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    Diablo III

    Game » consists of 9 releases. Released May 15, 2012

    Diablo III returns to the world of Sanctuary twenty years after the events of Diablo II with a new generation of heroes that must defeat the demonic threat from Hell.

    Finding Love in the Oddest Places - A Diablo III (and Star Trek Online) Story

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    jadegl

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    Edited By jadegl

    Diablo III is a game that has become one of my favorite ways to waste time. Along with Marvel Heroes, a similar entry into the ARPG category, I find myself going back frequently to kill more monsters and accrue newer and better loot. While Marvel Heroes pushes me to try new characters, I tend to stick with my best character in Diablo III. She is a Demon Hunter named Erin, and she is one awesomely bad-ass lady.

    No, seriously Kormac, stop talking about Eirena already.
    No, seriously Kormac, stop talking about Eirena already.

    One of the things that I love about Erin the DH (Demon Hunter, not designated hitter) is that she is completely self-sufficient. She can jump into a swarm of monsters, each one with 4 or 5 glowing auras of doom, and come out the other side, no worse for the experience. She can shoot arrows of lightning, poison or fire and she can lay down traps that decimate hordes of her foes. And in those moments when her back is against the wall and her life globe is slowly emptying, she can call upon a spirit of vengeance, grow black, inky wings and become a machine of pure, killing hate. I imagine that she laughs when she does this, a cool manic laugh, something that would strike the proper amount of fear into demons and humans alike.

    One person who may not be afraid when those moments come is Kormac, my DH’s steadfast companion. Unlike other Diablo games, Diablo III decided to introduce a follower mechanic. Kormac is one of three that become available as the game progresses. He is the first you will meet and, in my opinion, he is also the most interesting and useful to pal around with. Eirena is an enchantress with a sweet as sugar disposition that tired my DH out within moments. Lyndon is too similar in power set to my DH to be really valuable. Kormac, a Templar, is just the right fit in both abilities and temperament. He draws aggression and heals my DH when she gets in over her head. He can take the point position while my DH tries to snipe from further away. It’s a partnership that just works, like PB and J, Hall and Oates, or David Ortiz and October. And like all great partnerships, once you lock into it, you never want to lose it.

    This is kind of where my story really begins. Kormac and I became as close as two isometrically represented fictitious characters could. I realized after over a hundred hours that I really had an emotional attachment to him. So when he began to reveal an almost boyish crush on Eirena, I really began to hate him. I seethed every time I heard him talk about her smooth skin and golden hair. I could picture my DH scrunching up her nose viciously, narrowing her eyes, and then stabbing another demon in the face to quiet her disappointment. For some reason I really disliked this walking meat shield talking about another woman.

    I thought about this reaction for some time. I mulled it over. The more I thought about it, the more absurd the whole thing seemed. I was honestly feeling a little bit of jealousy, or I rationalized it by saying my DH was the one who had become a green-eyed monster. But aren't my DH and I one and the same you may say? Of course. So I was feeling abandoned and emotionally betrayed, and for no other reason than the developers decided to create a little flavor text to color their world and lend character growth to their creations. They certainly didn't intend for me to fill in the blanks and create a blossoming relationship between these characters as I played, but I did. Kormac had traveled with me and opened up to me about his fears and dreams. I felt like I had earned his devotion. Not her.

    Tovan Khev - Space hunk, enjoys looking at display panels.
    Tovan Khev - Space hunk, enjoys looking at display panels.

    I think the important thing that I learned from this is that romance and emotional attachment can come not just from carefully crafted story lines, say for instance what Bioware has done with the Mass Effect series, but also in the margins of a game that doesn't even really attempt to seriously craft these entanglements. I highly doubt that the creators of Diablo III had any intent to make the player become enamored with Kormac, but it kind of just happened to me. Similarly, I had a moment much the same in Star Trek Online as I played through the Romulan Republic storyline. My captain became interested in her first officer, Tovan Khev. Nothing in the game points to there being anything romantic in this relationship, but with each mission, common enemy and common goal, I felt like there could be more going on behind the scenes. Dialogue and plot that could have no significance but to draw the player along suddenly had more weight and caused a stronger reaction. All because I, as a player, imagined something happening beyond what the game was giving me.

