Guys, HERE BE MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR DEVIL MAY CRY.

@NoelVeiga said:

Oh, wow, the amount of bullshit in this thread is...

Yeah I know, right? Fucking sexists getting mad that a woman who is a clear scumbag gets called out on her scumminess.

Alright, first off, DmC IS full of sexist tropes. I didn't need anybody to tell me this, it's pretty obvious. The game's story would have been way better if Kat was a male kid. Much, much better. From the fact that his being sexually abused as a child would have been less expected to the simple notion that Dante caring about the kid wouldn't have been a matter of a love interest, which sort of washes away the notion that Dante identifies with Kat as well as Vergil. It also breaks the fact that Kat seems to be written to be a teenager, but she spends the game in short shorts and a surprisingly skin-tight low cut shirt that make her look well in her twenties.

Oh. Well, alright then.

You say that the game's narrative would've been more resonant if Kat had been a young man instead of a young woman, but how is that the case? Because of her history with abuse, Kat being a young man would have been more shocking? More provocative? It wouldn't have complied with narrative norms of a young woman facing abuse (and eventually overcoming said abuser via hardcore murder) so therefore it's immediately better than what is displayed on screen? I'm trying to follow your logic loops but I'm hitting a ton of speed bumps here. The next one involves Kat being a young woman, so that automatically means Dante views her as a love interest as opposed to a friend. You reach this conclusion based solely on the fact that Kat is a young woman and Dante is a young man, when none of their interactions have set up any possibility of a romance between the two (aside from one corny, stupid joke at the beginning of Mission 2). The game goes out of its way to show that despite the fact Kat is merely human, she's an equal to Dante. From her resolve in the face of certain death to her unbreakable loyalty to her friends, Kat is by and large the emotional core of DmC and her struggle is what winds up resonating with the player because of it. Without Kat being who she is, written the way she is, Dante has absolutely no reason to give a shit about the plight of humanity at the end of the game. It's because of her, through her actions and her resolve, that Dante is finally broken out of his apathy and decides to finally take a stand for something. How is it sexist?

You know what other beloved properties have similar levels of sexist tropes? Pretty much all of them. Does that mean I excuse sexist tropes? Nope, they suck. Does that mean that I dislike or that I'm unable to engage on every product that contains sexist tropes? Thankfully no, as I'd be left with very little in the way of western culture, let alone videogames, to enjoy. Doesn't mean I won't call out the tropes, though.

You say this stuff to rattle your sabre and convince people that you're standing for some vague notion of morality, but you've yet to prove anything. I ask for proof. Hopefully your response won't be "just look around you, maaaan"

DmC is a game about masculinity, narratively. It's a game about a very specifically male teen punk growing out of being an idiot. It makes sense that he'd open the game in a vapid threesome with some strippers, that's not a problem. It makes sense that the females on the demon side would be a subjugated barbie doll used as a child receptacle and a deformed bulimic monster. Those are meant to be the results of the super-male Mundus oppressing the world, and are presented as a critique. That's why it's kind of a shame that Kat and Eva are such damsels in distress, and that no male entity appears as a damsel in distress at any point. It all comes down to Kat, in the end, as she is the archetype for the "good" female, and she's a victim of a bunch of sexist crap in the game as well, when the idea was for her to embody humanity. It's a valid criticism, but it doesn't destroy what is otherwise a very, very good game.

I agree on the first point. DmC is about a young boy becoming a man. Through the examples set before him by his mother and by Kat, he learns how to be a good man and to use the power he has not for petty gain or because he's bored, but to use it responsibly and for the good of others. He even grows to show sympathy for the succubus and her demon spawn because of their genuine oppression at the hands of fucking Satan himself, Mundus. Throughout the game Dante's devil-may-care attitude is repeatedly challenged, and it isn't until he takes the examples set by his mother (who sacrificed her life to protect her children, but that's sexist apparently) and his friend Kat into himself that he finally grows up and becomes a man. If anything, you'd think this narrative is a feminist's wet dream because all it really is, is a couple of women showing a young boy how to be a good person.

