So, I was on my normal rounds around Majula talking to NPCs for new dialogue.

I ended up talking to the cat in her house and she ends up saying something really interesting about her.... In short, The cat says that the Bastille was built a long time ago to imprison the cursed undead but it failed, and that in it's depths resides the Lost Sinner, that once tried recreate the first flame and punishes herself for committing that ultimate sin.


So, I tackled the boss again in New Game+ and what does she drop? Old Witch Soul, Pretty crazy.

I'm really liking this games lore, it's easier to find than Dark Souls so I'm actually able to find a majority of it.

All four old ones actually drop the Lord's Souls in NG+, IIRC. Also note the Chaos Witch, I think that was her name, crawls into the Lost SInner's eye in the boss cutscene.

Pretty sure the lost sinner is the King's old #2. Read the rebel's greatshield item description. It says there was a female knight who was once the king's left hand while Velstadt was his right. At some point he determined she was a traitor and etc etc etc...

I wouldn't say that she is the Witch of Izalith, more that the souls of the great Big Bads from the DS1 are still around and influence things several cycles later. Souls of Nito, Seath, the Witch and Gwyn are all there.

The bug thing that was inside the bed of chaos does crawl into the lost sinner's eye when you first see her.

Yeah, that would explain the soul, but she must have found the soul and tried recreating the first flame with it.

@karkarov: "Shield of the rebel Raime. Raime and Velstadt were known as the left- and right-arms of the King, until their wills clashed, and Raime was deemed a traitor. The black raven is despised as an augur of death, but it was Raime's favorite bird." I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Raime is a female or the Lost Sinner.

Because Raime is mentioned no where else, the "lost sinners" name has been forgotten, Raime's "will clashed with the king", and the lost sinner tried to relight the first flame which definitely would not have sat well with the King. While there is no in game evidence suggesting Raime is a woman Raime IS a woman's name http://www.babynology.com/meaning-raime-f6.html and it fits with why no one remembers her or knows the lost sinners name.

It is certainly a stronger theory than saying the Lost Sinner is the Witch of Izalith just because a bug crawls in her mask. I will also point out that while the Lost Sinners gear can boost pyromancy... the Lost Sinner never actually uses pyromancy themselves.

Also, Vestatd holds the soul of Solaire.

I assumed he was a weird reference to Demon's Souls because he's referred to as a knight "from a faraway land", in his armor description. And we all know who he resembles.

I'm more inclined to think the bone dust is the Solaire reference, that's just how I like to interpret it anyway.

Yeah I like to think that Dark Souls 2 exists in a timeline where it wasn't the Chosen Undead who rekindled the bonfire/chose to be the Dark Lord but in the world where Solaire rekindled the first flame. I think the references to him becoming a saint and being revered as a God of the Sun is a fitting end for Solaire, he finally got to be as grossly incandascent as he wanted to be after all.

Plus it kind of gives me that feeling that in all the shit that goes on in the Dark Souls universe at least one person, perhaps the most deserving person, got to be happy and get what they desired.

You're referring to Garl Vinland/Leeroy I gather?

Yep.

I think the referene to Solaire comes in the form of the Sunlight Parma (I think that's the name), the small shield you get for giving 10 sunlight medals. It says something about "remembering a fallen warrior" and has a picture of what I assumed to be Solaire on it. Could be wrong.

None of the reasons you listed point to Raime and the Lost Sinner being the same person. You're stretching on all of your attempts at connecting the two. Because the Lost Sinner's name has been forgotten and we know very little about Raime, they're the same person? Because relighting the first flame might not sit well with Vendrick (side note: is this even true?), that's the act that made Raime considered a traitor? Not one of a hundred possible other things that would have made her a traitor? And who says no one remembers Raime? The Lost Sinner's name being forgotten is an argument against your theory. You don't forget someone's name if they're known for something as significant as she is if it happened relatively recently.

It's certainly not a stronger theory than the Witch of Izalith theory at all. She drops the Old Witch Soul, pyromancers come to her aid, and she is known for doing exactly what the Witch of Izalith attempted to do before the first Dark Souls. Whether she herself is the Witch (unlikely since we know from Quelana that she and some of her daughters were consumed when accidentally creating the Bed of Chaos) or if the chaos bug is all that's left of her soul, I don't know.

