Giant Bombcast 755: Stealth Poodle

Work has been nightmarish lately, and will likely continue to be through September. So I'm still yet to dive into Immortality. Can anyone who's listened to this episode speak to the spoiler-y nature of the discussion of the game?

@wittynickname: I've seen credits on the game. I heard the section about it and I would say it wasn't very spoilery story wise. There might be a couple things that one could infer potential spoilers from, but all in all they didn't talk too much about the story.

@simplybagel: This is good to read. Thank you.

Monster Hunter clones are akin to Dark Souls clones. If you don't absolutely nail it, you won't pull the audience away from the big series.

I truly don’t understand the discourse on Immortality. Positive or negative. I feel largely like Jan, I finished the game and enjoyed the ride but by the end it wore out it’s welcome. Easily a 3/5 star game for me. The idea that this is a masterpiece of gaming is ridiculous, but I also don’t think it’s as bad as Jess does.

I think because FMV is so rarely used in major game releases that it’s getting more attention than other games, and being on Game Pass is making it more accessible to a wider audience. Plus being able to use a controller and that actually being the preferred method. I would rather play Contradiction again than Immortality though.

My final comment though is that this game has to win best looking game. Dan has made it clear that graphics peaked when Mortal Kombat used real people for its characters and this game uses real people AND environments! Lol

I haven't listened to all of it yet, BUT the way Jess describes Immortality and Sam Barlow makes me think Sam Barlow and Tommy Wiseau have a bunch in common.

EDIT: Oh, they got there. Good, Grubb

Found the star of Sam Barlow's next game:

That thumbnail is of a dirty poodle cross breed. Likely a cockapoo or some such abomination. An afront to pure strain pedigree poodles.

Some constructive criticism: Jess has made her opinion about Sam Barlow very well known in the past. This episode you were talking about one of his games so of course you should bring it up again. But then there’s no need to repeat that half a dozen more times over the course of a half an hour. Comments were registered, acknowledged, discussed, time to move the podcast along, whether that is more talk about the game itself, or some other topic.

Jess' argument that all Barlow games are the same is so bizarre. It has the same vibe as people arguing that all shooters or sport games are the same, it's completely pointless. There's only so much you can do with fmv and there's plenty of differences between Her Story and Immortality. From the way it looks, to the way it controls (which is important, HS was much better with mouse, Immortality much better with controller) and from the story (obviously).

I have been enjoying Immortality a lot. I rolled credits, but I'm going back to try to find all of the clips. By now, I've put over 18 hours into this game. I've found it engaging and interesting, I've also enjoyed Sam Barlow's previous database search/FMV games Her Story and Telling Lies. They are maybe the same in that they are the same genre, but the navigation, story, and performances are all different, so I don't know why Jess keeps insisting they are exactly the same as each other.

I also want to point out, Jess said something about how Sam Barlow had "clearly just watched Twin Peaks", but the co-writer of the game, Barry Gifford, is a David Lynch collaborator. Like, a whole team made this game, not just Sam Barlow.

On the topic of same-sex marriages in the new Fire Emblem, it was in Three Houses. I played as the female Byleth and married Dorothea. I would imagine the new one would also allow it. I wouldn't see why it would step away from it now. I don't know if the male Byleth was handled differently, though.

Go off queen, I also just don't see the hype with Immortality (or most of Sam Barlow's works). Your opinion is super valid and I love to hear them every time!

@disgustipater: yup. I have no opinion on Barlow but Jess' intense dislike for him (valid or otherwise) is already tedious.

This was a rough one, so much misinformation about Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Golden Eye and Zelda. Like Fire Emblem has had same sex relationships since 2012. Maybe Grubb should focus less on rumours. ;)

I’m curious if we ever hear about Immortality again after this episode. I was interested to hear Jan and Grubb’s take and how their experience might have differed from Jess’s, but that didn’t really happen and everyone seemed like they were just walking on egg shells about the whole topic, while Jess would roll her eyes or look uninterested when Jan or Grubb mentioned something they liked. There nothing wrong with not liking a game everyone else seems to like, but It seemed like no one wanted to have this conversation on the podcast.

