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    Bloodborne

    Game » consists of 5 releases. Released Mar 24, 2015

    An action role playing game by FromSoftware, marking the studio's debut on the PlayStation 4. It shares creative roots, as well as gameplay elements, with the Souls series.

    The woes of a passive shield player

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    RagingFlower

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    #1  Edited By RagingFlower

    Hey folks,

    I've been playing and platinum-ing the Souls games since Demon's, and it's become painfully clear to me that I thrived on being a slow, passive player. Yes, I hid behind a shield. I'd use bows when possible. Spells weren't out of the question either. Whatever worked, it worked for me. I felt like I got these games, but clearly the devs of Bloodborne saw fit to correct me.

    I'm having a serious problem adjusting to this play-style they seem to be forcing on everyone who plays the game. I by some miracle killed the second boss "Father" in one shot, but it all went downhill from there. I'm able to get through levels without more than a death or two, but the bosses man. I can't get these guys. Blood-starved beast just tore the shit out of me and I went into Undead Giant with a bad mood, and just sort of bum-rushed him with my head totally turned off for about 20 deaths until he fell over. I'm not getting it, it's not satisfying when I finally win.

    I'm not asking for any tips on how to adjust, my reaction time is just too piss-poor to really work it out. Just curious how people think of the stripped-down options in bloodborne, and what it does to the variety of character builds out there. I honestly am a little bummed at how few options to combat there seem to be, but I don't blame it for all my deaths to bosses. That's kind of just on me.

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    TobbRobb

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    @ragingflower: Someone else with more experience can probably be more helpful, but I played maybe an hour or so at a friends house and fought a pretty fast boss Darkbeast among other things.

    With the very powerful dodge you have and moderately open space, you can kiiiinda simulate the passive experience by playing keepaway. If you just back off out of the bosses range you can probably observe for a long time before any reaction at all is required. And many enemies leave themselves open to dash in and attack them if you just make them miss attacks from pure distance. That takes less reaction and more planning.

    The timing on the dodges and gunshot parry thingy seemed pretty forgiving, so if you start doing things a little bit preemptively it can help cover for slower reflexes.

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    Wemibelle

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    @ragingflower: This lack of build variety didn't really bother me during my playthrough (which I just finished today), but I could see it getting a bit "bleh" in future playthroughs. As someone who long ago gave up on using a shield in Souls games, I also didn't have much trouble adjusting. For someone like you who relied heavily on shields, however, I could see it being a bit tricky.

    Parrying is a HUGE boon in certain boss fights, but it's far from necessary in all but one or two. Most of the bosses I managed to beat by staying just on the edge of their attack range (after some experimentation to figure out what this was) and poking in during long recovery animations to keep from getting hit. Many of the bigger, slower bosses can be trivialized by standing behind them or to their side to mitigate many of the attacks they can use. Faster bosses, like the Father fight you mentioned, are going to force you to learn effective dodging, I'm afraid. While I managed to beat that fight originally by using objects to keep him away from me, future encounters will not be so generous. The final boss, in particular, is one you likely won't beat without parrying.

    Just keep plugging away and try to figure out the timing/invincibility frames on dashes (spamming is also sometimes effective). Each boss will be somewhat of a learning process but a few general strategies--hang back whenever possible, attack during particularly vulnerable periods, etc.--will help in nearly every boss fight in the game. You mentioned Blood-starved Beast, which is actually an excellent boss to practice parrying on due to his long attack animations. Maybe give that a shot.

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    SethPhotopoulos

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    #4  Edited By SethPhotopoulos

    In the Dark Souls games I played as a tank, but in Demon's Souls I went in as the speedy thief. Bloodborne has reminded me more of Demon's Souls in that way and I've been fine with that.

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    Crembaw

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    #5  Edited By Crembaw

    It is simply time to learn the aeons-fabled art of Getting Good, or alternatively mashing the Circle Button until something clicks and it all makes sense for some reason.

    At least, that's how it happened to me.

    Also, try out the guns. I know tanky shield play didn't usually parry, but if you can learn the timing on the guns it's functionally the same thing, and it's often critical to avoiding damage.