Whoever the Lost Sinner actually is, the idea that the Witch of Izalith is somehow involved has a lot of evidence to support it.

"Soul of the ineffable. This once-magnificent soul continues to exert influence over the land, even after the eons have reduced it to these remnants." - Old Witch Soul description

Right. And Duke Deja's Fear drops Seath's soul so I am supposed to think that means Seath turned into a giant spider? Every mob in the game doesn't have to be a rehash from dark souls 1. The witch can have all the influence she wants, that doesn't make the Lost Sinner the witch, or mean my suggestion is complete nonsense which you seem to suggest it is. This is why I don't like Dark Souls lore people, if the wiki doesn't force feed it to you or Epic Name Bro doesn't say it, it must be wrong!

I didn't say she is the Witch. I said the Witch is likely connected in some way. It's nice that you decided to ignore everything I wrote.

There's no need to get so defensive. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you provided no actual evidence to support your theory. There is actual evidence that backs up the idea that the Witch of Izalith is somehow connected to the Lost Sinner.

There don't seem to be many coincidences when it comes to Dark Souls lore. The developers specifically gave her the Old Witch Soul in NG+ and added pyromancers to help defend her. They made a chaos bug crawl into the Lost Sinner's eye during the cutscene before the boss fight for a reason. Why Duke Deja's Fear drops Seath's soul, I don't know. But I'll bet there's a reason.

No there are tons of coincidences in Dark Souls lore. That said, I never once commented that "the Witch isn't involved" I said "the Lost Sinner isn't the Witch". Big difference. My theory of the Lost Sinner can still be correct, and the Witch can still be the one who manipulated her. Those aren't mutually exclusive theories. The theory that the Lost Sinner IS the Witch however is pure nonsense.

@karkarov: @hsghsghsg: I don't see how the Lost Sinner couldn't be Raime and still be connected to the Chaos Witch of Izalith (considering the tiny bug that crawls up in the Sinner). Here's what we know.

• The Lost Sinner committed "the ultimate sin" in Drangleic. Her punishment was imprisonment, most likely in isolation, for the remainder of her days (lord knows how long she's been locked up)
• The "ultimate sin" in Drangleic is considered to be an attempt to relight the first flame (important to note that she didn't try to recreate it as Chaos Witch Izalith did)
• The Lost Sinner drops the Old Witch Soul on NG+

Quick question, but is the fire fading out in Dark Souls 2? I can't remember anyone mentioning if it was or not. Come to think of it, kindling the fire doesn't factor at all into the plot. Weird.

Anway, I'd like to posit a theory; the person who links the fire (or secures the first flame, whatever) is now twice seen as becoming the new God King Emperor of All. It's happened with Gwyn, and it likely happened with Vendrick. In that regard, "relighting the first flame" before its appointed time (say, when it's burning out) could be considered an attempt to usurp the power of the current God King Emperor (who in Drangleic is Vendrick). That's pretty treacherous, in my opinion. Maybe the Lost Sinner tried to relight it due to the influence of the chaos bug (it is after all a much tinier version of the Bed of Chaos), or perhaps she was trying to steal the kingdom/power of the fire for herself. Either way, the point remains that this would be plenty enough reason for Vendrick to throw her in jail forever and ever. It's shaky, I know, but considering how little we all know about Drangleic's history right now it's the best I can do (also worth pointing out that neither theory contradicts the other, you guys).

However I have a thought; what if we're not just "in" Drangleic in the sense that it's all the ruins of one kingdom? I've been thinking about the Iron Keep for the past couple of days, and how the Old Iron King was said to be swallowed by a beast of fire (most likely becoming the Balrog, or the Balrog ate the Old Iron King's soul). I'm thinking that, yes, Drangleic is the current incarnation of this kingdom, but what if the other areas are ruins of previous cycles? Heide's Tower of Flame has zero resemblance to Drangleic Castle. Instead, it looks like the spitting image of Anor Londo. The Lost Bastille could be the ruins of another cycle, and the Lost Sinner is the prisoner/inmate of another monarch all together.

