@north6 said:
@notnert427: Play it on sale if nothing else. The social features are on a level of groundbreaking that the Nemesis system was in Shadow of Mordor / War - and I'd be just as surprised if other open world games don't gobble it up. I can't recommend it enough for small bits of problem solving, pick up and put down quick, rewarding scenarios, at least through chapter three, at which point it's been very quickly getting better.
I will say I very much agree with Jeff's opinion that Death Stranding doesn't really "earn" it's weirdness. MGS ostensibly is a military game, with anime bullshit layered on over the years, and it earns this. Death Stranding sort of starts with the weird. Not a very solid, or earned, foundation. The story will 100% rub probably most people the wrong way because of this. That said, I still find the setting and world super interesting, if desolate (largely probably due to budgetary limitations rather than intentional feel of isolation, if I had to guess - see the copy/paste interiors, one npc per city, etc). I about lost my mind when I saw another porter walking around.
The social stuff here is pretty neat. I like quasi-online stuff like Drivatars in Forza because it makes it feel a bit more authentic, and at this point I'm on board with any social gaming experience that's not people yelling awful things at each other. That it's structured to be an inherently positive experience is rad. That's definitely a good idea I would like to see make it into other games. As for the Nemesis system, it hasn't really been adopted in other games like I expected. I still kinda want to see that make it into a HITMAN or something similar, but I digress. It's great to see new ideas in gaming, so all credit to Kojima there.
If/when I play this, I'm going into it fully expecting the story to be somewhere between forgettable and bad. I've just never been impressed with Kojima's writing, and I can't imagine this one would be much different. Still, the desolate world and social infrastructure is the sort of thing I could be into; I'd just have to try to compartmentalize the other stuff that doesn't do it for me. I really appreciate your impressions of this, duder; they're helping me better understand the appeal of this game and potential find some ways it could appeal to me personally. Cheers.
@liquiddragon said:
@notnert427:
Kojima quote -
How does that translate to Kojima saying or thinking “I’m a genius.” Is this really what made you think he thinks he’s a genius? A talk show host asked “are you a genius?” which is an awkward question to begin with and sounds like Kojima gave a silly answer to an equally silly question. Here is how you know he gave a silly non-answer: it doesn’t even make sense!
If you read further, he ends that question with a more serious answer “I’m surrounded by talented people who inspire me, especially those from whom I learned. Tarkovsky, for example. For me, genius people are those who inspire me.”
It's shit like "you will be ashamed of your words and deeds", "everyone cries here", and the general way Kojima carries himself that speaks to his self-satisfaction. Tweets like "A HIDEO KOJIMA GAME means the declaration of me doing concept, produce, original story, script, setting, game design, casting, dealing, directing, difficulty adjustments, promoting, visual design, editing, supervising the merch" don't help, either. For fuck's sake, there was a Kojima Tracker made to count all the times he name-drops himself because it's done to a comical degree. I don't feel like suggesting that Kojima considers himself some form of genius is a bold take.
@liquiddragon said:
Reedus quote -
When an actor calls a director he’s worked with a genius, do you really take that seriously? Especially when it’s during a promotional cycle? This is a really common thing that gets thrown around by actors constantly. I’m also not sure how this relates. Is Reedus representative of the fanbase? Or you think Reedus is speaking for Kojima? Or just don’t like him calling Kojima a genius?
“The mad genius of Hideo Kojima and why Death Stranding may be the weirdest triple-A game ever made” article -
Did you read this article? Sounds like you fell for a clickbait title. It doesn’t call him a genius or suggest any such thing. It’s just speculation on Death Stranding.
“Hideo Kojima might be overhyped (but he’s still a genius)” article -
That’s a pretty grossly pro-Kojima article but again, another clickbait title. Even tho the writer is very bias, in the actual article, not a word about him being a genius.
