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    Destiny 2

    Game » consists of 4 releases. Released Sep 06, 2017

    The full-fledged follow-up to Bungie's sci-fi "looter shooter", streamlining much of the previous game's mechanics while featuring larger worlds and new abilities. It was later made free-to-play.

    Crucible Radio 126 : Is this the D2 direction now and forever?

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    galerian

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    Reddit for download links.

    The DTG Reddit TL:DL (Careful with the comments. Salts abound).

    I am fine with D2 catering to the general/casual audience in PVE. My reasoning is that PvE activities can be easily categorized (for a lack of a better word on my part). You can tell what activity is going to kick your behind (nightfall, raid).

    PvP though. That is a tough pill to swallow. I think I'm close to giving up on it altogether because the solo experience is so bad. You are stuck to one play style, teamshot. Flanking almost never do me any good. The rare time you get a 1v1 is still a good, regardless the outcome. The few times I managed multikills(without super) should be a time for jubilation, but that never feeling never comes, and I can't figure out why.

    The reasons given on why PvP the way it is now in the podcast, means that this style is here to stay. I feel really bad if that is the case.

    Any thoughts, fellow Guardians?

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    Sarnecki

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    Destiny PvP has always been so bad that it's clearly not the focus of the franchise at all.

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    OpusOfTheMagnum

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    I got a really good feel for a weapon in PvP and not only stopped needing teammates tl get kills/multi-kills but carried several matches to victory. Not sure if its a balance issue or you just need to get very proficient with a weapon that fits your playstyle. I am not great at console shooters, but was able to find a lot of success especiay if I also made good use of the radar (absolutely essential) and had very good map awareness and paid attention to the way the other team moved and attacked.

    I used to feel the same but at some point I found my groove. I do think it might be harder than it should be to achieve that though.

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    galerian

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    @opusofthemagnum:Might be a meta thing. I "endured" for more than a year during the D1 shotgun meta because I have my loadout of The Last Word and a sniper. Problem is, the worse case scenario is that PvP overall pace (TTK, nade, etc) will never clicked with me, and that makes me quite bummed out.

    @sarnecki: Yeah, it was never the most balanced thing in fps, but boy D1 PvP was an amazing time for me.

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    ll_Exile_ll

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    #5  Edited By ll_Exile_ll

    @sarnecki said:

    Destiny PvP has always been so bad that it's clearly not the focus of the franchise at all.

    The first part of your statement is your opinion, so that's fine, but the second part is just wrong. PvP was incredibly popular in Destiny 1 and basically kept the game alive for long stretches of time between content releases. If not for Trials of Osiris, Destiny wouldn't have had nearly the Twitch presence it had throughout the entire 3 years of its lifetime. PvP has always been a hugely important aspect of Destiny.

    Furthermore, in Destiny 2 many elements of the PvE experience were sacrificed on the altar of PvP balance, so to say it's not a focus of the franchise is completely wrong. They redesigned and rethought core aspects of the game from 1 to 2 in order to make PvP a more balanced experience, and in the process they gutted much of what made PvE great. A common complaint for years has been that PvE players suffer because Bungie puts too much importance on tuning the PvP sandbox with little regard for how those changes affect PvE.

    In fact, I think many would say Destiny is too focused on PvP, and even as someone that played over 5500 games of PvP in Destiny 1 that is my feeling at this point as well. It certainly doesn't help that, as the OP has pointed out, they've seemingly failed to recognize why people liked PvP in the first game and taken it in the complete opposite direction, massacring much of what was great about PvE in the process.

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    galerian

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    Maybe I'm watching at non peak time, but D2 twitch viewers is around 7k during Trials time right now.

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    Hestilllives19

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    #7  Edited By Hestilllives19

    @galerian: Exactly. Destiny 2 has been real bad for Twitch streamers. It's not exciting to watch. Bungie went after a more balanced tactical shooter to seemingly draw a more Esport type of vibe from Destiny. In doing so they sacrificed the action packed thrilling moment to moment seat of your pants gameplay Destiny was known and loved on Twitch for. Many streamers have come right out and said they aren't really streaming Trials or Destiny 2 much anymore because they were losing viewership doing so (thus money). Which is crazy considering many of these same guys didn't have a Twitch career until Destiny came along and basically allowed many of them to stream Destiny for a living. A lot of those guys who were Destiny only streamers now mostly stream PUBG or Fortnight.

