If publishers knew more than "just a gamer" then they wouldn't ever have flops, would they?

He just stole that from Socrates' own and far preceding "I know that I know nothing" though.

Mature games on the Wii are a niche.

" @Al3xand3r said:

" No, I didn't, MadWorld was just an example. Whatever game you think would perform better on other systems, wouldn't. "

I think some would.  How would you know? "

Oddly, I find myself believing that the people running these companies do not actually play the games they make unless its for some media event or photographs.

" God told me. Or I use common sense. Why does nobody make lightgun shooters on PS360? Because more people wouldn't buy them and they'd require a higher budget than Wii games if they were to have appealing to the HD audience graphics on par with other productions. Why does nobody port his games that supposedly flopped because of the Wii? Surely that would be easy money, yes? No, because they know they wouldn't sell anywhere else either (and before someone mentions the No More Heroes port, that is ported because it was succesful, not the opposite, and I wouldn't expect it to do better on PS3 than on Wii anywhere except Japan where marketing wasn't what it could have been for the Wii release).It's the same old Chinatown Wars DS story. Everyone run to blame the DS for being unable to sell big mature franchises but the PSP port, which does have better graphics so must have cost more than the average port, and where GTA games have sold excellently many times before, actually performed even worse (while the DS version has achieved pretty respectable sales by now, like several of the so called Wii bombs). Why? The game was great surely. It was, but it was niche, just like GTA always was before GTA3. Top down GTA just isn't what most people want. On rails Dead Space isn't what people want. On rails RE for a second time isn't what people want. Etc for all niche titles, which aren't even good as CW. "

I knew of TC4 and that it actually sold good, not just "alright". But that's the only one. That means the gun peripheral is in an "alright" number of hands already, right? If they were ports of Wii games or even ports of arcade titles like TC4 then the development cost would be  nonexistent so they could bundle the peripheral for the price of a normal game to put the gun in even more people's hands and prepare the market to sell new games for a good profit. Yet they aren't doing any of that, because the market can't support many games of this type. They never sold that much, they're primarily arcade experiences that home users aren't compelled to play enough to justify the high price tag attached to the pair that flopped on Wii. Wii has made the genre sell more than in the past if anything, it basically revived the whole genre this generation, yet the moment one or two don't sell we hear the bomb drums without considering the reasons they didn't sell outside being on the Wii.

Heck, forget lightgun games in particular, we don't see rail shooters in general on other systems. Not all of those are lightgun tuned (even on Wii some are played with the standard controller as they lack lightgun calibration, granted that's better than a dual analog controller but you can play them just fine without, and some were popular in past generations, like Starfox), they could easily make a cheap on rails Resident Evil or Dead Space for the PS360 which would be fun to play (for the few fans of the genre, which includes me mind you) without a lightgun giving you limited control akin to StarFox or Sin & Punishment. They don't do that. Ask yourself why, and please don't say that everyone wants Wii controls.

Again, they know it wouldn't sell anywhere, yet they pretend cheap outsourced lightgun spin offs on Wii is what every Wii owner should be grateful for and it's such an amazing revelation that they didn't all achieve spectacular sales. And again, RE spin offs have flopped on other systems also. Outbreak sold good on PS2, Outbreak 2 flopped, just like Umbrella Chronicles sold good on Wii, yet Darkside Chronicles flopped, and they weren't even on rails. Was the PS2 a bad system for mature titles? Of course not, RE4 sold great. As it sold great on Wii. Monster Hunter Tri far outsold the PlayStation 2 Monster Hunter games also. How is the Wii bad for CAPCOM when it proves as good or better than PS2 in almost all of these cases?

The Wii has sold several lightgun shooters, why should it sell even more of this niche genre, when the other systems don't? As for non rails games, no, they wouldn't need a motion sensor as most games that use motion, save for motion plus stuff which are still few, could replace motion gestures with analog stick gestures, like No More Heroes HD is doing. Unless you now want to tell me developers value the Wii experience so much they want it intact on PS360 so they will port nothing until the sony wands arrive. Lol. That they don't port those games, and that they don't make similar experiences for the HD systems, shows they know they won't sell anywhere, and only make them for Wii because they see that the huge install base means at least a few people will buy their sub par products that are already cheaper to develop than on PS360.