And yet it's sexist because... why? Because Kat is arrested and brutally beaten at a critical moment in the plot? Because Dante in his compassion shows her how to be taken alive (so that she might be helped later and not, you know, killed)? Because eventually Kat is rescued and goes on to play an integral part in putting an end to Mundus's reign of terror? Because without Kat to lay the plan out for Dante and Vergil, the two of them would've probably wound up storming the tower and getting killed thus dooming humanity to subjugation and slavery? You argue that the game is sexist solely because there isn't a man that is not held captive at some point in the narrative. I argue that because Dante and Vergil are the two most powerful fucking beings in the story next to Great Satan Mundus that doesn't really jive at all in any narrative context. Kat is the one who is captured because she's the only human being in the cast of characters. She has no special powers and no real means of fighting off twenty SWAT officers who kick the absolute shit out of her. She's not a damsel in distress because such a phrase implies the connotation that she's a prize to be fought for and won. Dante and Vergil strike up a bargain with Mundus to get her back not because she's a prize or because having her will somehow save the world, they do it because she's Dante's friend and he's not a callous prick.

In retrospect, I'm a bit torn on whether Kat as a damaged, frail damsel in distress who is still fundamentally good and talented, is more or less of a problem for me than old DMC's oversexualized but physically powerful Trish. It's genuinely a bit of a wash and, if anything, Ninja Theory's history of female characters in Heavenly Sword and Enslaved makes me more willing to give them a pass on Kat being a mistake rather than a deliberate statement.

Kat is not frail. By resisting torture and god knows what else Mundus got her up to while she was held captive (not to mention the aforementioned shit-kicking she received by the SWAT cops), she shows in the narrative that she's far stronger than Vergil is by sheer strength of character and will. She does not display her strength in a physical sense, but she does in a much more potent one - ideologically, emotionally, with character and integrity. What makes her the perfect line for Dante's connection/understanding of humanity is that, despite her physical weakness and inability to fight back with any real success, she fights nonetheless. She does so because it's right, because the oppression humanity faces is wrong. Kat's a fucking warrior, and in my opinion one of the strongest, best female characters presented in gaming for a good long while.

But hey, that clashes with your personal narrative of "the game's sexist because a woman got kidnapped or some shit" so whatever.

TL;DR the game isn't sexist.

Who in the fuck cares.

*sigh* Wow, what a shocker! Oh no, we must band together and discuss her opinions again. -_-

@Oldirtybearon: Finaly someone who actually played through the game.

Big rounds of aplause to this guy!

I had never even heard of her until that one thread from before. Frankly, I still can't bring myself to care about her at all aside from filing away to not give her money ever. She's got an opinion but I'll be damned if I'm gonna give it the time of day.

Hey, this topic is not flamebait. At all. Of course not.

Edit: As a disclaimer, I'm a feminist (by profession, not just on the Internet), I like DmC and I see why people are mad at Anita Sarkeesian. I can't say I approve of her Kickstarter thing either. But, come on. Do we really need this topic?

I have a female friend who isn't going to play DmC even though she's a fan of these sorts of games because she was grossed out by the austin powers nudity segment with Dante. She felt like they were objectifying him there so she isn't going to play it. I don't know it sounds like Anita played the opening segment and got pissed off by the fact that for the first quarter of that game Dante is a degenerate. Which he is, but that's sort of the point. The whole point of them setting up all those misogynist tropes is for him to follow the monomyth or in other words search for a hidden truth. Lilith is the plot device in the story for Dante's search.

You know, I could make some well reasoned argument as to why one person's opinion on the internet doesn't really mean anything, but let's be honest here: everyone already knows that, but we're so used to having to defend games from someone that we go after the easiest target. With her broad sweeping statements, and no back-up to her words (at least on Twitter), it would be all too easy to just look at her and go "that's nice" and move on. One person saying they don't like a game on Twitter isn't going to change anything. We're so used to having to defend games, we've resorted to turning Anita into a much bigger threat than she really is.

