All Of The Vania, None Of The Metroid.

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#51 Posted by Yummylee (24646 posts) -

@soldierg654342 said:

@yummylee said:

@soldierg654342 said:

Bummer you didn't like Order of Ecclesia. It's probably my favorite game since Symphony. But then again, I actually like Lament of Innocence so what do I know.

Never played any of the PS2 releases, primarily because the reception to them has been rather tepid at best. What styles of games are they anyway? Are they hack n slash DMC-like affairs?

They are basically DMC and Metroidvania light. They combat system isn't terrible complex, and there's not a ton of exploring, but Lament of Innocence nails the feel of Castlevania the best of any of the 3D games. Curse of Darkness is better in both the combat and exploration, but it doesn't feel as Castlevania-ey. The reception on them were mixed because they don't scratch either itch quite like you want them. Lament of Innocence may have my favorite sound track of the series though.

Y'know, you had inspired me to at least give a quick browse on amazon to see what they're going for, and... Well, for as much as you yourself enjoy them, I can't say I feel comfortable gambling with the prices both Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness are going for unfortunately.

@slag: I'll be sure to make a note for Guacamelee! Though I think I'll let it stew for a little longer until I have a PS4 and get that version.

@yummylee: Have you played "Rondo of Blood" before?

Nope, haven't played any of the OG pre-SoTN Castlevania games.

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#52 Posted by SoldierG654342 (1900 posts) -

@yummylee said:

@soldierg654342 said:

@yummylee said:

@soldierg654342 said:

Bummer you didn't like Order of Ecclesia. It's probably my favorite game since Symphony. But then again, I actually like Lament of Innocence so what do I know.

Never played any of the PS2 releases, primarily because the reception to them has been rather tepid at best. What styles of games are they anyway? Are they hack n slash DMC-like affairs?

They are basically DMC and Metroidvania light. They combat system isn't terrible complex, and there's not a ton of exploring, but Lament of Innocence nails the feel of Castlevania the best of any of the 3D games. Curse of Darkness is better in both the combat and exploration, but it doesn't feel as Castlevania-ey. The reception on them were mixed because they don't scratch either itch quite like you want them. Lament of Innocence may have my favorite sound track of the series though.

Y'know, you had inspired me to at least give a quick browse on amazon to see what they're going for, and... Well, for as much as you yourself enjoy them, I can't say I feel comfortable gambling with the prices both Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness are going for unfortunately.

Lament of Innocence is available for download on PSN for $10. I wouldn't say that's an unreasonable price, but if you see it used somewhere for cheaper for it. I just looked them up on Amazon and yeah, $25-ish isn't a good price for thoes games at this point.

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#53 Posted by Yummylee (24646 posts) -

@soldierg654342: I'm English so it may not be available on the European PSN store, but I'll be sure to give it a look see. Also, on Amazon.co.uk a new copy is going for £24, which roughly equates to about $40... There is a used copy that's £11/$18 with P&P, though. But for a PS2 game from 2003 that still seems a little pricey...

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#54 Posted by GERALTITUDE (5990 posts) -
@slag said:

@geraltitude said:

@slag said:

@geraltitude said:

Amazing blog..

Thanks for the read. I should really finish SotN.

Any thoughs on what a new 2D vania for consoles should aim for?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but as someone who plays these kinds of games too.... and assuming you are talking about the genre not just Castlevania.

What I'd like to see is a lot more variation in story telling/theme and setting. There's too many games in this vein that are too blatantly trading too hard on Metroid Tropes (isolation, futuristic empty eerie alien environments, etc) as wannabe clones. A game like Guacamelee (your avatar is Javier Jaguar yeah?) or even Shadow Complex I think demonstrates how versatile this genre can be.

Mechanically I don't think the wheel necessarily needs to be invented here although new wrinkles never hurt (I like the Roguelike mashups Rogue Legacy and Abyss Odyssey too), but there is a whole wealth of settings and stories that remain untapped in this genre.

oh slag, my questions are always open to you. Not sure if it's your fault or where this tick developed but I use "slag!" as a catch all curse word for things like stubbing my toe, things going wrong with work, etc. Actually I guess maybe that makes it sound like I don't like you?

Anyways.. :D

I definitely agree the tone of so many vanias is too similar.

Obviously, I love the hell out of Guacamelee. There are four things that stand out to me from that game versus a usual Metroidvania.

  • 1) very fast, high skill platforming
  • 2) fighting game-style combo combat that can be demanding
  • 3) towns!
  • 4) Bright colours and tons of energy

A new vania wouldn't need to borrow any or all of these, but any one of the 4 could be an interesting addition.

Thinking about Rogue Legacy makes me think of a Castlevania where you play through generations of Belmonts. Would be cool!

Thanks man, always dig your insight!

Hah, yeah sometimes I feel conflicted changing my name, but Slag has been my favorite Dinobot for decades so I'm pretty attached to it. It wasn't till a few years ago I learned that a word we use in my part of the world to mean a piece of this stuff

No Caption Provided

(Which I also think is cool), is used quite awfully across the pond. btw IDW Transformers comics use "Slag!" the same way you do.

re: Guacamelee

I just played Guacamelee about 5 months ago and I loved it. To me it felt a lot like a Zelda 2 if it was done today (with obviously different artstyle and aesthetic) if it were done right). Clearly the in game references showed Z2 definitely was a deliberate influence too I loved it for many the reasons you did, but mainly I really loved how it tapped into a setting/aesthetics we don't see often enough in games (looked very reminscient of that old cartoon Mucha Lucha). Man was that game pretty. The platforming in that game was really good too, and of course the combat was excellent as you mentioned.

