not that it should come to any surprise that this series should parlay it's popularity with political views, but does anyone else feel anything less than disgust towards this game? i know i can be a little provocative at times, but i'm really in a knot over this game, or more specifically, the intelligent dialogue that is being drowned out by the marketing. where are the journalists who are supposed to be leading the conversation? i understand audience compulsion to just surrender to a new Call of Duty game, but i feel there is a noticeable absence of any real dialogue and and much needed analysis.

now when i say i'm disgusted, by that i mean i feel a general sense of unease given the fact that people are using this very influential medium and intentionally blurring the line between fantasy and reality, depicting real life events and public figures in order to suggest conclusions beforehand and perpetuate specific world views and to desensitize people to certain ideas, such as the military-industrial complex, which is clearly has never been an issue when making a military shooter.

initially, i thought the idea of using military as a character to influence sales was just too vulgar and unsophisticated to really catch on. but now listening to people talk about this game with hardly a mention of some of the more offending concerns, i wonder if i was the one being naive. i get that most videogames are intended to be consumed for entertainment, sans all that critical thinking, but how far is too far in terms of what we're expected to tolerate? people have to determine where the line is for themselves, but for christ sake, no one seems to even want to breach the conversation. am i being ridiculous here, is it more benign than what i'm carrying on about? this is of course rhetorical since i wouldn't be writing this if i thought otherwise.

anyway, let me know what you guys think on the matter. personally, i think it's too much, but obviously i won't be speaking on anyone else's behalf. if someone could make sense of the lack of dialogue and explain what i'm missing i'd appreciate it, because this idea that games should only be enjoyed on the basis of entertainment and that we just ignore the implications of the content, just isn't cutting it anymore

I just read through your post like 3 times, and i have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe i should go to bed.

I have no fucking clue what you are talking about, or what you are taking issue with.

It might help if you give a few specifics of what's bothering you. but as far as no one seeming to even broach the topic, that's because in most cases it's old hat. People have heard the 'glorifying war' discussion before, they know the limits, there's no need to bring it up every time they make a war-based shooter unless there's something particularly egregious about it. If you're talking about the marketing, well, that's never not gross.

Connections between the military itself and the video game industry are often the source of a lot of debate, in case you hadn't noticed. Several Seals were recently reprimanded for working with the Medal of Honor guys, and the few instances where games were thought to have too close a connection with reality (Six Days in Fallujah), they tend to get bad press for it.

If you're asking how people can enjoy shooters, I'm a little confused as to why you're on a video game forum. I can get not liking the genre, but if you like video games, you should probably understand the idea that games are fun on a mechanical level, and the 'setting' in many cases no more than window dressing.

@MarkWahlberg: see i would disagree about the whole window dressing thing. as poor as the writing may be, and as distasteful as some of the decisions that depict actual places, events, people, i actually do respect the medium and think all of that stuff is working on a more subconscious level, especially when people never question the message itself. never mind the violence in videogame topic, it is old hat, and less credible. however, i think the fact that people grow easily weary of certain ideas and topics inevitably makes it impossible to have more evolved conversations, and if the burden falls on the one person to create, hypothesize, test and draw the conclusions, than what's the point?

@studnoth1n said:

not that it should come to any surprise that this series should parlay it's popularity with political views, but does anyone else feel anything less than disgust towards this game? i know i can be a little sensational at times, but i'm really in a knot over this game, or more specifically, the intelligent dialogue that is being drowned out by the marketing. where are the journalists? i understand the audience compulsion, and i get the "gotta have it" topics. it's still a junkie haven in here, but i feel there is a noticeable absence of any real dialogue and and much needed analysis regarding some of the nuances that seem to slip by so many people.

now when i say i'm disgusted, by that i mean to say i feel a general sense of unease given the fact that people are using this very influential medium and intentionally blurring the line between fantasy and reality, depicting real life events and public figures in order to suggest conclusions beforehand and perpetuate specific world views and to desensitize people to certain ideas, such as the military-industrial complex, which is clearly has never been an issue when making a military shooter.

initially, i thought the idea of using military as a vehicle to drive sales was just too vulgar and unsophisticated to really catch on. but now listening to people talk about this game with hardly a mention of some of the more offending concerns, i wonder if i was the one being naive. i get that most videogames are intended to be consumed for entertainment, sans all that critical thinking, but how far is too far in terms of what we're expected to tolerate? people have to determine where the line is for themselves, but for christ sake, no one seems to even want to breach the conversation. am i being ridiculous here, is it more benign than what i'm carrying on about? this is of course rhetorical since i wouldn't be writing this if i thought otherwise.

