchronization prior to the final steps of the rendering pipeline which takes place on local hardware. Please share it with us.

He doesn't need to have created such a program to understand the realities of how the cloud actually works. In all honesty, you're spewing pie-in-the-sky jargon that is meaningless to anyone that actually knows better and are only getting angry when people call that out.

#158 Edited by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexglass said:

@extomar said:

I'm sorry to write this and I really don't hate (or care) about you alexglass but what you are writing is nonsense and GIBBERISH. You have no idea what you are writing about. You probably haven't written or design anything on distributed systems let alone "the cloud" or you wouldn't bother writing a lot of that nonsense.

I'll give you a hint: As I have written many many many many times before, this technology has been in use for a decade with clients from the smallest mobile to largest enterprise systems for longer than the XBox One will even exist. No one talks about how "my software runs 600% on phone/tablet/PC because of the cloud".

I have the same opinion about you. Nothing but gibberish and confused arguments, except in your case, you have not made a single viable point backed up by any facts, proof, or logical argument.

For someone who claims you write programs you seem to have absolutely no idea how Azure will work in conjunction with the X1, not to mention, have a hard time even understanding the premise or original point of the article. Ray-tracing has been in existence for decades too, but there isn't a single console game that can actually use it as a lighting engine.

And since you are making boastful claims, I want to know what program you wrote that actually uses a client-server distributed network. Not something that runs on a server, and streams it to a tablet, but that actually uses both the local hardware and server for real time processing, then performs frame synchronization prior to the final steps of the rendering pipeline which takes place on local hardware. Please share it with us.

He doesn't need to have created such a program to understand the realities of how the cloud actually works. In all honesty, you're spewing pie-in-the-sky jargon that is meaningless to anyone that actually knows better and are only getting angry when people call that out.

Which is the problem because from his comments it's obvious he doesn't even understand the realities of the cloud in this case. Who knows better and where are the qualifications? I backed it up. And if you actually have a rebuttal, then it needs to be backed up by something more than "I know better, you're wrong, because I do some programming".

Anyone of us can make claims that we're programmers with knowledge on an internet forum. You still have to show something to back up your talk. Point out a logical statement, or an inaccuracy, and dispute it. Making an empty statement doesn't amount to anything.

#159 Edited by Hailinel (23941 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexglass said:

@extomar said:

I'm sorry to write this and I really don't hate (or care) about you alexglass but what you are writing is nonsense and GIBBERISH. You have no idea what you are writing about. You probably haven't written or design anything on distributed systems let alone "the cloud" or you wouldn't bother writing a lot of that nonsense.

I'll give you a hint: As I have written many many many many times before, this technology has been in use for a decade with clients from the smallest mobile to largest enterprise systems for longer than the XBox One will even exist. No one talks about how "my software runs 600% on phone/tablet/PC because of the cloud".

I have the same opinion about you. Nothing but gibberish and confused arguments, except in your case, you have not made a single viable point backed up by any facts, proof, or logical argument.

For someone who claims you write programs you seem to have absolutely no idea how Azure will work in conjunction with the X1, not to mention, have a hard time even understanding the premise or original point of the article. Ray-tracing has been in existence for decades too, but there isn't a single console game that can actually use it as a lighting engine.

And since you are making boastful claims, I want to know what program you wrote that actually uses a client-server distributed network. Not something that runs on a server, and streams it to a tablet, but that actually uses both the local hardware and server for real time processing, then performs frame synchronization prior to the final steps of the rendering pipeline which takes place on local hardware. Please share it with us.

He doesn't need to have created such a program to understand the realities of how the cloud actually works. In all honesty, you're spewing pie-in-the-sky jargon that is meaningless to anyone that actually knows better and are only getting angry when people call that out.

Which is the problem because from his comments it's obvious he doesn't even understand the realities of the cloud in this case. Who knows better and where are the qualifications? I backed it up. And if you actually have a rebuttal, then it needs to be backed up by something more than "I know better, you're wrong, because I do some programming".

You didn't back it up with anything convincing, I can tell you that much.

#160 Edited by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexglass said:

@hailinel said:

@alexglass said:

@extomar said:

I'm sorry to write this and I really don't hate (or care) about you alexglass but what you are writing is nonsense and GIBBERISH. You have no idea what you are writing about. You probably haven't written or design anything on distributed systems let alone "the cloud" or you wouldn't bother writing a lot of that nonsense.

I'll give you a hint: As I have written many many many many times before, this technology has been in use for a decade with clients from the smallest mobile to largest enterprise systems for longer than the XBox One will even exist. No one talks about how "my software runs 600% on phone/tablet/PC because of the cloud".

I have the same opinion about you. Nothing but gibberish and confused arguments, except in your case, you have not made a single viable point backed up by any facts, proof, or logical argument.

For someone who claims you write programs you seem to have absolutely no idea how Azure will work in conjunction with the X1, not to mention, have a hard time even understanding the premise or original point of the article. Ray-tracing has been in existence for decades too, but there isn't a single console game that can actually use it as a lighting engine.

And since you are making boastful claims, I want to know what program you wrote that actually uses a client-server distributed network. Not something that runs on a server, and streams it to a tablet, but that actually uses both the local hardware and server for real time processing, then performs frame synchronization prior to the final steps of the rendering pipeline which takes place on local hardware. Please share it with us.

He doesn't need to have created such a program to understand the realities of how the cloud actually works. In all honesty, you're spewing pie-in-the-sky jargon that is meaningless to anyone that actually knows better and are only getting angry when people call that out.

Which is the problem because from his comments it's obvious he doesn't even understand the realities of the cloud in this case. Who knows better and where are the qualifications? I backed it up. And if you actually have a rebuttal, then it needs to be backed up by something more than "I know better, you're wrong, because I do some programming".

You didn't back it up with anything convincing, I can tell you that much.

