Anyone Else Ready To Go Fast? Update 1.1.4

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#1 Edited by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

Edited: On March 27th, we finally got the first major Sandbox Update. It may not hit everything, but it finally touches on a ton of the stuff that has needed massive improvements since launch. So without further ado, here are the updated exact changes. Patch Notes

Strikes

Other PvE

  • Exotic Repetition Reduction - Exotic Engram decryptions will no longer be able to be the same Exotic twice in a row.
  • Reduced interaction time with Patrol Beacons and Activity Totems from 3s to 1s.

Global Sandbox Changes

  • The base Mobility stat has been expanded and retuned. Everyone is therefor faster, and high mobility is much faster (this only effects walking/strafing speed, not sprinting speed).
  • Ground Speed cap has been increased, allowing faster total movement, no matter how you get there (again, sprint speed is unchanged).
  • Increased Acceleration so player achieve max speed almost instantly.
  • Arcstrider, Sentinel, and Striker all move faster within Super and in tandem with one another (Sprint Speed is maxed, ie you are given Lightweight, max Mobility, and Sprint Speed Exotic abilities for free).
  • Super Cooldown reduction by -25% (Base cooldown now 5:00 rather than 6:40).
  • Ability Mods have had their effectiveness increased (1.33x, 1.67x, and 2x)...
    • Launch Cooldowns are as follows: Grenades/Melees/Rift - 83s/75.5s/69s/63s (Base/1 Mod/2 Mod/3 Mod), Barricade - 38s/34.5s/31.5s/29s, and Dodge - 25s/23s/21s/19s. (Outliers are Arcbolt/Firebolt with shorter cooldowns and Stormcaller Melees with longer cooldowns).
    • 1.1.4 Cooldowns are as follows: Grenades/Melees/Rift - 83s/62s/50s/41.5s (Base/1 Mod/2 Mod/3 Mod), Barricade - 38s/28.5s/23s/19s, and Dodge - 25s/19s/15s/12.5s. (Outliers are Arcbolt/Firebolt with shorter cooldowns and Stormcaller Melees with longer cooldowns).
    • These Mod Changes are NOT replacing Mods 2.0 which has been bumped to a future update beyond 1.2.0 in May.

Hunter

  • Arcstrider Super has been improved.
    • Faster attack animations.
    • Faster dodge animations.
    • Faster animation cancel on Cast and for dodges/attacks.
    • Increased AOE range of all attacks.
  • Invisibility effectiveness has been reduced in PvP...
    • Invisibility no longer breaks Aim Assist or projectile tracking, only the initial Dodge.
    • Increased duration of invisibility on both Smoke and Dodge by 1s.

Titan

  • All Titan Shoulder Charges have been returned to normal (back to 4.5m).
  • Increased Strafe Lift top speed.
  • Increased Catapult initial horizontal acceleration and increased uptime.

Warlock

  • Glide...
    • Increased initial vertical speed from Glide.
    • Strafe Glide - Increased top speed, horizontal acceleration, and max height achievable.
    • Burst Glide - Greatly increased top speed.
    • Balanced Glide - Rebalanced this Glide to have the appropriate mix of top speed and in air maneuverability (it's halfway between both).
  • Dawnblade has been improved...
    • Reduced sword throw cost, allowing 1 more sword throw per Super.
    • Increased duration extension granted from Everlasting Fire (+20%).
    • Removed air accuracy penalties when Swift Strike is active.
    • Reduced Icarus Dash cooldown (10s to 6s).
    • Increased Heat Rises perk cooldown potential (10% to 16%).
    • Drastically increased Burst Glide speed while in Dawnblade. Example
  • Fixed Cataclysm bug on Voidwalker for Mayhem (No more infinite Nova's).

Crucible Gamemode Changes

  • Weekly Featured Crucible Playlist...
    • Iron Banner - 6v6, 12min, 125pts, Respawn 7s, All Zones Neutral, Up to 3x Guardians can cap a Zone (increasing speed with each player), and Emperor's Respite removed from playlist.
    • Mayhem - As seen above, Voidwalker Nova Bomb glitch fixed.
    • Rumble - 8 players.
  • Map repetition reduction added, prevents the same map 2x in a row.
  • Crucible Quitter Penalties - Incomplete matches in Competitive/Trials will result in a warning or temp 30 min ban from play.
  • All Modes...
    • Increased display of Kill/Assist credit from 2s to 2.5s.
    • Increased Super Energy gained from Kills/Assists
    • Players defeated with Power Ammo drop said Ammo.
      • Brick is visible to all players for 30s.
      • Brick must be picked up just like a Crate (0.25s interaction), and can be interrupted as such.
      • Players picking up ammo obtain 50% of it's contents.
      • Like a Crate, ammo is automatically loaded for players.
  • Quickplay...
    • Match length increased to 10 min.
    • Respawn decreased from 5s to 2s.
    • Super display removed from HUD.
    • Power Side Crate reduced from 90s to 60s.
    • Initial Power Crates reduced from 90s to 30s in Control, and Clash/Supremacy to 60s.
    • Control - 2x Super for player on Capture, less than before for players not on Capture when team Captures.
  • Competitive...
    • Tracker (Radar) is now turned off.
    • Survival - Reduced respawn timer to 7s, and Neutral Power Crate Spawns at 45s rather than 75s.
    • Countdown - Lowered Revive lockout from 20s to 7s, players no longer lose Revive Tokens upon death, and Power Side Crates spawn at 45s rather than 75s.
  • Power Ammo capacities have been adjusted...
    • Sword Ammo was decreased (6 swings, was 30% of ammo or up to 9 swings).
    • Rocket Launcher Ammo was decreased (1 down from 2 possible).
    • Single Shot Grenade Launchers Ammo increased (6 from 4).
    • Sniper Ammo adjusted (6, was 2 Mags capped at 6).
    • Shotgun Ammo increased (5, was 2 Mags capped at 4).
    • Slug Shotguns Ammo was increased (6, see above).
    • Fusion Rifle Ammo adjusted (5, was 4-5).
    • Linear Fusion decreased (4, was 2 mags capped at 6)
    • Prospector Ammo increased (8, was 4).
    • Tractor Cannon Ammo increased (6, was 4).
    • D.A.R.C.I. Ammo increased (8, was 6).
    • Borealis Ammo increased (8, was 6).
    • Legend of Acrius adjusted (4, was 2 mags capped at 4).

