Just wondering if anyone else is partaking in the true hunt. If you're curious how PvP works it is basically as follows: The host no longer has any advantage over the invader, however the invader can only invade if a "Sinister Bell" has been rung. Sinister Bells only show up as NPCs that spawn when anyone rings a bell (not sure if it is random or not) or of course being rung by another player. What this ultimately means is that solo players don't get invaded outside of a few specific areas (probably changes in NG+) so as an invader you're either invading 2-3 players (apparently it's possible for another invader to show up so you can have 2v2s and 3v2s and so on) or another person trying to invade. The areas that already have bells seem to just be the dueling hubs at this point.

SL restrictions seem much broader so it's quite possible to invade down like 15 levels, obviously having to fight 2-3 people at once is the main counter to this. Since there's no backstabs the vast majority of the bullshit in PvP is gone, also I highly doubt the whole "Manners" thing is going to be present here for the most part, it's a brawl until you either murder the opponent or they run out of healing items. In 3v1 situations they basically can stunlock you with guns so you have to be very careful until they run out of ammo (well technically they can't but not too many people utilize that feature/it hurts them), but 2v1 seems like a fair enough fight since I just completely annihilate most people in 1v1s due to having a good build. Hitboxes/lag are still a thing but it's not too bad, actually the worst part is the framerate which I imagine goes down to low single digits in 5 player games.

There are some ridiculously enormous, confusing zones in the game (like 2-3 times the size of 5-2, Huntsman's Copse and whatever Sif's woods are called) so I imagine it's quite possible to have an invasion where you run on one side of the map forever and the other person runs on the other side forever and you never actually find each other. This is actually kind of cool in my opinion, adds a lot more tension to the exploration phase and less of a "check list" of potential areas where the person could be. Also protip if you can manage to invade it's a really good way to scout out a new area and figure out where the boss is and so on (though in the Woods you'll most likely just get lost).

IMPORTANT EDIT: It seems at least at higher levels your HP as an invader is greatly reduced, not sure what dictates this.

I don't dig it so far. Mainly because it's not there if you do not choose to engage with it. I understand that is what a lot of people wanted out of the Souls series, being able to play solo and 'keep assholes out of their game', but I really liked that aspect of it. I haven't been invaded in 15 hours of play. I will now have to ring the Sinister Bell constantly in hopes of either being invaded or finding other people to invade, who will be in pairs as you said. I'm not looking forward to that.

To be honest, invasions feel completely gimped right now. I hope you are correct and it opens up in NG+ so that you're just available to be invaded all the time. Or if you have a certain amount of Insight on you, or whatever.

Souls games without invasions are far worse for it. Limiting it to ng+ is a terrible idea as well. They already made mistakes like that in DSII.

There are quite a few bosses/areas that people won't be able to beat by themselves, hence why the system works. Also killing easy prey is pretty boring to begin with so it makes your life more interesting as a hunter. Also did I mention the combat doesn't suck.

There does seem to he a good invasion area later in the game that I might try out. But yeah in the early parts if people are just summoning right outside the boss door they can run up and enter before you have the chance to attack them.

That is pretty much me right there, though minus thinking they were assholes or anything. I enjoy playing the game with the notes and death blood stains and random momentary white phantoms.

But when I would be doing something specific, making a run to a boss, or exploring a new area or soul farming if I wasn't doing so well and someone came into my game, stopped me from doing that and killed me, it was annoying, especially if it involved needing to go a long way to get back to where I was.

But the only way to stop that from happening was being in offline mode which would take away the notes and blood stains and such as well, or in the case of Dark Souls be in hollow form but that would take away the NPC summon signs if I felt I needed them.

I didn't hate fighting people or anything, I just hated that there had to be a trade off, and now there doesn't have to be, at least for me or people like me. However for my NG+ runs or secondary characters I did at that point enjoy leaving myself open for invasion as an added challenge, plus some fights could get crazy some times which was nice.