Whatever you consider convincing is up to you. Not even sure what specific parts you are referring to. If there's something you have an issue with, point it out.

Usually in an argument or discussion people start with..."no this part is wrong...and then offer some sort of rebuttal".

#161 Posted by flippyandnod (370 posts) -

He mentions a lot of hardware things which are irrelevant. The SRAM will not be used for networking, because the performance difference would be wasted on a process which involves sending data through your network connection which involves an upstream speed which averages about 2mbps across their customer base.

He speaks of LZ (Lempel-Ziv) encoding and decoding as if it mattered, the amount of data sent is small enough that the LZ work is peanuts for a processor like this.

"transfer net code in and out" doesn't make any sense at all. The communications will be of data, not code. You send the data up, it gets processed (in his theory) and sent back.

I don't even know what a DMEz is. Google doesn't either. And he speaks of direct to the operating system built into the X1, when the data goes to the app (game). Sending it to the operating systems doesn't accomplish anything, it's an extra step. It likely happens, but why brag about it?

Then he talks about 100ms pings, even though the point was any system can use Azure. And if Azure is 100ms from your Xbox One, it's also 100ms from your PS4 too. And your iPhone. Making Azure a better cloud service makes it a better cloud service for everyone, pings don't discriminate.

He's just stringing together buzzwords without even knowing how these systems would really interact.

I'm sure MS has a good dev environment for using Azure. That will help developers use it. But in the end, the principles are the same. In order to use Azure, you have to separate your games into things which are latency sensitive and latency (player input to result) insensitive. For things that are latency insensitive that get better with lost of CPU, they can farm them out to Azure, although they may have to have to have a backup plan in case you are offline. Many many things will be highly latency sensitive or don't need more CPU resources, and those things will be unaltered no matter what MS can offer with Azure.

I really don't think 600% more CPU power and increased latency will make computer AIs better in Forza.

#162 Edited by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@flippyandnod said:

He mentions a lot of hardware things which are irrelevant. The SRAM will not be used for networking, because the performance difference would be wasted on a process which involves sending data through your network connection which involves an upstream speed which averages about 2mbps across their customer base.

He speaks of LZ (Lempel-Ziv) encoding and decoding as if it mattered, the amount of data sent is small enough that the LZ work is peanuts for a processor like this.

"transfer net code in and out" doesn't make any sense at all. The communications will be of data, not code. You send the data up, it gets processed (in his theory) and sent back.

I don't even know what a DMEz is. Google doesn't either. And he speaks of direct to the operating system built into the X1, when the data goes to the app (game). Sending it to the operating systems doesn't accomplish anything, it's an extra step. It likely happens, but why brag about it?

Then he talks about 100ms pings, even though the point was any system can use Azure. And if Azure is 100ms from your Xbox One, it's also 100ms from your PS4 too. And your iPhone. Making Azure a better cloud service makes it a better cloud service for everyone, pings don't discriminate.

He's just stringing together buzzwords without even knowing how these systems would really interact.

I'm sure MS has a good dev environment for using Azure. That will help developers use it. But in the end, the principles are the same. In order to use Azure, you have to separate your games into things which are latency sensitive and latency (player input to result) insensitive. For things that are latency insensitive that get better with lost of CPU, they can farm them out to Azure, although they may have to have to have a backup plan in case you are offline. Many many things will be highly latency sensitive or don't need more CPU resources, and those things will be unaltered no matter what MS can offer with Azure.

I really don't think 600% more CPU power and increased latency will make computer AIs better in Forza.

Code is data. Data is code. You're picking on choice words, doesn't really add much to your argument.

Ok, so it sounds like you need to do more research, because DME, data move engines, are actually perfectly capable of compressing and sending code to and from a network, in this case Azure, then dumped off straight into eSRAM. They can operate independently of the rest of the hardware, which makes them a great candidate for handling server processed tasks. Irrelevant?

The operating systems, in this case a Hypervisor, have to be built to communicate with two different machines miles apart, if you plan on designing code that operates over multiple machines, in this case a local box and a server. How else do you plan on managing the resources between the two? The X1 has a hypervisor built into it, as does Azure. It's NOT a coincidence. Irrelevant?

Sony bought Gaikai and plans on using Azure? Interesting...And the fact that even TitanFall developers are saying the PC version won't have the same functionality that the Xbox One version makes you feel confident to claim that Azure-based games will be available for the PS4 too?

What else did they equip the PS4 with in order to handle all the processes that would require splitting code, transferring code to and from a server, and leverage Azure to do real time server-side processing? How does their console which by their own admission "was never designed to be an always connected console", make an always-connected process possible?

#163 Edited by flippyandnod (370 posts) -

The words matter because the point is you don't know what you are talking about. You are mixing words in nonsensical combinations because you don't know what they mean or how the systems work. No one who knew what they were talking about would talk about sending code and say that means data, because while all code is data, not all data is code!

Data move engines? You mean DMA (Direct memory access). Wow, you're falling for marketing junk. Yes, DMA lets you move data without the CPU moving it, but it isn't independent of everything else, the systems do have to share a bus and both the CPU and DMA engine cannot use the bus at the same time. And once the data gets into your system, it will still be processed again, the DMA will just deliver the packets (as it does on every 100mbit and gigabit-capable ethernet interface, including PS3s), they still have to be interpreted by the CPU, including by your app.

Nearly every machine uses DMA. A $10 SoC will have DMA engines in it. PS3 Cell has a sophisticated DMA engine (google for docs if you want). You really think the Xbox One having them provides any kind of advantage?

The hypervisor does not have anything to do with Azure. For that matter, neither does the OS. The OS manages resources on your machine. The hypervisor lets the system virtualize the hardware so that the machine can run two OSes at once. Neither the hypervisor nor OS tracks resources between Azure and your machine. Your app (game) has to do that.