Weapon Sandbox Changes

  • Pulse Rifles are being buffed...
    • Increased PvE damage by 16%.
    • Increased Fire Rate for Adaptive (+8.3%) and High Impact Pulses (+6.3%).
    • Increased Base damage for Adaptive (+10.3%), High Impact (+12.5%), and Rapid Fire (+4.2%).
    • Increased precision multiplier for Lightweight (+6.7%).
    • Decrease precision multiplier for Adaptive (-5.8%).
  • Scout Rifles are being buffed...
    • Increased PvE damage by 15%.
    • Increased base damage for High Impact Scouts (+8.1%).
  • Hand Cannons are being buffed...
    • Increased PvE damage by 15%.
    • Increased precision multiplier for Precision Hand Cannons (+6.6%).
    • Increased Gamepad Hip Fire accuracy by 33% on PC/Console.
    • Increased Gamepad ADS accuracy by 25% on PC/Console.
  • Sidearms are being buffed...
    • Increased PvE damage by 15%.
    • Increased Hip Fire accuracy, reduced cone by 20%.
    • Increased ADS accuracy, reduced cone by 12%.
    • Increased Reserve Ammo capacity.
    • Increased Min Range (+1m).
    • Added ADS movement speed.
  • SMGs are being buffed...
    • Increased PvE damage by 10%.
    • Set Optics to 1.3x.
    • Increased Reserve Ammo capacity.
  • Linear Fusion Rifles are being buffed...
    • Increased PvE damage by 50%.
    • Increased Aim Assist.
    • Decreased Flinch Multiplier.
  • Sniper Rifles are being buffed...
    • Increased PvE damage (20% Yellow Bar Enemies, 40% Red Bar Enemies).
    • Increased Precision Multiplier, was 2.5x and now is 3.0x for lowest RoF and 3.5x for highest RoF.
    • Increased Aim Assist.
    • Increased Reserve Ammo capacity.
  • Shotguns are being buffed...
    • Increased PvE damage by 35%.
    • Increased Reserve Ammo capacity.
    • Increased Aim Assist for Suros Precision Shotguns.
  • Grenade Launchers are getting increased blast radius (Drum Fed +0.5m, 1 Shot +1.0m).
  • Precision Auto Rifles (Uriel's Gift, Prosecutor, and Origin Story) are decreasing Range (-10) and Aim Assist.
  • Mida Mini Tool is being adjusted...
    • Decrease Optics to match other SMG's.
    • Prevent the stacking of Lightweight and Mini Tools Lightweight perks.
    • Match player movement speed with Mida Multi Tool.
  • Weapon Perks are being adjusted...
    • High Impact Reserves: Increased PvE damage by 16%.
    • Kill Clip: Increased PvE damage by 15%.
    • Rampage: Increased PvE damage and duration (Bonus damage goes from 33% to 65% at 3 stacks, and duration from 3s to 3.5s).
    • Dragonfly: Increased damage and visual effects (+30% to enemies).
    • Grave Robber: Reloads 50% of mag rather than 30%.
    • Timed Payload: 55 Explosive vs 45 Direct damage, compared to mostly Direct damage before.
    • Explosive Rounds: Decreased PvE damage by -15% (but those base weapons were also increased by an additional 15%, so damage is still in parity with other Scouts).

Revised TTK's by Mercules904 on Reddit.

If you like "Hot Takes", here is a few.

First Impressions by True Vanguard (all PS4 Crucible).

First Impressions by Datto (all PC, mostly PvE).

First Impressions by Briar Rabbit and Aztecross Gaming as well.

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#2 Posted by JonRambo (39 posts) -

Hmm, I see a lot of “increased PvE damage.” Does this mean they are tuning PvE & PvP separately (I think this would be for the best).

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#3 Edited by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@jonrambo: Yes and No. They've always done this in Destiny, as D1 had a ton of instances like when they doubled Shotgun effectiveness between House of Wolves and The Taken King. During that time Shotgun rushing bosses was actually a ton of fun, but they then toned it down for The Taken King (I think they toned it down with a 35% PvE nerf, though I'm way too lazy to look for those old patch notes from 3 years ago). More often though PvP changes have negatively effected PvE, which is what we saw in drastic fashion with the changes between D1 and D2. In that instance though, those PvP changes were also hated by the PvP community as well which resulted in what we have now. Conversely these changes appear to effect both in rather meaningful and significant ways. Giving PvP the two nips it needed, while bolstering it in all the places it desperately needs it, and simultaneously throwing a fresh coat of paint on PvE in the form of changing the Primary and Power Meta's due to the buffs to both archetypes and perks. Firefly and Explosive Payload will see a surge in usage later this month for PvE and so will Sniper Rifles and Linear Fusion Rifles with such huge buffs.

While I'm not sure this is enough, I love that they have basically thrown their hands up in the air and said OK to the community and finally started embracing the changes we want rather than running out with stupid usage charts like they use to for justifying either buffs or nerfs nobody was asking for or wanted. This is nothing but a good sign for what is to come if they continue down this path for the future.

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#4 Posted by JonRambo (39 posts) -

Yea it seems like they’re making good changes. Hopefully they’re making steady improvements while going towards a big content update. I think they can get theee, but I am disappointed that so far D2 has followed in D1’s footsteps. Release, everyone falls off, disappointing first DLC. Hopkefully it improves (like D1 did significantly with TTK). But it sucks we have this same period of meh and waiting for improvements.

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#5 Edited by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -
No Caption Provided

I like to make these post's just in case some of the people around here don't visit DTG or Bungie.net like I know a few of us do. Here are the plans going forward as it currently stands.

  • DLC 2: Leaks today suggest the name has changed from Gods of Mars to The Fallen Warmind and will release on May 8th, which coincidentally lines up perfectly with when both Season 3 and 1.2.0 would launch. True or not, Christopher Barrett has already confirmed that DLC 2 will launch alongside Season 3 in May with 1.2.0, and with May 8th being the 2nd Tuesday in May, it's actually the most likely day for that to happen already.
  • Both Mods 2.0 and the weekly 2v2 Crucible Playlist will also drop at a date after May. Outside of listed changes, I think those two things are their highest priorities.
  • There are other things they have mentioned as working on for or before the Fall update, here those are...
    • Item Collections and Records.
    • Weapon Slot and Archetype Improvements (the community assumes this means a return to Kinetic/Special/Heavy slots).
    • Better Clan Rewards.
    • Trials of the Nine improvements.
    • Shaders and dismantling.
    • Guided Game's future.
    • Address Solo vs. Fireteam Matchmaking.

So they have a lot on their plate to accomplish over the next two months, then they hit up E3 to show us everything they have in store for the big Fall expansion, but keep in mind we will also be seeing one more big patch before then, that will likely have a lot of those "before Fall update" changes and tweaks again to a lot of these same changes based on feedback to prepare the way for the Fall update around July for Season 4.

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#6 Posted by nutter (1990 posts) -

Nope. No reason to return here.

Goddamn, Bungie...Goddamn...

Online
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#7 Posted by pyrodactyl (4221 posts) -

No changes to time to kill, minimal tweaking of ability cooldowns, this sounds like classic Bungie. They're trying so hard to preserve their core vision for D2 PvP even though it's bad and almost everyone hates it. Maybe they learn their lesson by September but I wonder how many people will still care at that point.

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#8 Posted by cliffordbanes (123 posts) -

No, they still need more content. Did they ever fix their content creation pipeline or is it still as fucked up as during Destiny 1?

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#9 Edited by pyrodactyl (4221 posts) -

@cliffordbanes: no indication it isn't fucked so it probably still is. Sounds like they're stuck with a backward ass garbage engine infrastructure built based on irrelevant use cases and PS3 support. The core of their engine is fucked because of early decisions made years ago and no amount of duck tape can save them at this point.

