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    Destiny 2

    Game » consists of 4 releases. Released Sep 06, 2017

    The full-fledged follow-up to Bungie's sci-fi "looter shooter", streamlining much of the previous game's mechanics while featuring larger worlds and new abilities. It was later made free-to-play.

    What would bring you back?

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    pyrodactyl

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    #1  Edited By pyrodactyl

    So Destiny 2’s second expansion just came out and no one cares. It seems like the few people who are still playing are more into the exotic rebalance patch than the actual content of the expansion. The story seems dreadful, the progression is all kinds of messed up and people I know who already own the DLC, people who played 2000+ hours of D1, haven’t touched it.

    Looking at gameplay, I still could imagine a universe where I would want to play the bigger fall expansion. But I’m incredibly skeptical Bungie can deliver the game I want to play looking at their track record. The fall expansion needs to be Destiny 2. It’s that simple. Not Destiny 1.5 but now it’s more like Destiny 1 like everyone seems to be asking for right now. Sure Destiny 1.5 is worse than Destiny 1 in many ways but just reverting to stuff we played for thousands of hours already wouldn’t be exciting or engaging.

    So what does Destiny 2 mean that isn’t in Destiny 1.5?

    1-Interesting subclasses that are new and different from the D1 subclasses. If your subclass isn’t as fun to play as devour voidwalker (basically the only well made subclass in D2) throw it in the garbage and start over. Put the emphasis on the power fantasy, you know, the thing the whole game is suppose to be based on. Differentiate the subclasses so they provide all kinds of different playstyles and truly reward players for engaging those playstyles. Maybe have different roles for people aside from kill dudes and kill a lot of dudes all at once?

    2-The Hunter dodge roll is the lamest shit Bungie ever pulled. Either introduce a second class ability that is good and fun or replace the dodge with something else. Titan wall also needs some help.

    3-New end game activity. Add a new kind of activity in PvE. We’ve been playing raids, nightfalls and PvP for years now. Make something new. A real horde mode or something. Don’t put it on patrol. Having to rely on random patrol buddies is lame and bad. I get that you think that doing stuff on patrol with randos is cool but it’s really not. Also maybe if we could go on patrol with a 6 men team you could put activities in there that aren’t so throwaway and forgettable.

    4-Fix the PvP. PvP is responsible for Destiny’s longevity. Why is Destiny 2’s PvP so boring and frustrating? Reduce time to kill, get away from this team shooting snoozefest.

    Bonus: exotic weapons are great now. Why is all the exotic armor so lame and bad? You got the insane stuff like that quiver that give you infinite shadowshot and you got everything else. All these exotics that are next to useless. You barely ever feel their effects. If I equip an exotic I should feel a change in my playstyle. Rebalance the exotic armor so it’s interesting and good. Risk breaking the balance of the game. Like D1 showed, an unbalanced game is better than a boring game.

    So do you see any of these actually happening in September? What would you want to see before you would give the franchise another shot?

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    JonRambo

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    The story was meh, the progression system is terrible. At 345 you hit a wall and can’t play any of the new content. I think the new raid lair is 370 and escalation protocol is 380. Feels like you’re just blocked from new content unless you grind through old stuff.

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    nutter

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    #3  Edited By nutter

    I’m pretty certain I’m done for good.

    Progression and loot took huge a step backwards. All the mystery from Destiny 1 is gone, too.

    Destiny 1 is probably my most played game this generation, and I really didn’t start putting time into it until Taken King. I played at launch, but Bungie hadn’t figured it out yet.

    Destiny 2 was streamlined to the point where I just don’t care about it. I pre-ordered Destiny 2 and the season pass, played it for a month, and have no desire to see the extra content I paid for.

    I think Bungie did something miraculous in turning vanilla Destiny (good ideas executed terribly) into something great with Taken King. The fact that they followed-up with a product worse in almost every way just makes me completely lose interest in Destiny as an IP, and VERY skeptical of what was once one of my favorite developers.

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    nutter

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    #4  Edited By nutter

    @jonrambo: Destiny 1 had this grind that was hard, but it felt like it paid off.

    In Destiny 2, I feel like I grind, never changing my gear, and nothing changes. Then I can get to new, underwhelming content. Why bother?

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    Ares42

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    Thinking about what kept me engaged in Destiny 1 I'd say they need to bring back a more casual approach to PvP. Although to be honest, even if they made changes (or if they already have) I'm not paying attention to the game at all anymore. So what they'd probably have to do is change the game up drastically for 3, just to grab my attention. Like, adding space combat, or making the open world stuff much more expansive and the focus of the game, or maybe allow people to play as any of the races (with expansive campaigns for each of them), or greatly expanding more traditional MMO elements like gathering and crafting or "homestead" customization.