Azure uses virtualization. So does Xbox One, that's why both have hypervisors. But neither has to have one if it doesn't want to virtualize. MS uses virtualization on Azure for their convenience, it makes administration a LOT simpler. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server)

I didn't say Sony planned on using Azure. I said any device can use Azure. If (say) Ubisoft or Respawn wanted to use Azure on a PS4 game, an iPhone game or a 3DS game they could do so. Ubi already has their own online services I have to log into to play FarCry 3. That could be on Azure for all we know. MS sure would be thrilled. They want more Azure customers because they make money selling Azure services, they're not going to turn a customer down just because their client runs on competing hardware.

We'll just have to see what Respawn offers. If Azure is used for more than matchmaking and the ability to spawn groups of virtual dedicated servers (something they already hinted that they will be doing) I'll be surprised.

You are severely confused about what an "always connected console" means. It means it must always be connected. Anything that is always connected must be always connected. Anything that isn't always connected can be connected whenever you want, including always if that's what you want. Note, Xbox One is no longer an always connected console either.

PS4 probably isn't equipped with much to facilitate cloud services other than a good ethernet and WiFi interface. Luckily, this is all you need. Hell, I watch Netflix from the cloud on my iPad, Android and linux boxes and none of those have any special cloud hardware in them. You really think you need something special to communicate with the internet when a $35 Chromecast does it well enough to move 1080p video?

#164 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

The words matter because the point is you don't know what you are talking about. You are mixing words in nonsensical combinations because you don't know what they mean or how the systems work. No one who knew what they were talking about would talk about sending code and say that means data, because while all code is data, not all data is code!

Data move engines? You mean DMA (Direct memory access). Wow, you're falling for marketing junk. Yes, DMA lets you move data without the CPU moving it, but it isn't independent of everything else, the systems do have to share a bus and both the CPU and DMA engine cannot use the bus at the same time. And once the data gets into your system, it will still be processed again, the DMA will just deliver the packets (as it does on every 100mbit and gigabit-capable ethernet interface, including PS3s), they still have to be interpreted by the CPU, including by your app.

Nearly every machine uses DMA. A $10 SoC will have DMA engines in it. PS3 Cell has a sophisticated DMA engine (google for docs if you want). You really think the Xbox One having them provides any kind of advantage?

The hypervisor does not have anything to do with Azure. For that matter, neither does the OS. The OS manages resources on your machine. The hypervisor lets the system virtualize the hardware so that the machine can run two OSes at once. Neither the hypervisor nor OS tracks resources between Azure and your machine. Your app (game) has to do that.

Azure uses virtualization. So does Xbox One, that's why both have hypervisors. But neither has to have one if it doesn't want to virtualize. MS uses virtualization on Azure for their convenience, it makes administration a LOT simpler. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server)

I didn't say Sony planned on using Azure. I said any device can use Azure. If (say) Ubisoft or Respawn wanted to use Azure on a PS4 game, an iPhone game or a 3DS game they could do so. Ubi already has their own online services I have to log into to play FarCry 3. That could be on Azure for all we know. MS sure would be thrilled. They want more Azure customers because they make money selling Azure services, they're not going to turn a customer down just because their client runs on competing hardware.

We'll just have to see what Respawn offers. If Azure is used for more than matchmaking and the ability to spawn groups of virtual dedicated servers (something they already hinted that they will be doing) I'll be surprised.

You are severely confused about what an "always connected console" means. It means it must always be connected. Anything that is always connected must be always connected. Anything that isn't always connected can be connected whenever you want, including always if that's what you want. Note, Xbox One is no longer an always connected console either.

PS4 probably isn't equipped with much to facilitate cloud services other than a good ethernet and WiFi interface. Luckily, this is all you need. Hell, I watch Netflix from the cloud on my iPad, Android and linux boxes and none of those have any special cloud hardware in them. You really think you need something special to communicate with the internet when a $35 Chromecast does it well enough to move 1080p video?

I think everyone understands we're talking about sending code to a server and back. Not sure why someone as intelligent as you doesn't. And while we're harping on terms, no I mean Data Move Engines, since that's what they're called. You're also comparing PS3's DMA and Cell with the X1s DMEs. No idea why when the conversation is about the PS4 which doesn't use Cell architecture. I'm not entirely sure what it is you're trying to dispute here. And in the case of the X1, the data resulting from the server, depending on what it is, doesn't actually have to be interpreted by the CPU. The results can be sent off to to the GPU to be rendered straight from the eSRAM. Which is why the X1 has the capability of offloading CPU code to the server, while simultaneously taking advantage of its CPU.

Speaking of gibberish, your post is filled with it. You went out of a way to try to claim a Hypervisor doesn't do what I said then turned around and said it does exactly what I said it does. That's right it creates a virtual platform for developers to make games on. That virtual platform will be used to access both the Azure and X1 hardware. And the biggest benefit of it all, is that developers WON'T have to design or write applications, or operating systems, that does this if they decide to make a game that takes advantage of server-side processing. One of the main reasons why this isn't likely to happen in any significant way on the PS4. The other being your wishful thinking assumptions.

You're extremely confused in that you can plug in any device into the internet and get distributed computing between client and server, without actually designing the hardware and software to make it work. Developers will just clap their hands and get all the software and development tools they need to standardize this processing between the PS4 and apparently Azure....

You seem to be very confused that a streaming cloud service is all the X1 is doing and the PS4 can simply replicated if developers just buy the servers from Azure and apply it just like your iPhone can. Wishful thinking on your end that UBI is going to purchase Azure servers from MS at a discounted price they're being offered for X1 games to run the PS4 counterparts as well as developing all the code necessary to make it all work. Keep holding your breath on this one.

And finally, the X1 is NOT using Azure for streaming games or, better said, video. Which is all a cloud streaming service is and requires. A device with the ability to stream video over the internet. It won't be like your tablet. Your tablet isn't doing this. Neither is your iPhone. And neither will the PS4. Learn the difference, because so far you have proved you haven't even grasped that basic difference yet and are sitting here making yourself look like a fool harping on terms while failing to even understand the basic concept.