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#10 Edited by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@pyrodactyl: Based on answered questions on Twitter, these changes mean TTK is being effected, but probably not as much as some of us would like. Basically they are bringing all primary weapons down to the TTK of Auto Rifles Precision TTK, which is roughly 1.1s rather than the current 1.2-1.3s across the board currently. More frequent Power Ammo drops are going to be the biggest boon to reductions in TTK though, as all of those are OHK weapons, though many are worried that the current big dog on Console, The Colony, will run rampant. Bungie claimed yesterday on Twitter that wasn't what they have seen in playtests due to all of the mobility changes so they actually aren't touching The Colony in current plans. Snipers Aim Assist will be a huge determining factor in how those play, as currently it's awful and extremely hard play aggressively with a Sniper like in D1, so I hope the added AA puts those back to D1 levels. Shotguns will be huge in Trials and Competitive in general with the changes to Radar, and Fusion Rifles with continue to be a strong contender for mid range. Also, according to Tweets by Bungie, it does appear that Rocket usage has gone down in playtest significantly due to the change to only 1 Rocket (something I've been begging for since launch and before, as I distinctly remember saying they would be too strong with 2 Rounds in the beta). As far as the Mods go, we don't know hard figures, but some sleuths on Reddit have ran the numbers as well (even though they are arguing about the details and the real authorities on this like Kyt_Kutcha hasn't said anything) and came up a bit different from where I was, and apparently there are some Subclasses that can actually stack 3 Mods rather than just 2, and I don't think I knew that. So we are likely looking a 2 Mods cooldowns to around 55s for Grenades, Melee's, and Rift, Barricade to 25s, and Dodge to 16.5s. Those Grenade Cooldowns with 3 Mods would go to 43s though, which is down from the current 63s. So a 20s reduction for 3 Mods is actually a pretty big change, and puts Grenades in a better spot, though I wish they would do away with the ability to even have a 3 stack and balance the times around those times (in other words move to the base to this 1 Mod, 1 Mod to 2 Mod, and 2 Mod to 3 Mod). Because 43s for stacking 2 Mods actually sounds really good to me. Hopefully Mods 2.0 gets us there when it drops after May.

All in all this is actually a rather drastic change to the feel of Destiny 2's Crucible, just watch that snippet of how fast that Gunslinger is moving around the map. That looks amazing. That's how D1 looked, that speed and veracity. Especially knowing Titans and Warlocks are getting more movement speed on jumps than this, with Shoulder Charge returned to normal and Icarus Dash reduction actually making Dawnblade more viable. All we need now is to hear Bones of Eao are returning for Hunters with the new DLC and I will be thrilled about the movement speeds. And I can't even begin to describe how excited I am about the potential of Hand Cannon improved ADS accuracy. They are butts right now because they don't hit what you aim at. I love Hand Cannons in Destiny, and I will be extremely excited to put them back in my loadout. Due to already implemented Raid Perk changes, Raids are as much fun as they've ever been, so these PvE changes have me excited to return to the Raid Lair as well, especially since a new one will drop for the DLC in May. All of these are good changes, and by May, Destiny 2 really will be a rather unrecognizable game from where it was even in December for Curse of Osiris. I just hope they used this extra time they spent on the new DLC (which was pushed back 2 months already) to make it a lot more significant than Curse of Osiris was. I'm excited to play PvP at the end of this month, but this update really gets me excited for how the game will function once people come back (if they do) for DLC 2 in May.

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#11 Edited by pyrodactyl (4221 posts) -

@hestilllives19: you're talking the the invective guy. I hate ammo crates. I hate having to play around controlling special ammo. It is the worst.

As for mobility changes, I don't care. Without faster time to kill its going to enable even more running away from losing engagements. How are you ever going to be able to take down someone by yourself with your primary if they can run away even faster than they could before?

These changes sound positively terrible to me and I don't see them breathing new life into the crucible. Maybe people will come back for a month and a few weeks for the DLC but if that's their play for PvP I guarantee Destiny is going to be even more of a deserted wasteland than it is now over the summer. Everyone will just realize that the best way to play is still to clump up because grenades are rare, people are fast and take forever to kill. At which point they're going to lose interest because clumping up is boring. Faster movement is great news for top tier players and streamers but for regular people it's the worst of both worlds.

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#12 Posted by TheHT (15815 posts) -

Ooh, move faster you say? And hand cannon buffs? Maybe I'll run around a bit in Destiny next week, shoot some aliens and such.

Stiiiiiiiiiill probably won't pick up the DLC though. Destiny 2 man. Was enough like the first one where I finished playing it (three times) and was left feeling like I'd just played through another Destiny 1 expansion and I'm good now thanks. But I like going fast and shooting stuff in the head with hand cannons, so maybe it'll be sufficiently more fun to keep me playing.

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#13 Posted by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@pyrodactyl: From that perspective there honestly isn't anything possible for them to do right now to fix Destiny 2 though. They are working on Weapon Slot changes for the Fall, and while I kind of agree I'd prefer the D1 system of Kinetic/Special/Heavy back, that isn't really a possible goal for right now. As far as TTK goes, moving down to 1.1s is a step in the right direction, even if I do agree with you that they need to take more drastic measures and go back to D1 TTK's of around 0.9s. As seen in the image below that I posted about where I'd like to ultimately see TTK.

No Caption Provided

But keep in mind D2 plays with Range a lot more than D1 ever did due to the way the 2 Primary game works. With the buffs to Sidearms and SMG's, they are clearly trying to push 1 of those in each person's loadout at all times for PvP, even though that is already how it works in practice, and Sidearms already have a TTK of 0.8s with SMG's at 0.9s, they just have very short ranges to match. With Hand Cannons getting accuracy buffs, I don't think we will have as big of an issue with disengagements as before, though that is actually still my biggest fear, but short of a big 30%ish buff, you won't see TTK changes made without changes to Fire Rates like they are doing to Pulses. Bungie basically added a full bullet to kill for all guns across the board for D2, so to return to D1 TTK's, that's what we would need across the board. I'm excited to see how this will play in practice.

As far as player retention goes, it honestly can't get much worse than now, as we are seeing the lowest participation numbers in Destiny's history right now, with under 300k players logging in yesterday, and only 55.8k (5k of which were PC players who likely didn't play D1 at all) players in Trials last weekend. This will bring people back, but it's a question of are these changes coming too late at this point. A lot of the Destiny fanbase is has gone beyond the point of being upset, we are just apathetic to it at this point, which is sooo much worse. Especially with the rise of so many other games grabbing players attention like Monster Hunter: World, Fortnite, PUBG, the announcement yesterday of The Division 2 (who have done nothing but great things to The Division over the past year or so), and the launch of Anthem in early 2019, Bungie is in the worst situation of their lifespan. As a Destiny fan I'm really hoping players come back, but as a gamer, I'm more curious than anything how this will play out over the next 6-7 months.

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#14 Posted by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@theht: Just an FYI, this drops two weeks from next Tuesday, not next week. They just announced the specifics a bit early. They said they will continue to talk about how this is going to work for the next couple weeks before deployment too.

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#15 Edited by TheHT (15815 posts) -
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#16 Posted by PenguinDust (13086 posts) -

I don't care much for the Crucible, and I tend to roll with an auto rifle, so I don't see many reasons for me to return with this update. Maybe in May when Season 3 comes around.

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#17 Posted by devise22 (721 posts) -

@hestilllives19: I think that might be the point your missing. Yes from that perspective their is no way to fix Destiny 2. That is the actual issue. They can fine tune everything they want, they can come up with as many faction style events, but people weren't checking out on the entire basis that D2 didn't "feel" like D1. It was that the content pipeline was structured identically.