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    CaLe

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    #6  Edited By CaLe

    It's not all that different to how I played the previous games, but the fact I can't rely on mitigating damage by just standing and watching gives me the feeling that each victory is somewhat more deserved. The thing is that at some point everything comes down to timing a button press to either avoid or riposte an attacking animation, so vigilance is much more important. I've never had an issue with my reaction time when it comes to games, however with the way this game encourages aggressiveness I've found most of my trouble in knowing when and when not to unleash that. Most of my deaths have come through being overly aggressive, because there's no shield to save me when I went one swing too far, something I could count on in the previous games. It's different, but I do like that feeling of being more of as Victorian-era badass beast hunter rather than a plodding knight.

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    Whitestripes09

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    I'm the opposite, I'm in heaven right now. I've always wanted a souls game with this sort of quick dodging element. It's hard.... but it's very satisfying to me dodging out of a massive combo or massive hit, then just going to town on someone. The only souls game I finished was demon's souls and I ran a high dex build with an emphasis on mobility with the two katanas in the game, so I was kind of already used to a certain way of playing Demon's Souls that by the time Dark Souls came out, I was in for a shocker where rolling was a bit harder and the game seemed to be easier if you ran a sword/shield build with high strength and defense stats.

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    mordukai

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    #8  Edited By mordukai

    Seems like your frustration is talking right now more then your logic.

    I won't come and say that I never used shields, I have, as many other players have done too. To me though I always looked as a shield more as a parrying tool or a boss defense tool more then just a windshield I need to hid behind 100% of the time. Most of the time I carried the shield appropriate for that specific area.

    As I moved from Demon's Souls to Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 I noticed that I was slowly weaning myself off of using them so maybe that's why I acclimated to quickly to Bloodborne's play style.

    Since you genuinely sound like you see this game through then I say that maybe you're just need to look at your situation from a different angle. I think you're focusing too much on not having shields then accepting the fact that you don't have them anymore. Just go forward from now knowing that you do not have shields and you somehow need to find a new play style.

    Personally I feel that FROM showed a lot of balls, and a ton of trust in their fans, with pretty much taking a tool that was the center piece to many players and basically said "Adopt, or you're not going to survive."

    I really hope you find you're "new groove" and keep playing.

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    ShadowConqueror

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    #9  Edited By ShadowConqueror

    I was exactly the same kind of player in Dark Souls, but Bloodborne broke me of that. It took some early beatings, but I managed to get a hang of the faster, more active pace. Just keep playing and you'll get it.

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    Ares42

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    Having just finished the game I'm sorta torn about it. I really wanna jump back in and check out the stuff I know I missed etc, but knowing I'll pretty much play the exact same character, executing most encounters in the exact same way again is making me reluctant. I guess I could try a strength build, but after playing with the blades I'm having a hard time seeing myself not getting frustrated with pretty much any other weapon.

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    Teddie

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    I'm just going to reiterate something I read elsewhere because it seems a lot of people don't try this out naturally: Dodge into the attacks.

    Basically, your invincibility is at the start of the roll, not the end. This means when you dodge back, you absolutely need to be entirely out of range of the attack, or you're getting hit (and a lot of bosses have follow up attacks, so if you're still in front of them you're still likely going to get hit). Blood-starved Beast actually didn't get a single hit on me when I was doing that, so I only had to worry about staying healed up during the last phase. Then again, if you can't react in time to that bosses' attacks which all have huge wind up times etc, you're not going to get much further.

    I've never played a Souls game without a shield, and I hated my first play session of Bloodborne. As much as reviewers seem to keep saying "This is 100% a Souls game!", you really shouldn't try to apply much of your past knowledge to this game. Experiment, look up some gameplay tips, watch some videos if you need to. You'll get the hang of it when you play by its rules.

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    shinjin977

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    #12  Edited By shinjin977

    @ragingflower: I am sorry you are having a hard time adjusting duder. You can technically still play a slow, methodical style in this game. The answer to that is to use the spear weapon. Yes you do not have a shield anymore but you can absolutely use the guns as a shield replacement. No, I am not talking about using the parry. Most enemies get stagger from a single shot from the gun, so you can use it to replace the stagger after they hit the shield and then go in with the long range of your spear. This method works. A bit scarier than using a shield and rely pretty heavily on your good sense of distance but this is pretty much DS with a shield play style. And once you get the rune that regen you bullet after a parry, you pretty much have unlimited bullets.

    And yes it is absolutely possible to go gun spec in this game or even arcane. Make use of your runes and instead of using shot gun try repeater or flame thrower.

