I want to start off by saying this is not a rage thread. I've been playing the game for 32 hours now, and have been enjoying it through and through. But its issues are starting to wear me down. The more I play, the more the novelty wears off, and I find myself just running past enemies whenever possible.

I haven't played Demon's Souls, so this is my first entry into a souls game, and I was highly excited for it. Before the game's release, I read oh-so many posts about how it's difficult, but never unfair. Well, I think it is unfair in many ways, and I will break it down.

1. AI. This game's AI is not good. It goes both ways, you can outsmart the AI and defeat it, which is good, or you can die because the AI has advantages you don't. For example, the AI can hack through walls, themselves, their buddies, and their mother without damaging anything, or their weapon hitting an obstacle. This is really showing once you have several enemies in a corridor, and you can't do anything; because if you swing, your sword will just hit the wall, and they will take you out easily. The stairs are another problem, if there is an enemy beneath you, he can hack you through the stairs and below your shield, leaving you completely defenseless.

2. Camera. This is probably the most common issue. The camera seems to be always somewhere you don't want it to be. This is especially unfair against big bosses. I never felt like I had a good eye on the bosses when fighting them, so I always had to roll blindly to avoid them, and while that worked half the time, half the time I would get hit by its attacks and lose half my health. The camera can get behind walls, pillars, enemies themselves, and all in all it's just a hassle.

3. Lack of context. Now let me say this first, I love the exploration, and the hidden paths, and various hidden loot around the areas. But, this game would've been much better if they just gave you a simple "Go "here"" line from the NPCs. The first objective is to ring the two bells, I rang the first bell, and the most obvious path after that was the Darkroot Garden, so I went there, and spent probably 4 hours there, while that was never the place to go. So I finally gave up and bought the guide, and I figured out where to go. That is not fair. When I beat the Gargoyle bosses, I got a "Basement Key", it was in the midst of the battle so I just pressed A to move on to not die, and never figured out where this basement was. Point is, I call bullshit on a game that is so confusing, you need a guide to make progress in it. I love all the NPCs, and the tone of the game, but it could do with a little more context.

4. Controls. This is a Xbox 360 issue only, in that most games on the PS3 that use R1/L1 as primary attack buttons, get a switch for the Xbox 360 version, and move to RT/LT. This game doesn't. The LB button which is used for holding the shield is not a button designed to be held down. It's specifically designed for a one-click purpose. So what does this do? It makes for my character constantly jerking his shield up and down because of the button's design. Another thing that has been really bugging me is the lag, which doesn't happen often, but whenever it does, it's deadly. By that I mean, when you press RB, your character does nothing, then after 2 3 seconds, he attacks. Or, you press RB once, he doesn't move, your press it again, and he does a two-hit move. I've been noticing this more and more in Zen's Fortress, while it wasn't an issue earlier in the game, so I don't know what's going on.

So far the game's been fantastic. And I highly recommend everyone to experience it, because it is such a rare game. You don't see games like this anymore, and that's exactly why I love it. I just wish that it these issues weren't there; it would make for a much more enjoyable experience.

Your argument about the lack of context amuses me. Hand holding is not Dark Souls' strong suit and I love it for that.

1. The Souls series would not be the same without the jank 
 
2. Camera has never nagged me in either Demon's or Dark Souls, sure there are tight spots where it not to your advantage, but its far from the most horrible camera in games. 
 
3. The Souls series is not about help, or guidance, you need to figure shit out your self, like in the old days of gaming, get used to it or just stop playing it. And not to be a dick but i played Demon's Souls without a guide, cause there was no guide when i imported it, and it worked out just fine.
 
4. The input lag sucks, but it doesn't happen often, so lets just hope they fix that shit.

The one area I thought was kind of BS was with the first two archers you come accross in Anor Londo. Now, I didn't realize they were kind of cheap until I got further into the level. Those two archers can see you from way way further away than that enemy type is normally capable of doing. So that was kind of BS in hindsight.

1. Use different weapons for different situations. If you're in an indoorsy place with lots of narrow corridors, use your spear or other thrusty weapon. Never had any problems with stairs myself, other that being below enemy range a bunch of times. And that worked out to my advantage.

2. I've died maybe twice in 50 hours because of the camera. Every game has camera problems, and yes it does get in the way from time to time, but all in all I don't think I am experiencing what you are.