    Both games somehow found a way to make me feel like I was fostering these connections with pretty much unchangeable NPCs. I think a huge part of it is the way that they have you view the characters stories through game play. Kormac goes through an emotional roller-coaster, first being a devout Templar, then slowly realizing that his entire crusade is pretty much a lie. This is only revealed if you, the player, constantly talk to him and get him to say more about his time with the Templar Order. Similarly, Tovan Khev is with your character from the very beginning in Star Trek Online, and the main plot of the Romulan arc also has his search for his lost sister as a prominent focal point. Pair that with a mission where your captain is captured, tortured, and the reassuring voice that helps you through the torture is Tovan himself, and you have a character that is tied closely and, I would argue, intimately to you. Another factor is most likely my own personality and what I bring to the game. I can't claim that these games will make everyone react the same, but I personally find them both to have found an interesting way to inject emotional resonance without having to bludgeon the player over the head with obvious tropes and mechanics.

    In the future, I hope to see game developers exploring these possibilities more fully. Emotions can be created not just by having the player go through an entire romance story, complete with dialogue trees, binary choices, gift giving or whatever other game mechanic they use to try and make you care for their characters. It can also emerge organically from taking two characters through a journey together. They don't have to say "I love you" or embrace passionately like in a movie or television show, but they can fight side by side with plots that focus more on mutual goals and desires. I learned through spending time with these titles that a developer can pull me into their game and if their characters are interesting and charming enough, I can be drawn to them naturally. Kormac and Tovan didn't do anything special, they just helped me in my time of need, in demon haunted halls and the quiet expanse of space. That's more than enough to engender my devotion, even if it's only for as long as I'm living and playing in their worlds.

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    Corevi

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    Diablo 2 had a follower mechanic. Not a particularly good one and none of them were actual characters but it was there.

    Good blog though.

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    jadegl

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    @corruptedevil: I honestly don't remember that at all, even though I played hours upon hours of Diablo II. But I'll take your word for it! It might not have made a big impression on me when I played.

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    MooseyMcMan

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    You've reminded me that Star Trek Online remains the only MMO that I still kinda want to play at some point.

    Also, good blog!

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    Corevi

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    @jadegl said:

    @corruptedevil: I honestly don't remember that at all, even though I played hours upon hours of Diablo II. But I'll take your word for it! It might not have made a big impression on me when I played.

    They were called Hirelings and you had to pay gold for them.

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    FinalDasa

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    This is really interesting. I haven't played a lot of MMOs or ARPGs (getting into Marvel a bit now) so other than games like Mass Effect or KOTOR I've never been left to my own little moments with characters. And even when I do dive into MMOs and the like I'm always skipping the lore and dialogue. I get the main story beats but the urge to read multiple essay length descriptions of story never hit home with me.

    I think there is a lot to be said about the differences of a game's intention and what each individual player walks away with. Each of us come to a game with a unique set of experiences and when so many people put their hands on a game it's inevitable someone will feel or experience something very different.

    Great blog!

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    Yummylee

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    #6  Edited By Yummylee

    Another interesting read! I was all ready to say how I don't think I've ever quite came to that conclusion with a semi-passive character (as in someone who existed more for gameplay purposes than story), but then it hit me... Dragon's Dogma!

    Though I must admit that it wasn't necessarily a romantic relationship, and maybe more of a daughter-father thing... or... maybe sister-brother. I dunno, point is my first main character in that game was a red-headed female (at first; I routinely enjoyed changing up my look) that unintentionally resembled Leliana from Dragon Age. I even used a bow O.o

    Anywhoo, enter my Pawn, Firebeard... Yep. I can't recall what went through my mind when I created that name; probably just came up with it as a joke, like I was trying to think of an intentionally corny and generic medieval fantasy name. In any case, because your Pawn is with you throughout the entire game and literally exists to serve you, I grew surprisingly attached to ole Firebeard. He was a tall guy (but not freakishly tall, as you can certainly make with DD's superb character creator) with a white mullet, yellow eyes, a handsome beard, and knew how to swing a giant broadsword rather well.