It sucks that they didn't find a better middle ground though if PVP people like yourself and others aren't finding it to their liking.

@fredchuckdave: Pretty 'meh' on the whole thing, the cheap shit you're doing where you abuse enemy placement since they don't attack you is the exact reason I thought the PvP was stupid in the original. You would have lost had you been unable to go hide behind enemies that were ignoring you near the end. That was a lame mechanic in the previous games, and it's still a lame mechanic now. It's not true PvP when mobs can still affect the outcome. Either everyone should have to deal with them, or no one should.

@gravytrain: I would have lost a 2v1? The shame. Also in a vanilla setting on flat terrain I would probably win about 85% of the time against those two, but that's not exactly the point; combat in and of itself is only interesting in a 1v1 against a competent player, what makes it fun in invasions is figuring out where to ambush the opposing players and instead of having like a 3 minute walk to the boss now they might have a 20 minute walk and so on.

@fredchuckdave: I'm not saying you would have lost in a flat land area. In that scenario however had the mobs not been there you would have lost. Do you feel if it was a 1v1 that abusing mobs would also be fair? I'm just not impressed by PvP designed around the abuse of PvE mobs.

@gravytrain: That's just how invasions work most of the time, either you have OP stuff or are way better than the opponents or you win via patience; been like that forever. In this case you can't just one-two shot people with backstabs or lagstabs and while parrying is useful it usually doesn't outright kill hunters. There's not as much OP stuff in this game as far as I can tell so the experience is much more tactical.

I'm only roughly 20 hours in now, but if you thought DSII limited invasions too much, you are flat out going to hate Bloodborne because out of ~3 hours actively using the Sinister Bell, I've invaded someone once, and there were two of them. And like I said, I haven't been invaded myself and probably never will be. I heard there are Oaths dedicated to invasions, so I hope that'll open it up more, but I have to say this pretty much sucks so far. Arena PvP was never my thing. I was more of a Sentinel/Bell Keeper/Invasion type of player. I liked the intertwine between the regular game and PvP. But from what I've heard, if you actively want to take part in PvP, it's all Arena-type stuff where it's at.

@zevvion: Arena/duel PVP is the worst.

@hassun: We're like-minded on that. Again, haven't seen any of it myself though, so just speculating. It might be more Shaded Woods/Bell Keeper style. Still, I liked Dark Souls' vast number of PvP options. I'm also missing the 'character' that the other Souls games had. Red Phantom, this guy is here to kill you, Grey Phantom, this guy is here to defend the area, Blue Phantom, this guy is here to defend you etc.

@zevvion: No you can invade anywhere, though you'll be around midgame or so before you're in the really good zones for it (not the "arena" zone(s)); I suspect as time goes on it will even out a bit and basically any mid to lategame area will be easy enough to invade. It should be mentioned that just using an item once and then being free to do whatever you want greatly improves the system over sitting there spamming one item constantly, basically at the beginning of a zone you make a decision to be a co-op guy or an invader guy and then you keep playing the game as normal instead of sitting around doing nothing. Of course as an invader you get an invaluable amount of information about the level before you've even done it yourself which is nice, like a hyper exploration high. In my present zone the average person I invade lasts about one minute before they die and it is only like 1-3 minutes between invasions.

@fredchuckdave: Nice to see that they [FROM] found a way to remove must of the bullshittery from PvP spammers. It was really what made not want to be of Dark Souls pvp community.

As far as manners goes then I don't remember ever invading or being being invaded on Demon's Souls where I got hate mail for either healing or having my co-op buddy help me with the invader. Why people saw the need to invent these duel rules when moving on to Dark Souls is something I will never understand. You got invaded or invaded someone. Why wouldn't use anything in your arsenal to make sure you're victorious in your "mission."

On a different note. Have you data mined the game at all. I am wondering where the soft cap on attributes were. In previous game they were always around the 20-35 range.