I think it is interesting she voices her opinion, even though I really don't agree with what she has to say (as I said before, it's hard to agree with her when she says things with nothing to back them up). I watched a few of her youtube videos, and found them to be interesting. I may not agree completely with what she says, but she isn't hurting me by saying them. If she believes ICO or DMC are bad games, that shouldn't diminish your enjoyment of them, should it?

Please, can we stop with the whole "she stole money from people" because she didn't. She started a Kickstarter, and people choose to donate to it. It's no different to any other Kickstarter: sometimes you take a gamble, and wind up losing out. She hasn't officially said the videos are not coming, so can we please stop using it as "proof" that she is a horrible person.

Better yet, can we stop making threads about her. She's a person on the internet that just happened to get into the public eye for a brief moment. The only reason anyone still remembers her is because we can't help but keep bringing her up. She voiced an opinion on Twitter; is that really worth making a thread about? Trust me on this, nothing Anita can do will be more damaging to games than how we act whenever she comes up.

@Animasta said:

so do we need to post topics about updates to people's twitters now?

BREAKING NEWS

JEFF IS PLAYING ANTICHAMBER.

breaking news

patrick is playing fire emblem

breaking news

breaking news

breaking news

Yes. I welcome topics about anything.

@Oldirtybearon: the problem with your discussion style is that you are acting as anita does, stating your opinion as fact. I haven't played the game so I have no opinions either way, but the game can certainly be sexist; it's all based on what you think sexism is. Just because you're more articulate than me (though this is because my hands are probably carpal tunnel ridden), or that other guy, doesn't make you any more or less right.

Guys, stop.

My life is dying.

That's... quite a rant you put together there, and it's going to take some work to sift through it, but it's probably worth it once. Probably not worth continuing on one of those back-and-forth online forum discussions, though, so preemptive agreement to disagree here after I say my piece, alright? Of course feel free to respond, but if we start breaking down everything each other says multiple times this will be a huge thread and it's probably not worth it.

Anyway, to it.

@Oldirtybearon said:

Oh. Well, alright then.

You say that the game's narrative would've been more resonant if Kat had been a young man instead of a young woman, but how is that the case? Because of her history with abuse, Kat being a young man would have been more shocking? More provocative? It wouldn't have complied with narrative norms of a young woman facing abuse (and eventually overcoming said abuser via hardcore murder) so therefore it's immediately better than what is displayed on screen? I'm trying to follow your logic loops but I'm hitting a ton of speed bumps here.

Yes, I think that the game being original in its storytelling would have been better. I don't have much more to add to this. It's not just because it would have been less sexist, it's just that it would have been a more unusual, more daring touch. Which in itself speaks of institutionalized sexism, you know, that male child abuse would be more shocking than female child abuse - that's pretty fucked up, but not the game's fault.

The next one involves Kat being a young woman, so that automatically means Dante views her as a love interest as opposed to a friend. You reach this conclusion based solely on the fact that Kat is a young woman and Dante is a young man, when none of their interactions have set up any possibility of a romance between the two (aside from one corny, stupid joke at the beginning of Mission 2).

You may be misremembering things. Dante flirts with Kat every opportunity he has at the start of the game, to which she blushes and looks away. Later, they start to bond after Kat spills the beans about her past and Dante claims to understand her. Dante defends her and is willing to risk everything when Vergil wants to move on (Vergil: "You really care for her, I can see that now"). She is (MASSIVE SPOILERS HERE, SERIOUSLY STOP READING NOW IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THIS) ultimately the reason the two of them fight in a pretty fucking literal "bros before hos" scenario, and when Dante wins and claims to have lost his identity, Kat caresses his face and claims to know who he is.

That's romance writing there. Had she been a boy and caressed Dante in that way we'd be having a whole different conversation... and a waaay more interesting one, artistically speaking.

The game goes out of its way to show that despite the fact Kat is merely human, she's an equal to Dante. From her resolve in the face of certain death to her unbreakable loyalty to her friends, Kat is by and large the emotional core of DmC and her struggle is what winds up resonating with the player because of it. Without Kat being who she is, written the way she is, Dante has absolutely no reason to give a shit about the plight of humanity at the end of the game. It's because of her, through her actions and her resolve, that Dante is finally broken out of his apathy and decides to finally take a stand for something. How is it sexist?