For other games that go beyond mature titles we have even more proof that Wii sells them just as well as anything, ie, MadWorld while being a flop sold better than GodHand on PS2 which was the last game from them with also mixed reviews. Their new game is Bayonetta and so far it appears to be their biggest success (though how much in the West remains to be seen). Why? Because it's not a cheaply developed product, they made a huge investment with years of development and it paid off with raving reviews and only positive word of mouth from everyone. That is how you sell games. Of course it won't become a multi million seller because it's still a niche game, but nobody's going to call it a flop either as it's not on Wii. If it was just MadWorld HD you can bet it wouldn't be anywhere near as well received. Okami is by the same studio also, and that, being also a good game, sold better on the Wii than it did with its initial PlayStation 2 release. Boo hoo, Wii doesn't sell software?
 
It's really simple honestly. The games that flop on Wii aren't ported. Moreover, to avoid claims that Wii ports are invalid due to motion controls (which is a joke for reasons explained but let's entertain it), the types of games that flop on Wii aren't created exclusively for PS360 at all. That much shows they're aware the fault lies in the products, there's no way around that simple clear conclusion. Saying MadWorld type games show something about the Wii is like saying Bionic Commando represents how action games sell on the HD platforms. Though MadWorld was probably still profitable, at least a little, while Bionic Commando was an expensive production and lost money, so, lol HD bombs. Still, both are completely ridiculous statements. Many of the Wii games called flops have even turned a profit. Why do you think such games keep being made only on Wii? The majority is profitable with the little money spent on them. They aren't really test games. One test game would have been enough, yet every company makes its own. They make money from these, and any subsequent statements are merely PR talk to appease their HD fans.

MadWorld has long turned in profit, by the way. Stop using it as an example.

 @Al3xand3r said:

"  Heck, forget lightgun games in particular, we don't see rail shooters in general on other systems. Not all of those are lightgun tuned (even on Wii some are played with the standard controller as they lack lightgun calibration, granted that's better than a dual analog controller but you can play them just fine without, and some were popular in past generations, like Starfox), they could easily make a cheap on rails Resident Evil or Dead Space for the PS360 which would be fun to play (for the few fans of the genre, which includes me mind you) without a lightgun giving you limited control akin to StarFox or Sin & Punishment. They don't do that. Ask yourself why, and please don't say that everyone wants Wii controls.  "

I don't know what you're talking about, taking one little part of my post like that, because the paragraph you quote there doesn't speak about lightgun shooters. It speaks of rail shooters, which existed on consoles long before the Wii brought pointer based controls, and aren't played with lightguns, and never sold multiple millions. That the Wii offers better controls for them via the pointer method (which many around here still dispute) doesn't mean they suddenly become more mainstream and should sell millions of copies thanks to a piece of plastic as you say. Clearly they didn't since we're discussing their failure to sell consistently in this thread and treating the subject like that only leads the discussion in pointless circles. Not to mention if the genre was such a big awesome seller then a lightgun would have been a pretty damn popular PS360 accessory to buy as I already explained so we would be seeing more games like that outside Wii, rather than a single game for the whole generation so far.

But hey, let's entertain this thought then. Everybody has somehow been englightened and realises pointer control is where it's at for such games, so they wouldn't buy rail shooters on other consoles which offer conventional controls as you claim. Then, according to this thread, rail shooters are also not a niche genre at all, they should all sell a fuckton of copies normally, and they fail to sell because of the Wii. Right?

Excuse me? That does not compute, how could they possibly fail to sell when everyone has been enlightened by pointer controls and when the genre is one that is so very mainstream that everyone wants it, and when the genre only appears on Wii? Wouldn't every gamer buy a Wii then? How can they possibly live without this glorious genre?! Yet, they don't buy one, and here we are, discussing why a couple of games didn't sell.

There's no logic in these statements as you can see, so we reach my previous conclusion. Those games are niche, they aren't made for other systems because they would be more expensive to make and still wouldn't sell, they sell semi consistently on Wii which means for little cost they tend to make a good profit, and the failure of a couple means absolutely nothing about the Wii fanbase since the genre was never a consistent big seller, and those particular games were mishandled and had other things factor in their striking failures. The blame lies on the publishers, not Wii.

