Alex should've stopped talking against Destiny and start arguing for something else to get on instead. He couldn't because he didn't care about the other games of the year the way Brad cared about Destiny. Too bad

Except Brad gave Diablo 3 5 stars, calling it "one of the most insidiously satisfying loot treadmills"

Then again, Brad changing his opinion on games on a daily basis is nothing new.

I don't feel like anything on the list was in the same ballpark as Destiny. Dan held the banner for MK8 but Alex enjoyed it, and everyone else on the staff other than Jeff thought it was alright. Every person other than Brad has distinct and glaring issues with Destiny. There was no double standard at play, where people are only getting mad about Destiny when COD or Mario Kart all did the same thing. No, those games did not outwardly and deeply offend people like Destiny did. Only Jeff loved COD, nobody could really say much bad about it other than its a COD game and the limitations entailed therein.

I also think Patrick made a poor case for Divinity concentrating on the battle system, which is not at all what I feel like most people came away from that game with. It was the tongue-in-cheek humor and being a pretty nice looking version of the type of game people don't make anymore. If more people played it, I would hope they articulate why this game above similar games this year that came out (that nobody talked about) seemed to rub so many people the right way. I don't think that he made a great case. If he did, being the only one who played it wouldn't be enough to keep it off.

@pyrodactyl: What? That's backwards. 6 of 8 of the crew didn't play it that much or didn't enjoy it. Only one did enjoy it, and he even stated that it was deeply flawed. So, no. That's not what Alex should have done. This wasn't just an Alex and Brad list. There were others in that room that agreed with Alex, in fact the majority opinion was his, that then sat there and left him by himself to take an irrational argument that rewarded a broken and boring game with bad business practices regarding DLC. There were other games that a larger portion of the staff liked. All this amounted to was awarding a screaming, loud toddler in a store for being loud and obnoxious.

I think we can definitely all agree that this is one of the worst years in gaming history if a game like Destiny is somehow in the top 10.

From Jeff's tumblr account:

''If people felt more strongly about it, they should have fought harder to keep it off!''

That mean fighting for something to get in its place. That's how lists work. Jeff tought Destiny was better than half the games that made it into the top 10. Brad thought it was better than all of them. It made Drew's top 10. If you add all the personal list together, Destiny still comes up at #10. You clearly hate the game but it wasn't your list. The people on staff who didn't like Destiny didn't feel strongly enough about other bottom list contenders to fight for them the way Brad fought for Destiny so they didn't end up making the cut. Sorry

Again:

Is diablo 3 fun enough to play to get to the part where loot, specs and being good at the game start mattering? No.

Is Destiny fun enough to play to get to the part where loot, specs and being good at the game start mattering? Yes.

Even with his 5 star review, Brad didn't make it to the point where you actually have to think about the stuff you're doing in Diablo 3. So no, diablo 3 isn't fun enough to play to get to the part where loot, specs and being good at the game start mattering.

@pyrodactyl: First, you obviously like Destiny from your other posts, which means if I have some bias because I "clearly hate it" then you do, as well, which for what it is worth, isn't my opinion. So don't presume.

Second, you're incorrect that it'd be number 10 on their list. If you want to look at the mathematical breakdown assigning points to the games, then it is actually 7, and Wolfenstein is 10, a game which was left out.

Third, that doesn't even matter. The point is that this isn't "mathematical games of the year". It is a discussion about them. Brad provided no counters to the arguments about why Destiny was bad, but rather just broadly argued that everyone's opinions for disliking it didn't matter because he liked it. If you want to start comparing lists, then there were a couple games that were on more lists than Destiny (which was on only two).

I'm not going to sit here and argue with someone who very obviously wanted to see it in the list. In fact, I'm pretty sure you and I have disagreed about Destiny in other threads, so this is a circular fight. But what I am saying is that the rest of the staff abandoned Alex in the discussion and left him alone on an island while Brad sat there and didn't make good counter arguments. It isn't about "I WANT MY FAVE ON THE LIST!" but it is about seeing a glaring issue in the quality of discourse provided in the deliberations and calling out poor arguments.

We come to this site because we all, on some level, respect the staff's opinions. Not agree with, but respect. And when an editor gets a game on the list because they were the loudest and ignores all valuable criticisms of the game, while the rest of the staff sits around and appeases them just to end the discussion they are tired of having, it is frustratingly detrimental to the rigor of discussion we come to expect on this site. And it is a frequent, recurring theme year after year that has been pointed out numerous times. And every year, it gets called out.