Really though I think it's an excellent proof of concept of what is truly important about Metroid from a genre standpoint. It isn't space, Samus, or being abandoned in a humanless environment (although all those things are great in their own right), It's being able to go anywhere in a side scrolling world, while having some of your paths and areas gated by tools/abilities you need to acquire through combat trials/dungeons.

It's the same thing that worked in the original Legend of Zelda (despite the topdown perspective) and would have worked in Adventure of Link if the save system wasn't so harsh.

I feel like despite the genre being so old, it has so much untapped potential creatively. I think the fact people call them Metroidvanias in a way is evidence (similiar to how FPS was once Doom Clone and MOBAs were once DotAlikes) that there is a lot more that can be done here.

You're absolutely right a Castlevania: Belmont Legacy would be absolutely incredible! Especially given the lore of this series!

Man sometimes the way quoting works gives me a small aneurysm. Is it just my cursor that gets stuck in the quote block? Sheesh. Anywho..

Love the name Slag, don't change it. Totally forgot about that dinobot. Is he in the latest movie? Did you see it?

I have to admit this shame so I'll just do it now - Zelda 2 is my Zelda Black Hole. The one I never played... So many people have told me to check it out. Is it on the Wii Virtual Console? I'm really itching to try it after reading your post.

Guacamelee -

Yeah, the setting is the absolute star in that game. I love how deep the Luchador concept goes with all throw attacks, or aesthetically, like when you get into boss fights and it does that awesome VERSUS screen. Also the use of the pinata after every room battle is great.

Such a pretty game and the music is such a strong character too.

The ability gating in the game is just exceptional, and going back to old areas with new abilities was sooo cool. I really felt like the Guaca designers were masters of layering abilities into areas in a subtle way. Finding out all the places you can do Goat Fly for example is awesome. I bought Super Turbo Championship Edition and the new additions are mostly really excellent.

@yummylee: play Guacamelee! Would love to hear your thoughts after this wild blast through Castlevania.

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#55 Edited by Slag (8157 posts) -

Slag deleted a bunch of stuff for readability

Man sometimes the way quoting works gives me a small aneurysm. Is it just my cursor that gets stuck in the quote block? Sheesh. Anywho..

Love the name Slag, don't change it. Totally forgot about that dinobot. Is he in the latest movie? Did you see it?

I have to admit this shame so I'll just do it now - Zelda 2 is my Zelda Black Hole. The one I never played... So many people have told me to check it out. Is it on the Wii Virtual Console? I'm really itching to try it after reading your post.

Guacamelee -

Yeah, the setting is the absolute star in that game. I love how deep the Luchador concept goes with all throw attacks, or aesthetically, like when you get into boss fights and it does that awesome VERSUS screen. Also the use of the pinata after every room battle is great.

Such a pretty game and the music is such a strong character too.

The ability gating in the game is just exceptional, and going back to old areas with new abilities was sooo cool. I really felt like the Guaca designers were masters of layering abilities into areas in a subtle way. Finding out all the places you can do Goat Fly for example is awesome. I bought Super Turbo Championship Edition and the new additions are mostly really excellent.

@yummylee: play Guacamelee! Would love to hear your thoughts after this wild blast through Castlevania.

Yeah Slag kinda was in the latest movie, or rather a Triceratops Dinobot was. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Slug_(AOE). It was probably meant to be a version of him. Slag in recent years outside a few places such as the War for Cybertron Games and the IDW comics has been usually rebranded by Hasbro as "Slug" (or sometimes appropriating fellow dinobot Snarl's name) in most appearances due to the way his name is colloquially used in Great Britain. Transformers unfortunately does not have a good history with being respectful of other cultures likely due to quality control inattention more than anything overtly intended, so as much as I like the name I respect Hasbro for finally trying to clean up some of the really unnecessary egregious miscues this franchise seems to have from time to time.

I enjoyed the movie in the sense that I enjoy anything with Transformers in them. After going through a period where I thought Transformers were going away I'm just grateful to be able to have new content at all, but I can't say objectively the movie was any good. It's sad to me because there is a lot of compelling Transformers stories and characters (especially in the comics) but the movies do their best job of dumbing down the franchise to its' barest elements. Transformers is not Shakespeare by any stretch of the imagination, but it certainly has plenty of source material good enough to be roughly on the level of say a Batman Begins if done with skill. Still I'm just glad to be able to see dinobots in live action, That's something I thought I'd never get to see in my life.

re:Zelda 2- I don't know if it's on Virtual Console. I would assume so. I played it back on the NES and again on The Ocarina of Time Gamecube Master Edition. It holds up reasonably well. When I first played I hated it. It was only years later that I realized that the game was great and really ahead of its time with a lot of innovative ideas, it's just the save system was so unfriendly (even by NES standards) it ruined the experience for me.

If you get to play it, I think you'll see how strong of an influence it was on the Guacamelee folks in a very good way. Especially the Town system.

re: Guacamelee- Completely agree with everything you said. A lot of games could really learn from Guacamelee, they just did so many things exactly right. I wish I had played last year, as it would have been high on my GotY list.

What did they add in Super Turbo? I have the Gold Edition.

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#56 Posted by Marino (7539 posts) -

@yummylee: I may be late to the party, but you're on the front page now.

Staff Online
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#57 Edited by Yummylee (24646 posts) -
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#58 Posted by yyZiggurat (1080 posts) -

I too recently bought a 3DS (March). All I've been playing are Castlevania: OOC and Push-Mo.

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#59 Posted by Yummylee (24646 posts) -

@yyziggurat: Nice. I take it you too have been enjoying Ecclesia? And right, Push-Mo, or... whatever it's called over in Europe. That's definitely a game I'll hafta try one day whence I can actually access the internet with this thing.

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