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    Hestilllives19

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    #6  Edited By Hestilllives19

    @pyrodactyl: Honestly, every time I hear the Destiny 1.5 argument I don't really understand it. Destiny 2's biggest problem so far was actually it's departures from Destiny, rather than things not being iterated enough on. The entire weapon system was overhauled, loot system, microtransactions, the way classes function, etc. The problems are they solved these "issues" in terrible ways. The vast majority of the playerbase hates the double primary system. It's awful for both PvE and PvP. The loot changes to static rolls have made loot go stale extremely quickly, and Bungie has no chance to create loot fast enough to fix this issue. And an awful Mod system (Bungie even recently admitting to this) to replace Armor Perks was one of the worst loot based decisions possible. Microtransactions went from a few loot boxes for Events and Emotes having a $ value to everything based on loot boxes, and don't even get me started on the newest Prismatic Matrix scam they have going. Classes were not only not really updated, but they were actually all dumbed down by locking us into Perk Clusters that we could pick 1 of 2, removing any sort of creative Class Builds that happened frequently in Destiny 1 because players could pick individual perks. Almost all of these changes (Microtransactions excluded) were made to simplify the game for both Bungie and players, and essentially make development of content easier on Bungie because players were too powerful in Destiny 1, even after 3 years of constant nerfs. One of the biggest things Bungie needs to clue in on, and be ok with, is a portion of the Destiny userbase is extremely good at this game. No amount of arbitrary challenge is going to stop them, and forcing that on the entire rest of the playerbase isn't smart, it just makes the game less fun to play.

    Luckily, lately, Bungie seems to be realizing some of this. Like you mentioned Pyro, a lot of these bad systems will be being reverted in September. Based on some information talked about by community members who went to the Bungie Summit last month, and Bungie's own Development Roadmap, here are some of the upcoming changes for September.

    • Weapon Slot Changes - The Weapon Slot changes were shown to players at the Summit. Pretty universally they said the community will be happy with it when it comes out. It's very likely a return to Primary/Special/Heavy like in D1, but maybe we will get something else, who knows.
    • Weapon Randomization - This seems like it might be heavily linked to Mods 2.0, of which it should have been all along. Similar to how Exotic Weapons have added the Catalyst slot, we might be seeing Random Roll perks return in some form of Masterwork or extra Mod slots, where you have to track down Mods in varying Activities. Either way, content creators gave Bungie a list of Pro/Cons for why Random Perks on Weapons/Armor are valuable to Destiny and the problems they create. Hopefully Bungie can do something worthwhile with this.
    • Lowered PvP TTK - Pretty self explanatory, the PvP community has been demanding it since around December, especially after the Prometheus Lens "bug", of which more people enjoyed Crucible that week than in months, which was a completely broken gun. It will 100% happen in September, as it already started with the Exotic Weapons pass on certain Exotics that kill in the 0.8s or under.
    • Subclass Customization - Vaguely mentioned by some content creators and others present at the Summit, Bungie is working on something that they already showed players last month. Those players said it was a step in the right direction, but much more needs to be done, something they told Bungie. Hopefully in the 5 months Bungie has from the time of the Summit until September, they will do just that.
    • New PvE Activity - Across the board the Content Creators at the Summit loved this new Activity. Many said it will define Destiny going forward, just like Raids have. The only real hint about it that we have though was that in 2015, Destiny had some Activity that felt similar to MoreConsole. But we have no idea what that meant.

    Since you mentioned Exotic Armor changes, those are actually dropping in 1 week, and more in July. Likely most of the vanilla Armor pieces will be touched up and Masterworked next week, and some of the newer DLC ones in July. One of the things I'm most excited about coming is Crucible Labs, "Crucible Labs will give every player of Destiny 2 access to experimental PvP content. We’ll then have a chance to solicit your feedback to guide our final iterations." This sounds like a in game PTR, at least I really hope that is what this is. All in all, I'll be the first one to say Destiny 2 isn't in the place it should be right now, but it is in a much better place than it was in December. And with all of the changes coming between now and September, I'll definitely be coming back. Destiny 2's biggest problem so far is that it is boring for the sake of balance, and hopefully Bungie is realizing that is a massive problem, and the reason Destiny 2 is doing so poorly.