Base game is a "sort of" shooter campaign that sacrifices in quality PVE and PVP because the game doesn't know if it's an MMO or a Open World Loot Shooter. Then on top of your monthly events system that Blizzard has perfected, they also roll out occasional DLC that is just more maps and more irrelevant content.

I played like 100+ Hours of Destiny 1. I leveled up 3 characters all the way to max light when D2 launched, and then I just uninstalled it. I just had zero reason to come back. I want more stuff. More unique weapons, more sub classes, more open world scenarios, more new encounter designs. I want Raid style encounters that aren't stupidly lock gated behind needing a bunch of real life friends to communicate with to have any fun with them.

Part of the issue to this day is that Bungie keeps saying they have this vision but it slowly became clear they didn't. The vision was "MMO games are cool, we make shooters, what about a shooter MMO?" That's it. The actual ideas of how to properly implement systems or cross over aspects of those genres have never been fully thought out. It's why Destiny even D1 has always felt like this half baked idea, one that doesn't go far enough in either direction for any fans of either genre. MMO fans want more MMO stuff, more end game etc. And shooter fans want more, things to engage with. New enemy types, new weapon types, new abilities, new maps, how about something that is actual open world for a change too? Like Borderlands is a shooter that came out last generation and is more open than either Destiny. Again they had to sacrifice so much because they really don't know what they want to make.

I have to echo @pyrodactyl here. All this stuffs sounds like these changes all seem positive, but still terrible. Positive because they fix issues the people left still playing D2 have, but terrible because this does nothing to bridge the community that left the game. And Bungie really should be asking themselves how players like me, players who were omega hyped for this franchise who put countless hours into D1 and D2 and then just instantly dropped off, have zero will to come back to this thing. Like I am kind of still dumbfounded that following D1 we still had the same bullshit Tower, and hub space areas with ship loading screens. Like they just changed so little for this sequel that "fixing" what there is isn't enough anymore. Not when unlike when D1 came out we have countless other games that are all good to play.

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#18 Posted by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

After seeing a few Tweets from Bungie, Ability Mods look like they are getting the more optimistic buff than I originally thought. Their talk about 1 Mod being 1.33x means that 83s cooldown on Grenades goes down to 62s. 2 Mods jumps down to 50s at 1.67x, and 3 Mods to 41.5s at 2x. I will update the original post to reflect this.

See here and here.

@devise22: I think we are talking about two very different Destiny audiences though. As far as the Content Pipeline stuff goes, I don't think there is a developer that exists that can put out the amount and quality of content a part of the Destiny community craves. They want a Taken King Expansion every 3 months, and that will never happen. D2's cadence of content has actually been rather good, and that cadence is said to continue next year, unlike with Destiny 1 who after Y1 only put out The Taken King and Rise of Iron in Y2 and Y3 respectively with a few live events thrown in. Destiny 2's problem is Curse of Osiris fell rather flat, as they failed to really deliver the type of "Infinite Forest" they promised. For all intents and purpose though, Eater of Worlds was fantastic, and going forward Raid Lairs will be a great addition to the series for each minor DLC. The actual event of The Dawning was pretty great, but it suffered from being too reliant on Microtransactions. Then Crimson Days launched and fixed how they do Microtransactions in Live Events and is supposedly going to be the idea going forward. Add to that the minor changes 6v6 Iron Banner brings, the massive rework to Nightfalls with Strike Scoring and soon Heroic Strikes, hopefully the next not completely busted Faction Rallies due to Bungie's Fear of Coin Cheesing, and there is actually a lot going on in Destiny, more so than ever before. The biggest question mark is going to be if they improved things for the next minor DLC when "The Fallen Warmind" launches in May. That's anybody's guess at this point. The players who aren't satisfied with that amount of content will honestly leave the game no matter what after every major DLC, and there is nothing Bungie can do about that.

Destiny 2's biggest issue is that other group of players. That more dedicated group who they have now ran off. Those 1.5-2 million players (of which less than 300k are left) who stayed no matter how long ago content dropped because they enjoyed the Sandbox and finding cool and unique Legendaries. For those players, Destiny 2 has been a massive disappointment. Loot is rather boring and lifeless, the Sandbox has been boring without hero moments and just slow Primary Teamshot fights down corridors and zero ability to use any other playstyles since September in either PvP or PvE, classes are watered down and boring... I think you see where I'm going, Destiny 2 is boring. One of the best things about this update is that for this group of players, this update should liven up the Sandbox a bit. I'm not saying it's perfect, or fixes everything, but it's a good first step. They've slightly tackled boring loot with Masterwork Weapons and Armor, but even that system is boring once you Masterwork several Weapons (Armor changes are kind of terrible). One of the best changes has been Raid Armor Perks, which drastically boosted Class Power within the Raids. But I still think Mods 2.0 needs to address and add more Perk options to Guns and Armor to add more variety to the Sandbox as well, and Armor needs to be more than just Cosmetics slotted with Mods. The bottom line here though is this, this is the group of players who left Destiny that Bungie needs back desperately. They are the players who love the franchise, will play it like a hobby if allowed, and bring their friends on board. Those players are almost entirely gone, as well as the full time Twitch and YouTube streamers. Bungie needs to focus on bringing these players back and others will follow. If they don't, the Destiny franchise is dead. But this is a good first real attempt at bringing those players back, with more to come in May.

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#19 Posted by LiquidPrince (17073 posts) -

As someone who had an insane number of hours in D1 and a much more reasonable amount of hours in D2 ( still hundreds of hours though...) these are the changes I've been waiting for. I live for Crucible!

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#20 Edited by JonRambo (39 posts) -

@liquidprince: Same here. I like the raids and stuff, but crucible is what keeps me playing. Despite its problems, I love the feel. Beats out Halo 5 and the CoD games for me.

What system do you guys play on?

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#21 Posted by VeggiesBro (220 posts) -

While they are making changes, those changes don't seem right to me, or certainly not enough to make me interested in coming back. All increasing power ammo availability does in my mind is give the better team a clear advantage particularly if they can control the spawns (a likely scenario given primaries are terrible compared to possible OHK weapons). Bungie needs to remove the two dudes in charge of the sandbox because they have done nothing but make it worse time and again especially if you consider HoW to be the peak of crucible (like I do).

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#22 Edited by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@veggiesbro: I completely agree with the sentiment of House of Wolves being the Golden Age of Destiny PvP. Though it's hard for me to not say that it has nothing to do with that being when I actually got into PvP and Trials with you, Exile, Pyro, and Brandon. It's weird too, because HoW represents the most static PvP rolls were between Thorn, Hawkmoorn, and Last Word being very strong and weapon rerolling, but in practice it didn't feel that bad. I think the big difference between D1 HoW rerolling and D2 Static Rolls is how those Rerolled Weapons were amazing, and our current static rolls are all kind of terrible, just equally terrible across the board. I really hope Mods 2.0 does something to address that for Armor and Weapons, because everything feels like a wet noodle in comparison to D1, especially after 3 years of amassing crazy powerful rolls. I also hope we see a big change in Subclasses in the Fall, as I know a lot of us really hate the hand holding Bungie did in comparison to D1, and want our customization options back, rather than static perk tree's.