anyway, let me know what you guys think on the matter. personally, i think it's too much, but obviously i won't be speaking on anyone else's behalf. if someone could make sense of the lack of dialogue and explain what i'm missing i'd appreciate it, because this idea that games should only be enjoyed on the basis that they're ridiculous and absurd just ain't cutting it anymore. if it's an issue of articulating your thoughts, than consider this an introductory work-out because i'd really like to hear why games like Call of Duty are still even relevant? a functional piece of technology that's not too irritating of a distraction? so what, so is gin, and there are less things that qualify as a breach of good taste while playing cards.

Ask yourself:

What am I trying to Say?

How do I feel about this?

What is my argument?

Why is this relevant?

And then edit your topic so people can actually understand what you are going on about.

however, i think the fact that people grow easily weary of certain ideas and topics inevitably makes it impossible to have more evolved conversations.

More matter with less art. You could have made your point in half the length of that post and halved my confusion about what you're actually saying in the process.

I don't know what it's like in other cultures. But in most of the UK war hasn't been considered glorious since before WW1.

This whole games cause desensitization is bollocks. It's the easiest thing to blame now, depending on the demographic of the broadcast in question. A TV station or newspaper is hardly going to blame themselves for any negativity that's being caused in the world, simply because it would hurt viewers or sales.

I would say newspapers and the internet would have a bigger impact in desensitizing me to war, simply because I can easily read about countless wars in the past or present. A fucking game is hardly going to do anything to my understanding of war compared to a documentary. Fact is COD games are much more similar to a game of paint ball than to a real war. If people get confused between reality and fiction, then there isn't really much you can do for them.

@studnoth1n: The 'window dressing' applies more to the multiplayer side, I'll be honest. I'm afraid I'm too tired at the moment to really get into this debate (seriously why am I even awake right now goddamit), but I do just want to say that you're really off base in believing that you are the only person thinking about this stuff. You're not. Try googling 'portrayals of war in video games', I guarantee you'll find plenty of stuff. If you're worried because internet forums aren't filled with reasoned discussions about portrayals of violence, well, that's the internet for you. We're here to enthuse more than philosophize. Just because someone isn't having a conversation doesn't mean they aren't aware of something. There's just no reason to bring it up again and again and again, every time a game comes out, unless they feel that there's something specific that warrants attention (which, by the way, people often do). You want to have more evolved conversations, tell people something they haven't heard before. Bring a new outlook.

@haffy said:

I don't know what it's like in other cultures. But in most of the UK war hasn't been considered glorious since before WW1.

This whole games cause desensitization is bollocks. It's the easiest thing to blame now, depending on the demographic of the broadcast in question. A TV station or newspaper is hardly going to blame themselves for any negativity that's being caused in the world, simply because it would hurt viewers or sales.

I would say newspapers and the internet would have a bigger impact in desensitizing me to war, simply because I can easily read about countless wars in the past or present. A fucking game is hardly going to do anything to my understanding of war compared to a documentary. Fact is COD games are much more similar to a game of paint ball than to a real war. If people get confused between reality and fiction, then there isn't really much you can do for them.

I was going to say something pretty close to this, but this nice gentleman did it for me, so thank you good sir. Though here in Denmark we haven't thought of war as a glorious thing since something like the middle ages or the crusades...

I find it odd that trailers make the game look like a blockbuster action movie and the games have lately steered pretty close to that tone unfortunately (they even have a co writer of a superhero film not a war film) surely the tone should be more sombre? This game is depicting a war, a fictional war sure but I don't think that allows the game/trailers to be so crass. Look at the first CoD trailer, far more appropriate.

go see a doctor, he will prescribe you something.

i love that someone actually compared this game to a film, and a film with anauteur no less. certainly there are thematic similarities, but in how that vision is brought to fruition, no comparison. this medium in it's current form is a craft at best, so stop pretending that these narratives have any other function outside of producing more propaganda and derivative ideas. i think it's lame and worth shaming other people out of buying the game, apparently most of you here disagree. what a shock.

also, just because the game is "well-made," this hardly justifies its existence. that excuse may have carried more legitimacy in the past when games were capable of less, but not anymore. it's all corporate storytelling and viral marketing now, the content like someone already mentioned, hasn't really changed or evolved that much. in fact, i'm beginning to question the idea of game design overall. i wonder if you even need people to make a game or if you can run a few algorithms through a program and viola, the next Call of Duty game.

also, i don't need the conceit of the forum to acknowledge the fact that the game is tacky as shit and that it seems that most people are deluding themselves something horrible buying this crap so apathetically. i only despise the decision making, not the decision maker.

