Microsoft Digs Bigger Hole Over Used Games

While it remains to be seen, I think Microsoft (and hopefully Sony too) are on the right track here. I understand my purchasing habits aren't the same as everyone else's, but the only reason I ever buy a used game is because it's over a year old and local stores don't have a new copy in stock. On top of that, the only reason I buy physical copies of games is because they're either not available digitally or the digital version is significantly more expensive than a physical copy. I would love to just be able to build an account level digital library much like I have been doing on PC for a few years now. They don't even have to do crazy Steam-like sales on a digital store, just as long as they update prices realistically over time, and assure me that I don't lose access to a game if I have to delete it for storage reasons or my console dies. Also, how awesome would it be if you could rent or demo any game digitally, kind of like what PS+ does with their hour trials on select games. I never paid for Xbox Live Gold, and only briefly tried PS+ but I totally would day one if I could try any game before I bought, with the addition of never having to walk into Gamestop again (except for Nintendo titles, grumble grumble.)

I must have missed where Microsoft put out the official statement telling us what their plans are regarding used games... because prior to this statement, all ive heard is interview chatter and no press release, no microsoft exec on stage stating what the plan is. Can someone point it out to me where anything was said in an official capacity?

Otherwise, this is just getting way out of hand and folks need to wait for Microsoft to make an official statement. Cool your jets.

Honestly, who cares if they announce a bunch of awesome games at E3? The fact that Microsoft seems to think that will negate the concerns here is sort of insulting. The next Halo or Gears of War is not going to erase the reality of forced online and new fees if I want to play a used game.

I think this is a case of people (mostly game media people) mixing two subjects. 1 is what is the future of used games and 2, how Microsoft is providing information about its new console.

I won't touch the first subject because that is a major subject that will be debated for a long time.

However, I feel that a company should be given the right to release a product and its features as they choose. The xbox One (PS4) is not in stores today, so why does the media feel that they can demand all the details and if they don't get what they want, when they want it, that it is ok to call a company liars, thieves, evil doers, child rapists or whatever else crazy shit that has come spewing out of peoples twitter accounts.

This whole mess is Microsoft's own fault. They didn't bother to get ahead of the negative press that they must have know was coming. My best guess is that they are hammering out deals with different box stores so they can't announce anything right now. But to throw Mjr. Nelson to the pitchfork wielding masses with only a crappy soundbite is not how one should address this.

I understand the business decision behind it. Microsoft is effetely getting paid three times for each used game sale if the rumors are to believed. Once by the retail store to become an 'official partner'. Twice by the sale of the actual used game and finally from the 'license fee' required to play the game. And we all know how Microsoft likes to get paid from licenses.

@alanm26v5: Do you see a problem with a gaming future where you are not able to play the games you purchased 10-15 years ago if you choose to? Because that is the reality we are talking about here. I like the fact that I can pop my PS1 in and play Final Fantasy 7 if I choose to, even if it is more than 15 years old now. A console that requires constant online authentication is not going to provide that, because eventually those servers are going to go down.

I realize that the big money game companies love to sell us the same content as many times as possible, but I shouldn't need to see my money flushed down the toilet.

Yah, Honestly I think you are right, the ps4 sounds like it is meant to be very online, and when they said that the publisher can deside if a game will have DRM or not, then I just think it could be just like Microsofts system but with a choice for the publishers.

The difference is that i have and idea of what the ps4 will be like. The only thing I know about the XBLC is that it looks ugly, plays games I never buy, and I have to rebuy every single game i ever bought for the system if my XBox gamer profile gets hacked.

I almost get the sense this is all a reaction to the rumours that got out ahead of their announcement and they were probably planning to softly release this info sometime after their E3 conference.

Instead they've been forced into being seen to address the issue while putting out a behind the scenes message to all their PR to vaguely say they are supporting the used games scene.

Maybe they are still working out if they are going to backtrack or not it was certainly weird that Phil Harrison was pretty open about all this at the Xbox event while the support team twitter was simultaneuosly denying all knowledge of a used games fee.

It has been insulting and embarrassing watching MS handle this week.

If it was good news, they would never say: "We will disclose more information in the near future."

I haven't bought a used game in a decade, so this whole thing doesn't affect me in the least. Still, it's infuriating to see them fending off this shitstorm so ineptly.