"The lightgun genre is 100% dead on every platform but the Wii! "

I used TC4 in some of my previous arguments, so, yeah. I also said is dead, not was dead, that game's like two years old so ha :-P

You can't fault Sega and Capcom for not wanting to do this anymore. As much as it sucks, they're right. Wii is mostly not for us anymore, and by us I mean, people who have games as one of their main hobbies.

 As much as it sucks, they're right.

"

 As much as it sucks, they're right.

No. Bad Wii sales are directly tied to bad / nonexistant marketing, and NOTHING else. "

"

 As much as it sucks, they're right.

No. Bad Wii sales are directly tied to bad / nonexistant marketing, and NOTHING else. "

" @Meowayne said:

"

 As much as it sucks, they're right.

No. Bad Wii sales are directly tied to bad / nonexistant marketing, and NOTHING else. "

However, the Wii audience is the reason it needs good marketing, because they aren't industry insiders like gamers are, and don't scour the internet daily to see what is happening that's new. You won't get a huge hit simply by announcing a game, because just by posting a trailer on the internet, ecverybody who is going to buy the game already knows it exists.  That won't work on the Wii.  Just like the people that don't know a movie exists until they see a poster at the movie theater. "

" @Willy105 said:

" @Meowayne said:

"

 As much as it sucks, they're right.

No. Bad Wii sales are directly tied to bad / nonexistant marketing, and NOTHING else. "

However, the Wii audience is the reason it needs good marketing, because they aren't industry insiders like gamers are, and don't scour the internet daily to see what is happening that's new. You won't get a huge hit simply by announcing a game, because just by posting a trailer on the internet, ecverybody who is going to buy the game already knows it exists.  That won't work on the Wii.  Just like the people that don't know a movie exists until they see a poster at the movie theater. "

Yes, Modern Warfare 2's advertising budget sure was a waste of money, it would have sold the same without ads, silly Activision.Not. "

That's what you said? I'm sorry, I thought you said something about the Wii's audience in particular, not all consoles' audience. Silly me. Carry on.

" @Meowayne said:

"

 As much as it sucks, they're right.

No. Bad Wii sales are directly tied to bad / nonexistant marketing, and NOTHING else. "

However, the Wii audience is the reason it needs good marketing, because they aren't industry insiders like gamers are, and don't scour the internet daily to see what is happening that's new. You won't get a huge hit simply by announcing a game, because just by posting a trailer on the internet, ecverybody who is going to buy the game already knows it exists.  That won't work on the Wii.  Just like the people that don't know a movie exists until they see a poster at the movie theater. "

" Zack and Wiki was always destined to fail in my eyes, that games character design was totally fucked up, as is the name of the game.   I'm glad I'll never have to hear that extremely annoying baby sound shit coming out of Wiki.  "

If you're disappointed in the mature Wii games and, as a gamer, find them lackluster (since you haven't played them and got a PS3 and don't care for Wii etc etc cool story bro) then surely the fault lies in the developers of said lackluster games as the Wii didn't develop them by itself, and the age rating has nothing to do with quality and appeal, therefor you're basically saying the french capcom employee is wrong as it's not the audience that isn't there (you're a gamer, you have a Wii, you were willing to try games), it's that there are no games for audience as hardcore as your highness (you seriously need to expand your gaming horizons as the Wii has plenty more than 3 quality games but that's a topic for another thread, kthxbai).

" If you're disappointed in the mature Wii games and, as a gamer, find them lackluster (since you haven't played them and got a PS3 and don't care for Wii etc etc cool story bro) then surely the fault lies in the developers of said lackluster games as the Wii didn't develop them by itself, and the age rating has nothing to do with quality and appeal, therefor you're basically saying the french capcom employee is wrong as it's not the audience that isn't there (you're a gamer, you have a Wii, you were willing to try games), it's that there are no games for audience as hardcore as your highness (you seriously need to expand your gaming horizons as the Wii has plenty more than 3 quality games but that's a topic for another thread, kthxbai). "

Being different is bad folks, everything should be the same, lolz. As for the quality, the features and, um, the value, aside from dashboard features every Wii game is capable of having all the same bullet point features if the developer actually, uh, develops them, like they do on every single platform, not to mention that when the games discussed here don't even exist on other platforms there isn't any more fully featured alternative, so that makes absolutely no sense. Ie, SEGA's MadWorld isn't a Bayonetta with less features, it's a vastly inferior game in everything, not just graphics but the core design, the polish, the length, the variety, everything. Darkside Chronicles isn't a RE5 with less features, it's a different genre. This isn't less features, it's less effort, outsourced development and bad decisions. RE4 is better than 5 despite "less features" as it doesn't have co-op or achievements which shows that last gen games can match the value of current titles, so the Wii is in theory even more able if a developer is willing.