I'm very interested to see how the more Power Ammo works, whether its just faster spawns, or if like in Mayhem there are also more locations available. I'd prefer seeing 3 spots available every 45 seconds or so, which forces players to push to those locations, and breaks players away from each other more often. If it's just 2 spots on 30 sec timers, I don't think that helps. I of the option that Power Ammo should just become what Special Weapons were in D1 if possible, so let more players have access to it at any given moment. Shotgunning somebody who is defenseless isn't fun, and the same goes for other Power Weapons. What is fun is outplaying 3 players in a row who you know have the same means to kill you as you do them. That's exciting gameplay, and that's what made D1 so special when it was good. And that's the kind of dynamic gameplay that drew players to Mayhem when it was up during The Dawning.

Note: It's very hard to tell exactly where Spawns are for actual Heavy Ammo during the footage they showed due to bricks dropping like Crates, but we only see 1 player load Shotgun and it appears there is another spawn opposite B Control Point. We do know he killed 3 opposing players in a 40 second window who had Power Ammo, but it looks like 1 of those players may have picked up Power from a killed player on Blue Team (reef-lab03). With only 1 seen Power Ammo pickup, 3 players on the other team, 1 player on Blue Team, and actual player having Power Ammo plus obtaining 2 pickups in only a 40 sec window does make it seem rather plentiful.

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#23 Posted by DeanoXD (776 posts) -

They can make all the changes to weapon balance and item drops they want it doesn't take away from the fact there is really nothing to do in D2. Bungie learned nothing from D1, and i suspect it will be year 3 of D2 when they finally have enough content to make playing worth it. Which will be right up along side them announcing D3 and asking us to pay for it all over again.

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#24 Posted by deckard (351 posts) -

@deanoxd said:

They can make all the changes to weapon balance and item drops they want it doesn't take away from the fact there is really nothing to do in D2. Bungie learned nothing from D1, and i suspect it will be year 3 of D2 when they finally have enough content to make playing worth it. Which will be right up along side them announcing D3 and asking us to pay for it all over again.

Totally agree - the only two bullet points I'm looking for are "more locations to explore" and "more stuff to do."

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#25 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (7830 posts) -

As someone who still plays relatively regularly, I'm excited for this stuff! Hopefully, pulse rifles will actually be worth using now. Also, maybe the Mobility stat won't be a complete joke that people have to work around.

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#26 Posted by Fredddi43 (495 posts) -

No, not returning until new content. What use are sandbox changes if there's nothing to do in said sandbox? D2 has been such a massive disappointment, I'm still surprised it didnt win that category in GOTY last year, I know it did in my book.

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#27 Posted by DeanoXD (776 posts) -

@deckard: To add to that, Mars was large multi area planet in D1 in D2 its part of the first expansion and its a very small area that has one public event that spawns very slowly, why? how did this happen? You can't even pull out your sparrow on mars because they knew its was so small or they were just be dicks to us. Why isn't theredaily and weekly bounties any more? I don't think the planet specific challenges are the same or as good. The infinite forest is super boring, in strikes we all just run to the end as fast as we can. And just for some context i have all three classes on PC at max level. I really thought D2 was going to be so good at the start but now i just use to play when i want to watch a quick look or listen to podcasts.

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#28 Edited by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

While almost everything in this update is great, I am very disappointed to see no love for Sentinel. It's not a very good subclass at the moment in PvE. Bad grenades, no utility outside of its melee. And what you could accurately call a completely wasted perk in Ward of Dawn. Dawnblade, Golden Gun and Sentinel needed some love and only Dawnblade got it. Excited for Dawnblade though as I prefer it in PvP.

As far as your question on pulses go, ss someone who uses a Rapid Fire Pulse in PvP, they are getting buffed because they suck. They lose against any and all weapons in all categories if you miss a burst as precision damage. Auto's are only getting a range nerf, which likely means they will still be as effective at range as Pulses. From which I can tell you Auto's best Pulses 10 out of 10 times because they reward unskillful aim where Pulses don't and nobody hits constant precision hits all the time.

It could be different on PC, but I couldn't care less. I don't want unique PC meta to bleed balance into console versions of the game. So this is a good change and nothing else.

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#29 Posted by TheManWithNoPlan (7830 posts) -
@deanoxd said:

@deckard: To add to that, Mars was large multi area planet in D1 in D2 its part of the first expansion and its a very small area that has one public event that spawns very slowly, why? how did this happen? You can't even pull out your sparrow on mars because they knew its was so small or they were just be dicks to us. Why isn't theredaily and weekly bounties any more? I don't think the planet specific challenges are the same or as good. The infinite forest is super boring, in strikes we all just run to the end as fast as we can. And just for some context i have all three classes on PC at max level. I really thought D2 was going to be so good at the start but now i just use to play when i want to watch a quick look or listen to podcasts.

I believe you mean Mercury. Mars is not currently in Destiny 2 as a playable location. (Though, given the title "Gods of Mars", I imagine it will be in May when dlc2 comes out). And yeah, I agree Mercury is too small. I wish they had a bit more space to explore there and another public event or two. I think they assumed the Infinite forest would make up for it, but unfortunately it did not.

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#30 Posted by pyrodactyl (4221 posts) -

@deanoxd said:

@deckard: To add to that, Mars was large multi area planet in D1 in D2 its part of the first expansion and its a very small area that has one public event that spawns very slowly, why? how did this happen? You can't even pull out your sparrow on mars because they knew its was so small or they were just be dicks to us. Why isn't theredaily and weekly bounties any more? I don't think the planet specific challenges are the same or as good. The infinite forest is super boring, in strikes we all just run to the end as fast as we can. And just for some context i have all three classes on PC at max level. I really thought D2 was going to be so good at the start but now i just use to play when i want to watch a quick look or listen to podcasts.

I believe you mean Mercury. Mars is not currently in Destiny 2 as a playable location. (Though, given the title "Gods of Mars", I imagine it will be in May when dlc2 comes out). And yeah, I agree Mercury is too small. I wish they had a bit more space to explore there and another public event or two. I think they assumed the Infinite forest would make up for it, but unfortunately it did not.

It seems silly to me to ask for a larger play space. It's not like they did anything exciting with the larger zones in Vanilla Destiny 2. They're mostly just very pretty empty spaces where you do the same 3 public events over and over again.

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#31 Posted by DeanoXD (776 posts) -
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#32 Posted by DeanoXD (776 posts) -

@pyrodactyl: In my mind i see the bungie Dev team sitting around and talking with each other about how great lost sectors and those other planet side missions will be and how with public events there will be so much to do, because for the life of me i can't think of another good reason as to why they exist. Their excuse last time was making content around old gen and new gen was why things were so slow to come out, that it really slowed down their dev schedule, so they shot D1 in the back of the head and moved and now it seems from my point of view they are in the same boat, they are so busy doing weapon balancing they don't have time to make new content.

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#33 Posted by Do_The_Manta_Ray (1633 posts) -

Wait, is there still no second Raid?

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#34 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (7830 posts) -
@pyrodactyl said:
@themanwithnoplan said:
@deanoxd said:

@deckard: To add to that, Mars was large multi area planet in D1 in D2 its part of the first expansion and its a very small area that has one public event that spawns very slowly, why? how did this happen? You can't even pull out your sparrow on mars because they knew its was so small or they were just be dicks to us. Why isn't theredaily and weekly bounties any more? I don't think the planet specific challenges are the same or as good. The infinite forest is super boring, in strikes we all just run to the end as fast as we can. And just for some context i have all three classes on PC at max level. I really thought D2 was going to be so good at the start but now i just use to play when i want to watch a quick look or listen to podcasts.