@mbradley1992: why then, do you have more respect for the non existant opinion of other staff member regarding the rest of the bottom list candidates? Brad made a case. Jeff agreed with him. Others went ''I fucking hate Destiny''.

Like I said before, if they wanted Destiny off, they should have fought harder for Wolfenstein. It's clear Divinity wasn't going to win that fight since Patrick wasn't pationate enough about that game.

Brad was pationate about Destiny. Others didn't care enough about Wolfenstein. The End.

You do realize the only reason Brad got into Destiny end-game in the first place was because of the utterly broken event that handed out gear like candy (which got patched after a few days). He would never ever gotten into the game as much as he did if it wasn't for that, as the grind for light levels (which is all that matters in Destiny) was complete garbage. Getting from 20 to 26-27 in Destiny was by far one of the worst end-game "attunements" I've ever seen in a game.

@pyrodactyl: You're missing my entire point. It isn't just an issue with this year. You are glorifying Brad's argument, simplifying others, and not really paying attention to the fact that this is an issue that transcends just one year's GOTY podcast. You're fixated on sticking up for Destiny and calling out anyone who disagrees. So yeah, it's the end, because we are not really discussing the same thing.

@ares42: Get your facts straight. The part they patched out was the gear you got in the event turning into limitless rare materials. Getting purple chest plates and helmets out of that thing was intended to work exactly how Brad used it. Reduced the grind by half and insured he made it to the end game content he never got to in diablo

Yea This, i sometimes think that's why he finds DOTA so thrilling, he has sunk so much time in.

It was all very strange how it got pushed onto the list. Despite not being a big fan of Alex (not really any need to say that but I guess it hits home my point about Brad) I also didn't like how Brad rounded on him and said you forced 2 games into the top 10 that no one else wanted. Alex did fight his corner with just as much more gusto and more sense. (there were flaws in the argument he didn't defend Jazzpunk to Dan as well as he could have) It was like Destiny got man handled into the list in spite of itself which makes no sense.

Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. Gear in Destiny = materials. Saying that Destiny has a better ride to the end-game than Diablo due to an event that happened for a few days and was quickly changed is sort of inane. It doesn't matter how you twist or turn it, gear in Destiny is irrelevant. Noone has ever been rejected from a party because their gear had the wrong stats. All that matters in that game is your light level, and all you need to achieve that is materials.

You're certainly allowed your argument. But at the end of the day, it isn't our decision to make. This is "their" list. The guys fought for what they believed should be on the GB list, and we have now seen the result. Regardless of whatever you feel, whether they gave up because they were tired... or whatever. This list and its associated discussion was a fun ride to see what games each of them was willing to go to bat for, nothing more in my opinion.

I really don't get why folks take this so seriously. VIDEO GAMES????

OK, I haven't read the whole thread, so if this has come up and has been discussed, I'm sorry for bringing it up again, but...

I'm listening to the deliberations for the second time now, and what immediately stood out to me is that Brad waited after the last round of eliminating games from the list to add Destiny to the list. Alex immediately calls him out, and Brad says: "let's not get ahead of ourselves".

This has nothing to do with his arguments for making the list, but if he had have to defend it for 3 rounds of eliminations I don't think it would have made it...

Brad's smart, is all I'm saying...

He definitely knows how to get what he wants around GOTY. Doesn't always win, but he knows how to play the game.

You joke, but it's true.

I must admit, I didn't watch any GOTY stuff because sometimes things get said that rubs me the wrong way and then I'd go complain about it on the internet or something, and I didn't like doing that. So I stopped.

But... Destiny really did take me hostage. I played so much of that game(26 hours of Destiny in a row, twice.) because I liked what I saw and I was really excited to see more. You unlock all sorts of new modes and eventually the Raid, you get some neat loot and this "train of promises" chugs its way along. But the track is looped, it's not going anywhere. After a point you are doing nothing but playing the same stuff over and over again on the hopes that you'll get better loot and get to use it for something meaningful. But that "meaningful something" is just the same shit you've already played over and over and over again.Once I woke up, I quit the shit out of that game and I've been living happily ever after.I would have to be downright stupid to say I can't see how anyone liked this game, but I can say that it's a testament to how shitty the games were this year that Destiny is a Top 10... you know, I say that, but there are people in this topic who say that there were definitely better games this year than Destiny that just didn't make it, so maybe I'm wrong on that last account.

god damn

lol this thread should just stop. who cares.

@ares42: Destiny is a better ride to the end game because the core shooting and enemy design is incredibly well done. You can be half asleep watching something else and you'll be fine doing that for 40 hours in Diablo. Not very driving or compelling.

