Ok after hearing the podcast I just had to say this. Angle armor + squad vision sniper is close to unbeatable. Throw him all the way up in the air on the first turn and he can see most of the map and gets an aim bonus for the height advantage. I see no reason to ever get snap shot. Someone tell me if I am crazy.

I used squad vision on both my snipers. Along with double tap they could get 4 shots in. I still prefer ghost armor though.

You're being obtuse.

no height advantage on arcangel armor. Limited flight time to. I prefer ghost armor

Mornin` Angle!

Yeah, Archangel Armor with double tap and squad sight is about as good of a combo as you can get.

There is no height advantage by being in the air, but a sniper in the air has a straight line of sight to most of the map. A highranking snipers accuracy is so good they usually have a 80%+ chance to hit from the air anyways. Also, staying still in the air doesn't use up the jetpack fuel. I'm with @slayergnome on this, it's such a good tactic it feels cheep.

@ShadowConqueror said:

You're being obtuse.

Perhaps, but it is still an acute observation.

no height advantage on arcangel armor. Limited flight time to. I prefer ghost armor

There is no height advantage by being in the air, but a sniper in the air has a straight line of sight to most of the map. A highranking snipers accuracy is so good they usually have a 80%+ chance to hit from the air anyways. Also, staying still in the air doesn't use up the jetpack fuel. I'm with @slayergnome on this, it's such a good tactic it feels cheep.

@bushpusherr said:

@ShadowConqueror said:

You're being obtuse.

Perhaps, but it is still an acute observation.

Wow. Those puns are pretty complimentary.

@Zelyre said:

@bushpusherr said:

@ShadowConqueror said:

You're being obtuse.

Perhaps, but it is still an acute observation.

Wow. Those puns are pretty complimentary.

Hey, you're right!

@Ravenlight said:

@Zelyre said:

@bushpusherr said:

@ShadowConqueror said:

You're being obtuse.

Perhaps, but it is still an acute observation.

Wow. Those puns are pretty complimentary.

Hey, you're right!

You're all equilaterally ridiculous

and that line of sight with angel armor is ace

@pyrodactyl: You only use fuel if you move so I have not had a problem with it yet. Also you defiantly get the height bonus.

I remember mixing up angle and angel when I was a wee lad.

@BisonHero said:

@pyrodactyl

no height advantage on arcangel armor. Limited flight time to. I prefer ghost armor

@Loafsmooch

There is no height advantage by being in the air, but a sniper in the air has a straight line of sight to most of the map. A highranking snipers accuracy is so good they usually have a 80%+ chance to hit from the air anyways. Also, staying still in the air doesn't use up the jetpack fuel. I'm with @slayergnome on this, it's such a good tactic it feels cheep.

Pretty sure if you do the "more info" on your shot, you clearly get the standard height advantage (like 10%) plus the Damn Good Ground bonus if you get that skill. The thing you DON'T get is the weird flight-related defense bonus that Floaters and Cyberdiscs get whenever they're in flight mode, which makes them like 20% harder to hit or something. THAT is what it means in the description about you getting no specific bonus from flight mode.

Yeap. Still prefer Ghost armor though. Getting to high ground was exceptionally easy, plus you had the ability to use high ground cover and had the defense bonus of the armor. Not to mention stealth. Also if you don't have the good ground perk the difference is even bigger, and I didn't.

Either way plasma sniper with squad sight and double tap was bad enough by itself regardless of what armor they wore.

@Karkarov: Agreed

@BisonHero said:

@pyrodactyl

no height advantage on arcangel armor. Limited flight time to. I prefer ghost armor

@Loafsmooch

There is no height advantage by being in the air, but a sniper in the air has a straight line of sight to most of the map. A highranking snipers accuracy is so good they usually have a 80%+ chance to hit from the air anyways. Also, staying still in the air doesn't use up the jetpack fuel. I'm with @slayergnome on this, it's such a good tactic it feels cheep.