I believe you mean Mercury. Mars is not currently in Destiny 2 as a playable location. (Though, given the title "Gods of Mars", I imagine it will be in May when dlc2 comes out). And yeah, I agree Mercury is too small. I wish they had a bit more space to explore there and another public event or two. I think they assumed the Infinite forest would make up for it, but unfortunately it did not.

It seems silly to me to ask for a larger play space. It's not like they did anything exciting with the larger zones in Vanilla Destiny 2. They're mostly just very pretty empty spaces where you do the same 3 public events over and over again.

It's not silly in the sense you can chain public events on every other planet so there's no downtime, whereas on Mercury there is only 1 and you have to wait before there is another. You make a good point in that more space, but no content is worthless, but I was speaking in the context of I wish they would have made a large enough space where multiple public events could exist. I personally don't have much reason to do them now, but when Curse of Osiris released that one public event was a good way to get tokens. So, compared to when a faction rally happens and I'm farming for tokens and I can just ride my sparrow or fast travel to another one without waiting, it was slightly disappointing.

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#35 Posted by TheManWithNoPlan (7830 posts) -

Wait, is there still no second Raid?

Curse of Osiris included a smaller raid called a Raid Lair. And by smaller I really mean shorter. Eater of Worlds takes about half the time to finish compared to Leviathan if you know what you're doing in both. The next dlc "Gods of Mars" will include another raid lair too; which is expected to be similar in scope to EOW. The dlc after that will more Taken King sized; which should include another full raid.

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#36 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@deanoxd said:

@pyrodactyl: In my mind i see the bungie Dev team sitting around and talking with each other about how great lost sectors and those other planet side missions will be and how with public events there will be so much to do, because for the life of me i can't think of another good reason as to why they exist. Their excuse last time was making content around old gen and new gen was why things were so slow to come out, that it really slowed down their dev schedule, so they shot D1 in the back of the head and moved and now it seems from my point of view they are in the same boat, they are so busy doing weapon balancing they don't have time to make new content.

They made Destiny 2 in about 12 months. What exactly issues they ran into is unknown, but the direction the game should take seems like a logical one.

As to what they are doing with their time at the moment; they are not committed to fix Destiny 2 as they shipped it. This is a simple fact you can conclude based on how they are using their 700 employees. They are currently working on Destiny 3 and on the yearly large Destiny expansion. This is where most of their resources are. A smaller amount of resources oversees Gods of Mars, the second smaller DLC and the current updates we are getting. That would be Masterworks, Nightfall specific rewards and all that jazz.

If Bungie was committed to fixing Destiny 2 as they gave it to us, we would already be playing something great. But they are focused on the future and selling us more stuff. It will likely be great from September onward. Or at least close to it.

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#37 Posted by pyrodactyl (4221 posts) -

@zevvion said:
@deanoxd said:

@pyrodactyl: In my mind i see the bungie Dev team sitting around and talking with each other about how great lost sectors and those other planet side missions will be and how with public events there will be so much to do, because for the life of me i can't think of another good reason as to why they exist. Their excuse last time was making content around old gen and new gen was why things were so slow to come out, that it really slowed down their dev schedule, so they shot D1 in the back of the head and moved and now it seems from my point of view they are in the same boat, they are so busy doing weapon balancing they don't have time to make new content.

They made Destiny 2 in about 12 months. What exactly issues they ran into is unknown, but the direction the game should take seems like a logical one.

As to what they are doing with their time at the moment; they are not committed to fix Destiny 2 as they shipped it. This is a simple fact you can conclude based on how they are using their 700 employees. They are currently working on Destiny 3 and on the yearly large Destiny expansion. This is where most of their resources are. A smaller amount of resources oversees Gods of Mars, the second smaller DLC and the current updates we are getting. That would be Masterworks, Nightfall specific rewards and all that jazz.

If Bungie was committed to fixing Destiny 2 as they gave it to us, we would already be playing something great. But they are focused on the future and selling us more stuff. It will likely be great from September onward. Or at least close to it.

Honestly I don't expect anything great until Destiny 3. It's hard to imagine the fall expansion being anything revolutionary. Maybe it'll be what Destiny 2 should've been in the first place but between their stubbornness that makes them stick to their trash Destiny 2 PvP design and the fact that they'll have less than one year to incorporate Destiny 2 feedback, I'm confident this thing is going to be too little too late. They have so much work to do and so little time, it's kind of crazy. They have to unfuck PvP. They have to make AT LEAST one new type of repeatable PvE activity on par with the Nighfall and Raid in scope. None of that Archon's forge/court of oryx/prison of elders trash. This thing is called Destiny 2, why are we doing the exact same activities as Destiny 1 (Nightfall, public event, raid)? They have to bring meaningful upgrades and improvements to subclasses. Destiny vets have been playing these subclasses for years now. They aren't exciting anymore especially since some of them feel weaker than they ever did. Hunter dodge and titan wall are garbage, they need buffs or replacements.

Those are huge changes put on top of the base requirement for the expansion: making a campaign no one gives a fuck about, new public zone, new public events, new raid, new PvP maps and new strikes. In 12 months. Yeah, that's not going to happen.

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#38 Edited by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@deanoxd: I don't necessarily think lack of content has been Destiny 2's problem. It's more the layout of that content, the fact that it's impossible/unnecessary to replay most of it, existing content has no real variation like D1 had, rewards are arbitrary and don't line up with activities very well (Token System), and the gameplay is boring in comparison to D1 since Bungie neutered players combat prowess in every way. It also didn't help help that the Infinite Forest for Curse of Osiris turned out to be nothing more than procedurally generated annoying enemy concoctions that players mostly just run past 95% of the time. So, at least in my opinion, most of Destiny 2's issues are systemic in nature, and thus require updates from the Live Team to fix.

As far as Bungie wasting time with updates rather than putting out new content, that's partly true and also not. Bungie did push back DLC 2 by 2 months (it was originally suppose to launch this month) to address the feedback from players, to make sure DLC 2 launched with the features they had been promising, many since before launch (Private Matches, Ranked PvP, etc), and to supposedly make it a more worthwhile experience than Curse of Osiris was (most likely a reaction to how poorly CoO was received rather than any other reason). But the Live Team, headed by Christopher Barrett, who is making all of the changes to the game isn't the same group of developers that make Content, as their entire job is managing Destiny as a Live experience. Bungie has around 750 employee's, and two entire other studios (Vicarious Visions and High Moon) that work on Destiny. Vicarious Visions primarily handle the PC version of Destiny. It's suspected High Moon was in charge of Curse of Osiris under the supervision of some Bungie employee's. It is very likely High Moon and another group of Bungie employee's are working on DLC 2 currently, all while the main Bungie Dev team under Luke Smith are split, working mostly on the Fall Update and with another smaller team working on Destiny 3 for 2019. So any and all updates made by the Live Team should have no bearing on Content launches. Destiny is a kind of weird franchise, because the Live Team have arguably a far more important role than even the Dev Team. It was this Team, throughout Destiny 1, that made vast improvements on a constant basis that slowly molded Destiny 1 into the truly great game it became. It's truly sad (and a bit inexcusable) that Destiny 2 was handed to them in the shambles it was. But at this point, there is no changing that. I just hope that with updates like 1.1.4 Bungie can continue to revitalize the game, and rebuild the trust they have now lost with the Destiny Community at large. And make no mistake about it, this update is targeted directly at fixing the boring Sandbox and bringing back a once flourishing PvP community.