    @jonrambo: Just as a side note, while Spire of Stars is listed as a 370 Activity, the enemies in the final room do go up to 380 (which doesn't take Mods into consideration), so you have to be Max Level to not take extra damage and do full damage. Escalation Protocol is also I think a 370 Activity, but enemies on Round 7 actually scale to 400 Recommended, which is 15 higher than possible this DLC. Needless to say, I'm not a fan of any of this, especially Escalation Protocol, which basically requires 9 people above 370 Power to finish currently. This is bad game design, and artificially making your game difficult, and not mechanically like it should be. Spire of Stars has interesting enough mechanics, so leaving enemies in that final room at 370, and bumping them up to Max for Prestige that launches in July is what should have happened. And Escalation Protocol with Delta Scaling, and being a Public Space Activity... I have no words to describe how terrible that is. One of the things many players may not realize, is that most of the problems have been exasperated by the other changes to the Level Scaling of Incoming/Outgoing damage. Being even 10 Power underlevel is tough, as it makes you take 37% more damage, and deal 23% less. If you go down 20 Power, that's 119% inreased damage taken and 35% less damage output. It's really harsh, and EP forcing 77% more damage and 29% less damage because of Delta Scaling is awful. As far as the rest of the leveling process goes, I'm rather torn. I like the slower progression to an extent, but for it to work, Bungie needs to bring back Smart Loot. Getting 5 Gauntlets in a Row, when you only have a finite amount of possible Powerful Gear drops per week is devastating, especially when Powerful Gear is only giving you +5 Power per drop as well. The game needs to give you Gear you need, and the leveling needs to go quicker than it is now, because as it currently stands, even players like myself who are playing 4+ Raids, 2+ Flawless Trials runs, every single Milestone, and even smaller stuff like Double Nightfall on each character per week for the 2 Powerful Gear drops, are barely going to hit 385 in one month. That's far too slow, especially when the two pinnacle activities for this DLC, Spire of Stars and Escalation Protocol require such high Power Levels. I do like the changes being made next week to Heroic Strikes, dropping 360 loot, but the worst part is that will be dropping a bit late after most players have already grinded Heroics and are now past 360. Hopefully in the future they will get Leveling better, because it's far from perfect right now.

    Side Note: I completely agree about the Warmind Story. It was pretty awful, and worse than Curse of Osiris IMO. Even worse, it wasted the potential of some really important (Lore Wise) characters. Part of me wants to say in the future they should just leave the story stuff to Bungie, and out of Vicarious Visions hands, but Bungie doesn't do a very good job of it either. Maybe just grab some random Lore YouTubers and have them write the Destiny 2 DLC's, haha. MyNameIsByf would certainly write a better story for Destiny than anybody over at Bungie, because unlike Bungie he actually knows the game's Lore...

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    TheHT

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    Dinklebot.

    Orrr just a bigger focus on strikes? Wasn't really into like half the strikes from vanilla Destiny 2. Ehh, at this point I don't think what's there in Destiny 2 to build off of is workable for me personally. I tried the new move fast stuff and it was cool, but just kinda highlighted all of my other issues with the game.

    I'm just gonna wait for Destiny 3. Figure by then we'll get new classes and/or subclasses, new factions, and dear god hopefully less Taken, among other nea features. I dunno if this is a common sentiment, but Destiny 2 felt like the conclusion of Destiny 1 to me, in every way. Narratively and wrt content.

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    ripelivejam

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    @theht said:

    Dinklebot.

    This. Never got the hate. But I guess the real reason they didn't continue with him is he's too hard to get reliably, shame.

    Also nephalim rifts.

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    devise22

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    A cohesive game that was more focused on interesting content than just putting in numbers. Their decision to make the guts of Destiny more MMO just ruins the game for me. I gave it all a pass in Destiny 1. Loading screens instead of being able to fly around? Fine. It's the first pass. Only a couple of types of vehicles and nowhere other than a few key moments in some stories to really engage and use that stuff? Fine, it was a first pass. Only 4-5 enemy factions including Taken? Again fine, not an amazing number considering how much that game with all DLC was. But it's a first pass.

    Destiny 2 can tweak as much of the gameplay as it wants. There were literally no real new enemy types at launch, and all the problems I just listed above....are the same. Loading screens to drop zones in an era when more and more games are becoming these vast fucking open worlds, D2 continued with the trend of you load to zones. It's just the laziest sequel of all time. Recycled enemy types, gun types, zones, assets, hell when you beat the game they just give you the Tower again. You don't even really get a fully new hub space until the DLC.

    I want the game Destiny initially was teased as, this lost narrative game where each encounter ended up being exceptionally memorable. At this point I'd tolerate a Destiny sequel that had zero MMO trappings. Get rid of them. I don't need to see a bunch of randoms in a tower like space either. Just want a real open world, and the ability to play with friends. Put your crucible as a separate thing entirely maybe make that a hub space that you fly to to engage with. I just want something more, more than what they have delivered on pretty much every front other than the encounter design and the gunplay. Bungie nails that out of the park, but this sort of Diablo sort of MMO sort of console shooter experience is stale popcorn as far as I'm concerned. Zero interest in it if they don't provide an open world at this point. I want to get into that lore, that world, the art and the designs far more than I can because it's all just storefront marketing for good shooting as a service.

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    burncoat

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    I started Destiny with Destiny 2 so all I have to judge it on is by the game I was presented with and what it is now.

    I'm still having a lot of fun with the game. I found a good, active and upbeat clan that can handle Prestige raids and Nightfalls without problems. We understand the faults of the game, but it doesn't detract from the fun we have when we go through the raids and other content. We're still getting new people and guiding them through the different challenges and helping get them up to light cap.

    First, I genuinely don't care for PvP so Bungie can do whatever they want to it, it will never not be something I dread having to deal with for my Powerful Engram. I don't play competitive shooters anymore because they made me way too angry, but even with stuff like TF2 or Overwatch I could just throw myself forward and still manage to have fun. Here, not so much. Until their chaos mode or whatever comes back, I dread the hour and a half I have to complete the crucible engrams on all my characters, even if I spread it out over the week.