@studnoth1n said:

not that it should come to any surprise that this series should parlay it's popularity with political views, but does anyone else feel anything less than disgust towards this game? i know i can be a little sensational at times, but i'm really in a knot over this game, or more specifically, the intelligent dialogue that is being drowned out by the marketing. where are the journalists? i understand the audience compulsion, and i get the "gotta have it" topics. it's still a junkie haven in here, but i feel there is a noticeable absence of any real dialogue and and much needed analysis regarding some of the nuances that seem to slip by so many people.

now when i say i'm disgusted, by that i mean to say i feel a general sense of unease given the fact that people are using this very influential medium and intentionally blurring the line between fantasy and reality, depicting real life events and public figures in order to suggest conclusions beforehand and perpetuate specific world views and to desensitize people to certain ideas, such as the military-industrial complex, which is clearly has never been an issue when making a military shooter.

initially, i thought the idea of using military as a vehicle to drive sales was just too vulgar and unsophisticated to really catch on. but now listening to people talk about this game with hardly a mention of some of the more offending concerns, i wonder if i was the one being naive. i get that most videogames are intended to be consumed for entertainment, sans all that critical thinking, but how far is too far in terms of what we're expected to tolerate? people have to determine where the line is for themselves, but for christ sake, no one seems to even want to breach the conversation. am i being ridiculous here, is it more benign than what i'm carrying on about? this is of course rhetorical since i wouldn't be writing this if i thought otherwise.

anyway, let me know what you guys think on the matter. personally, i think it's too much, but obviously i won't be speaking on anyone else's behalf. if someone could make sense of the lack of dialogue and explain what i'm missing i'd appreciate it, because this idea that games should only be enjoyed on the basis that they're ridiculous and absurd just ain't cutting it anymore. if it's an issue of articulating your thoughts, than consider this an introductory work-out because i'd really like to hear why games like Call of Duty are still even relevant? a functional piece of technology that's not too irritating of a distraction? so what, so is gin, and there are less things that qualify as a breach of good taste while playing cards.

Hey dude, I agree. For those wanting examples, just from the marketing and the quicklook, here are some:

1. Oliver North, who broke US law under Reagan to distribute money to drug traffickers to ensure release of US hostages from Lebanon, is not only in the game, he is a paid consultant. The game funds a war criminal.

2. That Angola mission given without context is irresponsible. I went to wikipedia and looked it up. The reasoning behind US involvement is complicated.

3. The decapitations in that mission are really disturbing and wrong, morally and physically.

4. Building a game around trumped up conservative fears and retelling the CIA horrors of the 80s is a serious decision to make. Ending that game with a wacky concert and offensive skit is not respectful to any of the topics broached here.

If Black Ops was a comedy like Bad Company or Three Kings, have at it. It's not. It's a war drama. And it's morally bankrupt in ways no COD game before has been. That conversation needs to happen.

@studnoth1n said:

i love that someone actually compared this game to a film, and a film with anauteur no less. certainly there are thematic similarities, but in how that vision is brought to fruition, no comparison. this medium in it's current form is a craft at best, so stop pretending that these narratives have any other function outside of producing more propaganda and derivative ideas. i think it's lame and worth shaming other people out of buying the game, apparently most of you here disagree. what a shock.

also, just because the game is "well-made," this hardly justifies its existence. that excuse may have carried more legitimacy in the past when games were capable of less, but not anymore. it's all corporate storytelling and viral marketing now, the content like someone already mentioned, hasn't really changed or evolved that much. in fact, i'm beginning to question the idea of game design overall. i wonder if you even need people to make a game or if you can run a few algorithms through a program and viola, the next Call of Duty game.

also, i don't need the conceit of the forum to acknowledge the fact that the game is tacky as shit and that it seems that most people are deluding themselves something horrible buying this crap so apathetically. i only despise the decision making, not the decision maker.

Sorry but your just rambling and have no real basis for any legitimate argument. Stop spouting off opinion as fact and actually do some research into what propaganda is.

Can you give us some examples?