Pretty sure if you do the "more info" on your shot, you clearly get the standard height advantage (like 10%) plus the Damn Good Ground bonus if you get that skill. The thing you DON'T get is the weird flight-related defense bonus that Floaters and Cyberdiscs get whenever they're in flight mode, which makes them like 20% harder to hit or something. THAT is what it means in the description about you getting no specific bonus from flight mode.

Ah ok. Thanks for clarifying. Basically we could all agree that snipers are simply badass, no matter what.

Yup. Did the same, parked em up high and left them hovering while they hit everything on the map. Especially that train level where you have to defuse bombs while Thin Men attack you. They were getting multiple kills per turn it was great.

What about if you go into flight mode starting from a spot that was already high ground? For example being on top of a train car or bus and then hovering a little higher. Do you uniformly lose those bonuses the moment you take flight, no matter what the starting position was?

@mason said:

What about if you go into flight mode starting from a spot that was already high ground? For example being on top of a train car or bus and then hovering a little higher. Do you uniformly lose those bonuses the moment you take flight, no matter what the starting position was?

You lose any defense bonus you had yes, and your height bonus did not improve. Just plain "being on higher ground" the traditional way was always better if it was an option. In flight mode you have no cover, you are just hovering in mid air. Even on a bus at least you had a small chance that the edge of the roof would block the shot.

@mason: Honestly tho you are usually to far back for anyone to hit you anyway so the defense bonus does not matter to much.

I have Archangel armor on one of my assaults, it's great for circumventing cover.

Yeah, those guys on the podcast are fucking nuts. A couple of snipers I had maxed out pretty much beat that game for me. Clearly not enough marksman appreciation going on.

Also, Jeff way overestimates the usefulness of the heavy. I only had one on my main squad. He pulled his weight, but he certainly wasn't winning any battles for me.

@HatKing said:

Yeah, those guys on the podcast are fucking nuts. A couple of snipers I had maxed out pretty much beat that game for me. Clearly not enough marksman appreciation going on. Also, Jeff way overestimates the usefulness of the heavy. I only had one on my main squad. He pulled his weight, but he certainly wasn't winning any battles for me.

Haha, I enjoy Jeff adamantly sticking to his completely dumb strategy. All heavies, no medkits, dammit.

But yeah, it's completely ridiculous that Ryan neglected snipers for so long. I had a similar problem of very few of my rookies being snipers and then having several of them die on me, but I sure as hell was constantly trying to level up a sniper because it was immediately apparent how useful they were.

@Karkarov said:

@mason said:

What about if you go into flight mode starting from a spot that was already high ground? For example being on top of a train car or bus and then hovering a little higher. Do you uniformly lose those bonuses the moment you take flight, no matter what the starting position was?

You lose any defense bonus you had yes, and your height bonus did not improve. Just plain "being on higher ground" the traditional way was always better if it was an option. In flight mode you have no cover, you are just hovering in mid air. Even on a bus at least you had a small chance that the edge of the roof would block the shot.

I'm pretty sure that if the game deems you not in cover, you are not in cover period. Any geometry between you and the shooter is irrelevant, even if it looks like it would impede the shot. All that matters is if you are in cover (that is, you have a blue shield icon next to your name) or not.

@Anund said:

I'm pretty sure that if the game deems you not in cover, you are not in cover period. Any geometry between you and the shooter is irrelevant, even if it looks like it would impede the shot. All that matters is if you are in cover (that is, you have a blue shield icon next to your name) or not.

You still had to have line of sight. If the enemy was against or very close to the bus they might not have gotten the shot. Also there is a baked in defense bonus for being on higher ground than the person shooting at you that you don't get in arch angel armor.

@Karkarov: Good point, that is of course a factor :)

@Mercer said:

@Ravenlight said:

@Zelyre said:

@bushpusherr said:

@ShadowConqueror said:

You're being obtuse.

Perhaps, but it is still an acute observation.

Wow. Those puns are pretty complimentary.

Hey, you're right!