    Now as somebody that never had to deal with Destiny 1, I don't know why a vocal part of the fanbase is pining for randomized weapons to come back. I thought for sure that the Masterwork systems would replace that, but it didn't. People want god-roll weapons again and it's just weird to hear people waxing nostalgic over grinding for them in D1. That sounds like a terrible timesink for no reason other than "the numbers go up on this one gun I really want to use". Again, I can only say this from a person who observed people playing D1 and their reaction to D2. I don't know how it really was, but it didn't sound like it'd be the thing for me.

    With the latest expansion it seems like they took some notes from the community who complained the game was too easy or that they could get to the end content too fast. Bungie's solution was to bump up the difficulty on the enemies. This, coupled with a rework of the light system and how damage you deal to and receive from enemies was reduced or raised based on your light level differences, with enemies higher than you ranging from red, to skull, to "??" if you were too far out of the range. It makes the harder content something to look forward to rather than something you can bust out in a week and be done. You can still do the new raid lair under the recommended level (I was able to beat the first 2 and get up to the last encounter at 350-360), it would just be a little harder and require some more coordination and caution than you'd give on a normal raid. My clan has already been working on legit strategies for dealing with both the lair and escalation protocols that we'll probably be able to crush next week. I don't see this as a problem, but something to look forward to, so it's odd to see people complaining about it. I remember when the raid first came out and I was just below the light level recommendation for Calus. I was still able to complete it. It was difficult, I died easily, but I couldn't get any further that week so I had to toughen up and get better. I feel like it's the same thing to deal with now. Also, there's at least one gun that you have to wait 5 weeks to get so by the time you get that you should be at or around light cap anyways.

    People have completed the new lair and level 7 escalation protocols already so it's not impossible at lower levels. The worst part was honestly the 345 wall and the raising of Heroic Strikes to just out of that range at 350. That was super annoying, but also kinda fun to have a challenge after Nightfalls became a lot easier. I don't see it as a cheap way to increase difficulty when they already do so many more annoying things for difficulty, like Momentum, Prestige Hive Knights shielding up and regaining health every 5 seconds, or just a larger increase in the number of Elite enemies. That's how I've always seen the steps up in difficulty act, so it doesn't feel all that cheap to me when all they're doing is raising the level requirement.

    Storywise it's a solid "meh". Like the main campaign, it feels like there are multiple scenes missing. Why did Zavala show up so suddenly before me or anybody else? Why is Rasputin sending out more Warsats a bad thing? Xol just pulls a Dr. Evil "I'll just assume he died and everything went according to plan"? Killing a Hive God by yourself seems like an impressive thing for a single guardian, but that canonically puts Xol on a tier lower than Ghaul and most strike bosses. We did get some juicy Exo lore though that I love. But overall, I think I preferred Osiris and its set-pieces more.

    I still like Warmind overall. I still like Destiny 2. It feels great to play. I'm loving a lot of the changes they're rolling out (the exotic changes and masterwork "quests" are great). I will never be able to understand it like a Destiny 1 veteran and I agree that there is room for improvement, but I loved it on launch and still love it.

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    breq

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    Destiny should be the definition of games as a service. There never should have been a Destiny 2. It should have been a major expansion/update. The whole "oh no, they blew up all your old loot" was insanely lame. I should be able to boot up Destiny right now and play any of the new or old content. Destiny 2 should have started where 1 left off, feature-wise. By the time Rise of Iron came out, Destiny was in a great place. Why they decided to throw everything out and start all over is beyond me.

    Does anyone remember that lie about Eververse microtransactions being introduced to fund a team for more live events? Where are they? There are even less now than before Eververse showed up. Destiny 1/2/whatever is a phenomenal game constantly stunted by Bungie and Activision. I guess that's what happens when you scrap your game entirely late in production, both times. I rant, and yet I'm about to go play some strikes. I'm also the problem.

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    deckard

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    Either make Destiny a service like some have already said, or make the DLC a comprehensive expansion pack like Blizzard does for WoW and specifically Diablo (ironically enough). Reaper of Souls for Diablo III introduces new enemies, locations, an entirely new environmental art style, a new character class, etc. You also can access the majority of the content just by playing the expansion, not grinding for levels.

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    nutter

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    @breq: If Destiny 2 was just the addition if the new earth woodland area, a graphical coat of paint, and the ability to avoid loading into orbit all the time, it would have been great.

    It’s a sequel that gave you significantly less to do than the previous game.

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    ll_Exile_ll

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    #14  Edited By ll_Exile_ll

    @hestilllives19:

    None of what you've said really supports your argument against the Destiny 1.5 complaint. The simple fact is Destiny 2 never had any intention of being an ambitious sequel, it was simply more Destiny with some tweaked tertiary systems. Whether or not the changes were good or bad (some were good, most were bad) is not really relevant. They weren't new features, gameplay mechanics, or activities, they were tweaks to background systems more akin to something you'd expect to read about in patch notes rather than selling points for an entire new game.