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    galerian

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    @hestilllives19: Yes, this is crazy. I dunno what was the path of discussions and meetings that lead them to the conclusion that a slower pace PvP will net them more Twitch viewership. Of all the exclusive D1 streamers that I watch, the only one that didn't like the emphasis on Special Weapons and Abilities of D1 was mtashed (Agree with him on special, not on the abilities), and he is also becoming a variety streamer now.

    On another note, I watched iFrostBolt stream Trials on PC, and the crispiness of HC with m+kb make me wish that Bungie will removed bloom on console as well.

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    Bvb_Finn

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    Why would they ever keep it the same? I mean, you can bet our cooldowns and ability times will rise with each new expansion, just like D1. Im sure we will get more interesting perks as time goes on as well.

    PvP will adapt, as always. No question imo

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    galerian

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    @bvb_finn: Because D1 is a highly entertaining and fun PvP experience. I was never in the top 20%, but I know I was going to have fun the majority of the time I play D1. I might misread your sentence, but if Bungie increase cooldown, and ability times, it'll probably turn me off D2 PvP altogether.

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    Hestilllives19

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    @galerian: I'm pretty sure he meant the opposite of that, as in they will decrease over time like they did in D1, but that isn't really all that true of a statement. While we did go from Vanilla being Tier 10, to Taken King being Tier 11, to Tier 12, all those did was, at least for players who knew what they were doing, decrease a mostly useless Melee Cooldown. Cooldown timers did change a few times, but that was due to Sandbox changes rather than adding another Tier. Another aspect of this that doesn't make this same philosophy apply to D2 is that from D1 they changed how these things work and more Power won't decrease cooldowns worldwide. While new Armors may have higher Mobility, Resiliance, and Recovery stats over time, we will still be locked to 1 Mod per Armor, and only 2 say Grendade Cooldown Mods until they completely overhaul the Mod System (something it desperately needs). Mods are currently unfun and uninteresting, and hopefully sooner rather than later Bungie will figure that out and fix them.

    IMO, Destiny 2's PvP would be a lot more fun and dynamic if TTK was lowered back down to Destiny 1 levels (or around 0.8-0.9s across the board), a place that was pretty perfect for this game (if anything it was only a bit too long due to the availability of Shotgun/Sniper ammo), Gamepad Accuracy drastically increased as well as base AA values closer to D1 (this would effect both Console and Gamepad users on PC, more or less drastically reduce Bloom and Initial Shot Accuracy M/KB users don't have to worry about), crank back up Movement Speed to D1 non Bones or Skating levels (more or less closer on Consoles to how the PC feels, maybe even a slight boost there), drop base Ability Cooldowns by 30% (from 83s to 58s) and rather than 9% Mods have a 15% reduction in cooldown (49s 1 Mod, 42s 2 Mods, compared to 69s with 2 Mods now), increase Grenade and Melee damage potential by 25% across the board to all Non AoE Grenades besides Tripmines (Scatter, Axion Bolt, Storm, Arcbolt, Firebolt, Fusion, Flux, Magnetic, Suppressor, Flashbang, Incendiary, Swarm, and Skip), increase the range and damage of the secondary effects of these grenades (Fusion, Flux, Magnetic, Suppressor, Flashbang, and Incendiary, half of the overall grenade damage should come from the AoE effects and effect anyone within the blast radius), increase the availability of Power Ammo in PvP (ie spawn 4 pickup points at a time rather than 2, killing other players without Power Ammo is both unfun and unfair, nobody benefits from the current situation), and reduce Rocket Ammo Capacity in PvP to 1 Rocket Max (there is a reason why Rocket Launchers are the PvP Meta, you can't take a Heavy Weapon people already didn't enjoy playing in competitive D1 because it was overpowered, keep it the same and throw it against the Special Weapons and think everything will be ok, less ammo for the most powerful Weapon is the easiest solution). I doubt we will see any of these changes tomorrow, because Jon Wisniewski is kind of the worst, but this is what the current Crucible needs to be viable. As much as all of this just sounds like revert changes back to Destiny 1 PvP, it's honestly a lot of what Destiny needs, because Destiny 1 PvP was a lot tighter, more fun game to play. Destiny 2 PvP as it stands is killing Destiny 2, and there is a very good reason why the Crucible was what kept Destiny 1 alive throughout it's lifetime.