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    jclane

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    I can honestly say as even someone who mostly went shieldless and roll/dodge heavy in DeS/Dark 1/2, this game is still kicking my ass. I think a large part of it is that I never realized how docile a lot of the enemies were in those games. Bloodborne's rogues gallery rarely give you a moment to breathe, that is especially true with the bosses. It might be too early to tell, but I can say confidently that this game is easily harder than Dark Souls 2, though how it'll rank against the other 2 souls games remains to be seen.

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    Zevvion

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    #14  Edited By Zevvion

    As someone who didn't play much with a shield in previous games, I find Bloodborne to be one of the easier games in the series actually, but I'm only halfway or so. There wasn't really a boss that frustrated me so far and I've beaten all but one of them on the first try.

    Playstyles do matter apparently. After I played Bloodborne for the first time, I was expecting to read people say the game was too easy, but found out a lot of people think it's actually the hardest game in the series. Somewhere I suspect, looking at how the progression in build, Miyazaki wanted to stop shield users and start playing his game how he 'intended'. The shield was supposed to be there for parrying and blocking when overwhelmed, but it turned out players used it 95% of the time to wait out attacks and be passive. The shield description in Bloodborne makes a joke out of it even. Coupled with criticism a lot of bosses have gotten over time where shields weren't very viable such as Four Kings. It is supposed to be the earliest boss you tackle before the Great Bosses, yet a lot of people saved him for last because they couldn't deal with him because the passive playstyle didn't work there. Smelter Demon is another such boss, Ruin Sentinels too. And while Miyazaki didn't actively work on that game, he made his own version of the Ruin Sentinels to boot.

    From what I gather, Bloodborne seems designed to force people to play the game the way he intended. I think that's fine on some level, because now we can finally put the long winded discussions to rest about boss designs in the Souls games being bad because the shield doesn't work. It was your own fault all along. But on the other hand, there still doesn't seem to be a whole lot of different builds possible so far. I had some ideas for a couple, there is definitely some variety, but it's hard to argue it is much less than previous games.

    @jclane That's where I would disagree. None of the bosses in Bloodborne are any challenge so far. And the exact same parrying strategy works for everything. I think Bloodborne is one of the easier Souls games made yet.

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    jclane

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    @zevvion: To each their own. Amelia gave me more trouble than any Dark 2 boss save Smelter, the Ancient Dragon and the DLC bosses, and I think she's a fairly early game boss (was the 4th one I fought/5th I've beaten). I find bosses in that game leave way to many openings to heal and since healing items are plentiful, outlasting the boss becomes trivial. Plus, heavy armour and poise means tanking damage is a viable option.

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    Zevvion

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    @jclane said:

    @zevvion: To each their own. Amelia gave me more trouble than any Dark 2 boss save Smelter, the Ancient Dragon and the DLC bosses, and I think she's a fairly early game boss (was the 4th one I fought/5th I've beaten). I find bosses in that game leave way to many openings to heal and since healing items are plentiful, outlasting the boss becomes trivial. Plus, heavy armour and poise means tanking damage is a viable option.

    You mean poise in DS? In DSII they changed it so you basically couldn't have enough poise to withstand a boss' attacks. Yeah, you can always heal, but I've seen my fair share of summoners die because they tried to heal at the wrong time. And you can more easily heal in Bloodborne. The animation takes like half of DSII's, and is instantaneous. I've healed through taking damage before, Vinny style. I would say each game has their pro's and con's. I thought DSII's boss design (appearance) wasn't spectacular, but the mechanics were more challenging for the... well... challenging ones anyway. It had way too many bosses so a good number of them were indeed push overs. But the challenging ones were very fun to fight I thought.

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    jclane

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    #17  Edited By jclane

    @zevvion: Yeah, I was remembering and getting poise confused with the two, but I still had an easy time thanks to most bosses not doing enough damage to me cause of heavy armour. That, coupled with tons of healing wares, some of which (estus) would replenish if I died, made me feel more comfortable. In BB, I am scared to use blood vials willy nilly because if I die, I am not getting those wasted vials back unless I have stocked up in storage.

    Also, a heavy emphasis on parrying bosses in BB is what also makes it difficult for me. I'm someone who has never been able to parry Gwyn to death. You could say it's not so different from dodging, but parrying requires you to stay still and if you whiff, you are taking a hit if the enemy is anywhere near you.

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    Shindig

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    I think lacking a shield would take me some adjusting but I'll be getting this so far down the line (after plenty of practice with the older games) I'll be able to prepare. The issue with build diversity is the thing that initially concerns me but I makes me wonder how far the community will go, as a whole, towards playing Bloodborne in rather peculiar ways. I'm sure a gun build is possible and you can still be a tank, just not as heavily armoured.