Yet people like you turn "Darkside Chronicles didn't sell great" into "RE5-like Wii games wouldn't sell great" even though the former doesn't resemble the latter in any way and we have just as many if not more examples of such games that sold good. It's an illogical conclusion.

It's up to the games to attract you, and if they don't, that implies a failure from the developer, not of the platform or any other external factors the developer cannot control, unless we're gonna turn this thread into "lolz wiimote" again. That merely shows a developer should either try harder or admit his failures and move on without trying to spin things into blaming everything other than his games and how they were handled.

Blaming the platform for their own failures is stupid. But again, this is some small fry French CAPCOM dude, it's not a big deal what he says.

But 7th quest doesn't have achievements so it has less features so surely you should have bought 10 PS3 games instead!!11

And I never questioned your decade ago PC game playing, I questioned your current playing. But as I said, that's for another thread.

In any case, in all these responses I was merely entertaining your logical fallacies to try and show you where you're wrong with this. Since you're being so dense, I'll respond to your first comment here again with what I should have said then: You basically said "I don't play Wii, so CAPCOM is right" but guess what, your personal habits and taste don't dictate who is right and wrong so your post was little more than off topic & illogical.

" @Willy105 said:

" @Meowayne said:

"

 As much as it sucks, they're right.

No. Bad Wii sales are directly tied to bad / nonexistant marketing, and NOTHING else. "

However, the Wii audience is the reason it needs good marketing, because they aren't industry insiders like gamers are, and don't scour the internet daily to see what is happening that's new. You won't get a huge hit simply by announcing a game, because just by posting a trailer on the internet, ecverybody who is going to buy the game already knows it exists.  That won't work on the Wii.  Just like the people that don't know a movie exists until they see a poster at the movie theater. "

Exactly. So, whose fault is it that good Wii games don't sell even though there is an audience for them? Hmm...? "

" @Meowayne said:

" @Willy105 said:

" @Meowayne said:

"

 As much as it sucks, they're right.

No. Bad Wii sales are directly tied to bad / nonexistant marketing, and NOTHING else. "

However, the Wii audience is the reason it needs good marketing, because they aren't industry insiders like gamers are, and don't scour the internet daily to see what is happening that's new. You won't get a huge hit simply by announcing a game, because just by posting a trailer on the internet, ecverybody who is going to buy the game already knows it exists.  That won't work on the Wii.  Just like the people that don't know a movie exists until they see a poster at the movie theater. "

Exactly. So, whose fault is it that good Wii games don't sell even though there is an audience for them? Hmm...? "

Technically it's the publishers, but the people didn't make it easy. "

Here's the real problem:  everyone who is doing Mature-rated games on the Wii are OVERdoing it.  Look at Madworld and No More Heroes as primary examples.  I'm not saying they aren't good games...but I am saying that they are going right out there and trying to make the most mature game possible without focusing heavily on game mechanics at all times.  Meanwhile, a game like Resident Evil 4 or even Silent Hill: Shattered Memories works well because the motion controls are used in an inventive and natural manner. 
 
I think that if people stopped looking at the Wii as just a family console, and they were willing to just make a game rather than say "oh, let's go to the extremes because it's a family console and we're going to be controversial", then I think you'd see more success with that style of game on the console. 
 
Also, Capcom hasn't done shit that's worthwhile on the Wii for Mature-rated titles other than a lazy ass port of Dead Rising, a couple of Resident Evil rail shooters, and...yeah, that's about all I can think of. 
 
Maybe if they were willing to really put some time into making a game rather than acting like fucking hacks about the shit, then they've see some return.