And yeah, stats and perks do matter in Destiny for the very end game. People don't get kicked because you can do well if you're good enough to go without certain stat or perks. Your team might suffer but you can still make it. Exotic weapons make an even bigger difference with beasts like hawkmoon, ice breaker and gjallahorn being incredibly fun to shoot and super deadly.

I don't know...You become overleveled so quickly in Destiny. Going back to Earth to do patrols or missions is a joke after you've made it to the moon and so on and so forth. By the end of the game you're overpowered everywhere. Diablo is a billion times better in that regard. It all scales.

People say there are four factions in that game but all I can remember are two because one of them were robots and the other looked like Halo enemies.

Considering Alex made the same type of argument for Jazzpunk, where no one else really thought it could hang in the top ten, it's a bit weird that everyone is dog piling on Brad. Literally have Alex change Jazzpunk with the word Destiny and they made the same argument. Jazzpunk was a game with no substance and a lot of style, whereas Destiny is a game with a lot of substance, pretty decent style, but lacks content. Two sides of the same coin.

Oh man, Brad's arguments were just awful. But whatever. It's dumb but at least it only got 10th I guess. Over much more deserving titles but whatever. Brad.

It's as much his fault as the groups. No one ever really puts up a huge fight. He puts his foot down, makes his argument, and people cave.

Since this thread is back, I will say this:

That part of the podcast took me two days to finish, but by the time they got to the last 45 minutes and determined the final spots, it felt like it didn't matter anymore. It was dumb as hell, but whatever.

I know the last two years haven't been memorable with games, but I kind of wish they do something to shake things up for next year. The arguments this year became mindless.

@pyrodactyl: Noone has ever argued that the shooting in Destiny is bad, and I totally agree that the action in Diablo isn't the most inspired (although, after playing other similar games lately, is still far beyond the competition). But in the same way the systems around the gameplay in Diablo are stellar, while the ones in Destiny are really bad. It all comes down to taste which game you prefer in the end, but arguing that Destiny is as good or better than Diablo based on the loot and grind systems makes absolutely no sense to me.

That's what was the problem with their conversation. Brad kept bringing up things about the loot etc and noone else had played it enough to point out things like how "fun" it is to run circles on the moon for helium coils, how pvp rewards doesn't in any way reward effort or that the best way to get gear was to do menial bounties in under-levelled content.

I think Brad ends up playing games he likes like NORMAL people do when they like something and their job isn't forcing them to move on the to next game to make new content for a website. For that reason I appreciate his passion. It's the same passion my 8 year old would bring to a Titanfall argument, because he plays that game every damn day and loves it. He's also really damn good at it.

Don't worry fellow parents, he's a well adjusted kid and does all his homework and piano practice before he can use game time.

By the way... Titanfall has made some SOLID improvements that are completely lost on these guys simply because they don't play it *now*.

I feel like the arguments *against* Destiny were born on the back of Jeff's passion. When that guy sees a flaw in something, he sure can single it out over... and over... and over... and over...

Nah, there weren't any more deserving titles. Nothing played better than Destiny this year. Wolfenstein was surprising, but if this year wasn't so disappointing overall, you wouldn't see it in any top 10 list. It's not that great. I felt like Destiny would've been bumped in there regardless, because there weren't any serious other games to consider. I was mostly with Jeff: Destiny is probably even better than half of the games that made the list before they even started discussing if Destiny should be put on it.

@zevvion: Nah, Jeff wanted to put it on there to thumb his nose at this year's games. Nothing more.

When the only argument for a game is "...but I had fun with it", it probably doesn't deserve any place in a top ten list for the year. I've had fun with a lot of things that I can admit are bad. But Brad is good at figuratively smushing his face into the carpet and flailing his arms and legs about until he gets his way. The only reason Destiny shows up on any top ten lists is for what people wish the game was, not what it actually is. Wolfenstein is objectively a better game, and it's kind of criminal it didn't make the top ten.

Don't pretend you know what Jeff likes better than he does. He played an extreme amount of Destiny, considering he almost never plays games after he beats them. He's still playing it. He liked it better than most of the games on the list.

@zevvion: He didn't even put it on his own Top 10 and during the group discussion even relented on putting it on GB's Top 10. C'mon, man.

I'm pretty sure Jeff directly said on the GotY podcast that putting Destiny in the top 10 would be a fitting commentary on 2014's lackluster games. I think his exact words were "let's do this dark deed". He also played an extreme amount of WWE Supercard and he admits that game is trash too.