    While the Pawns could prove to be annoying pretty often in that game with their sometimes laughably inane and repetitious dialogue (seems all roads lead to gran soren), Firebeard's relentless assistance throughout inevitably began an attachment. Though again, it didn't quite feel... romantic or anything like that, but more like the love you acquire for a life-long friend.

    The ending in particular is what settled the idea that I had grown a fondness for this often idiotic fool. The cutscene that plays shows you falling from the clouds; your Pawn kneels down and then falls himself, screaming as he is seemingly falling to his doom, yet his intention was clear: he was trying to save me, reaching his hand out for mine. Then it's implied that the Pawn has been given true life by morphing with you the player character... or something. The details escape me, but watching my Pawn during that moment gave me a lot of appreciation for Firebeard strangely enough.

    It's not quite the same thing, but I believe it's similar enough that I felt it would be worth sharing! Have you played Dragon's Dogma yourself? I would think so since it seems a game you'd really enjoy. If so, did you also gain a surprisingly strong attachment to your pawn?

    Also, Kormac is easily the best follower. Though while I didn't find any of 'em to be all that interesting, Kormac at least has a Mancunian (Manchester) accent, and there's not many of those to be found in most forms of media. So... it basically all came down to the voice actor :P

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    endaround

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    Have you played SWTOR? I vaguely remember the companions in the game being interesting but that was from the free beta and I haven't gone back.

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    PrimalHorse

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    #8  Edited By PrimalHorse

    A lot of the earlier bioware games were like this, I played through baldurs gate 2, millions of times and I could never leave Minsc behind. Even now I feel like its an old college buddy. Also reminds me a lot of the first dungeon siege. You could have a packmule that carried your loot for you but it could also be killed. I crossed a great icy tundra, guarding him with my life.

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    Karkarov

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    #9  Edited By Karkarov

    @jadegl said:

    One of the things that I love about Erin the DH (Demon Hunter, not designated hitter) is that she is completely self-sufficient.

    Hah! I don't know why precisely (as I am not a baseball fan) but I found this to be a nice turn of phrase. Well played! Personally I like this blog as I have found myself seeing similar things in other games that never clearly spell this stuff out. What could be more natural than two people going into thick and thin and coming out the other side much closer to each other. I think in the end it comes down to the mindset of the roleplayer. A person who truly wants to play as a character (even when that is not being precisely supported) will still inject motivation and ideas into the game and envision their own story beyond what is presented by default.

    Either way great read and I can commiserate with your position! Except that I think Kormac and Cheese there just needs to make a move instead of being a big sissy about it, Eirena will never take him seriously if he doesn't lay it out there!

    @yummylee: Oh god Yummy don't make me go into the meta behind my Dogma pawn and how she is the manifestation of my Arisen's slain sister that he feels guilt over failing to protect from goblin raiders!

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    Aetheldod

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    I wish I could write something smart or interesting to add to your amazing post ... but woa yeah I think this might happened a lot of times tome , but I cant recall exaclty now but yeah I do fall over some npcs or characters even if there is no intended romance or whatever from the developers of the games.

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    pweidman

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    Good read Jade.

    I've really fallen for two of the ME ladies, Jack and Liara, so I get it. But the ME games are designed for the romance part. I've also played way too many hrs of D3 and my main is also a DH. I love that character and the gameplay style, but I guess I have always been so competitve w/that game that I never let the canon and character stuff invade me like that. I did enjoy that there were some cool extra quests that revealed even more back story on all 3 followers in the RoS expo.