No worries, in 10-15 years you can use your hundreds of dollars worth (maby thousends) gamesdisc's as beer mats. :P

That's exactly the point, though. There's been rumor and unofficial statements, and half-explanations, and people are whipped up into a fury about maybes and what-ifs. And the official statement that MS *does* decide to put out, in order to get everyone to "cool their jets" is just "Hey, what you heard was incorrect and incomplete" with no details to clarify or correct.

This has the potential to turn into a PR disaster of sorts, if it hasn't already.

Microsoft hasn't mentioned what their plans are with the patent they filed to spy on people with the Kinect for the MPAA to limit the number of people in a room watching a movie without purchasing additional licenses either.

And that happened.

watching the pre-xbox conf I think jeff said that it would be a bad idea to turn your back a bit to stores that sell your system,you still need to get them in the stores ect.. Microsoft has to know better than that to turn back at all to stores with used games.

Patrick on the attack! Very nice!

It was Phil Harrison that confimed their Pre-owned pay policy not some nobody. are Microsoft now calling him a liar

The All digital future is upon us.

@excast: I would imagine at that point, if the console manufacturers themselves haven't designed some sort of final firmware update to address that, there will be some sort of grey area solution, probably even with ways to re-download things unofficially. I have faith in a community of really smart people that like video games and their preservation to find a way.

It would be interesting to hear what developers and publishers think about this. Potentially they stand to benefit greatly if some of the used sales cash starts coming their way. On the flip side it might mean fewer overall new game sales.

I tend to buy games new with the knowledge that I can re-coup some of that money when I later sell them on eBay. If I'm no longer able to do that, it means I'm going to buy fewer games. I have a finite budget for games and that amount isn't going to go up.

Incredible speed with which the message Microsoft employees spread is being distanced from the current corporate view (even if they only denounce their own message without actually clarifying with a new message because they're in full on panic mode and have no idea what their new plan is).

In the end, used games aren't the big issue, but hopefully the noise has been loud enough to show MS they can't release a closed platform with physical items and get the benefit of a digital only service that steps away from first-sale doctrine style rights. Who knows, maybe one day they'll step back from their comments about Windows being a platform for ports of mobile phone games rather than core gaming experiences (but probably not, no current reports of pigs flying).

I am Jack's utter contempt & disgust. Hell, I'm surprised nobody is raising a furious stink about the toss out of backwards compatibility! I've got a significant investment in 360 games, some I haven't even played yet. I was going to to play those on the new Xbox...until they just threw the feauture out the window. That was the only thing I cared about. Now my Collectors Editions of Fallout: New Vegas, Duke Nukem, Alan Wake, Mass Effect 2...well in a few years from now it'll be worthless land fill because nobody will be able to use them as the 360 device fades into the sunset. What's the point in buying games if I have to chuck them when the Console goes away? It's getting close to the point where I might start going to Pirate Bay for my gaming needs. Had I the PC version of my collectible's, I wouldn't feel so fucked over by Mr. Softy. I don't care about its TV features. I wonder if they'll start bricking 360s at some point in the future for those that don't upgrade. And how much more is the fucking monthly going to be for XBL with all those crap-ass features they've tacked on? Screw Microsoft.

Microsoft is backpedaling on Windows 8 by adding the Start button back in for no good reason (it fixes nothing).

Microsoft backpedaled on the enthusiast program for early updates they promised before the launch of Windows Phone 8.

I would rather see the Xbox team be vague now in order to continue hammering out the details, than come out and say something definitive now only to do something else come November.

YES! Thank god, I'm NOT the only one saying this.

It amazes me how many people are ignoring this fact because so many gamers are willing to just toss a system for the next great thing.

As someone who owns nearly every system from the 2600 to the Current Generation, I can't stand the idea that a console would suddenly make unplayable games that I payed 1000s of dollars for, twenty years from now, when they think the Xbone servers are economically unfeasable to keep running because they're in the middle of Xtwo's console cycle.

I don't buy many, if any, current gen. used games, however, I buy many used games I missed out on previously. I picked up SMT: Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2 a few months back after getting around to Persona 4 because of the GB Endurance Run. Some will argue that the death or rarity is a good thing, and it would be, IF the authentication servers weren't an issue.