I understand that is not the case for this game coverage, but that’s what it came off as and I personally felt it was just a bad discussion. You could cut it from the podcast and not miss anything.

@simplybagel: Jess seems like she take things as a personal attack when someone likes something she doesn’t (or vice versa). Register your opinion and explanation and move on.

How Jess feels about Sam Barlow is how I feel about Naughty Dog.

I already wrote way too many words about Immortality on this very site in a user review, but I think it’s interesting how Jess’ opinion (and the Kotaku review, which I’ve read since posting) differ from my own negative assessment. I like the concept of the game and certainly hope it inspires other devs to try stuff like this, mostly because Immortality was a swing and a miss for me. It would definitely have been better with a stronger commitment to the cheesiness; however, it tries to do a lot of disparate things all at once and fails to marry them in a satisfying way.

Anyway, good discussion, appreciated the deep dive and variety of opinions on it. If y’all want to do a spoilercast for Immortality, I would definitely listen to it.

About that one flag email, you can tell we're 1.5 months out from a major election here.

We should know this drill by now.

I have my own too, but I process it more jovially.

Its not healthy to not.

It's totally valid to like or not like Immortality. I'm not sure why we need to spend so much time talking about whether *other people* like it the right amount (why are people calling it a masterpiece when I don't like it?!) or making guesses about the real intention of the creator (they definitely must be taking this seriously even when it seems silly and are surely just trying to win awards!). I'm interested in everyone's feelings about the game, not their feelings about other people's feelings about the game.

@simplybagel: Yeah agreed. @wittynickname I think the discussion worked even better in that she moved it to the idea of games like this and how they are received due to differences in interpretation of what the creator wanted to do and what you wanted out of it. Personally never been a fan of the oh its campy on purpose, makes me feel like im wasting my time mostly, im ok with a director trying something even if it comes off pretentious. Like i didnt like matrix 4, but liked matrix 1 and even some of 2 regardless of it as people say, trying too hard. But jess sounded right, campy would have worked for a slow slog of a game to liven it up, though maybe it's not a slog (her story was for me). There's more to it but it reminded me of the backlash mgs2 got on release and now post-release in 2020-2022 were a lot of the things in the game are taking effect in pseudo ways. Back then people claimed it was a disappointment you didn't get to play as snake, then the conversation nearer now turned to this guy does the same crap and his stories aren't good you just think they're good cause their complex but they are not they just convoluted and nothing makes sense, to oh crap a lot of what he said kinda works, still he thinks he's smart or i feels like he does, and his games are dumb lol so, etc. Like jess said, it helps that there is silly nature mixed in and he is trying to discuss what he enjoys reading about. (I also think people don't notice that a lot of anime and Japanese topics in games mostly military sci-fi deal with this stuff so its more fresh for them).

Opinion:

@vamperial: Even worst for monster hunter clones. With dark souls likes souls people are still or were still thirsty for a challenging game again so they tried out whatever came out. Much like stealth game fans who like splinter cell and MGS. Though stealth games tend to fall into we cant please non stealth fans just make it a shooter when your caught, so there arent many solid hard stealth games.

Souls main games you can beat in 10-50 hours, elden ring not included. So were still thirsty and try the lords of fallen 6/10 type games a trudge through a game that "didnt get it..." for the ones that mostly do Nioh 2, etc. Then we have Monster hunter clones, which usually simplify to gain audience, so the MH audience already isn't that high on it, comes off like babies first play date, then the new audience plays and says...ok ill go to monster hunter where its more advanced. It becomes the guy you date before you marry the next one. lol. Souls you can try for simple advanced ect. souls people just want more souls challenge, the cycle of explore, boss, challenge, so on. That's something you can mine for a long time.

Im more surprised people havent copied more of something like splatoon, jet set radio future, crazy taxi, etc.

