Hi there, like most of you good folks I am really looking forward to Cyberpunk 2077. While it is very, very far away from release, and we don't know much about it I am a bit worried. Let me explain you.

Witcher 3 was a home run for CDPR, critical and commercial success. The Witcher universe was introduced to new players and especially console players. Systems were streamlined , tutorials were elegant and smartly designed. I have been a fan of CDPR since the first Witcher and I am glad they finally got recognized. But I am a bit worried for their next game.

I am afraid that Cyberpunk 2077 will not be as daring with specific topics as was the Witcher trilogy. The writing and characters are CDPR strong suit, they write morally ambiguous characters with flaws, they are not shying away from topics such as rape, abuse, casual sex, intimate relationships, racism, torture. They are not afraid to make love interests flawed and complex or empowering females. Witcher games treats player as a intelligent individual.

My worry is that Cyberpunk 2077 will not be as raw and "controversial" as the trilogy. It will be a lot more safe from characterization to tackling serious issues. It will be more welcoming to modern gamers, because it is CDPRs new IP and more mainstream approach would mean a lot more potential customers.

Good examples would be Bethesda games. From Morrowind to Oblivion ,to Fallout 3 to Skyrim and finally to Fallout 4. There is a decline in system complexity and RPGness. Same can be said about Mass Effect and Dragon Age games. Each new game became less and less ambitious from writing standpoint to gameplay systems and characterization in Mass Effect 3 seemed just very meh, it did not had the same spark like it did with ME and ME 2.

So what do you guys think? Do you think I am on to something here or it is just a crazy talk.

I would suggest you worry about things that aren't 2 years in the future. Either it will be good, or it will be bad.

@edgaras1103: I think it's crazy talk. I think if anything they'll be allowed scope to tell even more controversial stories and tackle tough subjects that they just couldn't do in The Witcher games. Things like synthetic life, body modification and augmentation. They can do all those on top of things like rape, sex, racism and torture.

Look at the track Witcher games took. Witcher 1 was just a PC game, 2 was originally a PC game followed by conosles and 3 was everything. If they where happy to put some of their most grim story telling into W3 why would they suddenly turn around and decide to make things politically correct and friendly?

I wouldn't really call Cyberpunk 2077 more mainstream. Even in the pen and paper world it comes from, it's not an original IP don't forget, it's not as mainstream as something like Dungeons and Dragons.

I think a cyberpunk setting sounds perfect for CDPR. When it comes to dealing with dark and tricky topics, cyberpunk would be a gold mine.

While I thought The Witcher 3 had a rather bland open world it had much better dialog and characterization than the first two games. I'm not worried about them shying away from subject matters to become more mainstream if anything with things like Game of Thrones becoming so popular I think we'll see more games going grimdark in the future. (with less success because that requires good writing)

I'm more worried about the systems end of things as I thought The Witcher 3 was a step back mechanicly but that's a rant for another thread. But since it's Cyberpunk it'll likely be a very different game altogether. (unless they're going to cop out and pull a mars war logs)

I don't think the writing in The Witcher 3 is all that great. I agree that they have morally ambiguity within their games but it never struck me as very profound.

I guess we need to start somewhere though. There is some admirable stuff in there but it's surrounded by a lot of drivel.

As for cyberpunk, I think they're going to keep progressing. CD Projekt Red is pretty freaking fantastic and to me it seems like they're still coming into their own.

I hope we get some tease of this at E3 or Gamescom or something. But it will probably be shown at Keighley's Game Awards, they maybe did a little business there (Witcher 3 for GOTY and you get the world premier of Cyberpunk's gameplay next year).

Really curious how this will play. Story, sound and graphics are probably fine, but give me some good gameplay! Or else make it turn based combat or something, that could work..

Witcher 3 + Guns sounds like a great game. Give me.

@edgaras1103:

@spraynardtatum: Not trying to start an argument about opinions on what's good writing and what's bad writing etc. but what do you consider to be good writing in games?

I feel that a lot of the writing in the Witcher 3 was in service of the world building and thought overall it was fantastic, but I enjoy seeing things from another's point of view.

I had these fears when CDPR was talking about making Witcher 2. Going from topdown to third person to open world they have always delivered despite the seemingly impossible tasks. No other gamestudio constantly tries completly new things with such a success so nowdays im fully confident in CDPR to deliver a GOTY in whatever setting they choose.