3. I don't know, I talked to the annoyed dude at Firelink every time I'd done something and he eventually hinted me on my way. I for sure knew I had to go to Blighttown. I might have looked at a guide once or twice, but there's certainly no need to buy anything. Just if you don't like fumbling a bit in the dark, look it up (online works wonders and is actually intended). Otherwise I found myself quickly realizing if an area was not meant for me yet (getting murdered quickly serves as guidance in this game).

4. I completely agree and hate not having the option of swapping buttons. Never had any lag at all though. I'm also on the 360.

1.  Simple problem to your wall issue: so stop using weapons with wide swinging motions in tight corridors.  Also I have never had any enemy hit me through a wall or through stairs other than the ghosts of new londo that are designed to do that.
 
3.  On context, this has nothing to do with fairness.  This has everything to do with your own perceptiveness.  You can for example just read the item description on said Basement Key when you are not in combat, and realize it is for something in Undead Burg, meaning walking further away for it is probably not the correct path.  Further, Darkroot Garden is not a progressionless place.  It has bosses that are required for progression as well as embers you need for weapon ascensions.  Now whether you failed to do any of that while in the area or not is completely on your own shoulders.

There's only one problem with the game and it's none of these things

Welcome to Dark Souls.
 
Buckle up.

The only valid one of the various points in my opinion is the camera. It never bothered me too much though.

Other than that the OP sounds like he can't handle a video game controller.

1) The AI can be kind of cheap on occassion, but in general I think it's fair. 2) I agree with you the most on this one. The camera is god awful. The fact that it slowly forces itself behind you when you run is the most annoying. You can't look behind you and run away from something unless you've got it auto-locked. And the auto-lock is a bad idea against bosses 99% of the time. 3) I like the lack of context, I think it really makes the game more interesting. 4) Controls are pretty all right on the PS3.

The only problem I have is the fact that the enemies can hack through walls, that's not fair. Even less when your natural reaction to a huge living armor with a huge halberd come towards you can there's a wall separating both of you will be to hide behind the said wall to block the hit. Well no, you can't because their magic weapon have no density and ignore basic physics concepts.

This is dumb, I like that most of the time fights can be fair and positioning can change a whole encounter, but If I get stuck on walls, they should to.

Bite the pillow, it's going in dry.

I'll agree with 2, slightly, but not with the rest of these. 
 
Especially 3. I don't really see why you would need a guide to know where to go next. Also giving a ton of pointing arrows saying "GO HERE NEXT" is not what I want out of a souls game. 

I only agree with point 2. The camera is bad sometimes.

The input lag has caused me more than a few deaths. The camera is a bit screwy but hasn't caused me any serious grief yet, and while the AI is fucked, it's in a way that I can at least exploit for my own gain. I've never had any trouble with enemies on stairs. They always miss me if I'm below them, but I can hit them and if I'm above then they can hit me. In hallways I just use thrust attacks to get around the wall issue. The context thing I actually appreciate since I like exploring and figuring out where to go. It's refreshing after playing a lot of games that hold your hand. Granted, I'm sure there's some stuff that they could explain better but as far as having a mysterious open world goes, I appreciate it.

So yeah, game has some significant problems that can make playing a frustrating experience besides any difficulty issues being faced. Given how one mistake can cause you serious harm or death, input lag is very unfair. That being said, I'm enjoying it, though I'm not feeling all the "goty" love.

@Barrabas: I have rarely laughed so hard at a game, as I have at my many failed attempts to outsmart those two. Maybe I can creep up and get a shot from the side? Wham! off the wall to my death. maybe I can charge them? Wham off the wall to my death. Block? Wham dead. I eventually figured out a really simple way to get past them and it was immensely satisfying to get up to one of them and stab them in the butt with spear and then murder him. I left the one on the left live though, I wasn't going to get carried away and wreck that perfect moment I had just had.

If you look at the situation as a puzzle, it wasn't bad at all.

1. You should use a different weapon if you're in a corridor. I don't use my scythe when I fight in a corridor, because I know I will hit the side. Use a spear instead.

2. Never had problems with the camera in either game, so not much I can say.

3. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you're saying that it's difficult to actually have to use your brain in this game and not having everything spoon-fed to you on a silver platter, that's on you. I find it refreshing for a change.

4. I play on the PS3, so again, no comment.

I don't know, I think Dark Souls is just not your type of game, and that's okay. But with the exception of 2 and 4, those are the staples of this game. Deal with it, or don't.

@Underwhelmed: The easiest solution in my opinion was poison arrows. Shoot them three times and then just watch them die.