    I use the Templar for sc high torments because of the invaluable heals and unkillable relic leg,and yes, he really does play perfectly in concert w/the DH. But if you play hardcore, you'll never forget it when the scoundrel saves your beloved hc character from certain permanent death with a volley from his Buriza, freezing a room long enough for you to escape alive. :-)

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    Hailinel

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    Another interesting piece from you, @jadegl! This is a subject I'm very interested in, as well. Drawing a sense of bonding or romance between two characters that aren't explicitly perceived as being romantic toward each other, or at least feature implied feelings through dialogue, can go a long way in building a personal experience with the game. A lot of such relationships may fall into the realm of headcanon, but feeling such relationships develop is a good sign that, at least for you, the game has done a fine job of drawing its characters and world as something you can be a part of, if only indirectly through your avatar.

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    Slag

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    #13  Edited By Slag

    @jadegl:

    Great blog!

    I think you've nailed an aspect of games like Persona that feel "forced" to me.

    I love the Persona games, but the romance in those games feel really artificial to me, for one because you have multiple scripted ones but also because you can have these relationships with non-party member NPCs that feel like they go zero to 60 because the main character doesn't spend meaningful time nearly to the same extent they do with party members (for obvious reasons). It makes them see a bit like crazy people.

    There's a time component that's missing, from the experience that you do get from the constant companionship of a Diablo even though the relationships are not explicit. Maybe the character's "personality" is just an artifact of RNG, but it always feels to me like they have one. Like maybe they are clutch, or clumsy, or nervous, or have bravado or slow to arrive etc.

    But in a game like Diablo 3, there is just enough characterization that you can start to get attached to these NPC and your mind can start filling in the blanks

    XCOM was another like that for me, I crafted backgrounds and stories (due to my lack of skill) feel awful.

    @yummylee Absolutely man! In my head My Arisen and her childhood best friend who died saving her life.

    Man I loved that game.

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    Marcsman

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    That's why you always stick with the Rogue. You just know he's gonna be trouble.

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    deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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    While it is launched and prodded at during the game, the Locke-Celes romance in Final Fantasy 6 is relatively quiet, but it hooked me more than maybe they thought it would. It's there, but they don't kill you over it. I would keep Locke and Celes in the same party whenever I could. It was also arguably the first time I've played a romance from both sides; you are playing solely as Locke when you initially save Celes from imprisonment. She even quotes Leia with "aren't you a little small to be a soldier?" Later in the game, the party gets split up, and you control Celes, attempting to unite them all. Despite wanting to unite everyone, I especially wanted to find Locke and reunite him and Celes.

    That's a game where you start off where the protagonist is clearly Terra. Then Locke shows up, and for a good part of the second act, he's a co-protagonist with her. Then after the second half of the game starts, Celes is your protagonist, and the emotion attachment I had formed towards her while playing Locke is now me playing as her, acting towards Locke. It's one of the best games examples of how to do an ensemble with no true protagonist I can think of.

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    MarkWahlberg

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    I'm finally playing through DA2 at the moment, which enough has been said about generally, but I'm kind of having a hard time dealing with the game operating as though I already have an emotional investment in the characters. Which isn't to say I think any of the characters are outright bad, just... it feels like there's an assumption that the player is going to immediately go Tumblr-y on their favorite companions, despite them barely doing much of anything in the game. Leaving room for players to make investments in their own way, like you did, might be better - although easier said than done, I suppose.

    That being said, anytime people start talking about emotional investment in game characters, I just start thinking about the Companion Cube and... well.

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    EXTomar

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    #17  Edited By EXTomar

    Side question: Isn't the Demon Hunter and Lydon from Westmarch? I/we/someone should go look that up on the wikia...

    In any event, although I tinkered with several other characters male and female, my most "valuable" one is the female Demon Hunter. If I had to give her any characterization she always seemed to be aloof and interested in "the hunt" instead of personal relationships let alone romance but that is clearly my observation. I'm not even sure that she would even try to have a relationship even with the other nephelem (sp?) she ran around with.