CDPR is an actual developer with a very defined coreteam unlike other studios that largely are just a brand they slap on different outsourced software (Hello EA/Bioware) so you can trust that their future content is gonna be in line with their past becouse... its the same dudes. The same artists, the same writers, the same programmers, the same leadership.

You need only to play the first expansion for W3 and you see that they are continueing to deliver whats promised.

I'm actually more hopeful for cyberpunk because their is more you can do with that setting in terms of interesting writing related to modern society than a fantasy setting. Not to say they didn't hit strong themes in the witcher I just think they can go more out of the box with this setting.

If anything the leaps and bounds of progress they made in the witchers has me really excited for Cyberpunk. Science fiction has a lot of potential to be just as challenging and grim in terms of story - and don't forget, they were working from source material with the Witcher. I also don't expect them to change how they write anything for a mainstream audience. They were surprised at how much 3 caught on.

I'm both excited and trying to keep my expectations in line with it. While I liked The Witcher 3, I felt the ways it became more of an open-world game than Witcher 2 actually hurt the game in a lot of ways. I probably prefer 2 overall, which was a much tighter experience. So with Cyberpunk attempting to be even bigger, I am a little bit concerned about it. if it means even more of the duller content from Witcher 3, then that wouldn't be interesting.

On the other hand, I think the Witcher narrative and universe was partially responsible for some of the gameplay challenges the game had. One of the most important aspects of an open-world game to me is gameplay that continues to evolve throughout the game and is also extremely customizable to the player. With Witcher 3, Geralt was such a defined concept of a character that they had to work with that I think it limited them.

There's also just the fact fantasy is a much more well-worn genre in video games than cyberpunk at this point. So by default, I'm probably going in with greater interest than I did with Witcher, even while being a fan of the fantasy genre.

You guys are crazy by saying it W2 is better/tighter than 3. Heck, W1 is just a better Witcher experience for me compared to 2. 2 was the weakest of the trilogy.

I read somewhere that Cyberpunk will give you create your own character. And that is disappointing for me, we have those kind of games in spades. I prefer defined character. And wonder is it gonna be fps or 3rd person.

As someone who rarely gets hyped about anything, Cyberpunk 2077 is the most 'hyped up' I am about any video game that has yet to be released. I don't have any real attachment to the wizards and dragons fantasy style of video games so getting a great developer like CDPR on something like Cyberpunk 2077 is like a dream come true.

As long as my PC can go into cyberpsychosis after I installed too many cyberware on it, I'll be happy.

If anything they now have way more freedom to do whatever they want story wise/gameplay wise because they have no lore to adhere to; they had debates of whether or not they should introduce a crossbow in Witcher 3. Cyberpunk is dark in general, and probably has more of a presence in video games than dark fantasy does, so it will be interesting to see what they could explore and do that would be fresh by comparison.

This is the world of Cyberpunk. If it doesn't tackle heavy-handed topics, then it wouldn't be Cyberpunk at all. Maybe I just don't understand why the OP thinks CDPR would lighten things up for Cyberpunk. Hell, The Pond is on the game also! I don't think he's going to let them fuck this up.

Portal 2, The Stanley Parable, South Park, and Wolfenstein: The New Order are a few that come to mind. I don't consider many games to have good writing. It's a bummer of an opinion but it's what I want to improve most within the gaming space.

If this game is worse than the Witcher 3 it will undoubtedly be the worst game ever made, considering the Witcher 3 is the best Western RPG of all time, anything even slightly worse is a total disaster for CD Projekt. Yep. Your concerns are mostly ridiculous and have very little bearing on the game itself.

CD Project has continued to support the community they have fostered over the years. Whenever they made a mistake they've usually tried to fix any problems found in the game. Plus they are a dedicated PC first company. That alone with guarantee some of the complexity that their current fans want.

Cyberpunk seems like one of the better examples of a game that was announced way too earlier. I look forward to seeing what that game is in 2018. Until then, I would just wait and see what they have to say about it.

@edgaras1103: Why does a game that sheds some systems mean that it's dumb downed for the masses. Oblivion's leveling system was one of the most obtuse and complex leveling systems I've ever seen in a RPG. It was so stupid it actively encouraged you to use destruction spells on yourself to level up your character. Streamling that a little made for a better game and allowed them to put other systems in game.

@mikey87144: I never said dumb downed for masses. Also can you say streamlining Fallout 4 made a better game? Or the change from Dragon Age: Origins to 2, to Inquisition is also better experience?

@fredchuckdave: hey, at least I am not using hyperboles.