@Drakoji: They hit through walls mainly as a concession to the AI. If the AI was better, and was capable of adjusting its tactics for narrow spaces and allies in the way, then they would likely have the same constraints on their attacks as the player does. Not saying that it is fair, but if they couldn't do that and nothing else changed, the game would be quite easy. AI can be expensive from a resources perspective, and for better or worse, this is what the devs decided to do.

Player gets a brain, bad guys get the numbers, the strength, and the magic wall hacking weapons.

I'll give you the camera issues. I learned how to work with it back in Demon's Souls so it doesn't give me trouble anymore, but camera control should never be a thing you have to get used to.

As for the AI, I think you're lumping the term "unfair" together with "imperfect." Technically this is a fair statement, but in that respect it doesn't create anything to call Dark Souls out on specifically, since tons of games could be considered "unfair."

And the context thing: The whole exploration hook of the game is just as much about finding out where to go as it is about walking down a cool-looking corridor that you haven't seen before. It's really Zelda-like, actually. Even if where you're going isn't the current "right way," you're still finding things and making discoveries and progress. In another outlook, finding out which way *isn't* the right way is just as rewarding as finding out which way *is* the right way. This game is modelled in ways after old roguelikes, in that the lack of guidance makes your accomplishments that much higher.

As for the controls, that kinda sucks. I'm on the PS3 version and hadn't heard of those bugs. Hope it gets fixed.

Also, Dude tells you where the bells are.

nah, you're just bad at the game

There are also specific cases where enemies do not simply hack through each other.  Terrain based traps will always hit enemies, falls will always kill then.  And the undead dragon legs in Lost Izalith can and will kill each other with their attacks, making the lack of friendly fire a very deliberate thing in that light.

@Daiphyer

You don't need a guide. If ever get stuck, just check the darksouls wiki or post on a board like here, its not rocket science.

@Akeldama said:

Your argument about the lack of context amuses me. Hand holding is not Dark Souls' strong suit and I love it for that.

Well there's a big gap between overbearing hand holding and "Yo here's some environments, some enemies, some weapons and some gameplay: Go." I think Dark Souls would have done better to adopt a policy somewhere in the middle of these extremes.

And wow I never even considered how messed up the PS3's control scheme is when you directly bring it over to the 360. Attacking with RB must be kinda crap. I've only played Demons' Souls, so that wasn't a problem obviously.

@CptBedlam said:

Other than that the OP sounds like he can't handle a video game controller.

That's funny. I've finished a quite number of games on the hardest difficulty, and once was the number one BF:BC2 player in my country. I am pretty sure I can handle a controller.

@RuneseekerMireille said:

3. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you're saying that it's difficult to actually have to use your brain in this game and not having everything spoon-fed to you on a silver platter, that's on you. I find it refreshing for a change.

I don't know, I think Dark Souls is just not your type of game, and that's okay. But with the exception of 2 and 4, those are the staples of this game. Deal with it, or don't.

Maybe you didn't read the last part of my post. I said it's a fantastic game and I am really liking it; it's just little issues that are bugging me.

@Turambar said:

1. Simple problem to your wall issue: so stop using weapons with wide swinging motions in tight corridors. Also I have never had any enemy hit me through a wall or through stairs other than the ghosts of new londo that are designed to do that. 3. On context, this has nothing to do with fairness. This has everything to do with your own perceptiveness. You can for example just read the item description on said Basement Key when you are not in combat, and realize it is for something in Undead Burg, meaning walking further away for it is probably not the correct path. Further, Darkroot Garden is not a progressionless place. It has bosses that are required for progression as well as embers you need for weapon ascensions. Now whether you failed to do any of that while in the area or not is completely on your own shoulders.

The game doesn't pause, so by the time I am in a corridor getting attacked, it's too late to switch to another weapon.

I am well aware of that, and even defeated the butterfly boss, and got a cool armor from that area. It's just that after that, I was left wondering: "Now what?"

You expect your average Joe to figure out how to get back into the Asylum the second time? That area has two of the most important items, and yet the way to get there is unlike anything else that came before it.

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

There's only one problem with the game and it's none of these things

Care to explain?

@pornstorestiffi said:

3. The Souls series is not about help, or guidance, you need to figure shit out your self, like in the old days of gaming, get used to it or just stop playing it. And not to be a dick but i played Demon's Souls without a guide, cause there was no guide when i imported it, and it worked out just fine.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Demon's Souls level based? That alone, makes it much more straight forward than Dark Souls.

@Underwhelmed:

I guess... but it makes for unfair and cheap deaths...

Maybe I'm just used to video games not having this jank anymore.