You do know a lot of headlines are generated completely divorced from the actual article right? And that they are specifically designed to be eye-catching? Often it’s not even the author that writes them and even more often it has nothing to do with the actual article.
The shirt -
Dude, that shirt is clearly a joke shirt. You can’t possibly think that’s serious or I really hope you’re not.
Again, my point wasn’t that there aren’t ppl that call him this or that, my point was that there seems to be more ppl like you that say “his fanbase thinks he’s a genius” which is a broad inaccurate statement. You can’t even come up with good examples to prove your point. You’re pointing to bad examples and at the same time generalizing something that’s simply not true. And the kind of ppl you’re thinking of don’t constitute the fanbase. They’re the vocal minority if anything.
You took issue with one throwaway line in which I suggested that Kojima and his fans seem to think he's a genius and called it a straw man argument, so I in turn cited multiple examples of people saying exactly that. Now these examples don't count because...reasons? Yes, I understand the concept of promotion. Yes, I understand what a headline is. It's still people outright saying the thing you're claiming people don't actually say. And given the jokey shirt, the genius stuff is actually said so often that it has reached meme status, yet you're acting like I (and apparently others) just invented this baselessly.
@liquiddragon said:
TGS selfie -
I still don’t get your point on this. Yes, there are some hardcore fans. So what? Are they bad ppl doing ppl things? And do they only exist for Kojima? Leave them alone.
Again, absolutely petty.
Their behavior simply speaks to the point at hand, given that they're clearly huge fans of Kojima who very likely consider him to be something of a genius, and it's totally fine for them to feel that way. I didn't come anywhere close to suggesting they were bad people or that Kojima is the only person who has hardcore fans. These are straw man arguments.
@liquiddragon said:
Comment section -
I literally did the legwork asking 2 mods to verify your claim yet that’s not good enough. Alright man.
Where did I suggest it wasn't good enough? I acknowledged that the DS comments may well have not been "extra toxic" compared with some other comments, but also pointed out that this isn't necessarily some great endorsement of the DS/Kojima fans who showed up specifically to trash the staff for not liking the thing they like.
@liquiddragon said:
“Death Stranding...is being painted as some magnum opus by many reviews, which is what’s drawing my ire.”
Why do you care? Didn’t you say you had little investment in this? Again, you haven’t played the game but some critics thinking the game was good draws your ire? This is my problem with your post. How do you have this reaction to something you haven’t touched, said you won’t, and claims you don’t care about? You clearly care too much.
Also, you make a point about how the game clearly has issues yet some reviewers gave it high scores. Have you really never replayed games with lots of problems you really liked and would give high scores to? Pokemon Red/Blue/Green, MGS2, MGSV, Killer7, Silent Hill 2, Ico, The Last Guardian, Zelda BotW, Gravity Rush 2, RDR2, REmake2, FFX, ME2, Life is Strange, Persona 3, Wolfenstein 2, The Evil Within, Rez, Hitman 2: Silent Assassins...I mean, I could literally go for days.
It’s so easy to see issues in games and have problems with them, yet at the same time really like them and think they deserve high ratings. It’s not some conspiracy, it’s actually one of the easiest things to understand cuz the whole thing is subjective!!
I care because this is a highly notable game and it merits discussion. However, it is in my opinion a very flawed game at minimum, and many reviews/scores of it are incongruent in ways I haven't really seen before, so this thread is me wondering out loud as to why that might be case. If reviewers were saying how they loved DS in a review touting every aspect of it and then scored it a 1/10, I'd be similarly curious as to how they arrived at that conclusion.
And no, were I a reviewer, I wouldn't score games that I know have significant issues 10/10, no matter how much I personally may like said game. I believe that's a fairly selfish disservice favoring subjectivity over objectivity, and it makes the review far less helpful to an average reader. Simply saying "I like this thing" is opinions are like assholes, everyone has one territory. Saying "I like these aspects of this game and don't like these other aspects" is far more relatable. I am in no way suggesting people who like DS are wrong, lying, or whatever, but the reasoning given within many of the 10/10 reviews was lacking.