Because she's a hot lady. The one hot lady. She echoes Eva, and Sparda falling for her. She replaces the hot "angel" stripper, and Dante, once he is driven by meeting Kat, actively shuns the stripper when he sees her at the club. The implication is that he cares because he now has an emotional relationship instead of casual sex, not that he cares because he has a friend. The emotional, caring, helpless girl has replaced the hot idiot girl, but Kat still can't fend for herself. When Kat has to escape the cops, Dante has to tell her what to do every step of the way, with the one exception when she sets up an alternate escape route. When she gets captured, Dante stays behind and tells her exactly what to do and how to submit to not get killed. Again, she plays as a metaphor for humanity, but that role would be that much better served by a male kid that played a father-to-son(or daughter) relationship. Because Kat is sexualized, there is a romance implication in Dante's actions, which deflates the religious subtext. Again, good idea, but deflated by the execution.

I agree on the first point. DmC is about a young boy becoming a man. Through the examples set before him by his mother and by Kat, he learns how to be a good man and to use the power he has not for petty gain or because he's bored, but to use it responsibly and for the good of others. He even grows to show sympathy for the succubus and her demon spawn because of their genuine oppression at the hands of fucking Satan himself, Mundus. Throughout the game Dante's devil-may-care attitude is repeatedly challenged, and it isn't until he takes the examples set by his mother (who sacrificed her life to protect her children, but that's sexist apparently) and his friend Kat into himself that he finally grows up and becomes a man. If anything, you'd think this narrative is a feminist's wet dream because all it really is, is a couple of women showing a young boy how to be a good person.

Yeah. His mom and his girlfriend. And both of them do this through passive roles by being murdered, abused or captured. It really is rather screwed up.

I don't even have a problem with this coming of age story having a mom and a girlfriend archetype, but when neither of them have agency things get weird. As I said, I don't think it's intentional, I think the depiction of Kat detracts from the point, which is that she IS doing stuff. That she DOES have agency. Vergil can't see this, Dante can.

But that's not how it plays. Her sexualization and her relationship to Dante break it, and she is never allowed to be mean, or show a release in the way Dante does by acting out and being violent. That's why a male character would have worked better, it would have shown a man being active without being violent and prevented breaking the types of agency (strength versus talent or intelligence) along gender lines.

There was even one opportunity to depict this. The suggestion in the game is that Kat learned about Mundus' lair by being captured there and escaping the torture the way she escaped abuse: by going into Limbo and exploring. This gives her the knowledge to guide Dante and Vergil, right?

So make that playable. Make that a level. Make it at least a cutscene. Make it so when Mundus is forced to trade her back she smiles at herself because she knows she has the key to taking him down. Just that would have gone such a long way, and it's already in the plot!

The next bit you wrote restates a bunch of what I just discussed, but this is interesting:

She's not a damsel in distress because such a phrase implies the connotation that she's a prize to be fought for and won. Dante and Vergil strike up a bargain with Mundus to get her back not because she's a prize or because having her will somehow save the world, they do it because she's Dante's friend and he's not a callous prick.

She is EXACTLY a prize to be fought for and won. She is the reason Dante fights Mundus and then Vergil. Recovering or protecting her is the entire driving force of the second half of the game. Hence, damsel in distress.

Kat is not frail. By resisting torture and god knows what else Mundus got her up to while she was held captive (not to mention the aforementioned shit-kicking she received by the SWAT cops), she shows in the narrative that she's far stronger than Vergil is by sheer strength of character and will. She does not display her strength in a physical sense, but she does in a much more potent one - ideologically, emotionally, with character and integrity. What makes her the perfect line for Dante's connection/understanding of humanity is that, despite her physical weakness and inability to fight back with any real success, she fights nonetheless. She does so because it's right, because the oppression humanity faces is wrong. Kat's a fucking warrior, and in my opinion one of the strongest, best female characters presented in gaming for a good long while.