@mordukai: It seems like it's a lot higher, at least 50 on stat caps (vitality might scale down a little faster). Still getting 2 attack on my weapon on some levels and I'm above 40 strength.

@fredchuckdave: So far I've been dumping my points into vitality and endurance. I've put some points in bloodtinge to use a pistol I got. I think once I get my endurance to 20 I'll start putting points into strength.

@mordukai: Endurance seems sketchy to me, 10 Endurance is enough for as many rolls as you would get for having like 30 or so in another Souls game and there's only a handful of enemies/bosses that have wide enough openings for the number of weapon swings to matter. It could matter in PvP in NG+ at some point but it doesn't seem like a huge deal for NG yet either.

@fredchuckdave: Ok. thanks for the info.

Do you think since they took out traditional magic from the game, then people won't take to the pvp build as the previous ones did.

@mordukai: Stats get weaker past 25 and 50, however the 25-50 range is still quite valuable in this game.

@hassun: why, proper duels are the only pvp I am interested in. Of course I invade, but few good fights comes out of it.

@fredchuckdave: So it seems from what you're saying that soft cap is 25 and hard cap 50. Good to know.

I was having fun invading in the optional nightmare area. Getting a successful hit with the numbing mist and watching the other player freak out when they try to heal is hilarious.

@mordukai: Soft caps are mostly at 25. There is a thread on this page about them.

Also, people who invade you and complain after are idiots. The 'manners' are, as an invading player you often bow to signal good will for a fair fight. If you bow back, the fight is on. If you heal then, that is considered inappropriate because you agreed to a duel. If you see an invader and just go attack him, it is clear you are not interested in a duel and he shouldn't complain that you healed or whatever else. At that point, he is just invading you and should accept any means of defeat.

To note, I've had my fair share of fights in DSII where I signaled a 'no' to a bowing invader and 'pointed' to a place. They did not attack me until I reached the place, which often happend to be where I dropped my souls. I pick them up, head to the bonfire, bow there and we fight. It is manners should as those that make the community great. It's also why Souls games on PC will never be as great as on consoles because to this day, manners are still not present in the PC version of DSII and I still encounter cheaters.

The PvP has always been terrible in these games. The networking is never good enough to make it anywhere near a fair fight, mooting the 'get good' dismissal entirely, and being invaded without the ability to choose whether or not to indulge the risk added an unnecessary layer of tension to games that are already filled with incredibly tense situations. The only thing that makes it bearable are the barriers, either Humanity or in this case the Bell system, that means if you really are having trouble you get the chance at help, with the added risk of invasion. The Dark Souls 2 method where you could be invaded Just Whenever was trash, especially with the Soul Level system, which just made general contact between players who do want to participate or cooperate needlessly complicated.

@haniball: Duels have their place but for me I want the PVP to be perfectly interwoven with the game's story. The covenants are a great system for that too. Not a single one of the greatest/most fun/awesome/thrilling PVP fights I have had happened in duels. Sure some opponents are more courteous than others (waiting until you kill the PVE enemies in the area, bowing to you, etc.) but even then I like nothing more than (covenant based) invasions. When I PVP in a souls games I expect no quarter or warning or 'classy' behaviour. As long as it is within the rules of the game I'm all for it.

I just got invaded for the first time and small weapons seem unbelievably weak to mashing gunshots. While being carved up I just pressed L2 a lot and a shot eventually sneaked out, putting my invader in Visceral state, making for an easy kill.

@viciousbearmauling: Yeah it's supposed to punish R1 spammers, works good at low levels but weapons get too damaging later on.

Instant heal sucks, but this is all going to be patched so everyone needs to calm down, and stop acting like this is the final product. Patches dramatically change PVP for the better as shown with DeS and DS in the past.

Canon is so much fun in PvP. Dear lord, having someone dash into my face, only to be fed a fucking cannon ball is hilarious and surprisingly effective.