Note: Like ManWithNoPlan said Mercury was just The Lighthouse and a PvP Map (only used in 1 D1 Story Mission) in D1, so by that frame of reference it is much larger than before, but I also agree that it was a bit disappointing. Though the space is a lot larger than many give it credit for if you look at the locations through the Adventures, Heroic Adventures, and a couple of the Weapon Workshop Missions (these missions themselves being another major misstep IMO for CoO, as they required far too much of a meaningless grind). Also like ManWithNoPlan said, DLC 2 in May is rumored to be including Mars as a destination. My assumption is that, like several of the PvP maps that have returned, they will reuse Mars from D1 with some tweaks here and there (like adding Lost Sectors and Adventures in locations that make sense).

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#39 Posted by DeanoXD (776 posts) -

@hestilllives19: @pyrodactyl: You both make excellent points, and i agree there are a lot of factors and variables that the dev teams have to contend with, i am just very hopeful that they can pull it off.

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#40 Posted by LiquidPrince (17073 posts) -
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#41 Posted by devise22 (721 posts) -

@hestilllives19: I think the lack of content problem wouldn't actually be considered one if so much of D2 wasn't just more D1. It was said at launch but how many of the enemies in D2 are just the same enemies from D1? I appreciated they threw in some mechanical differences with certain enemies. But the structure and design philosophy of D1 and D2 has always just been whack, and they don't care to address it.

You talk a lot about the extra gindy content you can do, but at the end of the day all that content is just reusing all the same zones that exist. All the same enemy factions that exist. It's all just flavors on the thing you do in all of Destiny. And I get it, it's a shooter you do a lot of the same stuff, and it's a pseudo MMO they are grindy. But as I said in an above post, it doesn't matter whether your comparing it to an MMO or a proper Open World Shooter, D1 and D2 don't go far enough in either direction.

For example. How many total zones are there in D2? 6, 7? Compare that to any standard MMO, any single one. And it'll be obliterated in not only size but also scale. D1 finished with what, 3 raids? Find me an MMO with only 3 raids. Like it simply doesn't meet the bar set by even the basest level of MMO games, if this wasn't a shooter on consoles and it was a PC MMO, it wouldn't be successful. No serious MMO fans would be satisfied with the amount of end game content.

And that works same for the shooter crowd too. Crucible doesn't have enough maps or modes typical to a standard console shooter. There isn't enough variability in the mission design in PVE, that even if your doing something new on a new location, it still feels like you've done it before. Part of that has to do with their approach to quests, which is a more MMO themed approach with Public Events and the like.

Apart of it just has to do with the complications of the idea they set out to make. But I think it's pretty naive to not see some reason when people feel they are being nickle and dimed here. If it's an MMO, there shouldn't be sequels. I wouldn't be sitting here saying D2 has 1 raid because all the D1 raids would be playable on D2. Because that is how MMO's work. Yet here we are and already people are talking about the possibility of the team working on a Destiny 3 sequel, before all the DLC has even be released for D2. Like I just don't get a sense at all from the marketing, the dev team, or even the game, what exactly they want to make.

It's fine that there are those in the middle who see the structure of how things operate and are perfectly happy if tweaking and fixing the game around that structure is done. But that isn't enough for me. The concept of Destiny isn't realized enough to justify more and more dollars being thrown at Bungie. They need to figure out what they are making, and then market it accordingly. I still feel like if you asked the dev team "what kind of game is Destiny, and what are you trying to make it into" you wouldn't get quality answers. Whether that is true or not I don't know, but to me that is a testament to their lack of proper information and marketing over a clear direction.

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#42 Edited by Strangestories (424 posts) -

I mean...like others have already said, without any actual new content there’s still no reason for me to return to the game. The slow pace at which they release mechanical changes and/or sandbox changes is just mind boggling.

Also, I seem to remember everyone pleading Bungie NOT to nerf explosive rounds and instead bring everything else in line with it. Yet they are nerfing one of the only fun weapon perks that’s still in the game.

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#43 Posted by sammo21 (5968 posts) -

so it looks like the roadmap will be the same as Destiny 1

1. Put a game out people think they like out of the gate
2. Most players find endgame to be short and not sweet
3. DLC released is lacking and not accepted well
4. PVP doesn't satisfy most new players or even people who liked Halo
5. Bungie finally releases meaningful content a year later

Also, yes...I do think the lack of content is a big deal in Destiny 2. I really thought that since their dev tools and dev cycle was better on this one they would correct the mistakes...but nope. This Activision deal really killed Bungie in such a way I wish that they would just rename themselves. They are no longer community and quality focused.

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#44 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@sammo21: Their development process on Destiny 2 was apparently worse than Destiny 1. The only difference is they had a bunch of D1 assets this time around to fall back on, so the product as it came out felt less poor. It's not an issue of dev tools to adjust, they just don't focus on adjusting it. As for the Activision deal, there is no evidence anywhere that Activision is forcing anything upon Bungie apart from the contract they signed, which was a 10-year deal. It appears Bungie only has to deliver, but how they do it is completely up to them. For example, we have evidence that Eververse is completely a Bungie created and executed idea, Activision had nothing to do with it.

Perhaps their contract states a minimum profit the game should make, but it is Bungie who is thinking of the ideas to get there.

@pyrodactyl The simple truth for me that I can't seem to escape is that I still just love Destiny 2, regardless of its faults. The PvP is not even inherently bad, if you play teams that play independent of their team. The shitstorm arrives when people group up and start teamshooting, or worse, are Nightstalkers that go invis to run away to their friends. I get dominated in these matches even though I win 1v1 engagements. You can't blame the players, as the game is designed to promote that sort of play. But whenever I am in a match where people make it a point to not use that lame tactic, I am having a ton of fun. I still disagree with everyone that TTK is the problem. TTK is even longer in Halo and that game has some of the best PvP ever. You just lack options to engage multiple opponents and the tracker is ridiculously useful for spotting flanks like 2,5 years before they happen.

I am very excited about the upcoming sandbox update. I still raid every week, I had a ton of fun in Iron Banner and I still like Trials in the rare instances I have people on to play with. I have a ton of problems that they likely won't fix such as subclasses being horribly superficial, but as angry as I can get it appears I am never angry enough to stop playing forever.

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#45 Posted by sammo21 (5968 posts) -

@zevvion: How can their development process be worse when they had to go through such huge hoops to even make minor changes to textures and stuff last time? Their actual toolset was apparently one of the reasons they didn't change things too often in D1 because they would have to basically wait overnight or something dumb like that. I don't think Activision is forcing them into anything but a definitive release schedule of titles. As far as staffing goes, many of the people who made Bungie Bungie simply aren't there anymore. Sure, Luke smith and plenty of other "whatever" people are still there (he didn't even come on until post-Halo 3 after his 1Up article about what they should do to "fix" Halo 3) but the core Bungie guys have either left or got fired. The reason I said "the activition deal is what killed bungie" is that it seemed like the catalyst. They left Microsoft because they wanted to stake their own claim and have more autonomy but then they sign on for Activision.

You can even just take something as simple as community interaction and transparency and see they aren't the same company anymore. They used to be my #1 dev...now they are just another dev releasing games that feel unfinished, to me.