This isn't a likely scenario for me to discover a missed gem for the Xbone and still be able to buy it near the end of the Xtwo console because, just like the first Xbox's Live got turned off during the 360 generation, Xbone's authentication servers will become unprofitable to keep running.

They just CAN'T keep these things up indefinitely. I doubt they'd come out right now and say "whenever we decide to turn off the authentication servers we'll remove the DRM from those Xbone games so you can still reinstall them from the disc or not have to worry about the game going away when it can't do its daily/weekly/yearly or whatever DRM check". Publishers would have a shit fit.

The idea of a digital only console with server based DRM is flat out saying 'this content is disposable and will not exist down the line'. Hilariously, thank god for pirates in this instance, because they're going to basically be doing historical preservation on these titles by removing the DRM.

I just can't spend 1000s of dollars on games that will go away, for an extended rental period. At this moment I'm holding my breath for Sony to come out and sanely show that their system will have a shelf life that extends beyond the system's own generation. Otherwise, it will likely be just the WiiU for me, and a PC with only DRM free games and old steam games that are on the crazy cheap steam sales.

The only thing that could turn me around on the Xbone (and if the PS4 as well if it goes this route) is if, 2 years into the console there are the crazy cheap steam-like sales on those consoles, and even then, I will only be buying (renting really) those games.

It sucks that the majority of gamers are willing to just toss aside games and never look back.

I seriously can't think of a more disappointing technology announcement ever, were supposed to be excited for the Xbox One. But as someone who has played almost exclusively on a 360 since 2006 I am really considering a PS4 next generation.

If Microsoft & Sony continue down this path I'll have sit down and seriously calculate the upfront cost of building a gaming rig and the costs of buying off steam, against the lower upfront cost of a console and higher games over the period.

Throw in the excellent reputation of Valve and ability to upgrade a gaming rig I think MS & Sony may lose out. Dear me Valve you have a massive opportunity with the Steambox, why are you not here saving us from the dark forces?

I'm glad you addressed this in the way that you did, Patrick. Good stuff. All too often press releases get passed along on other sites without any effort to point out factual inaccuracies.

@patrickklepek You are the man. Thanks for standing up for consumers and pointing out how unacceptable answers like that are. Honesty goes a long way in my eyes and will be the deciding factor on which system I choose this generation. I will always be a fan of your work and of the content created at Giantbomb.

@excast: For you, For me, yes. However, I think there are quite a few who would toss their rights for the new Halo or Gears. Hell, theres a guy at my workplace who HAAAATES the used games schemes floating around, yet... Forza is coming to the Xbone, so he'll get it anyway. People take a stand until they feel it's not worth it.

For me, that temptation game will be Alan Wake 2... If MS announces that, I don't know what I'll do. At the moment I tell myself I'll wait and hope it also comes to PC. If not, I'll probably get a cheap Xbone and buy it when the price of the game drops to 20. That is... if games ever drop that low on console digital marketplaces.

They should have a system in place where you can lend a license of a game to a friend for a while like the Kindle. And then have an online store that operates similar to Steam. And be ALL digital.

Its just looking more and more like a no-buy for me XboxUno.

I think the ending line should be "try a little more clarity next time" - as it stands the whole article has this Kotaku vibe to it. I was hoping Patrick would be a little above pointing fingers but whatever. They didn't technically lie about anything yet, just remained extremely vague in their information which sucks of course, but thats a lot different than lying.

Edit:

@patrickklepek hey Patrick I actually hope you read this. I respect you as a writer and a news guy but don't fall down this rabbit hole, you're better than this man. This is a news story on Giant Bomb, and the only thing I learned from it is that you have some negative feelings for the way Microsoft is handling the situation. Before reading this I knew that MS weren't clear on their always online and used game policy - all this article did was tell me that they're still not clear and we should wait for an official announcement. Except you peppered it with a bunch of needlessly personal attacks. Stay classy Patrick. When there is something of note to report on then do it, but don't write sensationalist articles that do nothing to expand the knowledge of the audience and mainly serve as a vehicle for your own personal feelings on the matter. I don't mind reading that stuff on your Tumblr but here on GB I like to actually read noteworthy news.

Thats my mini rant.

Sounds to me like MS are colluding with publishers and distributors to keep the price of this digital good artificially high. If so, I hope the DoJ look into it, you know, after they're done with Apple.