The PS4 is equipped to run the OnLive App. Unfortunately that's not going to give it similar functionality to what the X1 and Azure is doing.

PS: One more thing, you really need to understand what dedicated servers are, and the fact that Azure is anything but. Which is what makes it cheap. Dedicated servers are dedicated servers to run A game or a company's line of games. That's why they are not practical because once that game is old, or the user base drops, or there's no subscriptions coming in, they get shut down. Azure isn't a 'dedicated server'. It's the exact opposite, fully scalable to run any application, or in this case, any game, across the entire Xbox Live user base. So in 5 years when there's only a handful of people still playing TitanFall, Azure can still spin up a couple of servers for those handful of people, while everyone else have moved on to the next big thing.

#165 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

THE CLOUD.

#166 Posted by flippyandnod (370 posts) -

You are using the term DMEs this is a marketing term. What they are is DMA engines. And again, no we aren't talking about sending code to a server and back. You send data to a server and back. You can send code, but there is no reason to do so in this case. Any code you need the server to have it will already have when it was provisioned by MS. And code you need the client to have it will already have from the game or patches.

You can say the comparison is to PS4, but it's not. I am comparing the Xbox One to many other consoles and computers. Not just PS4. By talking about PS3 and $10 SoCs, I was pointing out the thing you fooled yourself into thinking was something special is not, and that many other devices have it. Nearly all other devices have it.

Yes, the data received has to be interpreted by the CPU. It's going to transform it, or at the least stuff it into the graphics pipeline. Every byte of data will be handled by the CPU at some point, the only real question is how many times. The answer will most certainly be many times. Every byte of received data will be handled by the CPU many times between receipt and any rendering that results form it. Heck, most data will be sent over in a neutral format like JSON or XML!

If you think I said a hypervisor said what you think it does you have horrible, horrible, reading comprehension. A hypervisor works on a single machine. It does not have anything to do with the cloud, which is communications across the net.

It is possible that a virtual Xbox One could be created on a VPS. But they won't be. There is no reason to do so. Virtualizing the same hardware doesn't make sense when VPSes never simulate machines with significant graphics ability because there is no place to send it.

Yes, developers will have to write applications which know they are communicating across the network. There is nothing Azure or any VPS can do to hide the latency incurred with communications across the net. Games will have to be designed to deal with (hide) this latency. See paper here:

http://www.stuartcheshire.org/papers/LatencyQuest.html

You are a fool if you think you need special hardware to access the internet and use it for processing. I am writing this post to you right now on a machine which is accessing the internet and storing data and fetching it. And with no special hardware. You just have no clue at all on this front. None at all. And yes, I am certain Ubi buys VPS services already. And they access them from current consoles and will access them from future consoles. So they don't have to find the code under a rock, they already had their engineers write it. Do they use Azure? I don't know, but there's no reason they couldn't. But it doesn't matter if they do, there is nothing special about Azure that Ubi would need to switch to to get.

I didn't say Azure would be used for streaming games. It could be. Any VPS can be.

The PS4 has the full ability to use what Azure offers. All Azure is is a VPS. You only need to be able to communicate using IP (TCP/IP usually) to utilize Azure. That's why your phone can use it, your PS3, your Xbox 360, your 3DS, your Chromecast.

As to knowing what dedicated servers are, I said "virtual dedicated servers", so your idea that somehow I'm confused is just your own error. You even quoted what I said.

You really are looking foolish here. Respawn will spin up virtual dedicated servers as needed near to where people are playing and take them down when no one is using them. They will use Azure to do this. But this is nothing new, sites like Giantbomb, reddit or Amazon use VPSes to create new virtual hosts when their servers get loaded up. Amazon EC2 is the most popular (and the one Giantbomb uses), Microsoft created Azure and is trying to increase their foothold in the market. I'm glad Respawn will be do it, but they will have no advantage on this front, because companies have been doing it for some time now.

#167 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

You are using the term DMEs this is a marketing term. What they are is DMA engines. And again, no we aren't talking about sending code to a server and back. You send data to a server and back. You can send code, but there is no reason to do so in this case. Any code you need the server to have it will already have when it was provisioned by MS. And code you need the client to have it will already have from the game or patches.

You can say the comparison is to PS4, but it's not. I am comparing the Xbox Ovne to many other consoles and computers. Not just PS4. By talking about PS3 and $10 SoCs, I was pointing out the thing you fooled yourself into thinking was something special is not, and that many other devices have it. Nearly all other devices hae it.

Yes, the data received has to be interpreted by the CPU. It's going to transform it, or at the least stuff it into the graphics pipeline. Every byte of data will be handled by the CPU at some point, the only real question is how many times. The answer will most certainly be many times. Every byte of received data will be handled by the CPU many times between receipt and any rendering that results form it. Heck, most data will be sent over in a neutral format like JSON or XML!

If you think I said a hypervisor said what you think it does you have horrible, horrible, reading comprehension. A hypervisor works on a single machine. It does not have anything to do with the cloud, which is communications across the net.

It is possible that a virtual Xbox One could be created on a VPS. But they won't be. There is no reason to do so. Virtualizing the same hardware doesn't make sense when VPSes never simulate machines with significant graphics ability because there is no place to send it.

Yes, developers will have to write applications which know they are communicating across the network. There is nothing Azure or any VPS can do to hide the latency incurred with communications across the net. Games will have to be designed to deal with (hide) this latency. See paper here:

http://www.stuartcheshire.org/papers/LatencyQuest.html

You are a fool if you think you need special hardware to access the internet and use it for processing. I am writing this post to you right now on a machine which is accessing the internet and storing data and fetching it. And with no special hardware. You just have no clue at all on this front. None at all. And yes, I am certain Ubi buys VPS services already. And they access them from current consoles and will access them from future consoles. So they don't have to find the code under a rock, they already had their engineers write it. Do they use Azure? I don't know, but there's no reason they couldn't. But it doesn't matter if they do, there is nothing special about Azure that Ubi would need to switch to to get.