@Daiphyer said:

You expect your average Joe to figure out how to get back into the Asylum the second time? That area has two of the most important items, and yet the way to get there is unlike anything else that came before it.

The items there are helpful, but not very important all.

@BulletproofMonk: The ring that lets you run in water/swamp is especially useful against the two hydra bosses, and the strange doll as far as I know is the only way to enter the painting land. I would call them important.

@BulletproofMonk said:

@Daiphyer said:

You expect your average Joe to figure out how to get back into the Asylum the second time? That area has two of the most important items, and yet the way to get there is unlike anything else that came before it.

The items there are helpful, but not very important all.

Getting back there was actually pretty straightforward. I saw the stairs and an item up there, and the devised a way of getting there. Then there was the nest which gave me a prompt, and then I had to wait for exactly so long that I thought "well that didn't do anything..." before I was picked up. It was a really wonderful discovery :D

@skurk: I wouldn't call this a straight forward path.

@Daiphyer: The hydra boss is easy even without the ring since you can block all of it's physical attacks as long as you have a shield that has 100% dmg reduction. And the painted world, while it has some good items, is optional.

@Daiphyer said:

@skurk: I would call this a straight forward path.

1. It's a completely optional area.

2. You can basically see the nest from the very place you start.

3. There are even notes on the floor in your video, presumably with hints as to how to get there.

It was seriously not very hard.

Now, figuring out how to trade with the little nest things however, THAT was not anything I'd ever figure out by myself. So it's good there are other people in the world who might share such a thing.

You know, I agee with you that the game does a bad job of telling you where you're supposed to go at times. I was confused as hell after the first bell. But, returning to the asylum was basically a secret area that led to being able to get to a more secret area. Because of that it's a really terrible example of the game giving you a bad sense of direction as to where to go.

The major gripe I've been having lately with Dark Souls is the same as OP's 4th point, the control input lag. It seems to be only when I'm frantically pressing buttons but I've also had it happen when I simply pressed square for a estus drink (yeah it happens on PS3 as well). It's really annoying when nothing happens until the worst possible time and then my guy takes a drink ><

 
The archer guy's aren't too difficult once you know where you need to go. You don't need to mess with the one on the left at all, and the one on the right you pretty much just keep blocking until he hits you and falls off. 

 

  And wow I never even considered how messed up the PS3's control scheme is when you directly bring it over to the 360. Attacking with RB must be kinda crap. I've only played Demons' Souls, so that wasn't a problem obviously.

@skurk: I wouldn't call this a straight forward path.

I stopped at Number 3 - did you talk to the NPCs? The first guy you meet tells you exactly where to go. 
 
Ok I went back and read 4 - 100% disagree, I haven't had any 'clicking' issues w/ LB on the 360.

@SteamPunkJin: This is basically what he said: "One high above, one deep below". No names.

4. It's okay if you are comfortable with holding down LB all the time, I am not. It wasn't designed to be held down all the time.

@Daiphyer: Sounds like you didn't talk to him after ringing the first bell.

@skurk: I did. He said something like this: "Wow, can't believe you did it. There is one more. You can't stop now, although I doubt you can do it"

Once I got to Blight Town, I was experienced enough to know where to go, so that didn't take me long. It was just the initial WTF moment that hit me in the first ten hours.

@Turambar: The biggest problems I had with enemies hitting through walls was in Anor Londo. I've had Silver Knights spear me through walls after I backed out of a room. The Titanite Demon is the worst offender. When they swing their staff in that large sweeping attack it's hit me through the walls in Anor Londo and around corners in the flooded basement of Sen's Fortress.

But eh..... Dark Souls. Probably just karma after cheesing the pathing for souls in the forest. Or maybe Demon's Souls told it I exploited the hell out of the Flamelurker the last time around. I feel like we're even.

I just wanna say I played Demon's Souls on PS3, and Dark Souls on the 360, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the latter's controller. In fact, it's even a little better, because the triggers are less likely to press themselves if you put the controller down, making you attack whatever NPC you were facing. I have no idea why you have trouble holding down LB, maybe your shit's broken and needs to be replaced.

As far as input lag though, yeah, shit sucks, and I seem to be getting it more often now.

Eh, he might say more if you talk to him repeatedly. I'm not sure if he does but that seems to be how you get almost everything out of NPC characters. I just ended up exploring everything until I eventually found my way to blighttown. It's pretty much in my nature to do that anyway so it wasn't that big of a deal to me. If there's a path I haven't gone down I'm going to go down it until it's clear I shouldn't be there or I can't go any further.