It feels kind of weird to watch everyone so pissed off and for myself to not care at all about used games or if I lose my game library at some point 10 years from now. These are games that I will most likely not want to play again because I have a bunch of new games to play. None of this matters at all to me personally. It would be cool to have access to and play everything forever I guess, but we are in a new digital age and I'll willingly sacrifice some niceties to not have physical media to ever deal with. I'm also buying both consoles at launch regardless of about ... anything. I don't care about console wars or fanboys. I play what I want on what I want. Everything else that I don't want or don't like, I don't buy or support.

Considering Valve is already distancing itself from the 'Piston' / 'Steambox', I'd say that idea is dead already.

Really, is there a link to a story? Well I'd understand them stepping away from the piston, that felt like Xi3 trying to hop on to Valve's coattails to get some publicity for a product they've been touting for a long time now.

I hope Valve follows through with a Steambox though, running on linux it'd be an enticing proposition.

@finaldasa: I wish more of the core audience shared your sense of reason. In part I don't blame so many people for getting on the flame wagon because knee-jerk articles like this only fuel the fire.

I love the whole bomb crew but the way this article is framed comes off as a journalist whose feelings got hurt over a factual statement that wasn't aimed at attacking or blaming any one media outlet in particular - or the media in general at all. The fact is the various reports that are out there ARE inaccurate and incomplete, and YES Microsoft is in part to blame for that but they're not putting the blame on anyone else and are actually addressing the current situation that has been created. Sometimes the answer is no answer. The media is to blame for instigating this whole debate in the first place, used game licenses wasn't a part of either MS or Sony's launch event or messaging. Neither MS nor Sony are obliged to tell the press anything until they want or need to and all this pouting and negative rage from the media just comes off as petulance. I mean holy meatboys they finally release an honest statement that suggests they don't have a definitive answer and still get flamed by the same journalists who are supposed to uphold the integrity of journalism.

We get it, it's exciting times and we want answers and we want them now. It's been less than 80 HOURS since the initial reveal of a console that is half a YEAR away from even being released, gosh darnit can we all just chill the heck out before inciting a mob to lynch a console before its even born?

Aside from all of this i don't quite understand this trumped up "loss of consumer rights" argument anyway as it pertains to licensing video games. I for one enjoy video games, I respect the craft and happily pay to compensate the hard working dudes and dudettes who make them. I think the power that companies like GameStop have in deciding what content and what kinds of games can be published based on their monopoly-like stranglehold on distribution is bad for the industry and steps like used games licensing actually helps reduce their power and actually feeds back into the developers who are making the content we all enjoy, rather than lining the pockets of distributors like GameStop.

Taken in another context, look at the music industry. The shift to digital distribution and licensed music use took the power away from over charging distribution chains, forced publishers to be more responsible, gave more power back to the artists who are actually making the content and made the consumer experience far more convenient in the process. I fully acknowledge that is not a perfect model, but it worked and it made things better.

Look at Steam, the most beloved of PC models. Ask anyone who uses it if they feel they are losing their consumer rights because they can't trade their games. Ask anyone who uses it if they don't think it's fair the way Steam licenses games to your account that you can use anywhere on anyone else's system. It works and it is great. Why is everyone so afraid of this?

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/24/4362680/xbox-one-games-will-require-regular-authentication-checks-used-games

Polygon is now reporting that there won't be a fee, but there will be a need for a regular Internet check in. It's amazing that a company with so much time and so many resources can seem to have absolutely no idea what is going on.

I'm really confused by this sentiment. You don't want Sony and Microsoft to adapt to a system where you're just buying and downloading digital licenses, where you're required to have an internet connection and dependent on server checks and for downloads, and you potentially can't sell back, borrow, or buy used games. Yet this is exactly what Steam is.

Exactly.

"Reports about our policies for trade in and resale are inaccurate and incomplete."

Well, whose fault is that? No one but Microsoft. And the fact that they're still beating around the bush and not coming out and saying "hey, this is exactly how it's going to work" makes it feel even more shaddy.

Meaning, it's either going to REALLY piss off consumers when they do say and they want to wait until closer to launch to slow word of mouth or they're just gauging their audience's response to an ambiguous stance on used games and they'll then modify they're plans subject to that response later.

I think both scenarios are equally likely.