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    Ungodly

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    I hated and rarely played D1 PvP, but very much enjoyed my time with D2 PvP. Sorry to hear that you’re not having a good time, but I think it’s fine.

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    SpaceInsomniac

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    #13  Edited By SpaceInsomniac

    Destiny 2 PVP is garbage, and is likely the reason why I'll never pickup any DLC for this game whatsoever. They need to bring back D1 style PVP, and keep this teamshot crap in the game as an optional competitive mode.

    Man, fuck what they did to this game. This was supposed to be the game that fixed what was wrong with Destiny, not the game that made Destiny considerably worse. Vanilla Destiny 1 didn't even have a PVE endgame that was this boring, and PVP was always fun.

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    galerian

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    Loading Video...

    I think this video sums up nicely why the PvP feels lacking at the moment for me.

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    Hestilllives19

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    #15  Edited By Hestilllives19

    @galerian: I watched that as well, pretty much agree with all of it.

    Just got a chance to listed to that entire Crucible Radio podcast. Man does Jon Weisnewski make me want to vomit sometimes. Comments on things like being at odds with the Live Team about things that just should be in Destiny 2 that the Live Team were confused why it wasn't included and Jon's response of "Destiny 2 is a different game" just reek of such arrogance to even his own co-workers. It really speaks to why Destiny 2 is in such a terrible spot right now. Both the Sandbox Team and the Dev Team are incredibly arrogant and really don't seem to care what the playerbase/community want from Destiny. They have their own vision for the game, and when that doesn't line up with our expectations or those of fellow employee's, we can all just screw off. The fact is both these two groups made straight terrible design choices and decisions, and it sounds like they are actively blocking the Live Team from cleaning up their mess. I really don't understand this type of arrogance and philosophy. Listening to this podcast really made me kind of sick, especially as a huge fan of the Destiny franchise, knowing that Bungie is both not listening to their Community very well, but also so many of their own employee's, and only willing to talk to the parts of the media who only toss them up the most Softball questions imaginable like on this Podcast. Listening to this really brings out my inner @pyrodactyl and starts to destroy the hope I've still had for the future of this game after Destiny 2's pretty poor launch. Especially after seeing the pretty much turd sandwich they dropped and called it a Sandbox Update yesterday. It really feels like Bungie is just making the same mistakes over and over for the lulz.

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    Zevvion

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    No Hero moments eh? We had a new guy for Calus just now who hadn't done it before and we had one guy disconnect as we got to the damage phase. We got through the damage phase with lots of stress, the guy reconnected, booted up Destiny and got back in as we teleported into the Shadowrealm. He spawned in dead, I revived him as we got to the Thrones room and we totally clutched it with subpar setup from then forward getting way too few stacks and literally depleting Calus' health as the last plate lost buff. I had no ammo for the entire second phase and had to use grenades and my Super. Actually had to punch Calus to try and get his shield down in time.

    It was the single most sketchy run I have ever done of any Raid in Destiny's history. It was amazing.

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    pyrodactyl

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    #17  Edited By pyrodactyl
    @galerian said:

    PvP though. That is a tough pill to swallow. I think I'm close to giving up on it altogether because the solo experience is so bad. You are stuck to one play style, teamshot. Flanking almost never do me any good. The rare time you get a 1v1 is still a good, regardless the outcome. The few times I managed multikills(without super) should be a time for jubilation, but that never feeling never comes, and I can't figure out why.

    The reasons given on why PvP the way it is now in the podcast, means that this style is here to stay. I feel really bad if that is the case.

    Any thoughts, fellow Guardians?

    This is also 100% how I feel. Although I disagree on 1v1 encounters. Because of the slow time to kill your opponnent can easily run away from any losing 1v1 engagements and lure you into a team shooting lane. It's lame and not fun. @hestilllives 's analysis of PvP has been pretty accurate. It's just not exciting anymore. When you win you don't feel like you did anything extraordinary. You just stood in the right spot and shot the same guys your teammates were shooting. When you're losing you don't feel like you can play better and pull it out because you need to be in complete synch with your team or you will eat dirt. The whole design goes against their stated goals. The barrier to entry for high level play is so much higher than it used to be because you need to be good AND have 4 people play like a hive mind. It's incredibly frustrating and most of the reason I did not buy the expansion that just came out

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    Dan_CiTi

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    I got the PromLens Day 1 and let me tell you...that thing sure makes PvP hilarious. Definitely gives you more skill than other players.