    At the reveal event, they were talking about "a new raid, new planets, and new strikes." That's the type of promotion you expect to hear about an expansion, not a sequel. Where are the new gameplay mechanics, new classes, new enemy types, and new modes? Even the three "new" subclasses are just rebranded alterations to D1 subclasses. Where are the game changing new ideas? Everything about the structure and content of the game is the same as the first game. All the good changes you talk about coming in September aren't game changing new additions, they are just fixing mistakes that never should have been made.

    Even if they do fix everything that they screwed up in Destiny 2 and every single one of these changes is executed brilliantly, Destiny 2 will still not be worthy of being a true sequel. It will merely be what Destiny 2 would have been at launch if it were a safe and predictable sequel executed on well, rather than a safe and predictable sequel executed on terribly like it actually was. It will still be the same routine of PvP, Nightfalls, and Raids without any revelations to the formula.

    The hope for Destiny 2 was that it would take everything great about Destiny and expand upon it into something new while still retaining what made Destiny 1 great. The best hope for it now is that maybe it will end up being a continuation of Destiny 1 at its peak, and that's a big maybe at this point. They're so busy fixing all their stupid mistakes to even consider trying anything new and exciting.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there's hope of Destiny 2 ever being anything more than a well executed Destiny 1.5, and who knows if they ever even get there. I'm sure that's enough for some people, but I already put a ridiculous amount of time into Destiny 1, if they aren't going to evolve the formula and try to do new and interesting things, I don't think I'm interested in continuing with the series.

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    nutter

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    @ll_exile_ll: Admittedly, I’ve skimmed some of this, but my issue with Destiny 1.5 is that it insinuates that Destiny 2 is like Destiny 1.

    Destiny 2 is too different. I’d have preferred another Taken King or Rise of Iron to Destiny 2.

    Destiny 2 isn’t good enough to be called Destiny 1.5 because Destiny 2 isn’t worthy to hold Destiny 1’s hat.

    That’s where I come from, anyhow.

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    ll_Exile_ll

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    #16  Edited By ll_Exile_ll

    @nutter said:

    @ll_exile_ll: Admittedly, I’ve skimmed some of this, but my issue with Destiny 1.5 is that it insinuates that Destiny 2 is like Destiny 1.

    Destiny 2 is too different. I’d have preferred another Taken King or Rise of Iron to Destiny 2.

    Destiny 2 isn’t good enough to be called Destiny 1.5 because Destiny 2 isn’t worthy to hold Destiny 1’s hat.

    That’s where I come from, anyhow.

    The Destiny 1.5 argument isn't about quality, it's about direction and ambition. They had no intention of actually building upon Destiny 1 and expanding the concepts. They simply wanted to make more Destiny and call it Destiny 2. The fact that they also changed a bunch of systemic elements like progression, loot economy, and sandbox balance for the worse is sort of a separate issue.

    In fact all the regressions from Destiny have actually masked Destiny 2's more fundamental issue, the lack of ambition. Because even if all the problems people have with progression, balance, PvP pace, and loot economy were not present from the start and were all on the level of Destiny 1's high points, Destiny 2 would still be a safe, ambition-less game happy to tread the exact same ground and offer the exact same experience as its predecessor. There was no leap forward, nothing within it that offers anything new compared to the first game. Even a completely idealized version of the current Destiny 2 would be nothing more than Destiny 1.5.

    The across the board issues resulting from idiotic decision making by Bungie makes things much worse, but even if none were present Destiny 2 is still not the sequel it should have been.

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    nutter

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    #17  Edited By nutter

    @ll_exile_ll: Well, it sounds like we’re both huge fans of Destiny 2...

    I think we’re saying similar things in different ways. I do think it’s a departure from Destinty 1, but only insofar as how they sanded away every rough edge and every potential offense (along with any unique or curious design) to the point where the game is bland, safe, and not in any way interesting.

    Where I THINK you see this as the traditional 1.5 approach (Splatoon 2, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe), I think it probably took some (super misguided) work to get from Destiny 1 to Destiny 2.

    If they just added new worlds, gear, and enemies (is Bungie even capable of creating new enemies anymore? Even the enemies in Destiny 1 were mostly cheap Halo analogs) in keeping with the Destiny 1 framework, I’d probably be playing today with my only complaint being having to go orbit too often.

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    mike

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    Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there's hope of Destiny 2 ever being anything more than a well executed Destiny 1.5,

    Well from Activision's standpoint does it really need to be? They can just put out a couple more expansions and then try again with Destiny 3.

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    Bane

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    #19  Edited By Bane

    Get rid of the soft caps and grind walls. All of them.

    Like @hestilllives19 said above there will always be a subset of the playerbase that will demolish any grind put in front of them. I'm not part of that subset so when I hit soft caps and grind walls I put those games down and move on to something else.