I'm not nearly as concerned with used games as I am with owning my games and being able to play them on my system for decades to come. An online registration check, no matter the low frequency, means that other people are able to take my single player games away from me on their whim. Think about EA shutting down servers or the THQ bankruptcy. Now we won't just lose online functionality; we'll lose the entire game including single player! I have an archive of PS1, PS2 and XBOX games as well as a spare copy of each system and 2 controllers for each system sitting in my closet for when the systems become discontinued. I want to be able to show my friends, children and grandchildren the games I love and this online, games as a service model won't allow that to happen any more.

Couldn't disagree more with Patrick on this one. Until Microsoft actually reveals the policy, this is largely a case of the press treating speculation as inevitable truth. Instead of saying: "Hey, clearly Microsoft doesn't know what the policy is right now so we should say that and wait until they do," many games "journalists" are making assumptions and then reporting them as fact. Then when those "facts" turn out to be wrong, they come up with more speculation and repeat the process.

Could Microsoft have handled this better? Absolutely. But don't put the blame solely on them. Everyone needs to chill out and see what the policy actually is before bashing it into oblivion.

Patrick hit the nail on the head, "Sorry, Microsoft. It’s your problem, not mine. Try a little honesty next time?" Microsoft knew this issue was a hot-button topic. How could they have not one had answer ready when every media member asked about the used games issue? Even if the answer was, "This issue will be talked about before or at E3." It could have been an answer we wouldn't have liked to hear but it would have been one answer with a timeline where we would get some clarity.

Used games, backwards compatibility, and system durability are very important issues to me, even though most in the media overwhelmingly tend to dismiss long term viability and focus on the 'Now.'

I'm sure many consumers feel the same way, but just aren't vocal about it. Microsoft are trying to be good guys for their game publishers and combat used game sales, but they need to come clean with exactly what their plan is. If it's fair, core gamers will come around. Sony is simply not going to go first and mitigate the damage for them - they have the last spot at E3.

Anyway, I usually end up investing in all consoles years after they debut. I've never paid for Gold, though, when such a good alternative exists. Microsoft need to show some generousity to its customers if it wants more people like me to support it.

@ei8htbit: How dare you use logic and act rational. We have to hate microsoft no matter what they do and act like petulant fucking children.

There are a massive number of people on the internet who are just bitching up a storm right now forgetting that this thing isn't even out, nothing is confirmed, nothing is set in stone. Calm down and take a break. Still amazes me how Sony got hardly any heat for their awful conference that was filled with nothing but hype vids and no actual content of merit but MS gets jumped on when they at least showed something in a functional usable format. Say what you will about the TV stuff but at least it was a working object and not an infograph and a 30 second clip...

The real story here is how entitled people feel to LUXURY items that they are not required in any way to use or interact with if they don't want to. The bitching over these devices is unreal. If people honestly don't like what MS is doing they should vote with their wallets instead of blathering on about it on twitter. Especially when we're still half a year from the launch of these things.

So either they're still in talks with retailers about used games OR they've gauged public reaction and are trying to retool (or at least re-package) their plan for used games.

The funny thing is. If the device didn't have a blu-ray drive and games would have to be loaded online (think XBLA), there would be no used games market at all and no one would complain.

Well other than the people who couldn't buy the console in the first place because of bad/unreliable internet.

And I'm pretty sure that's how PS5 and whatever comes after XBOX One (if anything) will look like. No optical drive, download only.

I love it when Patrick is hard-hitting, but I think he's kinda blowing things a little out of proportion. The message Major Nelson released seems perfectly moderate and sensible given the huge initial mishandling of the situation by various tentacles of the Microsoft octopus. Yeah, Microsoft screwed up, but I don't think there's anything wrong with doing damage-control.

Polygon says we can buy used games and pay no extra fee. http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/24/4362680/xbox-one-games-will-require-regular-authentication-checks-used-games

Still need an online connection though.

@fitzgerald said:

So what you're saying is, he's being Patrick.

IFwhat The Escapist reported is true, could this be considered price fixing on Microsoft's part? The logic being that they are preventing the market more deciding the cost of a used game and some how effecting Right of First Sale.:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/124323-Update-Xbox-One-To-Take-Cut-With-Every-Pre-Owned-Sale

And don't even get me started on possible privacy concerns involved with the Kinect being alwasy powered on. Always watching, always judging.