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    galerian

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    @dan_citi: Yeah, I fought a guy using that and got melted fast. We still roll over them cause we teamshot better. But, I've watched a few video of people using Lens, and think to myself "All the other guns should be "broken" like that".

    @pyrodactyl: @hestilllives19: I think the problem is there is only one meta playstyle. Teamshot. Anything else will put you at a disadvantage against people that are similar or higher skill level than you.

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    Zevvion

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    @galerian said:

    @dan_citi: Yeah, I fought a guy using that and got melted fast. We still roll over them cause we teamshot better. But, I've watched a few video of people using Lens, and think to myself "All the other guns should be "broken" like that".

    @pyrodactyl: @hestilllives19: I think the problem is there is only one meta playstyle. Teamshot. Anything else will put you at a disadvantage against people that are similar or higher skill level than you.

    This is an exaggeration that is being echoed in the community a lot. The top players in Destiny are still the aggressive players that do not teamshoot. I am no god by any means, but I consistently win against people with similar stats without teamshooting. Halo traditionally has a longer time to kill and that game is not about teamshooting for the most part. Destiny 2 made teamshooting effective. There is no doubt about that. But the notion that it is the only viable playstyle is incorrect.

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    TheManWithNoPlan

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    @zevvion: It was a crazy run for sure. I felt legit adrenaline when you mentioned ya'll were still going and I was waiting for the game to load back in. Kudos to ya'll for picking up my slack.

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    MachoFantastico

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    #22  Edited By MachoFantastico

    Had a lot of fun playing Destiny 1's PVP modes, even though they were far from perfect. But the PVP in Destiny 2 feels like a mess to be honest and just one of the reasons I've fallen off Destiny 2 in general. I was all set to invest in the expansions but I reached my limit quickly. I know its probably not the case, but I constantly get the feeling like Bungie don't really care. Actually found myself returning to The Division, which as its own large problems but I wish Bungie/Activision learnt a thing or two from Ubisoft with their free content updates. Hell 1.8 already feels like the same amount of content you'd find in a Destiny expansion.

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    galerian

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    @zevvion: Oh, I know I'm not that good. But in D1 I can be aggressive and take out a guy or 2 before checking out. The skill floor needed to be good in an aggressive playstyle is raised in D2. I might be wrong about Halo (didn't play past 2), but grenades and melees are really potent if used, no?

    @machofantastico: I don't think Bungie don't care too. It's just that they are set to let the sandbox be this way.

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    pyrodactyl

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    #24  Edited By pyrodactyl

    @galerian: @zevvion: I went flawless a lot in Destiny 1. I know how to shoot people and stuff but I'm not sure I could ever get to the point in Destiny 2 where I could be aggressive and not stick to my team all the time. I spent a lot of time trying and didn't have ANY success. I know it can be done, I've been on the receiving end of it. We had team wipes against single players who knew exactly where to place a grenade and where to be to pick us apart on by one or steamroll our team in one fell swoop. Unfortunately I don't find the process of getting better and the frustration of running into 4 people who kill me in 0.2 seconds over and over to be any fun at all. The rare supers, the slow grenade recharge, the suffocating playstyle they force upon 95% of players, it's tedious and infuriating.

    Everything Weisnewsky had to say in the podcast linked in this thread was incredibly disheartening and points to the fact that he has no idea why people were so passionate about D1 PvP. Now I hate D2 PvP about as much as I loved D1 PvP. I don't expect to buy any Destiny content until they make this half of the game good again.

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    VeggiesBro

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    @pyrodactyl: Jon Weisnewski couldn't be more clueless as a sandbox designer. Even back in Destiny 1 his choices were terrible and they would not ever admit it. All he has to do is check twitch and see Destiny 2 is not even close to its old numbers. Hell tonight (may not be the best night to check) Skyrim has 3 times the viewership on twitch that Destiny 2 has. I'm sure he's super proud of how bad he's made the damn game.

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    Zevvion

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    @pyrodactyl: I don't know what the difference could be between our experiences. Could it be weapon choice? Maybe you're just using weapons that don't work? Otherwise I have no idea.