Again, she is presented as being frail. The visuals, the writing and the execution all show her as a shy, introverted, scared little thing. She is also shown to have coping mechanisms for the misery she can't fight against, namely abandoning her body, but that's about it. She isn't even an ideologue. She's not the one that argues against Vergil for humanity's freedom. Dante ends up voicing her piece. And, again, this wouldn't be a problem if she was just a symbol for humanity at large, but she's also depicted as a pretty, age-appropriate girl that functions as a love interest. It's the role duality that hurts it. I wouldn't rewrite the character, I'd just make her male to remove the sexual implications (or at least make them homoerotic, which would play a lot better towards Vergil's jealousy).

But hey, that clashes with your personal narrative of "the game's sexist because a woman got kidnapped or some shit" so whatever.

I hope I clarified the tropes I'm talking about here and shown that this is not at all my "personal narrative". The visceral reaction you had is a bit weird, since I'm not even claiming to dislike the game and I actively said on my original post that I do like the story. This one element of Kat's depiction is a sticking point because it's clumsy in its use of sexist stereotype. That doesn't mean that the game is some sexist manifesto or anything like that, just that it's worse than it could have been. Less interesting.

It's still a great game, like I said, and it's actually way more cleverly written than it has any right to be. Certainly more than any DMC before it. if it had dared to be entirely about this religious allegory and/or throw a bit more overt homoeroticism in the mix it would have been far more daring, original and interesting, but as it is it's the equivalent of an action movie that is very effective as a popcorn flick but comes just shy of also being a worthwhile story with no qualification. That's... mildly disappointing. Which is why I think this thread is so full of bullshit overreaction on all sides.

I thought we we were past this point, but no somebody gotta kick the hornets nest, somebody always gotta kick the dead horse.. one.. more... time.

She should give the money back and then descend into a black hole so everybody forgets about her.

@Animasta said:

the game can certainly be sexist; it's all based on what you think sexism is.

There is a generally accepted consensus on what sexism is and what behaviours it constitutes. I think I did a reasonably effective job of highlighting a bunch of ways that DmC is in fact, not sexist, but apparently that means I'm being a dick or something.

the problem with your discussion style is that you are acting as anita does, stating your opinion as fact.

I speak with conviction. That is not the same thing as "stating opinion as fact." That other guy presented his interpretation and I found it lacking in examples as well as sound logic. I then presented my own interpretation with examples and (hopefully) sound logic. That is what makes me right and him wrong.

She should have Patrick write for her

@MariachiMacabre said:

Who the fuck gives a shit? I'm perfectly happy to criticize her for not delivering on her Kickstarter but this is in NO WAY related to that. So she doesn't like the game. Is she supposed to just parrot what other reviewers are saying about it? Jeff hates RDR, I don't see anyone attempting to crucify him. From what I've seen of DmC, it looks awesome but attacking her for not liking it is pathetic.

Jeff's hate for RDR is no reason to crucify him. It's a reason to throw your hands up in disbelief.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta said:

the game can certainly be sexist; it's all based on what you think sexism is.

There is a generally accepted consensus on what sexism is and what behaviours it constitutes. I think I did a reasonably effective job of highlighting a bunch of ways that DmC is in fact, not sexist, but apparently that means I'm being a dick or something.

the problem with your discussion style is that you are acting as anita does, stating your opinion as fact.

I speak with conviction. That is not the same thing as "stating opinion as fact." That other guy presented his interpretation and I found it lacking in examples as well as sound logic. I then presented my own interpretation with examples and (hopefully) sound logic. That is what makes me right and him wrong.

sexism is a variable just like anything else. what's worse: rapelay or BMX XXX? just because the latter is better doesn't mean it's okay, after all... and that variable can be as high or low as one wants it to be.

also your 'speaking with conviction' makes it very tiring to argue with you, because you never seem to even attempt to see from the other side. Plenty of others do, including people I largely disagree with, but you do not.

So... you are saying it must be good?