    Theoretically Bungie could get me to spend more time in Destiny by removing these impediments. I could play from 100 to 345, hit the soft cap, and put the game down. Or I could play from 100 to 385, play some end game content, and then put the game down. Assuming 100 to 345 takes the same amount of time either way I'm spending more time in the game without soft caps than with them.

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    pyrodactyl

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    #20  Edited By pyrodactyl
    @ll_exile_ll said:

    @hestilllives19:

    None of what you've said really supports your argument against the Destiny 1.5 complaint. The simple fact is Destiny 2 never had any intention of being an ambitious sequel, it was simply more Destiny with some tweaked tertiary systems. Whether or not the changes were good or bad (some were good, most were bad) is not really relevant. They weren't new features, gameplay mechanics, or activities, they were tweaks to background systems more akin to something you'd expect to read about in patch notes rather than selling points for an entire new game.

    At the reveal event, they were talking about "a new raid, new planets, and new strikes." That's the type of promotion you expect to hear about an expansion, not a sequel. Where are the new gameplay mechanics, new classes, new enemy types, and new modes? Even the three "new" subclasses are just rebranded alterations to D1 subclasses. Where are the game changing new ideas? Everything about the structure and content of the game is the same as the first game. All the good changes you talk about coming in September aren't game changing new additions, they are just fixing mistakes that never should have been made.

    Even if they do fix everything that they screwed up in Destiny 2 and every single one of these changes is executed brilliantly, Destiny 2 will still not be worthy of being a true sequel. It will merely be what Destiny 2 would have been at launch if it were a safe and predictable sequel executed on well, rather than a safe and predictable sequel executed on terribly like it actually was. It will still be the same routine of PvP, Nightfalls, and Raids without any revelations to the formula.

    The hope for Destiny 2 was that it would take everything great about Destiny and expand upon it into something new while still retaining what made Destiny 1 great. The best hope for it now is that maybe it will end up being a continuation of Destiny 1 at its peak, and that's a big maybe at this point. They're so busy fixing all their stupid mistakes to even consider trying anything new and exciting.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there's hope of Destiny 2 ever being anything more than a well executed Destiny 1.5, and who knows if they ever even get there. I'm sure that's enough for some people, but I already put a ridiculous amount of time into Destiny 1, if they aren't going to evolve the formula and try to do new and interesting things, I don't think I'm interested in continuing with the series.

    This is spot on. When Bungie announced they were pushing Destiny 2 a year to fall 2017 instead of the initial planned release date of 2016 we were bummed but I think most of us understood it would be worth it if they had to have more time to make the game better and more ambitious. I remember speculating with count on what could be the fourth class or the fourth subclasses that were obviously coming in Destiny 2. What kind of new activities they would bring to vary up the gameplay for people who already put thousands of hours in the franchise. But Destiny 2 had none of that. At the reveal event it became clear they were making Destiny 1.5. They were tweaking, mostly dumbing down subclasses, tweaking public events, tweaking PvP. It was all the same stuff but a bit different and mostly worse. Remember the reports from Kotaku talking about hub zones in patrol? MMO type areas and a more open world design. That's the kind of stuff you put into a sequel. But no, the ONLY sequel worthy innovation they had were class abilities. A mechanic that went incredibly under utilized in the game and a slap in the face of all hunters everywhere.

    If Bungie ever gets around to fixing all their mistakes I kinda look forward to the community realizing it isn't enough. We've played Destiny 1 for 3 years. We all dropped it by the end. We need some new exciting stuff. Stuff I outlined in the OP.

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    pyrodactyl

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    @mike said:
    @ll_exile_ll said:

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there's hope of Destiny 2 ever being anything more than a well executed Destiny 1.5,

    Well from Activision's standpoint does it really need to be? They can just put out a couple more expansions and then try again with Destiny 3.

    Maybe but I see the field being much more crowded by the time Destiny 3 comes out. If we're all playing Anthem and/or The Division 2 by that point I don't see us going back to Bungie's bullshit.

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    pyrodactyl

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    @hestilllives19: I hope you're right about all that stuff lives but I'm not getting my hopes up. All we've heard has been incredibly vague and we're just projecting our own expectations into it. I know where that path leads. We've been projecting expectations on Bungie for years and it's very likely the september expansion will be too little too late. Let's just say this: the Taken King was Destiny 1's first big expansion. It added 3 game changing new subclasses but in retrospect I don't think it was all that great. So yeah, maybe this time they'll do better. I'm not counting on it.