    But this well written article makes me wonder if Blizzard should have gone for this. Especially with the hints before that some "human" are born from angels and demons having kids that are directly spelled out now, that an excellent counter point to refute both the nihilistic drive of both angels and demons than to show that although the nephelem also have power and are destructive they also have something else: compassion for each other.

    I also wonder if Blizzard should have invested more into the Pandemonium section of the expansion with the audio logs for the angel and the demon who defected (but to be fair they were abandoned) and started the whole thing. Or maybe I just haven't found them all yet. If there is something that fits the theme of "finding love in all of the wrong places" that part of Diablo 3 typifies it. :)

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    jadegl

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    @corruptedevil: Ah, that makes sense. I never wanted to spend my gold, so I avoided using that mechanic.

    @mooseymcman: I will say that I make it sound probably way better than it is! But as far as the game goes, it's good value for a free to play game. The ground combat is all sorts of bland, but the space combat is super fun. Plus you get to fly around in the Star Trek universe, so that's very cool. I also like the stories that expand on real episodes / movies. There is a set of missions that builds off of what happened to the Dominion fleet that the Prophets disappeared in the wormhole in DS9. While the game is kind of average overall, it has some really good aspects to it. Since it's FTP it's worth at least a try, IMHO.

    @finaldasa:

    I think there is a lot to be said about the differences of a game's intention and what each individual player walks away with. Each of us come to a game with a unique set of experiences and when so many people put their hands on a game it's inevitable someone will feel or experience something very different.

    This is a big thing I was trying to articulate was that my experience may be totally different from the norm, and that's okay. I know that I tend to daydream, imagine things that could happen, and write entire movies and stories in my head when I'm doing mundane things, like cooking dinner or folding laundry. I don't write them down, though I have considered it, but I keep track of ideas and such. This goes the same for games. I think about the various interactions between characters and what they should do or say or if something made sense in the overall character arc. I even hypothesize about what will happen in the next game if I know there is a sequel coming. I did it after playing Mass Effect, so the dropping of Kaidan in that game made me all kinds of angry, but that's another story!!!!

    It's why I think I like the kind of hands off approach to the story telling that I tried to describe in my blog. I think it feeds the player's imagination without trying to shove them in a certain direction. It's a hard balance though. I think that I do enjoy the games that do that too, I mean I loved the romance story that I had in Mass Effect, for instance. I just appreciate a developer trying to make character interactions a bit more subtle.

    @yummylee: That sounds like it's my kind of thing! I have not played Dragon's Dogma yet, although when I first heard people talking about it, I wanted to. I just had other things to play at the moment and I honestly kind of forgot about going back to it. The Pawn system sounds like something that would totally click with me as a player.

    And I would say that not every situation follows the romance angle. There are times when I feel more like a big sister to characters, or a best friend. I just focused on these two and the more extreme emotional arc that happened. I think it depends on who you play as a character too. For instance, when I played Deus Ex; Human Revolution, I became quite attached to Faridah Malik, but I would say it was more of a big brother / protector attachment than romantic. Of course, this could also be getting into the idea of whether I, playing as a male, took a less romantic approach than I would if I was playing a female and Malik was a male instead. That would take some serious thought and discussion, but it could certainly account for the difference in emotional reaction. Hmm, I'd have to think about that one. :)

    @endaround: Yes I have played it and the romances were interesting, though they followed the Bioware mold of being very "gamey" to me. Still, I think that it is interesting that they tried to put their romance ideas into an MMO game. I think it's really interesting that they tried to marry the two ideas, and I think with more tweaking it could work even better. But it was very cool to see someone attempt it in a game genre that normally eschews it.

    I'll be back later with more replies. I am on lunch break so I can only do so much before I have to get back to work! Plus you've all given me a lot to think about, so I need time to think out some good answers. Thanks duders for reading!

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    MooseyMcMan

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    @jadegl: The main reason I never played it is because of my computer. I've been using the same laptop for the last five years, and it couldn't play games then; it extra can't play them now.

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    FinalDasa

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    @jadegl: This makes me want to reexamine how I've played a lot of games. I daydream and come up with stories all the time throughout my day and I know I've done it with video games. It's so passive though I feel like I don't even notice (or just don't take a mental note of it).