Oliver North is a fucking scumbag and I hate that he's involved.

@Asurastrike said:

@studnoth1n said:

not that it should come to any surprise that this series should parlay it's popularity with political views, but does anyone else feel anything less than disgust towards this game? i know i can be a little sensational at times, but i'm really in a knot over this game, or more specifically, the intelligent dialogue that is being drowned out by the marketing. where are the journalists? i understand the audience compulsion, and i get the "gotta have it" topics. it's still a junkie haven in here, but i feel there is a noticeable absence of any real dialogue and and much needed analysis regarding some of the nuances that seem to slip by so many people.

now when i say i'm disgusted, by that i mean to say i feel a general sense of unease given the fact that people are using this very influential medium and intentionally blurring the line between fantasy and reality, depicting real life events and public figures in order to suggest conclusions beforehand and perpetuate specific world views and to desensitize people to certain ideas, such as the military-industrial complex, which is clearly has never been an issue when making a military shooter.

initially, i thought the idea of using military as a vehicle to drive sales was just too vulgar and unsophisticated to really catch on. but now listening to people talk about this game with hardly a mention of some of the more offending concerns, i wonder if i was the one being naive. i get that most videogames are intended to be consumed for entertainment, sans all that critical thinking, but how far is too far in terms of what we're expected to tolerate? people have to determine where the line is for themselves, but for christ sake, no one seems to even want to breach the conversation. am i being ridiculous here, is it more benign than what i'm carrying on about? this is of course rhetorical since i wouldn't be writing this if i thought otherwise.

anyway, let me know what you guys think on the matter. personally, i think it's too much, but obviously i won't be speaking on anyone else's behalf. if someone could make sense of the lack of dialogue and explain what i'm missing i'd appreciate it, because this idea that games should only be enjoyed on the basis that they're ridiculous and absurd just ain't cutting it anymore. if it's an issue of articulating your thoughts, than consider this an introductory work-out because i'd really like to hear why games like Call of Duty are still even relevant? a functional piece of technology that's not too irritating of a distraction? so what, so is gin, and there are less things that qualify as a breach of good taste while playing cards.

Ask yourself:

What am I trying to Say?

How do I feel about this?

What is my argument?

Why is this relevant?

And then edit your topic so people can actually understand what you are going on about.

Well said.

And use the damn shift key. I mean you have to in order to make the / button into a ? so why not use it to make capital I or a capital letter at the beginning of a sentence. Seriously.

I have no clue what you are even trying to say here but I'm just glad I take video games as they are. Video games. People take the content of video games way too seriously and get offended by certain aspects of them as if it is real. The sad thing about this is that all this stuff is really inconsistent. Someone says the violence in video games is bad for people and causes problems. Then you will get people arguing that it is just a video game. But then you have something like the tomb Raider nonsense where the same people that say its just a video game will take issue with a game and claim its sexist and gross. My opinion is that it's just a fucking video game and people get worked up over nothing.

@Pinworm45: once again, depicting public figures (oliver north) and actual historic events (angolan civil war) in a manner than can misrepresent actual person, place or event, and ultimately mislead viewers, for me at least this comes across as as a little more than disingenuous.

also, for the person who wasn't sure about the "propaganda" claim i made, here's a merriam-webster definition. you can decide if it applies:

"propaganda: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also: a public action having such an effect"

the only thing debatable is whether or not the characterization of the people and events depicted within the game were done with specific intent, or just incompetence. i'll be fair and assume that it's probably a little of both, but i'm not naive to the fact that games also have the capacity to suggest ideas and themes within it's narrative structure. francoit truffaut said you can't make an anti-war film, primarily because the depiction of any aspect of war inevitably romanticizes the very thing. tell me how it's any different in the case of a video game, especially when the decision is made to depict actual people and events?

if you're speaking to a general disconcerting anxiety surrounding games (specifically modern military shooters) that attempt to 'game-ify' real world conflicts or projected real world conflicts, i'm with you. i haven't played CoD since MW2, so i can't speak to this one specifically. but it's true- there is something unsettling about one of the highest selling forms of entertainment being based on a power fantasy predicated on killing individuals with some relation to reality. beheadings in war-torn africa- that happens. it doesn't need to be in a game, probably.

I seriously can't understand your argument, but as for my thoughts on the game....well the campaign is awful.

But until I finish the game I'll just say that these COD games sure love to have you murder Russians....from Call of Duty 4 all the way through Black Ops 2 (excluding WaW) you've been slaughtering Russians all along, it's getting a bit weird.