You're all equilaterally ridiculous

and that line of sight with angel armor is ace

I'm sorry but this had me laughing till my hypotenuse ached.

@Anund said:

I'm pretty sure that if the game deems you not in cover, you are not in cover period. Any geometry between you and the shooter is irrelevant, even if it looks like it would impede the shot. All that matters is if you are in cover (that is, you have a blue shield icon next to your name) or not.

You still had to have line of sight. If the enemy was against or very close to the bus they might not have gotten the shot. Also there is a baked in defense bonus for being on higher ground than the person shooting at you that you don't get in arch angel armor.

Except, you know, indoors.

@slayergnome said:

Ok after hearing the podcast I just had to say this. Angle armor + squad vision sniper is close to unbeatable. Throw him all the way up in the air on the first turn and he can see most of the map and gets an aim bonus for the height advantage. I see no reason to ever get snap shot. Someone tell me if I am crazy.

You are 100% right. I know there is more than one way to play the game and spec your dudes but I don't see how this build could be more effective, although it has its issues in the indoor environments of course. When you consider how fucked the line of sight in this game is too the flying sniper is just not beatable. He ends up shooting through walls all the time.

I did spec a snap shot sniper but I only used him for UFO/Base missions that were indoor. But when I got the PSI portion of the game my sniper I had been using all along with Squad Sight ended up having PSI abilities so I would usually just use mindfray if I needed a move/attack option. I also had upgraded my pistols so they were pretty damn effective too and those also get snap shot. So by that point I was just solely using my squad sight sniper and he made it through the whole game. I did throw Ghost armor on him for the final mission though for obvious reasons.

Proof of how strangely you can play the game is Jeff just taking all Heavy class, which I found the least useful aside from the awesome rockets. So yeah. Some of the GB dudes play a bit strangely but whatever works.

Attacking non covered taking no turn is a clutch for my sniper

@Mirado said:

Mornin` Angle!

nice

@Karkarov said:

@mason said:

What about if you go into flight mode starting from a spot that was already high ground? For example being on top of a train car or bus and then hovering a little higher. Do you uniformly lose those bonuses the moment you take flight, no matter what the starting position was?

You lose any defense bonus you had yes, and your height bonus did not improve. Just plain "being on higher ground" the traditional way was always better if it was an option. In flight mode you have no cover, you are just hovering in mid air. Even on a bus at least you had a small chance that the edge of the roof would block the shot.

Sadly this is incorrect. The game tool tip is misleading.

The unit with archangel armor while in flight, does in fact receive a cover bonus equivalent to low cover 20%. And does not suffer the critical chance penalty against him/her.

As well as the standard elevation bonuses. And a sniper gets the further Damn Good Ground perk benefit if he has it, which he should.

So in the end statistically a dude flying will be better defended then a dude simply standing in the open (without a cover bonus) on a train or car roof.

Like already mentioned terrain edges/features have no bearing on blocking shots, only defense bonuses matter, not physical objects in between. Your only advantage is ability to break LoS while on high ground instead of flying, but that has the disadvantage of making the sniper less useful.

@Tennmuerti said:

Sadly this is incorrect. The game tool tip is misleading.

The unit with archangel armor while in flight, does in fact receive a cover bonus equivalent to low cover 20%. And does not suffer the critical chance penalty against him/her.

As well as the standard elevation bonuses. And a sniper gets the further Damn Good Ground perk benefit if he has it, which he should.

So in the end statistically a dude flying will be better defended then a dude simply standing in the open (without a cover bonus) on a train or car roof.

Like already mentioned terrain edges/features have no bearing on blocking shots, only defense bonuses matter, not physical objects in between. Your only advantage is ability to break LoS while on high ground instead of flying, but that has the disadvantage of making the sniper less useful.

Really? The games more info thing says you don't get the cover bonus I was pretty sure. Either way I still prefer ghost for all the reasons I have already said. Angel armor is still okay though.