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    pyrodactyl

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    #27  Edited By pyrodactyl

    @zevvion: Don't act like you can play this game using a solo playstyle and have anywhere as much success as you could in Destiny 1. As I've stated a billion times, getting a single kill in Destiny 2 PvP by yourself is an ordeal. Any player worth his salt can disengage from most 1v1 engagement when they're losing because it takes so damn long to kill anything. This means you either have to catch someone completely off guard or you have to land a good grenade. Because of the excruciatingly long grenade cooldown and the fact that team shooting kills people in a reasonable amount of time, creative solo play is demphasized. It can still be done but it requires play calling, extreme map knowledge and a kind of prescient playstyle I've never been good at or care to learn.

    In Destiny one you could punish any player who had overextended themselves. Grenades came back way faster and were super useful as securing a kill. Gameplay was more varied with clear distinction between primary and special weapons as well as abilities you could use frequently instead of once every 3 decades. Team play was an asset but not mandatory. The game was exciting as a single player was way more of a threat and could possibly turn the table on any situation. It was the only competitive multiplayer I still enjoyed and it's a tragedy they turned it into this boring, suffocating trash.

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    Zevvion

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    @pyrodactyl: I am not making that claim. I am saying I run mostly solo and have decent success. I am obviously no TrueVanguard or Ms5000watts in terms of stats, but you watch either of those two and they run solo as well, being some of the better players out there.

    I can win 1v1's and winning 1v2's isn't that rare for me. Of course I get teamshot too. Everyone does. You also did in D1, there is just more room for it here to allow it. But it can be prevented and countered, it isn't the sole way to play the game. The one strategy I heard the most in the last 6 months of D1's lifespan in Trials was 'teamshoot them'. People pretend like it never existed yet it was a completely valid strategy there too.

    Yeah, you're less effective solo than you were in D1. I don't understand why that is such a bad thing. I much prefer longer times to kill. It puts more emphasis on tactics than skill. The time to kill has to be way longer than it is to not allow skill to dominate still, as evidenced by top tier players who rely on their skill for solo play. Right now, you need a combination of both skill and tactics. Skill was the only determining factor at one point or another in D1 when special ammo was prevalent.

    You're telling me it is awesome to see a guy jump into a group of three people and take them all out. You're right, that is awesome to see. That is why D2 does less well on Twitch. Because it didn't focus on what you got to see. It focused on strategy. You can't tell me the scenario where one guy jumps in the middle of three dudes should realistically result in anything other them him getting shot to death, if you want a tactical game.

    That's not to say people who don't want Destiny to have more tactical gameplay as opposed to superhero gameplay are wrong, but it is a preference thing. I think D2 walks a good middleground because I can still feel powerful, but also need tactics. I really liked D1 PvP too, I just prefer this.

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    pyrodactyl

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    @zevvion: I also value tactical play over twitch reflex skills. Ask anyone who played D1 PvP with me and they'll tell you about my weirdo invis flanking maneuvers. That stuff was fun and rewarding as getting the jump on people in creative ways could win you games. Reflexes were important but so was all other aspects of the game like creativity, map knowledge, team work, etc. D1 had a perfect mix of all those things.

    Unfortunately they did away with that in Destiny 2. This game might not be as much about twitch reflexes than it use to but it's certainly less forgiving. Turns out having to land more consecutive shots to kill someone is harder. So is wiffing a grenade and having to wait forever to get it back. It's also much less rewarding. You don't get much from flanking anymore unless you synchronize perfectly with your team.

    This is what I mean when I say it's suffocating: every one of these changes pushs people toward concervative, boring playstyles that are stale and mind numbing. You say they made it more boring to watch. I say they made it more boring to play.

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    Zevvion

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    @pyrodactyl: Yeah, to be clear I wasn't claiming D1 had no tactical value at all; one of the reasons why I enjoyed D1 PvP so much was because it had a longer time to kill than Call of Duty. I always really liked the PvP progression in CoD quite a bit, but despite numerous attempts I just could never get myself to enjoy that game's multiplayer. I always liked Halo better in terms of actually playing it.

    I'm not sure how to explain that, but if I lose I always feel like I'm getting 'zapped' in Call of Duty as opposed to getting 'wrecked'. I just think that D2's slightly longer TTK brings it closer to Halo which is the TTK I like most.

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    galerian

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