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    sparky_buzzsaw

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    What are these "emotions" you speak of? How do we kill them? With fire? Bazookas?

    I think companions are one of the hardest things to pull of well in terms of storytelling in games. I'm not sure I've ever really had companions or party members that have quite done it for me emotionally, but I think there are a few great smaller arcs sandwiched among the generally big turds.

    Take Final Fantasy VII, for example (by the way, everything I talk about somehow inevitably circles back to Disgaea or Final Fantasy. It's a curse... and a gift. Mostly a curse.). Tifa might be one of the most generically designed characters with some really annoying backstory nonsense, but her obvious unrequited love of Cloud while he thinks of little else but a dead woman allows for a great deal of emotional resonance - or at least it did to teenage me when I first played the game. I may not have liked certain aspects of her character, but I wish more games had a gentle hand with romances like that. I get that I'm reading more into the quality of the script than was actually there, but that's part of what makes it kind of brilliant. Any game that drives you to feel more for the characters than they've laid out on paper is taking some steps in the right direction.

    In a lot of ways, this is what's so disappointing about the second season of The Walking Dead. I'll be light on spoilers, but I'll go ahead and put this whole next paragraph in a big ol' block o' spoilers. The first season did an awesome job of striking a paternal chord in me. I wanted to see Clementine safe. I wanted to see her little band of stragglers make it, if just because this little girl was so attached to them. Clem's relationship with practically all the characters in the second season rings hollow. I get that at this point, she's just trying to survive, but without someone else for the player to care about, it's hard not to view Clem as just a pinball of a character, bouncing from crappy situation to crappy situation. A large part of that could have been assuaged by delving deeper into the friendship she develops (or doesn't) with a particular character, but it's much too late in the season to get me to care about anybody other than Clem at this point. I like her as a main character, but she really needed someone to play off.

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    jadegl

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    @primalhorse: I've actually never played Baldur's Gate or Baldur's gate 2. I've considered buying the enhanced versions through Steam. It sounds like I might add some more games to my list to check out based on what you're saying.

    @karkarov: Thanks very much! I think part of my frustration was also that I kind of wanted Kormac to just stop telling me all about it and go do something about it. :) Kormac and Cheese. hehe

    @aetheldod: Thanks for the read, I appreciate it!

    @pweidman: I have an emotional attachment to the Templar, but the more I read about the Scoundrel, the more I realize that he may be better to enhance my damage dealing in higher difficulties. This is the same problem I had in ME. I always had Kaidan on my team in the first game with Garrus, but I don't think he was the best squad mate to have, probably would have been Wrex. But, I brought him everyhere because he was my boyfriend and I wanted to see if he had any cool things to say when I took him on missions. However, Kaidan is great in the third game, so I had no problems having the old Shepard, Kaidan, Garrus team for that installment. They really worked well together with my Vanguard.

    That's the thing about games that do NPCs well. They can make you sacrifice a more powerful team for just the enjoyment of palling around with a certain combination that you like personally, even if they aren't as powerful.

    @hailinel:I think you put a word to it that I hadn't thought of - headcannon. I think that the best games, or the ones I enjoy playing the most, are one that make me create my own stories with what is presented in the game as the starting point. Sure, I may be later disappointed with what they decide to do, such as the Templar digging another lady, but I think even having a negative emotion means that the developer was successful. Anyway, I really like that term, that works for what I was trying to put into words.

    @slag: I need to play XCOM. I have it on Steam but I haven't sat down with it yet. It's not normally a game genre I like, but I think the added element of having that team that you create and levels would really drawn me in. I think I would be devastated to lose someone, though.