Far Cry 5, for example, is a game I consider both enjoyable and flawed. I reviewed it as such here if you're curious. It's the most fun I had with a game in 2018, but it has a dumbass story featuring some annoying characters. I absolutely had a 5/5 time with co-op shenanigans in Far Cry 5, but that didn't nullify the game's issues, so I scored it a 4/5. This is how I view flawed games. They simply shouldn't be graded as perfect if they have flaws, no matter how much someone may personally enjoy them in spite.
FWIW, I was more interested in discussing which statements of mine were offbase in reference to the game and why, not simply statements you don't like quoted without context, but okay, let's do this.
I explained why I felt this way in great detail multiple times throughout this thread. I've also said several positive things about the game and Kojima himself in this thread, but apparently those aren't worth noting.
It is fair to observe that those who wrote reviews detailing a slew of issues and scored DS 10/10 anyway are either knowingly or subconsciously pretending those issues don't exist in scoring it so highly.
@liquiddragon said:
You’re certainly making the argument I guess? Reviews often don’t age well period. Is that a huge knock against DS or do you just want to believe so?
DS has been somewhat of a zeitgeist thing, and it's certainly possible that people's excitement for its very existence crept into some review scores. MGSV had a similar thing where it reviewed very well, but a whole lot of people including those who were initially wowed by it soured on it over time once the novelty wore off. Maybe DS will have lasting appeal. Time will tell.
We've been over this. 10/10 scores inherently don't admit flaws into the equation.
@liquiddragon said:
This sounds like a completely sane, non-emotional comment. How come everything with you with Kojima has to do with genius or brilliant or whatever? Maybe he is just trying? Trying is a no-no with you? Is failing something so shameful?
I haven't purported myself to be a robot devoid of emotion, although I don't consider this a particularly emotional statement. I simply don't see the point of Kojima shoehorning in video game lingo randomly. I'm not sure how you gleaned that I find the very concept of trying unacceptable from that, but okay. However, if we're going to put the video game references to that scrutiny, Kojima's attempts to be cute or clever there do fall pretty flat for me. Maybe there's someone out there thrilled or in hysterical laughter because a video game character made an overt, fourth-wall-breaking video game reference. It just doesn't do it for me.
@liquiddragon said:
Is this something a GB member said? And now you’re confirming it as your own?
I would imagine this is a fairly common qualm people have with Kojima's insultingly unambiguous character names and generally lacking character development, but if you want to consider this some GB exclusive take that I'm plagiarizing, go ahead, I guess?
@liquiddragon said:
"Worse yet, the characters in this are pretty much just his buddies, or more accurately, people Kojima wanted to hang out with. Most of the people in this game are at least actors, but del Toro, Refn, Keighly, Conan, etc. are just random cameos there for Kojima amusement. Having to dub over several of them should have maybe been a sign, but fuck it, Kojima don’t care as long as he can fancy himself among the Hollywood crowd."
"Fuck it, Kojima don’t care as long as he can fancy himself among the Hollywood crowd." Nice, another rational, non-emotional thought.
At this point you're essentially just getting mad that I have opinions. Now, if you would care to present a counterpoint as to why it was definitely necessary and in no way Kojima enjoying his stardom to go hang out with and include in his game random celebrities that were so glaringly unqualified for their inclusion that it required hiring other voice actors to do their lines for them, then please feel free to make that case.
@liquiddragon said:
"Ironically, he lampoons the need for likes within this game while very clearly basking in fame, and this game’s setting of “America” is hilariously off-base geographically, but Kojima is clearly too busy living his IRL American dream to notice. The auteur thing at this point isn’t helping; Kojima just seems like a guy who’s fairly out of touch and doesn’t really concern himself with anything beyond what he thinks/wants."
oops, did it again.