    You can't go barehanded in this one, can you?

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    jclane

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    @shindig: If you unequip all weapons, you can go fisticuffs. And by fisticuffs, you can karate chop fools.

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    Zevvion

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    @jclane: Ah, I see, I think that's what explains the difference. I went through both DS and DSII a great number of times and sometimes I used strictly a parrying build. I am used to parrying, and as you said most bosses are designed around it. Coupled with the more generous parrying window, it feels easier for me as a result.

    I get what you're saying on blood vials, but I started looking out for ways to get them easily and I can now get approximately 100 of them in 10 minutes. And you have at least 20 on your character, if not more. So that's not an issue for me.

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    JRM

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    #21  Edited By JRM

    @ragingflower: I don't look at it as stripped down but focused and refined. There will be a Dark Souls 3 and you'll get your shield back then but bummer for you if you can't manage to get over the hump because this is an excellent game and a ton of fun.

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    ZolRoyce

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    I was mostly a shield guy too in Demons/Dark Souls, but often times I found the winning move in a lot of boss battles in those games wasn't to be behind a shield, but to be bold, quick or dodgy about it.
    I mean, that final boss in Demons Souls basically came down to running around him and away from him and towards him and always be running, always be dodging.
    So I found myself needing to adjust more so to the normal enemies than the bosses.
    I found the first axe you get in the game to be very helpful to my adjustment period, put it into it's double handed mode, charge up the power attack, let it go, it pretty much swings all enemies off of their feet and then you just run up and stabstabstabstab.

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    RagingFlower

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    It's interesting to see people claim this game is easier. I remember people back in the Dark Souls days just dreading Smough & Ornstein, but I was able to get them after a couple of tries. I wouldn't use heavy armor, I loved the fast roll, but I also loved having the extra layer of a shield. I held back, learned their moves, and waited for the best moment to strike. It all just seemed to click for me there.

    Bloodborne just seems to be Demon's Souls: Every boss is Flamelurker edition. Maybe I chose a poor weapon for my playstyle (threaded cane), or i'm just not grinding enough (I went into undead giant at lvl 28).

    I'm not going to be giving up on the game until I feel totally blocked. I think the enemy and encounter design are superb and a real return to form from the bland design of Dark Souls 2. I just have to find a way to enjoy the core combat mechanics to a point where I actually like fighting bosses again.

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    Zevvion

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    @ragingflower: I think you may be picking some comments out. I am one of the few who is actually claiming the game is easier. I see a lot of people saying it is harder.

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    MeMonk

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    @ragingflower: Yea the threaded cane may not be the best weapon for you, I picked that one when I started the game and idk its fast but it did not click with me. I then started over with the clever and that weapon works, the axe is also a great weapon. If you prefer a bit of a slower pace use the Ludwigs greatsword, the great sword version of that weapon staggers the crap out of people and the sword version is fast. It is now my go to weapon. And yes this game is hard as hell lol.

    Also do not be afraid to summon help for boss fights, it is fun to fight with other people and can make parts less frustrating.

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    RagingFlower

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    Hey folks, doubt anyone cares but I went into the Cathedral section with a fresh face and it was great. The tall men with walking sticks were perfect sparring partners to get me into the rhythem of this game, to just be a little more callous and try to press the assault. And parry. I also switched from the cane to the saw blade, and I beat Vicor (sp?) on my 3rd attempt. I expect many more lows and highs, but I think I might be getting what this game is saying now.

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    Ares42

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    #27  Edited By Ares42

    @ragingflower: I think much of the reason why some people say the game is easy is because once you get past Amelia the challenge sorta takes a nosedive. It might just be because that's the fight that forces you to get into the playstyle, or because you start getting higher levels/better weapons, but beyond that point I beat all of the bosses in less than 4-5 tries, and several of them on the first try after just stumbling into the fight. Once you get the mobility and rhythm down they all just sorta melt into the same very predictable fight.

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    BradBrains

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    its taking time but im getting there. Only beat the first two bosses but didnt have too much trouble.

    I do like how it forcing me to play the game more fast paced which makes it more excting but often more frustrating. which is fine because you cant come into one of these games without accepting that.

    My advice is anytime you would use your shield try to use your gun instead. it doesnt always work but when it does its satisfying.

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