@Daiphyer:

Weapon Balance is broken, a Long Sword has more Potential than weapons that take 40 strength to wield.

There's no cool swords and spears are OP. The game has no balance between it's weapon selection like Demon's Souls did.

@Turambar said:

1. Simple problem to your wall issue: so stop using weapons with wide swinging motions in tight corridors. Also I have never had any enemy hit me through a wall or through stairs other than the ghosts of new londo that are designed to do that. 3. On context, this has nothing to do with fairness. This has everything to do with your own perceptiveness. You can for example just read the item description on said Basement Key when you are not in combat, and realize it is for something in Undead Burg, meaning walking further away for it is probably not the correct path. Further, Darkroot Garden is not a progressionless place. It has bosses that are required for progression as well as embers you need for weapon ascensions. Now whether you failed to do any of that while in the area or not is completely on your own shoulders.

The game doesn't pause, so by the time I am in a corridor getting attacked, it's too late to switch to another weapon.

I am well aware of that, and even defeated the butterfly boss, and got a cool armor from that area. It's just that after that, I was left wondering: "Now what?"

You expect your average Joe to figure out how to get back into the Asylum the second time? That area has two of the most important items, and yet the way to get there is unlike anything else that came before it.

2:29

3:36 for the part about the crow carrying someone away.

@Turambar: The biggest problems I had with enemies hitting through walls was in Anor Londo. I've had Silver Knights spear me through walls after I backed out of a room. The Titanite Demon is the worst offender. When they swing their staff in that large sweeping attack it's hit me through the walls in Anor Londo and around corners in the flooded basement of Sen's Fortress.

But eh..... Dark Souls. Probably just karma after cheesing the pathing for souls in the forest. Or maybe Demon's Souls told it I exploited the hell out of the Flamelurker the last time around. I feel like we're even.

@Inodril said:

The major gripe I've been having lately with Dark Souls is the same as OP's 4th point, the control input lag. It seems to be only when I'm frantically pressing buttons but I've also had it happen when I simply pressed square for a estus drink (yeah it happens on PS3 as well). It's really annoying when nothing happens until the worst possible time and then my guy takes a drink ><

I'm not sure that's entirely input lag though. It's deliberately designed to play out the entire animation of your attacks, rolls, blocks etc. before the next action that's been queued up kicks in. Otherwise you could interrupt lengthy animations like a strong attack with an estus flask, which would negate the risk of attempting an attack like that vs. waiting for the right opportunity to heal.

I guess they could have disabled the ability to queue up actions and only accepted the input when your animations over, but for whatever reason I think it's more of a deliberate design choice than a lag in the game.

@Turambar said:

@Viney212 said:

@Turambar: The biggest problems I had with enemies hitting through walls was in Anor Londo. I've had Silver Knights spear me through walls after I backed out of a room. The Titanite Demon is the worst offender. When they swing their staff in that large sweeping attack it's hit me through the walls in Anor Londo and around corners in the flooded basement of Sen's Fortress.

But eh..... Dark Souls. Probably just karma after cheesing the pathing for souls in the forest. Or maybe Demon's Souls told it I exploited the hell out of the Flamelurker the last time around. I feel like we're even.

Haven't had it happen at all with the Titanite Demons. And you can hit through the wall with a large weapon to the Silver Knights right back anyways, so it's not one-sided advantage in anyway. Not to mention the enemies can't see you through walls, so the only reason they are hitting you through walls is because you aggroed them already and know very well where they are.

I'm not trying to complain or say it's the game being unfair. Just pointing out that it's possible and does happen.

Actually.... your complaints are totally legit.

I will be the first person to say Demon's Souls is not hard it is fair. I will never say that about Dark Souls. There are parts of Dark Souls (like the anor londo archers) I put on par with Ninja Gaiden level BS. Enemies that can see you from so far away they wont even load on your screen? They can stagger you with a bow shot even if you block with a tower shield? You have to fight two of them, at the same time, on a platform so thin that if you get staggered AT ALL you will fall to instant death? That isn't fair, it isn't even hard, it is just plan cheap. Blocking an attack shouldn't be considered a "mistake" but it is in that encounter, and I think that says enough right there.

As for context.... uh there you are full of it. Read item descriptions. The basement key says pretty clearly what door it goes to if you read the item description.

Control wise unintended emotes, input lag, random frame loss, etc etc have killed me enough times I have lost count. I do play on PS3, so it is safe to say this is a problem in both games. No Demon's Souls did not have these issues other than the random rare unintended emote, and one whole spot in the game with camera issues.