 Also, Capcom hasn't done shit that's worthwhile on the Wii for Mature-rated titles other than a lazy ass port of Dead Rising, a couple of Resident Evil rail shooters, and...yeah, that's about all I can think of.

Tatsunoko vs CAPCOM sold pretty bad in Japan, but the game also failed to attract attention in the arcades first which shows it's not just a Wii problem, people just didn't get into it as in other CAPCOM fighters, some citing the balance issues as part of the problem. The new  version is getting a lower price release there, perhaps it will fare better with all the tweaks and additions. I'm glad they're bringing it over though.

MH 3 sold good of course. As far as home console third party titles go in Japan, it was the best selling yet until FFXIII finally surpassed it. They earn additional income from the online fee there, and it's bound to get a G release that sells good as well. Though with all the delays it would have been nice to have the G release here right away, I don't think people will buy it twice in the West just for the extra content... I wouldn't like to do that myself.

" Being different is bad folks, everything should be the same, lolz. As for the quality, the features and, um, the value, aside from dashboard features every Wii game is capable of having all the same bullet point features if the developer actually, uh, develops them, like they do on every single platform, not to mention that when the games discussed here don't even exist on other platforms there isn't any more fully featured alternative, so that makes absolutely no sense. Ie, SEGA's MadWorld isn't a Bayonetta with less features, it's a vastly inferior game in everything, not just graphics but the core design, the polish, the length, the variety, everything. Darkside Chronicles isn't a RE5 with less features, it's a different genre. This isn't less features, it's less effort, outsourced development and bad decisions. RE4 is better than 5 despite "less features" as it doesn't have co-op or achievements which shows that last gen games can match the value of current titles, so the Wii is in theory even more able if a developer is willing.

Yet people like you turn "Darkside Chronicles didn't sell great" into "RE5-like Wii games wouldn't sell great" even though the former doesn't resemble the latter in any way and we have just as many if not more examples of such games that sold good. It's an illogical conclusion.

It's up to the games to attract you, and if they don't, that implies a failure from the developer, not of the platform or any other external factors the developer cannot control, unless we're gonna turn this thread into "lolz wiimote" again. That merely shows a developer should either try harder or admit his failures and move on without trying to spin things into blaming everything other than his games and how they were handled.

Blaming the platform for their own failures is stupid. But again, this is some small fry French CAPCOM dude, it's not a big deal what he says.

But 7th quest doesn't have achievements so it has less features so surely you should have bought 10 PS3 games instead!!11

And I never questioned your decade ago PC game playing, I questioned your current playing. But as I said, that's for another thread.

In any case, in all these responses I was merely entertaining your logical fallacies to try and show you where you're wrong with this. Since you're being so dense, I'll respond to your first comment here again with what I should have said then: You basically said "I don't play Wii, so CAPCOM is right" but guess what, your personal habits and taste don't dictate who is right and wrong so your post was little more than off topic & illogical. "

I can use google too, I don't need lessons. Anyway, the problem wasn't what you think the Wii can or can't offer you personally, the problem is using that personal experience, like, dislike, whatever else as evidence that support the French dude's statements. Though I must say your conclusions based on your experiences are pretty contradicting since you still value games that most certainly don't offer the same features games do now yet you consider the Wii unable to deliver experiences of value to you, which makes you think that a lackluster game isn't the developer's fault, but the Wii's fault. Quite baffling but whatever works for you. I'm just repeating myself since you didn't respond to the bulk of my post so I'll stop.

And to add to this thread for those unaware (dude below), click, the Frenchie's statements have already been indirectly denounced by CAPCOM.

Looks like companies are finally starting to realize that they can't make hardcore games for the Wii.

" Tatsunoko vs CAPCOM sold pretty bad in Japan, but the game also failed to attract attention in the arcades first which shows it's not just a Wii problem, people just didn't get into it as in other CAPCOM fighters, some citing the balance issues as part of the problem. The new  version is getting a lower price release there, perhaps it will fare better with all the tweaks and additions. I'm glad they're bringing it over though.MH 3 sold good of course. As far as home console third party titles go in Japan, it was the best selling yet until FFXIII finally surpassed it. They earn additional income from the online fee there, and it's bound to get a G release that sells good as well. Though with all the delays it would have been nice to have the G release here right away, I don't think people will buy it twice in the West just for the extra content... I wouldn't like to do that myself. "

Amusing was how hard you tried to hide the trolling, (by posting about your gamer cred no less).