I didn't say Azure would be used for streaming games. It could be. Any VPS can be.

The PS4 has the full ability to use what Azure offers. All Azure is is a VPS. You only need to be able to communicate using IP (TCP/IP usually) to utilize Azure. That's why your phone can use it, your PS3, your Xbox 360, your 3DS, your Chromecast.

As to knowing what dedicated servers are, I said "virtual dedicated servers", so your idea that somehow I'm confused is just your own error. You even quoted what I said.

You really are looking foolish here. Respawn will spin up virtual dedicated servers as needed near to where people are playing and take them down when no one is using them. They will use Azure to do this. But this is nothing new, sites like Giantbomb, reddit or Amazon use VPSes to create new virtual hosts when their servers get loaded up. Amazon EC2 is the most popular (and the one Giantbomb uses), Microsoft created Azure and is trying to increase their foothold in the market. I'm glad Respawn will be do it, but they will have no advantage on this front, because companies have been doing it for some time now.

Yes, a system designed to run thin game code that requires complex processing isn't going to be sending code to a server. What are you even smoking at this point?

Perhaps you're not comparing it to the PS4, because Sony chose to add Compute Units on their dies, while MS went with DMEs. Yeah, and that was partly my point. It's kind of hard to achieve the same functionality when the two boxes have different hardware built for different purposes. But I love how you try to pass this up as irrelevant.

No the CPU doesn't have to transform the data or stuff it into the GPU. It absolutely doesn't. The code processed on the server can be streamlined back to the DMEs from where it can be sent straight into the graphics pipeline to be rendered locally. Hence, that's the advantage. This is exactly how TitanFall is capable of taking advantage of it and freeing up 2 cores to do other things.

You also ought to look more into the Azure Hypervisor since you know...it runs on and controls hundreds of thousands of machines, not one.

The latency provided by Azure, will be about as bad as the latency provided by your LCD or controller. Forget your papers, because I have a better example. Go watch this real life example from your very own Gaikai service:

http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/bulletstorm-xbox-360-vs-gaikai-input-lag-video

Bulletstorm on Xbox 360: 133ms lag.

Bullestorm on Gaikai: 133ms lag.

And of course, this a streaming cloud service designed to wait for an input from a controller, run all code, including that which is latency-sensitive and then stream back a video. There has been repeated discussions regarding that this isn't what's going to happen with the X1, which means latency will be even less of a factor. In fact it won't be a factor at all under most of its applications considering it's designed for latency-insensitive code. A cycle of A.I. or physics designed to simulate trees swaying in the wind, isn't going to make a damn difference to your eyes whether it was processed locally or if it has a 1-2 frames delay on a server. You will NEVER know it. The entire latency argument is just one big uninformed myth based on a couple of archaic examples of early attempts from 3-4 years ago. It has been debunked too many times.

And I'm not a fool. If you think you are currently performing real time hybrid server-client processing by accessing the internet, like the X1 and Azure is going to do, you're just plain delusional or you are clearly still talking about a subject you have not yet understood.

The advantage is that MS owns Azure, and they also manufacture the Xbox. And if the PS4 offered similar capability to developers, come this fall you'd already be hearing about actual examples or games or Sony touting this horn rather than talks of backwards compatibility and the rest of it being wishful thinking from people like you. Where are they? Where are the announcements? As I said a few pages back...they're going to be playing catch-up once again.

#168 Edited by FCKSNAP (2299 posts) -

The Cloud, whatever. Did you know the Dualshock 4 has a fucking touchpad? Holy shit day 1!

#169 Posted by flippyandnod (370 posts) -

What are you talking about me insisting about sending code? It is you talking about sending code!

Everyone has DMA engines. EVERYONE. Yes, PS4 has them. Everyone has them.

Here, you can buy an Arduino Due for $50. It has DMA.

http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardDue

'DMA controller, that can relieve the CPU from doing memory intensive tasks'

If that's too much, a Raspberry Pi has it too, for $25.

Yes, the CPU will be transforming data it receives before feeding it into the GPU. You receive data describing the state of the game and use that to transform (rotate, translate, scale, shade, etc.) your objects and then feed those into the GPU. No one is going to write a game that DMAs graphics data right off the net into the GPU.

You should look into Hypervisors, since you don't know. There is one Azure hypervisor per (real) server. It allows the server to present multiple virtual servers. There is coordinating software too, which provisions the system, but that isn't the hypervisor.

I have no idea why you are comparing Gaikai latency to Xbox 360. We agreed no one is going to stream games, right? The key is you said games could be written with no regard to the fact that part of the game is running in the cloud and part on your Xbox One. This is nonsense, any latency that is present in the net connection would ADD TO the latency already present in the game. So it must be programmed around. That means no automatic process of splitting your game to run partly on Azure and partly on the Xbox One. You will have to design your game with the network effects (latency, bandwidth, lost packets) in mind.

And I'm not a fool. If you think you are currently performing real time hybrid server-client processing by accessing the internet, like the X1 and Azure is going to do, you're just plain delusional or you are clearly still talking about a subject you have not yet understood.

Any system can do it. Azure is not special. Xbox One is not special. Neither can make latency go away. Xbox One will not have any "real time" advantage over any existing system. So if you think that Azure is going to change all this up, you're a fool and just swallowing MS marketing BS.

Why does Sony have to announce anything? Again, there is nothing special about Azure. If developers want to use virtual servers, they can use Amazon EC2 today. They don't have to wait for Xbox One to come out, and they don't need any help at all from Sony. And developers certainly already are. You're using Amazon EC2 right now on Giantbomb. Why do you think Giantbomb has figured out something that game developers haven't?