Maybe I'm grasping, but I have a hard time reconciling that King Vendrick is painted as this honourable, just monarch who ruled fairly and loved his people, and yet a just, noble man like that would allow shenanigans like the undead hunts. That he'd allow the Duke of Tseldora to sacrifice the burgeoning mining town to fucking spiders. There's also Aldia, Vendrick's brother, and the lore suggests that Aldia and Vendrick had a falling out once Vendrick learned of the horrific experiments Aldia was performing. Vendrick just doesn't seem like the kind of king who would allow certain things to happen, which is why I now think it's not just Drangleic we're exploring, but many different kingdoms (built on top of each other, natch, like Jenga).

Anyhow, that's all I got at the moment. I don't think we're just in Vendrick's kingdom, but we visit/explore previous kingdoms as well. Or at least, small fractions of those kingdoms.

Actually a pretty good point, notice how when I raised it in another thread I never said she was the witch but the holder of the witches soul, which is slightly different. The holders of the soul are always cursed to follow the actions of the original, they will always be influnced to try to recreate/relight the first flame when the start of the Age of Darkness starts to roll around. The lost sinner herself isn't the Witch. What remains of the witch beyond the soul is that thing that crawls inside her eyesockets and sends her beserk. A fragment of the Bed of Chaos if you will.

Perhaps such a thing happens to all who try to recreate/relight the first flame, perhaps as part of the curse they all essentially become/are hosts for this strange creature, this demon of chaos. Of course this time thanks to someone actually thinking it would be a bad idea to do that (perhaps under influence of a certain fragment of soul on the opposite end of the spectrum to the Lord Souls) . Perhaps this was the falling out the led to Raime being listed as a traitor and imprisoned. Perhaps she thought that rekindling the fire was the better option and the King was like "eh..the Queen says that's a really bad idea, perhaps you shouldn't..." she tries it anyway, causing what little of the Bed of Chaos that remained to resurface by only at a fraction of the power due to the King, his right hand man and the Queen stepping in before we had another Lost Izalith incident.

The birthing of Demons is always linked to the holder of the Witches soul become the Bed of Chaos at full power. There are no demons in Dark souls 2, there are no Capra, no Tarus, no Imps with lightning spears, no gigantic dragon asses that sit on you, because she was stopped before she got even close. The Smelter Demon is hinted at being a construct given life by a soul (i.e. a Golem of sorts) and not an actual demon.

The Lord souls influence the fate of the holders, they do not BECOME the holders but they always suffer the same fate. The holder of the witches soul will always try to relight the first flame and fail, a portion of them will be corrupted into become the creature of chaos, depending on how far they succeeded. The holder of Gwyn's soul will always be obsessed by and then consumed by fire. The holder of Nito's soul will always be a collection of the dead (skeletons or corpses) which seeks to bring life to that which cannot or should not have it.

Now Seathe's soul is odd, unique in fact in that it wasn't a Lord Soul originally, there were only four Lord souls. One for Gwyn, One for Nito, One for the Witch and the last, that opposite of the Lord souls, the Dark Soul, taken by the furtive Pygmy and then shattered and scattered amongst mankind. Seathe was gifted a portion of the power of Gwyn and should have, much like that of the four Kings, be subsumed back into the whole when take into the Lord Vessel. However Seathe, due to his experimentation and his madness changed his fragment into something bigger, something unique to him effectively become a Lord Soul.

Much like the other souls, now it has its own 'fate', it influences the holder. The seek to empower and experiment, to look to the forbidden, to go mad with the revelations. The Duke, so obsessed with spiders, he infused his creation, his dear Frejia, with the Lord soul he had been given, creating this monstrosity through a combination of magic and arcane science, he used the Soul of Seathe to essentially give it life.

They have influence over those near them. In Freja's case you find Seath's influence and power encased in crystal. The Duke of Brightstone cove was influenced by Seath's soul and experimented with the crystal that Brightstone's workers found in the mines and made monsters as Seath did. Remember too that Seath was also known as a 'Duke'.

There's too much evidence to deny they are linked in some way, the NG+ souls just kind of knock you over the head with the fact. That they are the exact same people/creatures? Most likely not.

Hate to break it to you, but the Lost Sinner isn't Raime. Raime is the Fume Knight, his armor is called Raime's set and he goes nuts seeing hits brother's (Velatadt's) armor and imidiatly enters phase 2 of the Boss fight if your wearing it. I can give you more reason's but I'm on mobile so y'know. I will be happy to answer any questions.

The Lost Sinner is actually The Witch of Izalith, as it clearly states in the collector's edition. It says it in black and white, 'The Witch of Izalith'.