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#46 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@sammo21: I didn't mean the tools they are using, I meant the development Destiny 2 went through from conception until release specifically. Remember those issues Destiny 1 had about what it was supposed to be and parts of the game being scrapped? That happened again with Destiny 2 apparently. D2 was supposed to launch when Rise of Iron came out. Instead, Rise of Iron was created in 9 months because they knew D2 was going to be delayed. When RoI was nearly done, large parts of D2 were scrapped. Most of the game that we played on release had been made in about 12 months.

The difference with D1 and D2 is that Bungie can theoretically correct D2 faster and better than they did D1. Their idea of correcting it, however, is through DLC. Specifically the yearly one.

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#47 Posted by sammo21 (5968 posts) -

@zevvion: ah, I got ya. I don't doubt that D2 was a year's worth of dev time. They seem to have no distinct vision over there for the franchise.

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#48 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@sammo21: They don't. One of the most controversial changes was the weapon system change, where you now have two primaries and one Power Weapon. It has some upsides, but most people think it was a dumb decision. One of those people was literally Luke Smith, the director of the game. He had to be convinced by the sandbox team as he was very opposed to it. There was tons of internal debate and Luke ultimately gave in after he had played with the system and had some good plays.

They were very open about this in interviews. It just seems like management is crap at Bungie on all fronts.

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#49 Posted by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@devise22: I don't really disagree that Destiny 2 needs at least 1 new enemy race, but it's not like we don't already have 5 separate races to contend with (6 if you count Siva Infused Fallen). I do wish that other non Cabal races were given the fresh coat of paint that the Cabal got (3 brand new enemy types and extreme variations to existing enemies) with D2, as they were a very different enemy than what we faced in D1 with the Red Legion. DLC 2 has been rumored for months to be about a brand new race though, which should include all new enemy types. However, if we are talking about player spaces, I would actually say Destiny 2 is rather vast if not quite a bit underutilized. You have now 5 (EDZ, Titan, Nessus, IO, and Mercury) each of which range in size and significance. As shown in Curse of Osiris, there are still a ton of potential locations within these spaces able to be explored (like EDZ was in CoO). One such place I'd love to see explored more is Titan's New Pacific Arcology. Both the missions and Strikes located here have been some of my favorite in all of Destiny so far. Another such place was the Pyramidian on IO. Add to that the ability to easily bring back entire Planets from D1 (like Mars for DLC 2) in the smaller DLC's and I really don't think Player Spaces is an issue Destiny 2 should have. The issue is rather, how to do significant enough things within those player spaces.

Just a quick note on Raids, Destiny 1 had 4 Raids: Vault of Glass (Y1 Vanilla), Crota's End (Y1 Dark Below), King's Fall (Y2), and Wrath of the Machine (Y3). Two of those Raids were also remastered, with sections added and changed in Y3 for Age of Triumph when they were all re-released. So in a way there were 6 different D1 Raids, but two of them were just improved variations on Vault of Glass and Crota's End. As far as Raid content goes for Destiny 2 though, we had the largest Raid playspace ever with Leviathan, and already got 1 Raid Lair in Eater of Worlds (roughly the size of Crota's End in D1). We will also be getting a 2nd Raid Lair in DLC 2 (again likely the size of Crota's End). So if Bungie continues this path, we will be sitting at 2 Full Raids and 4 Raid Lairs in 2 Years rather than 4 Raids (1 of which is rather small similar to the Raid Lairs) in 3 Years. It's really hard to compare Destiny to an MMO like WoW, but if we are going there, WoW has been out 13.5 years with 6 Expansions. In that time they have had 40 (as a non WoW player I just looked it up on a Wiki so if that number is off, my bad) Raids. That's 2.96 Raids per year since launch. Now would I agree that Destiny 1 lived up to expectations in the Raid department, not really, especially in Y2. But they really are with Destiny 2. Even more I actually like what they are doing with the Raid Lairs, as each one just makes Leviathan feel bigger, and much more like the planet killer it was promised to be.

What I do agree with, and I think @pyrodactyl would also agree with, is that Bungie needs to put more End Game activities on the table. Raids, Nightfalls, and Trials are great, but Destiny really needs an End Game Horde Mode. The sad thing is Bungie has gotten so close to doing this well on several occasions. I know Pyro hates these examples, but Court of Oryx, Prison of Elders remastered, and Archon's Forge were all so very close to what needs to be done. Mix that with 6 players like Raids (using the Normal Raid Token System of 1 per Player for the duration of the activity), fix Guided Games/improve Clans and push that hard with this activity, and allow players a large playspace to take on infinite waves of enemies and Bosses, that increase in difficulty, even adding minor reused Strike and Raid mechanics as you get further in. Even turn on Round Modifiers like Prison of Elders had (sometimes positive, sometimes negative) and increase the amount the more rounds you finish (capped at like 4-5 Modifiers). You could even relaunch it as a remastered Prison of Elders. Use a system like the current Nightfall Strike Scoring and old Prison of Elders scoring that increases points as rounds get higher, and allow players to unlock better tier rewards the higher they reach (based on how long they survive). With everything going on, this type of activity popping up honestly wouldn't at all surprise me, especially considering what they already did with Prison of Elders, Archon's Forge, and Court of Oryx in Destiny 1.

As far as Crucible Modes go, I agree with you at launch, but not so much anymore now that they are reintroducing Destiny 1 Modes. The only three game modes that are missing from D1 are Elimination, Zone Control, and Rift since Rumble, 6v6 Iron Banner, Mayhem and soon 2v2 will be back (2v2 and Mayhem were already back in Events). And while I love and miss Elimination, Countdown is, in a lot of ways, a better version of Elimination, especially after the changes to Res coming in this patch. Salvage was always a terrible mode hated by the vast majority of the community, Skirmish is now basically just Clash since is 4v4, and Combined Arms isn't even possible unless they rerelease the D1 Combined Arms maps for it. I'd like to see Rift added to Quickplay, and Elimination and Zone Control added to Competitive along with the ability for players to choose Maps in the loading screen like all other PvP games over the past couple decades and some adjustments made to Matchmaking settings once Ranked Play comes out, but outside of that I think most of the Crucible Modes are fine. The core gameplay of the Crucible was the problem, and the hope is that update 1.1.4 tackles that problem.

@sammo21: Yeah, like @zevvion said, it appears that Bungie's biggest issue is their upper management is way too hands off for too long into development, and then walk in one day and says nope, scrap all that because I hate it, it doesn't fit my vision for Destiny. They've done that for every single piece of content, leaving the actual teams no time to put the then scrapped content back together. I'm glad I don't work for a place like that myself.

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#50 Posted by pyrodactyl (4221 posts) -

@zevvion: I won't believe they can iterate and fix problems faster until they prove it. For now, this seems on par with the iterative process of Destiny 1. The fall expansion will be the new taken king. A bandaid fix that will get praise but won't fix anything fundamental about the game. Hopefully they AT LEAST have something as worthwhile as new subclasses in there since that's basically the only thing the Taken King did right.

@hestilllives19: Saying these activities were so close to great is like saying a bag of chips is almost a full meal. Any Destiny horde mode will require depth, layers and worthwhile rewards. I'm looking for something on par with Nightfalls in scope. Not of that disposable junk they put out in the past.

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