There's no catch-up to play. This is all available right now to developers on PS3, Xbox 360, 3DS, iPhone, Windows Phone, etc.

Here's the tools:

http://aws.amazon.com/code

Have a blast.

Sony doesn't to make some huge announcement unless they are interested in entering into the blowhard marketing competition. Given that some people such as yourself seem to swallow this junk hook, line and sinker, maybe they should get right on it.

#170 Posted by Jimbo (9775 posts) -

Presumably they mean 600% more processing power available for A.I. (than on 360), rather than the different & nonsensical statement in the thread title. You can't really measure AI like that and say that this Forza will have 7x as much AI as the last Forza.

Whether having that extra processing power available for AI actually translates into noticeably improved AI remains to be seen. I doubt it, because I expect the current bottleneck on AI is human ability to code AI, rather than how many CPUs are available to be dedicated to it. Having that AI code evolve over time based on how real people are driving is interesting, but that's a diffent design approach rather than a straight case of 'more power = 600% more/better AI'.

#171 Edited by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@flippyandnod said:

What are you talking about me insisting about sending code? It is you talking about sending code!

Everyone has DMA engines. EVERYONE. Yes, PS4 has them. Everyone has them.

Here, you can buy an Arduino Due for $50. It has DMA.

http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardDue

'DMA controller, that can relieve the CPU from doing memory intensive tasks'

If that's too much, a Raspberry Pi has it too, for $25.

Yes, the CPU will be transforming data it receives before feeding it into the GPU. You receive data describing the state of the game and use that to transform (rotate, translate, scale, shade, etc.) your objects and then feed those into the GPU. No one is going to write a game that DMAs graphics data right off the net into the GPU.

You should look into Hypervisors, since you don't know. There is one Azure hypervisor per (real) server. It allows the server to present multiple virtual servers. There is coordinating software too, which provisions the system, but that isn't the hypervisor.

I have no idea why you are comparing Gaikai latency to Xbox 360. We agreed no one is going to stream games, right? The key is you said games could be written with no regard to the fact that part of the game is running in the cloud and part on your Xbox One. This is nonsense, any latency that is present in the net connection would ADD TO the latency already present in the game. So it must be programmed around. That means no automatic process of splitting your game to run partly on Azure and partly on the Xbox One. You will have to design your game with the network effects (latency, bandwidth, lost packets) in mind.

And I'm not a fool. If you think you are currently performing real time hybrid server-client processing by accessing the internet, like the X1 and Azure is going to do, you're just plain delusional or you are clearly still talking about a subject you have not yet understood.

Any system can do it. Azure is not special. Xbox One is not special. Neither can make latency go away. Xbox One will not have any "real time" advantage over any existing system. So if you think that Azure is going to change all this up, you're a fool and just swallowing MS marketing BS.

Why does Sony have to announce anything? Again, there is nothing special about Azure. If developers want to use virtual servers, they can use Amazon EC2 today. They don't have to wait for Xbox One to come out, and they don't need any help at all from Sony. And developers certainly already are. You're using Amazon EC2 right now on Giantbomb. Why do you think Giantbomb has figured out something that game developers haven't?

There's no catch-up to play. This is all available right now to developers on PS3, Xbox 360, 3DS, iPhone, Windows Phone, etc.

Here's the tools:

http://aws.amazon.com/code

Have a blast.

Sony doesn't to make some huge announcement unless they are interested in entering into the blowhard marketing competition. Given that some people such as yourself seem to swallow this junk hook, line and sinker, maybe they should get right on it.

First of all,who gives a crap that I can go buy DMA? What the hell does that have to do with the different architectures between the X1 and the PS4's APUs and how they are designed to operate? More specifically what does this have to do with the fact the X1's APU has embedded eSRAM and data move engines capable of both JIT LZ/JPEG compression and decompression and the PS4 doesn't and only supports decompression? And how about the fact that embedded eSRAM comes as a pretty significant benefit when talking about partial resident textures which will be supported on Xbox One?

From MS's Xbox architect panel:

There's also some technology we put in to enable really large dynamic worlds as well. We have this thing called partially resident textures that the gpu supports which actually means that you can save esentially gigabytes of memory in not having to have all of the data loaded at all of the time. So the gpu itself can figure out if something is in memory or not, it doesn't need everything to be physically in memory the whole time. We also put in a compression as well, we have lz77 move engines that can just work behind the scene and compress/decompress, which is going to be really super important for working with data from the cloud.

Let me make it clear for you. Sony decided to use part of their silicon budget to beef up the PS4's GPU with GPGPu compute units. However, MS decided to go in a different direction and yes, add actual hardware, that specifically targets the X1's ability to be integrated with the Azure network which includes having eSRAM, on chip, with data move engines capable of LZ encode/ decode. A suitable and conductive design for network processing.

Second of all it's clear to me you know very little about the X1's offloading capabilities, because that's exactly what offloading processes do. That rotation, translating, scaling, and all those calculations that you want to offload, would be performed on the server. Much like sending up something like Navier-Stokes fluid dynamics equations and getting back the XYZ and vector coordinates ready for rendering after the server processes it and simply re-synchronizing it with the rest of your code. That's the entire freaking point dude!

Latency is latency and it's simply the amount of time it takes to send, process, and receive code or data. If you understood the fact that the X1 is only going to use it for latency-insensitive code, while performing most of the rendering process offline, then you should understand why your latency argument is nothing but BS. What that video showed was for one that it's not an issue even for cloud streaming services and for another that in fact there wasn't any added latency. It will be even less of an issue for streaming physics, A.I. and other compute code, since the rest of the rendering process actually takes place locally, not on a server. It's very different than a cloud streaming service where everything is processed, rendered, compressed into a low quality video then streamed back to your hardware to be displayed on your TV.