I'm glad you're finally showing you true colors because the contadictions were growing boring ;)

Wow, nice attempt to turn the discussion into circles. Everything you said has been countered countless times before, most of it being completely ridiculous in the first place. Not to mention you jump the gun and now speak of "quality" games as opposed to "mature" games. And you present one more glorious contradiction, like all the other ones you've failed to address with your generalities even though I was very specific about them. Now you once again speak of good games not selling on Wii, when just earlier were hating the Wii for lacking games of value. Which is it then? If it lacks good games, how can you prove good games don't sell on it, and if it has good games why wouldn't you buy them to add to your gamer cred you so gloriously tried to push forth? A piece of white plastic has such a strong emotional reaction for you that you can't enjoy good games if played on it? Lol. Get a grip dude. Good games have flopped on all the platforms mind you, and cerain good games sold better on Wii than the mighty PS2, so pointing out an example or two of games that, while potentially good, are of a very niche genre or type that nobody even creates for the other systems at all because they're aware of that fact and the added costs would make it a surefire loss, is hardly proof of anything about the Wii.

In any case, I will not respond to you further because...

A) You'll lead ths discussion in circles, so just refer to my previous comments which have evidence against everything contradicting you claim.

B) You said this:

"Ok, I'll just say it. The wii is a terrible piece of garbage that should have been aborted. All wii developers are wasting their time  and money making M rated games for Gam Gam and baby. I'm not sorry if this commonly known fact has made you bitter and resentful. Although I would have to admit that its rather amusing watching you try to defend it so adrently."

" Oh well...guess we will never see RE5 for Wii :(  I have the PC version but would definitely like to try the game with Wii controls. "

" @rmillz87 said:

" Oh well...guess we will never see RE5 for Wii :(  I have the PC version but would definitely like to try the game with Wii controls. "

RE 4 was a really good game, regardless of the fact that I had the GCN version.  However, RE 5 relies heavily on graphics and, as such, might actually become a noticable defect in the wii version.  Either way, this halts progress on any game that would be from Capcom rated M. "

" @demontium said:

" @rmillz87 said:

" Oh well...guess we will never see RE5 for Wii :(  I have the PC version but would definitely like to try the game with Wii controls. "

RE 4 was a really good game, regardless of the fact that I had the GCN version.  However, RE 5 relies heavily on graphics and, as such, might actually become a noticable defect in the wii version.  Either way, this halts progress on any game that would be from Capcom rated M. "

RE5 doesn't rely on graphics, it relies on being a caricature of RE4. In any case, DSC style visuals would be more than enough to retain its whole atmosphere, but I doubt it's cost effective to do all that work for a port instead of put the resources in a new game that's likely to sell better. But this statement means absolutely nothing. CAPCOM France made a sensational comment to keep their ass covered for the low sales of certain titles when their job is to increase sales in the region. CAPCOM Europe rushed to do damage control (you commented in that thread also, how can you pretend that counter-statement didn't happen here? short term memory failure or what?) and show their support for all platforms with a counter statement. Europe > France. Granted, the statement didn't mention M rated games in particular, but they did specify it was meant to oppose the French guy's words so further clarification wasn't necessary. CAPCOM Japan likely couldn't care less what either of them say as only they matter, just consider this issue never discussed rather than settled by either of the involved parties which don't have anywhere near enough power to do so. "

" DSC was also developed by Cavia, hardly a top developer, and with hardly the same resources, budget, manpower and time a full fledged RE game would or should have. If you agree CAPCOM Japan doesn't care what France and Europe say, then why do you make assumptions about CAPCOM's future output on Wii based on their statements? Mind you, more of their M rated games sold good on Wii than bad, and those which didn't, have clear reasoning for their failures beyond the Wii userbase. Ie, Dead Rising's port was shit, while DSC was the 2nd spin off just like Resident Evil Outbreak 2 bombed on the PlayStation 2 even though the first Outbreak sold good, just like UC did on Wii. It's simple stuff. How did the gun survivor games do then? Anywhere near the numbers main Resident Evil titles do? Nope? Yeah, I didn't think so. CAPCOM knows.
"