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    Hestilllives19

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    #23  Edited By Hestilllives19

    @ll_exile_ll: From that perspective, I totally understand, but I don't think there was ever any hope of Destiny 2 being that, at least not after DRE which was like 8 months before Destiny 2's release, so maybe that's why I don't even consider that a possibility. I don't think anybody would really argue against new Enemy races besides the original 4 (because we did get new Enemy types within each race, and still are getting them, including some in Warmind, and I do not really count reskinned Races like The Taken, Siva Fallen, Red Legion, or these Frozen Hive as new Races), Subclasses (or heck even new Perk Clusters at this point), and Activity types (of which we will finally be getting something substantial this Fall, at least that's what we've been told). To Bungie's credit though, the new Destinations in Destiny 2 were pretty cool, specifically Titan's New Pacific Arcology and IO's Pyramidion, but I just wish they would, and still could, do more with those awesome locations, and not just a cheap mission and strike for each. And while Mercury in Curse of Osiris was terrible, the Mars varient in Warmind, Hellas Basin is actually pretty good. One could also point to Raid Lair's as being the cool new Activity, but in my mind, they just fill the Raid gap that should have been there from the start, albeit in kind of a perfect way, but it's still content we should have always been getting with each DLC, and Escalation Protocol is in the same boat (even as fun as Escalation Protocol is, because let's be honest, it's just the best version of Court of Oryx/Archon's Force/Prison of Elders and we've already done all of that). But, besides new locale's, I agree, if Destiny 2 should be new Races, Classes, and Activities, it fell flat on it's face so far.

    My disagreement however comes from the fact that Destiny 2 at launch, felt about as different as possible in a moment to moment perspective, as any game could and still be considered within the same franchise. Heck, Bloodbourne felt more similar to Dark Souls than Destiny 2 did to Destiny. And like both of us, and many people here have pointed out, not in any kind of good way. Destiny 2 moving back towards that moment to moment gameplay of Destiny 1 is nothing but a good thing too IMO, because there is a reason so many people, millions of people, loved that game and couldn't put it down, and it had nothing to do with the Story, enemy Races, or even for the most part the Activities (outside of the Raid draw obviously). Most of that stuff was pretty terrible in Destiny 1, but the thing they did pretty much perfectly, was gameplay. And screwing that up in Destiny 2 was a huge misdirection for the series. So when I say I wish Destiny 2 was more Destiny 1.5 than it was, that's a huge part of it.

    Another huge part, and something many people here have talked about a lot, is that Destiny 2 wiped the Destiny slate clean for zero reason. I understand the updated engine, but since you have all of the assets already, and two entire other studios helping you with the project, why in the world couldn't you have moved over all of the Legacy Destiny 1 content into Destiny 2. Just assign High Moon Studios to do this, even if they could only put out parts of throughout Destiny 2. Prioritize Raids, Strikes, and PvP maps, and then re-releasing all of the story content. And allow players a better way than 3 Ikora missions a week to replay Story Missions, thus allowing players, such as PC players to play through the Destiny 1 Campaign's in they want. Dropping PC players in the middle of a franchise, with no ability to play 3 years worth of content is silly.

    So I am very much in the camp that think's Destiny 2 would have been vastly better served as a major DLC rather than a slate clearing sequel. I even understand putting a 2 on the box to sell copies and bring players back to the franchise, but it should have been treated more like a continuation of the franchise than it ultimately was. And from that perspective, Bungie is mostly doing what needs to be done to get back to where they should have started at to begin with, which is... better I guess.

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    two_socks

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    I think for me to get back into Destiny 2, at least in a similar way that I was into Destiny 1, I need to see the progression/loot stuff well and truly figured out. Loot right now is incredibly boring, to the point where all I'm looking at is the number attached to it. There's not a lot of interesting guns outside of exotics, and the situation is even worse when it comes to armor. I don't know if random rolls is the fix to this issue, it seems more like a fix to the issue of a lack of sustained grind. I'd also like to see them figure out a smoother progression in terms of Power Levels, because the system right now just seems awful, especially as someone who doesn't Raid. I have my Milestones to progress in terms of Power and then for the rest of the week I feel like I have no real reason to play. The loot is so boring that I don't see much reason in grinding PvP or Strikes for random Legendary drops, nor are the Vendor options all that enticing so as to encourage grinding for Rep. And on some level, even Power level is meaningless because the only activities that require it are Prestige Nightfalls, the Raid, and Escalation Protocol. So in the end I'm really only playing Destiny 2 to see a number increase, and then I shut it off.

    I'm not entirely sure what the answer is, or even if there is an answer. Maybe I'm just done with Destiny in general.

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    Hestilllives19

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    #25  Edited By Hestilllives19