There is no catch up to play yet there have already been 1st generation xbox One games announced that are taking advantage and none for the PS4. You keep talking about it being available....yet there's nothing to back up your claims of anyone actually doing this....

And the reason why the X1/Azure is in fact special, is because they don't have to make latency go away. It's going to only process information that isn't affected by it. Latency which really isn't a big issue to begin with. It's becoming plainly obvious to me that the only reason is not special to you because not only do you not fully understand it but most likely because Sony hasn't actually announced the PS4 to be capable of this. I'm done arguing with you since you apparently have till not learned what the Xbox One and Azure are equipped to do so do more research and come back to me when Sony announces partial offloading capabilities to a server for games running on the PS4 hardware.

#172 Posted by flippyandnod (370 posts) -

There is no catch up to play yet there have already been 1st generation xbox One games announced that are taking advantage and none for the PS4. You keep talking about it being available....yet there's nothing to back up your claims of anyone actually doing this....

Everything does this. Hell, Farmville is entirely offloaded. MMOs have been partially offloaded for decades (hello, Ultima Online!). You've blinded yourself. You've created some specification that lets you ignore every other game out there and pretend Xbox One created the idea of communicating with the network as part of your game.

You're just lost. I just hope you continue to use your nonsensical combination of hardware components and MS marketing names for technologies so that others who (like myself) actually know what they are talking about won't mess up (as I regrettably did) and take you seriously.

#173 Edited by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@flippyandnod said:

There is no catch up to play yet there have already been 1st generation xbox One games announced that are taking advantage and none for the PS4. You keep talking about it being available....yet there's nothing to back up your claims of anyone actually doing this....

Everything does this. Hell, Farmville is entirely offloaded. MMOs have been partially offloaded for decades (hello, Ultima Online!). You've blinded yourself. You've created some specification that lets you ignore every other game out there and pretend Xbox One created the idea of communicating with the network as part of your game.

You're just lost. I just hope you continue to use your nonsensical combination of hardware components and MS marketing names for technologies so that others who (like myself) actually know what they are talking about won't mess up (as I regrettably did) and take you seriously.

You still don't get it. If Farmville is entirely offloaded, then that would be considered a streaming service. That means everything is being processed on the server. Once again, not what MS plans on doing.

MMOs are NOT partially offloaded either for anything more than your typical online multiplayer code.

Neither of your examples actually use real time processing to process physics or render on both the client and the server. It's either one or the other. And yes the PS4, as far as we all know is capable of streaming, just like the X1 or any other device beginning with an 8 year old laptop. But there has been no sight or talk or even a future promise of offloading processing to a server the way MS plans on doing with the X1.

It's not marketing B.S. What's obvious is we have spend writing a book here and you still haven't even managed to understand the basic premise, and the difference between the 2.

Yes, just about any device can plug into a streaming cloud service. In this case it's as simple as plugging in your ethernet code.

No, not every device can offload partial code to be processed on a server and perform real time processing on both. In this case it's not that simple.

And just for the record I think the only one drinking the Kool-Aid here is you. Because you are the one ignoring a lot of important facts, hardware, and to be frank, billions of dollars in investments, and you believe that just because MS is going to do this is nothing special and Sony can do it too....without them actually doing the necessary steps to make this happen. Ignoring that they are not prepared. That they actually went in a different direction with their hardware. Coming up with your own wishful thinking propositions of how this might happen.

Here we have a company who has completed and launched a world wide computer network service since 2010, designed a console and equipped it with certain key elements, in hardware, to take advantage of it, who has invested billions to make this happen. Who also has developers making real games taking advantage of this service singing their tune.

On the other hand we have Sony who bought Gaikai last year, a service that's miniscule in comparison, whose main purpose is to be a streaming cloud service and yet you are under the impression, that it's all the same?

Which one seems more like B.S. to you?

You're right about one thing though. As of right now, if Sony did somehow manage to figure out how to do offloading, they or their developers would have to buy Azure or Amazon for some of their markets, because in places like Australia, where Gaikai isn't available, and has no local servers, those guys would be shit out of luck. So the logistics for them to even design a game in this manner, is currently, pretty freaking impractical. So as not to say impossible.

#174 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@alexglass:

Microsoft has touted the Xbox One's cloud-computing capabilities, promising that the system's hardware resources can be freed up by accessing remote servers that handle AI and physics calculations. Those remote computations, Microsoft says, will allow the Xbox One, unlike the Xbox 360, to become more powerful over time.

Sony Computer Entertainment's Shuhei Yoshida says that the PlayStation 4 can tap into similar technology, offloading processes that are typically handled locally to the cloud.

Yoshida said that "of course" PS4 developers will be able to take advantage of cloud-based computing for their titles.

"Linking, matchmaking... there are already many computations being done on the cloud side," Yoshida said, adding that there are limitations to what processes can be offloaded to a remote computer, due to latency and bandwidth.

Asked whether cloud-based computing technology would face issues of adoption, since Sony does not require an online connection for PS4, Yoshida said, "No."

"We don't believe every title needs that," he said. "But if your title needs [an] online connection to provide some online features: Go for it."

When Sony unveiled the PlayStation 4, it focused on using cloud-based technology for the delivery of streaming games, instant-play demos and the ability to let a friend on the internet take over gameplay on your PlayStation 4. Microsoft's implementation of cloud-based computing emphasized tapping into "variable number of transistors in the cloud."

Gaikai's cloud service is coming to PlayStation 4 sometime in 2014 after the console's initial launch.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/12/4424022/sony-shuhei-yoshida-says-ps4-cloud-computing-calculations

#175 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@darji said:

@alexglass:

Microsoft has touted the Xbox One's cloud-computing capabilities, promising that the system's hardware resources can be freed up by accessing remote servers that handle AI and physics calculations. Those remote computations, Microsoft says, will allow the Xbox One, unlike the Xbox 360, to become more powerful over time.