I don't know what I'm supposedly doing again. (Britney, bitch?) I guess I'm showing emotion, since that seems to be unacceptable? Again, please feel free to address the content of what I say instead of getting mad that I said it so that we may have a discussion. Explain what part of America looks even remotely like the setting of Death Stranding. Make a case for how Kojima apparently isn't living out his Hollywood fantasies by cozying up to famous people he likes. Etc.
@liquiddragon said:
"I would have respected if it had totally played it straight and really committed to the walking sim bit. However, that requires some variance in visuals, music that goes beyond scripted moments, and immersion not being constantly broken by meter maintenance survival mechanics and off-screen characters interrupting you all the time to tell you shit you probably already know."
Another one of your borrowed thoughts.
Borrowed from whom? If you're going to accuse me of plagiarism, at least cite it. This again does not appear to be a particularly unique thought, admittedly, but that doesn't make it "borrowed". It is also entirely possible for people to independently have similar thoughts about a thing. Hell, Dan in one of the GB videos asked a "who is this game for?" question I'd raised verbatim in a thread before that video was posted, and I'm not about to suggest Dan stole that line from me, as it's a fairly logical question for anyone to ask that I'm not going to claim is solely my property.
Citation, please. This is a very general statement of which some variation is probably out there in most of the negative reviews, and I outright stated "apparently" to indicate I'm echoing the gameplay experience of others there.
@liquiddragon said:
"After hearing a bunch of generally smug “this is art” crap from Kojima himself and some early reviews and then seeing what this game actually turned out to be along with the GB staff’s experiences with it, it is a little satisfying from a standpoint of helping me feel like I’m not the only crazy person who doesn’t see the appeal of this thing."
Not crazy at all.
Wait, you're sarcastically suggesting that I am crazy if I don't see the appeal of DS? Sorry, I guess?
@liquiddragon said:
You’re disappointed at something you have zero experience with. Seems pretty off base.
At no point have I claimed to have played DS. I explicitly said I haven't multiple times so that anyone reading this thread can take my opinions with however much of a grain of salt they want. Since we're on the subject, though, have you played DS? I'm curious because your retorts to my criticisms of DS aren't referencing the game at all, meaning that either you've played it and can't find much actual fault in the critiques themselves, or you haven't played it and all the vexation over me readily admitting I haven't played it is moot.
@liquiddragon said:
I thought you said the reviews all pointed to issues and aren’t you happy, I mean disappointed that it’s a bad game?
Many of the reviews did mention issues and then totally ignored them when it came to scoring the game, very possibly because of "new Kojima game" fervor. It's one of my theories to try and explain the discrepancy between much of the review content and scores, anyway. Feel free to take it or leave it.
I'm disappointed that DS doesn't look to be the game I'd hoped for. I'm glad it seemingly is that for others. I did take some issue with what I felt were poorly-reasoned adulative scores, and therefore found it somewhat refreshing that GB didn't fall in line with that and eloquently expressed some issues with the game that I also had. I hope this clarifies my feelings on DS.
There is a reason I said that "I don't think DS is a good game" instead of declaring that it isn't, because I don't claim to have "figured it out". I may well still play it someday to be sure that it isn't for me, but it doesn't appear to be my kind of game and dropping $60 and 60 hours to find out is a big ask for me when I generally know what I like.
@liquiddragon said:
You made this up and you don’t know this. It could go either way.
Yes, that is what the word believe means. Hence, why I used it. This indeed is unknowable. What we do know is that there are a fuckton of people saying DS is fairly flawed and giving it perfect scores anyway, which is unusual and somewhat irrational. Which begs the question of why DS' flaws apparently don't count against it in the minds of many the way most games' flaws count against them. I believe Kojima's involvement is definitely a factor. You are welcome to disagree, but I would then ask for your theory as to why many reviews have been atypically willing to forgive DS for its shortcomings. For me, this has been a curiosity worth pondering about a game worth discussing.
Log in to comment