@prl412 said:
Once people figure out all the ways to (ab)use the knife parry system, and after some weapon upgrading, I think this game will feel just as good as running through the original title.
@dan_citi said:
I have no idea what you guys are talking about, this demo is fantastic and an improvement on every way from the original as far as I can tell
I couldn't disagree more. The original was a once-in-a-generation type of game whose gameplay was almost unfathomably well-tuned. Given its troubled development history, and that even Shinji Mikami hasn't been able to replicate it since, I chalk a lot of that up to a very happy accident. It's so good that I've played it roughly once a year in the eighteen years since its release, and it just never gets old. After playing through this demo a fair few times, there is nothing about it that makes me believe the same will be true of this one.
I want to quote another RE4 superfan from almost two years ago on this board, @lapsariangiraff, who described better than I could what made RE4 so special in relation to RE8:
Similarly, I replay it a lot. And that combat loop [Stagger-->Kick-->Knife] is a huge part of it. Sometimes people say it controls poorly, but I think it controls perfectly for what you're being asked to do. You're not being asked to be a crack shot (though it helps) -- you're being asked to control a space. A space that is constantly trying to get away from you, with guys spawning behind or inching to your periphery. And when you best them, when you maneuver in such a way they're all lined up in front of you ready for *one* shotgun blast or *one* grenade or *one* well-placed kick -- you've already won. And that feels great. And I never feel like I'm in control of the space in Village-- I'm just hitting as many headshots as I can as the enemies come toward me, and then running over to another side of the room when they come close to me to do it again.
The core problem with this remake is that, like RE8, you're not able to control your space like you were in the original. It's just not that game anymore.
The two biggest components, broadly speaking, that are causing this are these:
(1) Leon--and his weapons--are less capable than before, while enemies are more capable.
(2) Enemy reactions aren't consistent.
That's hardly all my complaints, but let's look at these for a second.
An easy place to start is the shotgun, which @cikame mentioned. In the original game, shotgun blasts hit a wide area and were an automatic knockdown against most non-boss enemies, including chainsaw maniacs (even the female versions, which were supposed to be more deadly). The shotgun in this game hits a much more narrow area, and the chainsaw maniac mostly just shrugs it off. So while in the old game every shotgun shell represented a powerful ability to control your space, knocking down everything in a wide cone in front of you, here it's just... another way to pump some damage into enemies, but still leaves you very vulnerable.
The pistol mostly feels about as capable as it was before, at least with the shooting part, but the melee attack follow-ups aren't. You have to be closer to initiate; it doesn't hit as wide an area; sometimes it randomly selects an animation that doesn't clear other enemies at all and instead leaves you standing in the middle of them (speaking to consistency). Meanwhile Leon is more sluggish in running forward to initiate the attack.
And speaking more to consistency, sometimes a shotgun shell to the face will put the chainsaw maniac in a state to melee... but sometimes won't. There seems to be no way to tell whether it will or not. Likewise, sometimes knocked-down ganados can be instantly killed with your knife (right trigger), and sometimes not, unclear when you can and can't. And probably worst of all, a pistol shot to a ganado's head won't always put them in a melee-able state, either. Again, not consistent.
The original game was utterly consistent in enemy responses to your gunplay: a shot to the head of a ganado would always leave them reeling. Here you can shoot them in the head and run forward to melee, only to realize the game arbitrarily decided the enemy isn't staggered. That type of inconsistency is the kiss of death for me, because the rules of the game aren't clear. You can respond that a certain amount of random variation in reactions is more realistic, but I don't f-ing care. If I wanted complete realism in my video games, my character would need to take a piss every few hours. I want to know that when I do an action, it's going to lead to the same result.
Add to all this that enemies are in general faster, more aggressive, more difficult to hit. I'm someone who likes hard games, but RE4 wasn't great because it was hard. It was great because it was just hard enough... and because it was fundamentally a tightly controlled action game first, and second, and maybe even third; being a horror game was a distant consideration by comparison.
The original RE4 was about standing and fighting. Your strong area-control options and the badassness of Leon and his weapons meant that ideally, you actually wanted to corner yourself, creating a narrow space in front of you in order to keep knocking down whole groups of enemies with a single bullet. E.g., there was a house in the first game in the middle of the village that led to a dead-end room. That was the best place to go because you could wait for enemies to collect in the outer room, and then shotgun blast about ten of them at once as soon as they opened the door, or shoot one in the head and roundhouse kick them all.
This remake? It's a lot more about running away. That same house not only doesn't dead-end anymore, but you don't even want to dead-end yourself with the chainsaw maniac anymore, because you no longer have the tools to deal with him well. I tried doing it by returning to the village entrance... putting your back to the gate is the best you can do for this strategy. But since there's no way to consistently knock down the chainsaw maniac besides grenades, you're just trapping yourself needlessly if you do this. Leon is no longer a badass. Run away, Leon!