I think I'd be ok not hearing Jess's rants anymore

YES! THANK YOU!!! I'm still ride-or-die for GB but one thing I do miss about Jeff G. is that he actively steered people away from couching their opinions in reaction to popular consensus. I listen to this podcast so I can spend a few hours NOT reading twitter, I don't need twitter's opinions read back to me

if you like film as a medium and haven't played his other games, you might like immortality

if you have played his other games and noticed how one-note his approach to game development is, you might hate immortality

the sam barlow discourse is henceforth concluded until he makes another faux artsy misogyny simulator hyper praised by people who haven't played the first three

Very expected comments here and on reddit, lol. I skipped ahead 5 minutes, and then 10 minutes, and then 15 minutes, and was just shocked that every blip was like "And then Her Story--" *skip "And Sam Barlow--" *skip* "Immortality is the worst--" *skip* and then 25 minutes later it was finally over.

I've already cancelled my sub, so my opinion is worth less than nothing (so why are you expressing it, then?), but... the way Jess shouted down Grubb and Jan was just disrespectful. It made Gerstmann's anti-Outer Wilds rants seem positively convivial.

Edit: Maybe "disrespectful" isn't the best word - some may infer that I'm talking about violating some sort of hierarchy, but that's certainly not the intent. "Anti-social" is probably better.

I actually immediately thought about Jeff and Outer Wilds. Same energy for me, hated it then and hate it now. Totally fine to register your opinion and complaints, but to use them as a bludgeon for twenty minutes any time someone clearly doesn’t agree with you, to the point people are clearly just avoiding stating their actual opinion because they don’t want the fight sucks.

Man that Immortality discussion was painful to listen to. Main critiques I gathered from Jess is it doesn't embrace the 'campiness' (which is fair) and that's he 'keeps making the same game'. Also a fair criticism, but considering so many games play similarly (especially within a genre), the criticism reads more like 'I don't like this style of game so it just gets monotonous to me', which again, is fine. But for me, I feel I'd see that, accept it and move on.

I think my main issue with the discussion is beyond that, Jess's "criticism" of the game doesn't really feel it's actually about the game itself. It's a lot of complaining about 'why do people praise this game I clearly don't like' and 'I don't like the praise Sam Barlow is getting for this game'. The former just feels like a very old and tired brand of internet criticism, and the latter just feels like some personal vendetta against Barlow, which I don't really get. I may be misremembering, but I think at some point she does say she doesn't follow Barlow outside the games he makes, as a way to make it seem like this isn't meant to be a 'personal attack', but honestly, it makes the discussion feel even more bizarre to me as to why it feels like she still has such an axe to grind here.

If she doesn't like the game and feels its overrated, and doesn't like Sam Barlow for whatever reasons, that's fine, but it's just tiring to hear her go around in circles stating the same thing again and again during that discussion.

I don't think this is her intent, but the argument starts feeling like her saying 'I'm the only one with the intellectual prowess to see through the flaws of this game, and everyone else praising this is too stupid to see the wool being pulled over their eyes'. Again, I don't think this is her intent, but it just comes off as feeling a bit condescending, especially when the actual criticisms she's bringing about the game specifically don't seem to match up with the level of vitriol she's spewing against it.

At least that's just me. I don't really have a 'dog in this race' as it were. Sam Barlow's games aren't really for me personally, but that discussion was just hard to listen to.

i think i'm out-immortality'd and i don't want to hear another discussion of it ever again on this site, sorry - this discussion was hard to listen to, and made me wish timestamps were a thing so i could just skip past it, which i never do for any podcast outside of spoilers. more talk about zaddies and stupid questions to ask your partner on long trips please

By all means, if the staff wants to go on a rant against a game, I’ll give it to them. Gerstmann certainly had his fair share of both old (“Nights into Dreams is bad and dumb”) and new (Outer Wilds not connecting for him at all) games where his opinion ran counter to critics at the time.

But yeah, the Immortality discussion just ran long. Hopefully a learning opportunity for current staff on how to move on from a topic. After a certain point Jess was just restating/rephrasing points she had already established, and there were only so many ways the other staff could keep restating “I’ll give it a shot, I’m curious to see where it goes.”

Regardless of whether you think Jess’ criticism was fair to the devs (I err on the side of “it was not”), circular/repetitive/argumentative discussion of the same game for like 20+ minutes is a rough listen.