    @two_socks: I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. At this point I think actual static rolls are fine (they are easier for Bungie to balance and players to obtain base weapons), but I think there has to be a lot more going on with them. So much of that can be drastically fixed by an improved Mod's 2.0 on both Armor and Weapons, because right now they are both boring and feel drastically underpowered. Legendary Weapons desperately need the love Exotic Weapons just got with Catalysts in some way, mainly because they've already been stripped of a primary perk in Destiny 2 vs Destiny 1, and it's one of the major reason's why Legendary Weapons feel so underpowered compared to D1's Arsenal. Allowing players to find Weapon Mods in the wild, that range from Rare, to Legendary, to Exotic, and equipping them on certain weapon classes (especially if they bring back some powerful perk options from D1 and new ones) would do wonders to make the static weapon rolls feel unique and powerful. The same goes for Armors that basically just feel like cosmetics now, but with 2 Mod slots, one for Abiltility Cooldowns (so 5 cooldowns of 9 possible, which seems fair) and another for unique Mods like the current Bracket/Munition/Counterbalance and bring back some D1 Mods (Fastball, Rain Blows, Ashes to Assets, Burn Resist, extra reserve ammo, etc) and create new ones (this 2nd Mod slot is where Raid specific Mods would stack on Raid Gear). I have a feeling something in the realm of this is actually happening for September, but that is going to be a wait and see game of if this type of stuff happens, I hope it does, because one of the major things the Exotic Tuning pass showed heavily is that Gear is drastically underpowered, and what Destiny 2 desperately needs is that to be turned back up to 11.

    As far as the grinding or the lack of it in Destiny 2, I think Bungie has actually done a rather great job of fixing that already, so I hope they continue doing what they are doing on those fronts, I just hope Masterwork Armor gets some touch ups, because Orb generation for Weapons is awesome, but extra Super Resist is pretty worthless. Hunting Masterworks is actually pretty fun and the only change I'd like to see is a guarantee that a dismantle will grant 3 Cores, rather than 1-3 (which almost always means 1). The hunt for Exotic Catalyst's should also be a bit more straightforward in the future, and not so beholden to RNG. I know that would be harder for Bungie to write that random chance from 4 types of activities and split all Exotic Catalyst's into those 4 groups, but I wish they would put certain one's with a high chance from certain EP rounds, or Strikes, or Raid Encounters. It feels weird that I didn't get a single one for 2 weeks and then in one Heroic Strike 3 dropped at once, and I haven't got another since. Hidden Quests for Sleeper Simulant, Polaris Lance, and possibly Black Spindle (maybe, there is a database image and lots of players are looking for it currently) are really cool, and I hope they continue this going forward. These are the types of grind Destiny 2 needs, Hidden Quests, Exotic Catalysts, and Masterworks.

    I say all of that to say this, I completely understand where you are coming from on the base leveling system. One Bungie quote that gives me hope for the future is this, "I think one thing I could have been more clear about was that the Warmind progression system is an improvement over Curse of Osiris, but still not where we ultimately want to end up. It’s a step down the road to make the game more in line with where we want it, but we need to make these iterations one step at a time so we can incorporate feedback and ensure we're heading in the right direction." - Senior Investment Designer Daniel Auchenpaugh on TWAB. This was his quote before talking about the implementation of Heroic Strikes dropping 360 Gear around every 5th Strike. While I don't think this is enough, and it should just be Heroics drop up to 360 Gear period, I do think this is a step in the right direction for where Warmind should have been at launch. I'd also prefer to see all Powerful Gear go back to around a +8 increase, with Trials/Raids set at +12, rather than +3 and +5 (at least that's what it appears to be after hitting 370). This effectively means I need a perfect drop ratio, and 30 Raid quality drops after 370 to hit cap (and considering duplicate slots, that's more likely around 50 drops), of which it's only possible to get 22 per week (completing Leviathan + Challenge, Leviathan Prestige + Challenge, Eater of Worlds, Spire of Stars, and Trials Flawless). So doing everything, it might be possible, after hitting 370, to gain those other 15 levels in 2 weeks, if you have great RNG. And since it has taken most players a solid 2 weeks to hit the 270's, that's a full month this DLC, for the most hardcore of players, which is absurd to me. The other thing I really hate in Destiny, is Delta scaling, or making it impossible to reach the Level of enemies until the next expansion. Escalation Protocol already has this, and with the final room of Spire of Stars being Max Level, the Prestige version of that will undoubtedly have it as well. So both of these are things that I agree need drastic improvement before September. At this point, this might be another Forever 29 (Vanilla D1) or Forever 319 (Taking King until April Update) moment for me, where I just give up on even trying to hit level cap, and both of those were huge lows in Destiny's grind where I felt like Bungie "figured it out" afterwards. Hopefully they have that moment again of House of Wolves or the April Update, where they stop caring about players hitting Max Power. This has always been a struggle for Bungie, and Destiny 2 vanilla was too far in the easy to obtain direction, and Warmind is the exact opposite again.

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    soulcake

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    More Diablo stuff talking about shit ton of randomizers in gear maps Some sort of Nephelam rift for Destiny, Don't make more assets. Just plugin in random numbers behind it to keep the playerbase entertained and then make solid Expansion esque DLC not some dumb " here's a story quest and a Raid Module. Create more Depth in gear! Stats in Destiny don't seem to matter at all ? Tier sets! just MAKE DIABLO WITH GUNS! hey your with Blizzard how hard can it be? (Probably really hard knowing how shitty there engine is) MAKE A NEW ENGINE that's more modular! If i was there game designer i would have Written Diablo with guns and there whiteboard. It's Possible. Diablo III has a nice balance between story and replayability. And for the pvp aspect dump it or make it more like HALO i guess.

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