That would be fine for a horror game--see Mr. X, who is definitely terrifying--but RE4 was never a horror game in the way previous entries were. Previous games didn't reward you for killing enemies, they were purely obstacles to overcome, and running away without spending ammunition was sometimes the best solution. But RE4 was an action game masquerading as a horror game--enemies even give loot drops, meaning you actively want to kill them--only this dev team apparently didn't get that memo, because they've made Leon less powerful and enemies more powerful seemingly in order to increase the sense of terror and panic, the horror aspect. And that part just isn't what made RE4 special.
Oh, and, ya know, then there's the whole thing about your knife being breakable that I wrote a whole damned blog about. I called it my "one big complaint" at the time because I obviously hadn't gotten my hands on the game yet, it was just a complaint based on early footage. Now there's even more important stuff to complain about.
I'd pre-ordered this thing because, well, I'm such an RE4 superfan that I just had to know exactly what they did to it. But after playing this demo, there's definitely a big part of me that wants to cancel. It hasn't made me more excited, it's made me more sad that the dev team doesn't seem to have understood what made the original so great in the first place. People who have never played the original will play this and might like it pretty well, but will probably wonder what all the fuss was about back in 2005, assuming that this thing is a straight upgrade. It's not. It has a lot of the same gameplay elements, but feels completely different, and not in a good way.
I think I'll still play it at release, but... ugh. Now it feels like I'm only doing it to confirm my disappointment.
A few other things:
@prl412 said:
I'm enjoying the demo so far, even though I get grabbed by Ganados every five seconds. I think the full game will be more well rounded, and the hidden weapon does add variety.
Once people figure out all the ways to (ab)use the knife parry system, and after some weapon upgrading...
I think you're getting grabbed by ganados every five seconds--just like I am--because, as I said, the game is just harder in a way that isn't particularly fun. I see no reason to believe the full release will be "more well rounded." What exactly would they change in order to do that when the game is releasing in two weeks?
Also, upgrades in the original game were always matched by the enemies correspondingly having more HP, so I don't expect upgrading will actually help much with this feeling of Leon being overwhelmed a lot of the time. Like, yeah, the hidden TMP in this demo feels powerful, but that's because it's a fully upgraded version (you can see that by examining it in your case). For the retail release it's not going to be nearly that strong.
@cikame said:
Too dark, claustrophobic, fov slider doesn't go far enough like i'm looking through a tube, i thought it was broken at first, most of the demo is a corridor, Canadian Leon, they try to make it spookier then in a cutscene teenage Leon kicks a dude so hard he gets launched, the movement feels awful, people complained about Geralt in The Witcher 3 but this is worse, aiming feels weird on controller i had a hard time, Leon takes up too much of the screen when aiming, can you see the chainsaw man in this image?, RE2 remake combat with RE4's enemy count doesn't work, RE4 had the best shotguns of all time, this does not, gun to knife transition is slow, enemies have more combo attacks keeping you at a distance, all this makes the village fight (one of the best scenes in the original) feel tedious and annoying, stutter during area transitions but that's not a huge deal.
I agree that this game certainly doesn't feel like the RE4 I love, but I think some of this is overstated.
Yeah, most of the demo is indeed a corridor... but so was the original RE4 up to the first village encounter. I think the real complaint here is that the opening section feels much more barren and focused on spectacle than the original. In the original game you were looking for loot right away, with the crows right the beginning, with the box you could knife to the left of the first house. In this game you can't even draw your weapon or open your inventory for a bit; your first ganado is an uncontrollable cutscene rather than a fight; the first ganado you actually fight never drops loot and is better just avoided completely--likewise with two more ganados you can see by going backwards, they never drop anything either; aside from a single herb and a key, none of the interactables are things that matter at all, gameplay-wise. You have to dive through the window on the second floor before it starts being a video game.
The movement is worse, yeah, but c'mon, it's not as epically bad as Witcher 3's original movement. Geralt had the turning radius of a mack truck.
But your core comment that RE2 remake combat with RE4's enemy count doesn't work... yeah, pretty much.
I should probably say that I don't hate every change they've made. I think I like the system of gunpowder so that you can make the ammo you want, rather than being stuck with a certain type all the time. I like that they've differentiated the TMP more by making the aim positively atrocious. I like that loot dropped by enemies doesn't seem to disappear after a bit like it did in the original.
But these feel like small victories in a game that to me has largely missed the point.
I suspect there will be a strong correlation between people who loved the original RE4 to death and people who just aren't that into this one. I'd love to be wrong, I'd love to eat my words and love the full release of this thing as much as the original. But I feel very confident that I won't. In words of one Dan Ryckert, if I like this game as much the original, I will eat a hat. And unlike Dan, I mean a real hat.
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