@jakob187 said:

OP is unfamiliar with Cyberpunk as a brand, which is fine, since it's an old PnP RPG heavily influenced by Neuromancer (but then again, what Cyberpunk isn't?). Most people nowadays who play games, or play RPGs, have no history with PnP games. That's just the way the genre has evolved. Tabletop RPGs are making a comeback thanks to sites like Roll20 and applications like Skype, but it's still a long way off from the prominent position PnP RPGs had in the 70s and 80s.

Also Pondsmith being involved with 2077 is probably the major reason I'm hyped for this game. I'm not even the biggest Cyberpunk fan (the game, not the genre), but I'm intrigued to see what he brings to a video game based on Cyberpunk.

I could just as easily make a case for why you should be super excited base don what we know.

There's virtually zero info out there about Cyberpunk 2077. I suggest waiting for something concrete before panicking prematurely.

Eh, differing opinions and all that. I don't want to throw your thread off the rails by starting a which Witcher game is best debate as it all comes down to personal preference. Plus I said I might prefer 2. I'd have to think further on it. They're both 4/5 star games to me. It's more an issue I have with almost any open-world game. You have a gameplay style that is go anywhere, do anything at your own pace with lots and lots of things to do. As a result, it's difficult to pace your A story. Bethesda RPGs for instance get around this with sidequests containing the more interesting narrative, while the A stories tend to be fairly weak and serve just as a means of pressing you forward to a final destination.

Back to Cyberpunk, I look at what CDPR did well with Witcher 3 and what they didn't, and I'm worried when I hear that it's going to be an even bigger game. The way they got "bigger" with W3 was mostly the weakest portions of the game. My major hope they can figure things out is a lot of the limitations on Witcher 3's gameplay were because there was this defined idea of what Geralt was like to play. It set some very definitive limitations on what the gameplay could be. Whether the character is more defined or more customizable from a story perspective isn't as big of an issue, though I'm cool with it being fully customizable to me. I think you can also hit a sweet spot in the middle as well for instance with the idea of Shepard in Mass Effect.

We'll see. I'm looking forward either way to seeing what they can come up with.

@cav829: I'm sorry I don't think I understand. Are you saying Bethesda games have better written sidequests?

While it's understandable that people may not be familiar with Cyberpunk as a brand because of how long ago the last edition was released, that doesn't mean that there's any reason to believe that a cyberpunk-inspired game by the company making The Witcher games would be dumbing something down. Any single person could have no idea what Mirrorshades is, who Gibson is, or anything that goes along those lines...but if CD Projekt Red is on the case, you can almost guarantee that it's going to be mature and not shy away from hard-button topics.

As for Pondsmith's involvement and fandom, I'm personally a huge fan of the PnP (although I haven't done a campaign in at least two decades now). I'm curious if they'll be using something similar to Standard Interlock for the stats system, as well as how much combat will be influenced by the FNF system...if at all.

So long as it's still about style over substance, then I'm all for it.

Yeh, better written sidequests than their mainquests that is. Not better written sidequests than Witcher ;)

@edgaras1103: The tabletop game had all kinds of ridiculous and wacky fun, but a whole lot of horrible. If it is at all true to the source it will be plenty dark and gritty, like the abduction of teens to act as pregnancy surrogates for wealthy families, with the quirky nod like two old electronics guys named Steve running kiosks in the Megaplex Mall of Night City (set a bit south of Silicon Valley) with a fruit fetish.

Not at all! Oh heavens no. And I am a bigger Fallout fan than I am Witcher fan (though bigger Witcher fan than Elder Scrolls), but that'd be crazy to suggest. I just using the Bethesda example to talk about how open-world RPGs get around the issues pacing an A story properly with a game like that. Like @rethla said, the sidequests in Bethesda games always are more interesting than the A stories, which are usually fairly basic.

It's a very interesting topic to me as I watch different developers try to solve for the issue as their games get bigger.

I actually hesitated touching that subject again because the last time I tried to mention it, I got a similar "wait, are you saying Bethesda RPGs have better than story" reaction and had to spend 10 minutes trying to explain it again lol. Sorry for any confusion.

CD Projekt Red's writing abilities have improved greatly during The Witcher series. The writing for the first game was above average for a fantasy RPG but wasn't exceptional, the storylines were interesting but the characters were not very complex beyond some general subversion of genre archetypes. The second game was a big step up, it started to match the tone and character complexity of the novels. I would say the writing in the third game might actually exceed the novels (though I haven't read all the novels).