I like to keep my opinion of games as simple as possible. Do I have fun playing yes or no.

I can appreciate a good debate on anything but I also find many people trying to read between the lines when nothing is actually there. Years ago when I was in school reading Moby Dick for English class by teacher would take any object in the book and try to make it symbolize something and even quiz us on it later. I had to ask if the author really every thought about it as much as she did. The same goes to war games. I doubt at all there is a hidden message or perception changing in the design by fault. Depending on the person it may or may not happen and I can agree with you there. Like anything in life you make your own choices or you make the choices for your kids up to a certain age. In the end yes I do enjoy the COD games and even though they are not break though gamin year after year I buy them because the new maps and the new twists make me feel as I do get $50 worth as I pump hours upon hours into it while having a blast.

It's nothing movies haven't done before, and those are even more powerful in how they affect our thoughts, so I wouldn't worry about games. It's a larger issue with all of media.

@Kierkegaard:

Are the Cubans in the Angola mission? I'd hope they wouldn't leave that part out especially given the fact that Ollie is actually IN the game.

@Kierkegaard said:

@studnoth1n said:

not that it should come to any surprise that this series should parlay it's popularity with political views, but does anyone else feel anything less than disgust towards this game? i know i can be a little sensational at times, but i'm really in a knot over this game, or more specifically, the intelligent dialogue that is being drowned out by the marketing. where are the journalists? i understand the audience compulsion, and i get the "gotta have it" topics. it's still a junkie haven in here, but i feel there is a noticeable absence of any real dialogue and and much needed analysis regarding some of the nuances that seem to slip by so many people.

now when i say i'm disgusted, by that i mean to say i feel a general sense of unease given the fact that people are using this very influential medium and intentionally blurring the line between fantasy and reality, depicting real life events and public figures in order to suggest conclusions beforehand and perpetuate specific world views and to desensitize people to certain ideas, such as the military-industrial complex, which is clearly has never been an issue when making a military shooter.

initially, i thought the idea of using military as a vehicle to drive sales was just too vulgar and unsophisticated to really catch on. but now listening to people talk about this game with hardly a mention of some of the more offending concerns, i wonder if i was the one being naive. i get that most videogames are intended to be consumed for entertainment, sans all that critical thinking, but how far is too far in terms of what we're expected to tolerate? people have to determine where the line is for themselves, but for christ sake, no one seems to even want to breach the conversation. am i being ridiculous here, is it more benign than what i'm carrying on about? this is of course rhetorical since i wouldn't be writing this if i thought otherwise.

anyway, let me know what you guys think on the matter. personally, i think it's too much, but obviously i won't be speaking on anyone else's behalf. if someone could make sense of the lack of dialogue and explain what i'm missing i'd appreciate it, because this idea that games should only be enjoyed on the basis that they're ridiculous and absurd just ain't cutting it anymore. if it's an issue of articulating your thoughts, than consider this an introductory work-out because i'd really like to hear why games like Call of Duty are still even relevant? a functional piece of technology that's not too irritating of a distraction? so what, so is gin, and there are less things that qualify as a breach of good taste while playing cards.

Hey dude, I agree. For those wanting examples, just from the marketing and the quicklook, here are some:

1. Oliver North, who broke US law under Reagan to distribute money to drug traffickers to ensure release of US hostages from Lebanon, is not only in the game, he is a paid consultant. The game funds a war criminal.

2. That Angola mission given without context is irresponsible. I went to wikipedia and looked it up. The reasoning behind US involvement is complicated.

3. The decapitations in that mission are really disturbing and wrong, morally and physically.

4. Building a game around trumped up conservative fears and retelling the CIA horrors of the 80s is a serious decision to make. Ending that game with a wacky concert and offensive skit is not respectful to any of the topics broached here.

If Black Ops was a comedy like Bad Company or Three Kings, have at it. It's not. It's a war drama. And it's morally bankrupt in ways no COD game before has been. That conversation needs to happen.

So thats why people don't like Oliver North, seems like a decent thing to do to release hostages.

@Bourbon_Warrior:

There was also the sale of anti-tank missiles to Iran if my memory is not too fuzzy. The U.S. Gov is surprisingly stingy on what can legally be sold to who when it comes to weapons. Thats why most aircraft sold abroad have downgraded flight systems and sensors that the receiving nation has to either make do with or replace with their own equipment.