    About forced romances. I don't hate them necessarily, but I hate that they follow such predictable patterns. Meet, talk until you can't talk anymore, do a mission, talk more, maybe give a gift, mission, talk. I know that games are limited in what they can do, but maybe they don't have to tell these stories in the same ways. I think that developers should trust their audience to follow a story that is more ambiguous. Again, not beat you over the head with the relationships. It can be done, many games have been mentioned in addition to what I originally wrote about, so it would be cool to see more different ways to try to tell stories that get the player really involved and emotionally invested beyond just trying to manipulate an NPC. In the end, that's what it can feel like, not that the character loved me but that I was better at manipulating them to get them to react that way. Who cares what they say? What about what the game makes me feel? Hmm. I'm babbling a bit but that's where my mind is going at the moment.

    @brodehouse: I like older Final Fantasy games for this kind of stuff. I played the first game and no characters are really defined. I liked that. I tried to give them character. I also liked what was done in FF4 and 6. I wish they would kind of go back to the more quiet romance stories.

    @markwahlberg: Yeah DA2 was not as successful with relationships as DA:O. I think a lot of it may have had to do with the switch from silent protagonist to full speaking character, but I could be wrong. Plus, I really didn't like many of the party member in DA2, except Varric. Varric was great. Wish I could have romanced him.

    I'll be back with more responses later. Still a lot to digest and think about. Thanks again! :D

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    Karkarov

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    @jadegl: Maybe instead of looking at the BG:EE games wait a bit for Pillars of Eternity. It is hitting this year, probably in December, and is literally meant as a modern spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Even more interesting from the perspective of your article is that the game will have no romances, zip, zilch, zero. That said it should have well done companions who are fleshed out and have real personality, so relationships could be formed and it leaves the door open to you making up your own mind about where these relationships could or should go. Just throwing it out there.

    As far as Dragon's Dogma goes seriously consider picking it up. Very under rated game that is great fun for the RPG lover. It has some very right controls, good exploration, a really subtle story, and some crazy reveals/boss battles at the end. I would say it is one of the best games of the last 5 years.

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    MarkWahlberg

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    @jadegl said:

    @markwahlberg: Yeah DA2 was not as successful with relationships as DA:O. I think a lot of it may have had to do with the switch from silent protagonist to full speaking character, but I could be wrong. Plus, I really didn't like many of the party member in DA2, except Varric. Varric was great. Wish I could have romanced him.

    Indirectly, maybe. So far there just seems to be significantly less dialogue with the companions. There's no 'go spend 5 minutes shooting the shit with Morrigan' option. Which is in itself actually kind of a weird thing to have in a game, but I was into it.

    @jadegl said:

    @slag: I need to play XCOM. I have it on Steam but I haven't sat down with it yet. It's not normally a game genre I like, but I think the added element of having that team that you create and levels would really drawn me in. I think I would be devastated to lose someone, though.

    That part works pretty well in that game. Especially since you can name them and everything (I modeled mine after the X-Men), you do kind of end up developing an investment as you carry your team along. Ain't no shame in reloading just to save that one guy.

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    Hailinel

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    @jadegl said:

    @hailinel:I think you put a word to it that I hadn't thought of - headcannon. I think that the best games, or the ones I enjoy playing the most, are one that make me create my own stories with what is presented in the game as the starting point. Sure, I may be later disappointed with what they decide to do, such as the Templar digging another lady, but I think even having a negative emotion means that the developer was successful. Anyway, I really like that term, that works for what I was trying to put into words.


    I'll be back with more responses later. Still a lot to digest and think about. Thanks again! :D

    It really is a great term. I remember when a friend first used it while talking to me about Kingdom Hearts (I think) of all things, and it really is a term that encompasses exactly what you're talking about. Of course, there's always the risk of having one's headcanon shattered by new developments, but it's a mental picture you can craft for yourself that can both be a product of your enjoyment of a game and something that can increase that enjoyment, itself.

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    Slag

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    @jadegl said:

    @slag: I need to play XCOM. I have it on Steam but I haven't sat down with it yet. It's not normally a game genre I like, but I think the added element of having that team that you create and levels would really drawn me in. I think I would be devastated to lose someone, though.