Yeah. He said as much.

@hippie_genocide:

Neither is Mario Kart. I don't see your point. It is the staff's Top 10 list, it has nothing to do with his personal one. In the staff's list, he would rather pick Destiny than half the games on that staff list. He said as much.

Nah, he specifically said that he was not supporting Destiny at 10 as a statement, but that by Destiny being in the top 10 it was a statement in and of itself. It made a statement by being at number 10 - it wasn't a statement in and of itself.

Also I love the GOTY podcast for their entertainment value, which in my opinion is high, and don't ever mind much about what is included. I do remember being kinda pissed when they chose GTA IV over MGS4 though...

@xchairmandrekx: And I'm not saying they are. The staff put it in the top 10 through discussion and this entire thread is dedicated to saying they are wrong in their judgment. I am saying that is wrong. And of course everything is a bias. How are you going to make a list on what the best (playing) game of the year is without your opinion as foundation?

I think overall though 2014 was a very weak year in terms of gaming. If this was released in another year, Destiny would of been left in the dust. The argument for the mechanics show how good the shooting does feel in that game. Personally, It is probably the best "feeling" shooter out to this point. A good question to pose is, if you took the core gameplay mechanics and re implemented it in a new game/world. Do you think it would make a great game? Something that comes to mind with me is put Destiny shooting mechanics in Borderlands and it would be extremely strong.

@zevvion: Saying it's better than some of the games on there isn't the same thing as saying this 3 star game he talks infinite mess about is a top 10 game.

@makinbacon: It doesn't even need another world. I thought the art design was killer. More content and more variety and more levels and more planets and guns and and less false promises and less load times and less currencies and less schedule based content and....more and less of everything.

@spraynardtatum if they never made promises or made the hype...do you think Destiny would of been rated better? I feel like the hype train and them saying what they have killed this game a lot. I think if nothing was said, or no public betas were done things would of been perceived a lot better.

@chilibean_3 GB was good about rating Shadow of Mordor but sites like game spot gave it an 8 and awarded it GOTY. Things like that just make you hate rating systems. Like if it's GOTY, not saying it should be the highest rated game of the year, but GS gave Bayonetta 2 a 10 which in my mind means like "your life will be worse if you don't play this game, once in a life time" type of games.

@makinbacon: I certainly wouldn't of been under the impression that there were going to be more planets and you could go anywhere. It wasn't until after release that we could confirm that Russia was the entirety of Earth. I couldn't believe that the beta and alpha were almost the entirety of earth. I thought there would be an Old America and an Old Australia, and an Old Europe or something.

The game is paper thin and doesn't respect the players time or money. That wouldn't change if they didn't lie about their game. They could have said nothing and the mere fact that Bungie made this game would have lead to the same mass reaction I think. Bungie has shown they can make games that are lightyears ahead of Destiny. It may have the best controls but it is by far the worst game they ever made.

The fact that a game can be on this list but everyone admit that at the least there are 15 hours of crap to get to level 20 is amazing. I can't believe it got on there. Best games of 2014. I don't care if Brad enjoyed his time with it, it doesn't make it a good game. We all have shitty games we like, that is different but to even think that it is on there over some of the other games that were considered, that is just gross and Brad getting all huffy about keeping it on there, man, it is just bad.

I think it's kind of amusing that Destiny was one of the three most disappointing games of the year, but still managed to get in the top ten best games of the year.

It's the same shit every year since I was cast in the role of GOTY heel. Just a ton of confirmation bias, selective omission, bellyaching and good old snark from people who want to blame someone for picks they don't agree with, even though the same scenarios apply to most other people on staff at one point or another (as pointed out several times in the thread).

I've always wondered if you guys read forum threads like these, which are full of snarky and in some cases: outright hateful comments. They can get very ugly so I hoped you didn't. :(

Regarding the arguments you made, I agree with some here that you could've made a much stronger case for Destiny. You mentioned that its combat is good but you never really got into the reasons for it and how it informs your enjoyment of the game. And I say that as a Destiny apologist myself. Personally, I always enjoyed the combat puzzle nature of the Halo games and Destiny felt just like that, but with even more challenges and possible solutions. I would've liked to hear more about why you enjoyed the game so much. And talk more about the game's strengths rather than just try to deflect arguments about its weaknesses.

Anyway, it made for an entertaining listen and I hope threads like these don't deter you guys from having such passionate arguments in the future. I don't want you guys to just agree with each other meekly. This isn't Cspan damn it! It's GB's GOTY - blood must be spilled!