I only had one piece of Archangel armour and I put it on my Support, he had a lot of good picks while hovering with Plasma Rifle + Scope. A lot of good reaction shots too. I'll definitely try the Sniper with it.

I think Ghost armour is unbeatable though. Any unit you place it on essentially gets four turns free of damage. It allows you to play riskier and get the jump on those X-rays; as far as I know it's the only way to surprise them. Six Assaults can sprint in to a room full of powerful aliens and not be seen. Even though they've dashed they all go on Alloy Cannon Overwatch while on soldier fires. Massacre. I'd bet on a Ghost Assault team over an All Heavy team.

I was surprised at how Brad & Patrick were so dead set on Snap Shot. Squad Site is just ridiculous. Once you get some Improved Pistol perks from the Foundry I found Snap Shot to be even less relevant. I use the Angel Armor on my sniper but haven't tried just flying straight up and staying there, all check it out.

I'm actually think Jeff is on to something with his Heavy's though. I'm finding my best success rolling with 3 Heavies. Two with the perk that allows you to shoot twice, Shredder rockets & Scopes and 1 with the Holo site and suppression, all with Heat ammo. They completely eviscerate Sectopods.

I love the multiple combinations and strategies you can use in this game, its great.

On an open map I think the archangel armor is better. Just park you snipers as high and as back as possible and enjoy.

But there are quite a few maps that are not open at all and where your snipers need to follow your squads. For those, I prefer the ghost armor.

I tried using the Archangel armor on my highest ranking sniper one time and it just went so horribly I am too scarred to try again. I launched him off of a trailer and on the next turn a Muton Elite pops around the corner of the trailer and just blasted him out of the sky. The sniper bounced off the trailer and onto the ground and my most hardened (and favorite) Assault dude freaks out and blasts my highest ranking heavy. Then a rookie freaks out and shoots my super hard Support guy. The sniper is just dead on the ground with his jetpack blasting for the rest of the game, just taunting me. The statistical details you guys are talking about give me some hope for another try one day.

@jasonefmonk The Ghost Assault squad sounds brutal, I love that idea.

I use one of each typically. I have my angel of death sniper that certainly does more raw damage on the majority of missions (Squad Sight, Executioner, Double Tap, Archangel Armour) but my Ranger (Snap Shot, Opportunist, In the Zone, Ghost Armour) is still super useful, especially in tight situations. I really like having one of each, being able to reposition the sniper and still setup overwatch is great. Especially since I typically play with an excruciatingly slow leapfrog forward. I never move more than one turn's worth, always end with overwatch.

@supamon said:

@Mercer said:

@Ravenlight said:

@Zelyre said:

@bushpusherr said:

@ShadowConqueror said:

You're being obtuse.

Perhaps, but it is still an acute observation.

Wow. Those puns are pretty complimentary.

Hey, you're right!

You're all equilaterally ridiculous

and that line of sight with angel armor is ace

I'm sorry but this had me laughing till my hypotenuse ached.

Whatchu just say? Pythagoras please.

@supamon said:

@Mercer said:

@Ravenlight said:

@Zelyre said:

@bushpusherr said:

@ShadowConqueror said:

You're being obtuse.

Perhaps, but it is still an acute observation.

Wow. Those puns are pretty complimentary.

Hey, you're right!

You're all equilaterally ridiculous

and that line of sight with angel armor is ace

I'm sorry but this had me laughing till my hypotenuse ached.

Whatchu just say? Pythagoras please.

I cosine this request.

@ribbs said:

@supamon said:

@Mercer said:

@Ravenlight said:

@Zelyre said:

@bushpusherr said:

@ShadowConqueror said:

You're being obtuse.

Perhaps, but it is still an acute observation.

Wow. Those puns are pretty complimentary.

Hey, you're right!

You're all equilaterally ridiculous

and that line of sight with angel armor is ace

I'm sorry but this had me laughing till my hypotenuse ached.

Whatchu just say? Pythagoras please.

I cosine this request.

I secant this