    About forced romances. I don't hate them necessarily, but I hate that they follow such predictable patterns. Meet, talk until you can't talk anymore, do a mission, talk more, maybe give a gift, mission, talk. I know that games are limited in what they can do, but maybe they don't have to tell these stories in the same ways. I think that developers should trust their audience to follow a story that is more ambiguous. Again, not beat you over the head with the relationships. It can be done, many games have been mentioned in addition to what I originally wrote about, so it would be cool to see more different ways to try to tell stories that get the player really involved and emotionally invested beyond just trying to manipulate an NPC. In the end, that's what it can feel like, not that the character loved me but that I was better at manipulating them to get them to react that way. Who cares what they say? What about what the game makes me feel? Hmm. I'm babbling a bit but that's where my mind is going at the moment.

    I think you would probably like XCOM based off the little I know of you, a lot of folks who don't typically like SRPGs did. It's just a really solid game with the right amount of accessibility and depth for a game like that.

    I the kicker for me was the panic mechanic, it felt even worse than losing a character in XCOM some ways for me when one of my NPCs would get panicked for a couple turns (and then have that state basically permanently affect them later on, almost like a PTSD mechanic from getting injured or seeing a comrade die near them).You don't often see that in a game like that and it helped make their reactions feel a bit more organic. Just enough color to give my "headcanon" material to spin my mental narrative.

    re: forced romances- Oh yeah I agree! Hah you said what I meant to convey, just in a better more complete and evenhanded way.

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    jadegl

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    @extomar: I would agree, the DH is aloof and very wrapped up in her journey for vengeance. I would say that I would like her to realize that life isn't all about murdering demons. I realize this is getting into territory beyond games, but I was thinking about your post for a while and this is what I came to after reflection. I realized that I was ascribing certain story elements to the game that I find enjoyable in other mediums. I'm going to use a term here that people may be sick of, but there are certain romantic tropes that kind of work. Movies tend to have two people that won't work together, maybe the woman is too wrapped up in her work or the guy is, or maybe one is a total slacker and the other has everything together. Either way, the fun in the movie is seeing them realize that they're perfect for each other. Yes, it can be trite if executed poorly, but it good rom-coms it scratches that itch for two disparate elements to come together happily at the end. It's also a trope for a person to be lost in a cause and to be saved from themselves by family or a romantic partner, so that's another element that I was seeing as possibly playing out in the dialogue.

    This is coming from a person (me) who doesn't even really enjoy romantic films all that much. But I enjoy the arc of a person kind of being redeemed by love or at least a connection to someone. I also found the two stories, the Templar and the DH, to be very similar. They could both really lean on each other, and my thought process was that leaning could lead to... something. I do agree with you though that she does seem to be the most cold and most wrapped up in her cause. I just always assume that no matter how lost a person may be, they can always find solace with someone else. But that's assuming that a person would always desire that connection. I know I would, but maybe not everyone would. Again, that would be me bringing the personal into the game.

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    thetimidbirb

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    #28  Edited By thetimidbirb

    @jadegl: I made an account just to reply tothis because oh my god, I felt the Diablo III one in my very bones.

    I do like Eirena. She's like the little sister that the DH lost, and they even talk about that at some point. She's sweet and clueless and I just can't hate her.

    However, when we meet her, and Kormac starts commenting on her in awe, my gut reaction was 'oh you did NOT write this in, devs. Please tell me you didn't.'

    They did. And disappointment honestly hit me like an anvil the more we went along. This was the point where I wished that we had dialogue options to reply with to various things, to maybe flesh out our character more and add their own opinions on things. Because that was the thing that bothered me.

    Obviously, sometimes shite happens and your crush likes someone else, but it would have been nice to translate that bitterness into in-game reactions - because it just decides your character ships it. That's that. I wanted to smack the monitor every time that *wink wink* *nudge nudge* happened on screen. Like, no. Just no. JUST STOP. I want my DH to snap, not encourage the templar to tell Eirena he is free to bang now.

    Maybe we'll have a chance to do so in future games, but for now... frustration reigns.

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