Sony Computer Entertainment's Shuhei Yoshida says that the PlayStation 4 can tap into similar technology, offloading processes that are typically handled locally to the cloud.

Yoshida said that "of course" PS4 developers will be able to take advantage of cloud-based computing for their titles.

"Linking, matchmaking... there are already many computations being done on the cloud side," Yoshida said, adding that there are limitations to what processes can be offloaded to a remote computer, due to latency and bandwidth.

Asked whether cloud-based computing technology would face issues of adoption, since Sony does not require an online connection for PS4, Yoshida said, "No."

"We don't believe every title needs that," he said. "But if your title needs [an] online connection to provide some online features: Go for it."

When Sony unveiled the PlayStation 4, it focused on using cloud-based technology for the delivery of streaming games, instant-play demos and the ability to let a friend on the internet take over gameplay on your PlayStation 4. Microsoft's implementation of cloud-based computing emphasized tapping into "variable number of transistors in the cloud."

Gaikai's cloud service is coming to PlayStation 4 sometime in 2014 after the console's initial launch.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/12/4424022/sony-shuhei-yoshida-says-ps4-cloud-computing-calculations

Yes linking...matchmaking....streaming...

So no.

Nowhere in there is there any mention of physics, lighting, real time computing split between PS4/Gaikai. Common sense should tell you this is impossible, considering you HAVE to have servers in every location you plan on supporting the PS4 in order to make this happen.

#176 Edited by EXTomar (4507 posts) -

I'm not going to comment more on what genius has been talking about because it frankly isn't worth it. He doesn't seem to understand why distribute architectures are useful or where they are useful but is so sure it is going to help XBox One over any other platform.

#177 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@alexglass: No he said that linking. matchmaking and streaming are already done over the cloud but the rest works too if developer want to use it. However Sony is not believing in this since it has much to do with latency etc.

#178 Posted by Sergio (2053 posts) -

@extomar: I think it's just funny seeing someone spew jargon and not knowing what it means. At first you want to try to educate them, but afterwards, you're better off letting them live in their own ignorance, hoping they don't drag anyone else down.

#179 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

Oh yeah you two are nothing but encyclopedias of information. Your posts are just filled with nothing but fact based, credibility. You have shown so much proof of me "not knowing what I'm talking about"...

More like you have had nothing to respond with, and nothing to back up any of your rebuttals, so you results to slandering.

And darji, you may want to try and reach out to Sony to elaborate on what "linking" means to Sony because it's one of the vaguest explanations one could possible come up with.

#180 Edited by shivermetimbers (763 posts) -

I think I found nerd wars heaven in this thread.

#181 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

Oh yeah you two are nothing but encyclopedias of information. Your posts are just filled with nothing but fact based, credibility. You have shown so much proof of me "not knowing what I'm talking about"...

More like you have had nothing to respond with, and nothing to back up any of your rebuttals, so you results to slandering.

And darji, you may want to try and reach out to Sony to elaborate on what "linking" means to Sony because it's one of the vaguest explanations one could possible come up with.

It means if developer wants to use it hey can. But Sony will not since they are thinking it is not effective.

#182 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@darji said:

@alexglass said:

Oh yeah you two are nothing but encyclopedias of information. Your posts are just filled with nothing but fact based, credibility. You have shown so much proof of me "not knowing what I'm talking about"...

More like you have had nothing to respond with, and nothing to back up any of your rebuttals, so you results to slandering.

And darji, you may want to try and reach out to Sony to elaborate on what "linking" means to Sony because it's one of the vaguest explanations one could possible come up with.

It means if developer wants to use it hey can. But Sony will not since they are thinking it is not effective.

They can use it for what exactly?

You're filling in the dots yourselves with your own wishful thinking. Sony won't do it because they can't. Because they don't have the infrastructure.

#183 Posted by big_jon (5709 posts) -

@darji: The fact that games which are made for the Xbox One will have access to what are basicly dedicated servers that are hosted by Microsoft (one of the only companies in the world capable of doing this) is amazing, that in itself makes 'The cloud' fucking awesome in its potential in my eyes. Online multiplayer has the potential of being truly great this gen, no matter what the game it will be capable of low latency/non host advantage online gameplay, that coupled with the higher bandwidth allocations for this gen makes me very excited.

#184 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@big_jon: yeah dedicated server are always great many PS3 games had them and PC games very often have them. I am not saying that dedicated server are a bad thing. I am just saying that the stuff people believe in here is possible is just dumb. You will never have any form of realtime calculations because the latency is way too bad and also you have to consider the worldwide internet structure Not everyone has a 5MB/s line or a flatrate which is needed for it.. And even MS is not stupid enough to exclude all these people. No matter how many server MS is using the bandwidth problem can not be solved with it.

#185 Posted by Silver-Streak (1339 posts) -

Uh...I'll just see myself out.

#186 Edited by zeeshanaayan07 (12 posts) -

Microsoft is the brilliant website for all internet

#187 Edited by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

New video with Dan from Turn 10 on the cloud. Dan's getting really good at this speaking to the casuals thing...

A couple of things in there that might be new or at least clarifies it a bit.

-once your personal Drivatar gets updated to the server, you'll get a report that tells you how it's been doing.

-the system pools data from everyone on the cloud, and A.I. also adapts based on what it learns from the entire community. You'll be racing against different A.I. a week from launch compared to what you were racing against at launch.

-the Forza team can introduce minigames based on feedback from the community and update the game. For example, drag racing.

-update with new achievements.

#188 Posted by Spongetwan (202 posts) -

I am looking forward to seeing how the tech works. This is one of the day one games I will be picking up on launch day!

#189 Posted by Littleg (66 posts) -

Dan Greenawalt is a master at public speaking and staying on message. Dude should be a politician

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