They are being praised for the writing and presentation of very complex characters like the Bloody Baron so I can't really see them toning their storytelling ambitions down for Cyberpunk 2077. There are no market forces telling them that they need to change their storytelling methods since Witcher 3 is their best selling game and the most dark and complex from a story perspective.

That said I expect Cyberpunk 2077 to have a different tone from The Witcher. The writing in the series is very heavily influenced by the style of Andrzej Sapkowski, even the gameplay of the series basically matches how Sapkowski wrote Geralt's investigation, preparation and combat methods. So with Cyberpunk they are free to define their own world and gameplay systems. The setting gives them a lot of license to go pretty dark with their subject matter so I really doubt they won't take that opportunity.

For the gameplay I could see them continuing to streamline their approach and continue to have a console focused design approach but to be honest a lot of the systems in those first two games are kinda messy and even The Witcher 3 has a lot of aspects that feel like it could use some more redesign and polish.

@spraynardtatum: I was surprised by how much liked Wolfenstein. I am pretty much done with regular FPS' but I really enjoyed that game :) BJ was so tragic and he had a real sadness in his eyes that was weird in a video game. Those are some really good picks man, I too hope that the writing in games gets better, especially RPG's. Laters dude.

Your concerns seem pretty unfounded, considering how little we know about the game. I assumed CDPR's history would insulate them from this sort of hand-wringing.

@encephalon: But don't you agree that W2 was a different shift in tone from W1, like a bit too jarring for me. The aesthetics did not grab me as much. It always seemed to like the whole game was rushing to get to the end, and when the epilogue happened my reaction was "That's it ?" I wanted something like the chapter 4 from W1 and while Vergen was pretty neat it lacked something. Maybe I am realizing I just don't like W2 that much lol.

I don't feel like anything in CDPRs history should lead you to be worried in this way. I understand what you mean in general though. When companies get very popular and more mainstream they often lose their edge. While it's fair to be worried, I feel CDPR is beyond this and has earned some level of "trust" or at least they have from me.

Witcher 2 was indeed a shift from Witcher 1, but mostly it added some "bigger, more bombastic" elements. It did not remove any of the raw nerve present in the Witcher 1. And I'd say Witcher 3 more than doubles down on Witcher 1's style & tone. I've said a few times on this forum 3 is much closer to 1 than it is to 2, so as regards the writing.

Plus, it kind of sounds like maybe you are a bit unfamiliar with the world of Cyberpunk. Just like the Witcher, this is a world that is steeped in darker themes, which is common for cyberpunk in general. Considering the care they showed to the world of the Witcher, I assume the same respect and accuracy will be applied to Cyberpunk.

Finally, I AM REALLY EXCITED FOR THIS GAME.

:D

It's case by case. I never said all games that are streamlined are better for it. Dragon Age is one of the best examples of how it can go really badly. Mass Effect 2 is one of the best of examples of it going well.

Yeah I get what the OP is getting at but I think given the subject matter it's based off (plenty dark if still with the garish cyberpunk elements) and CD Projekt so far I am expecting something mature. I actually think there's even more room for controversial stuff that will hit more close to home than it does in Witcher as well but we will have to see.

Cyberpunk 2077 already got in trouble for pushing stuff too far but mentioning that some people in that world are into some nasty sims. I wouldn't worry about them softballing it

@glots: Good on them for not giving into the ransom, I hope this doesn't mean we aren't going to see anything official released for another long time. If that's the case hopefully the materials leaked will give some idea of what I'm looking forward to!

@glots: When stuff like this comes up can you please just start a new topic instead of bumping something that is 18 months old?

I wouldn't worry. This game is based on a setting that had an NPC from an NPC-based splatbook that was famous. She was famous because she was once on the cover of Time as a six year old. That six year old was dirty and wild eyed and sporting a holdout pistol in the ruins of her once middle class neighborhood during the Collapse in the US that makes up the backstory of this setting. That Collapse has a lot of topical factors. Ongoing ambivalence to pandemics happening elsewhere, a neverending war on drugs and engagement in foreign brush wars, and of course serious social stratification based on lack of economic mobility. Another brief flavor passage clearly details (from the point of view of the abductee) a teenaged girl that was in the most generous viewing used as a surrogate womb and more likely as a victim of repeated rape to provide a child to a wealthy family. Which is about as economically dystopian as it gets.

That said it's also a setting where in the Bay Area two old Techies by the name of Steve run some electronics kiosks in the local Mall Megaplex that have a certain...fruit based iconography...

And REO Meatwagon is the name for the number two company for emergency (and AGGRESSIVE) ambulance services.