Again, staff can have their rants, but for Immortality, Jess seems like she wants to go into full video essay, point-by-point argument mode. So either make a Hot Takeout about the game, or really prepare an anti-Immortality filibuster for Game of the Year. Bombcast probably isn’t the place for that length/degree of tearing into a game.

and how I feel about Mass Effect. It was so baffling to me how people were lifting those games up as some pinnacle of story telling and "the best Star Trek game" when to me it kinda just felt like a porn parody of Babylon 5 but without even delivering on the action front.

Having actually listened to Jess' "thoughts" on Immortality *once again*, I wonder if she'll ever learn to respectfully listen to others talking about something she doesn't like without shitting all over that?

The self-harm comment by Jess...wtf? The condescension comment even in itself suggests that she's genuinely wound-up by it all.

Jess? Get over it. It doesn't make for enjoyable listening.

Really wish that I engaged with the community on a regular basis and didn't just come out of the woodwork to be negative, but here I am. Will try and be on the constructive side, and I think for the most part I'm only echoing the sentiments of what other people have said. Here to add my +1.

The immortality discussion was extremely tough for me to get through. Jess's talking points were largely rehashed from last week, very circular, and just plain uncomfortable. Sometimes it's enjoyable listening to someone with an axe to grind, but this is just not one of those cases.

The most significant sticking point for me:

Jess (2:07:00 premium) - "I hope that when people do play it they attempt to see past the magic trick and apply some critical thinking and media awareness about what is going into their eyeballs"

Doesn't this seem a tad over the line with the whole condescension thing? First of all, the comparison of the game to a magic trick just seems overly reductive and disparaging for the sake of it. But this statement implies that people out there enjoying it aren't using any critical thinking? That the audience of this podcast needs to think harder about this game otherwise we might be tricked by the infamous magician Sam Barlow?

In trying to be constructive here, I'd suggest trying to lean away from too much focus on public reception of games? It might be unhealthy for discussion. I align with Jess on tons of stuff from games and politics alike. Love hearing her thoughts in general! Just seems like the focus wasn't where it needed to be this time around, and there needed to be more consciousness of how the other hosts were trying to steer discussion. I don't believe the vibe of the immortality segment matched the general tenor of the bombcast that I know and love.

Spot-on.

Think i'm at the point where i'll skip the Bombcast when Jess is a host. It's become painfull listening. The episode where she tells everyone to, 'get new friends', (while discussing Night in the Woods) had me skipping forward until the subject changed. This one took it to another level.

Listen back to yourself. Gain a little self reflection.

The Halo comparisons to the weapon durability was actually really good. As someone who hated the durability stuff in Breath of the Wild I appreciated that comparison. It's a neat way to look at it for sure but it really didn't change my opinion on it. Halo's weapons all felt unique and fun to use. Each felt different and the game usually had restocks of your favorites all around so if you wanted to stick with that particular weapon you could.

With BotW, all the weapons felt the same. The one-handed weapons all had the same moveset, so did the two-handed heavies and then the spear. That was it. Then you had mess of an inventory with tons of "spares" ready to go. I rather they have a set amount of weapons and each one matters in some way. "Forcing people to use other weapons" is better done through gameplay than some arbitrary durability system.

At a certain point I just didn't want to bother with combat anymore and that was just cutting out a large part of the game. It's interesting to think about and discuss the implications of that. How it's a commentary on the nature of violence and conflict. I'm sure you can write a bunch about that but in terms of a game system that's fun to engage with in an open world setting, I did not like it.

The DLC, however, used that system in a great way with those floor-based combat trials where you had to manage your resources. I had a blast with those and they made you think about how to approach those tailor-made encounters so you wouldn't use up too many resources. Your reward for doing them was getting a near-unbreakable Master Sword, which made the whole rest of the game a ton more fun.

I liked BotW but I was down on it more than most people on this site and elsewhere. I agree with Jess that I missed dungeons. As sacrilege as it sounds, I missed having stuff to do on that map. I rarely found climbing up mountains rewarding. A few spots did give good views and sometimes you did find something fun up there but the fidelty of the world didn't really impress all that much and the grasslands were extremely boring. So having proper dungeons around the map and interesting landmarks/treasures to make that exploration worth it would go a long way of moving my opinion from "merely liked" to "absolutely loved".

maybe sam barlow just wants to make a movie