You know, I'm sure her heart is in the right place but I think she's in that situation where 'if you look hard enough you'll find anything everywhere you look'. There's an issue in the mental health field where once a disorder or topic becomes 'trendy' so to speak, because it has become heavily researched or emphasized in literature or media, that disorder or topic will start to show itself in clinical work. Bipolar Disorders in children have been heavily researched over the last 10 years or so and, unsurprisingly, diagnosis of Bipolar Disorders in children have risen over the last 10 years or so. The issue being that when one is exposed to something repeatedly over and over again it'll be on the mind and hard to keep out of one's professional judgement.

Anita has made a career out of finding issues of sexism in every form of media as I have made a career out of diagnosing and helping people overcome mental health problems. One of the hardest parts of my job is realizing when I'm not needed. When it is a good time to not diagnose a disorder and to not fall to pressures from my field. To stay a professional even if it means that I lose a paying client in the process. I'm sure the hardest part of Anita's job is saying when a form of media isn't sexist because, from all I've gathered, she doesn't get much publicity when all is well. Negativity leads to productivity at least it seems to be that way from the outside looking in. Even if sexism is apparent in a piece of media determining its severity would be rather hard as well because saying 'it's sexist but, you know, it's not that bad.' because, again, that isn't as enticing as 'it's mad sexist!!!'.

So where I can fail at holding up my end of the bargain at my job I think I do fairly well overall. I try to think about these issues before I do anything with clients. I don't feel confident that Anita goes through this process. I feel like she is a sensationalist and has been reinforced to be so. I don't blame her. She seems to be doing fairly well producing the content she's made and showing this public persona. I just can't feel confident that what she says has much merit. I don't consider her a credible source of intellectual, reasonable information.

It's too bad because she had all this attention to work with. She had such a great opportunity and it feels like she's just wasting it.

@NoelVeiga said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

Oh. Well, alright then.

You say that the game's narrative would've been more resonant if Kat had been a young man instead of a young woman, but how is that the case? Because of her history with abuse, Kat being a young man would have been more shocking? More provocative? It wouldn't have complied with narrative norms of a young woman facing abuse (and eventually overcoming said abuser via hardcore murder) so therefore it's immediately better than what is displayed on screen? I'm trying to follow your logic loops but I'm hitting a ton of speed bumps here.

Yes, I think that the game being original in its storytelling would have been better. I don't have much more to add to this. It's not just because it would have been less sexist, it's just that it would have been a more unusual, more daring touch. Which in itself speaks of institutionalized sexism, you know, that male child abuse would be more shocking than female child abuse - that's pretty fucked up, but not the game's fault.

Saying it is a crime of hate when something terrible happens to a female in fiction and then glorifying it when it happens to a male is such forward thinking. All in the name of equality.

@makari said:

@NoelVeiga said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

Oh. Well, alright then.

You say that the game's narrative would've been more resonant if Kat had been a young man instead of a young woman, but how is that the case? Because of her history with abuse, Kat being a young man would have been more shocking? More provocative? It wouldn't have complied with narrative norms of a young woman facing abuse (and eventually overcoming said abuser via hardcore murder) so therefore it's immediately better than what is displayed on screen? I'm trying to follow your logic loops but I'm hitting a ton of speed bumps here.

Yes, I think that the game being original in its storytelling would have been better. I don't have much more to add to this. It's not just because it would have been less sexist, it's just that it would have been a more unusual, more daring touch. Which in itself speaks of institutionalized sexism, you know, that male child abuse would be more shocking than female child abuse - that's pretty fucked up, but not the game's fault.

Saying it is a crime of hate when something terrible happens to a female in fiction and then glorifying it when it happens to a male is such forward thinking. All in the name of equality.

That'd be really poignant if it were even close to anything being discussed here.

Let's see if I can salvage this meaninglessness of a post. I came up with a perfect example of other properties that make an annoying use of sexist tropes but are still beloved by myself and others.

Die Hard.

Holy shit, Die Hard is really sexist. Way more than DmC. I love Die Hard, it's one of my favourite movies ever. But man, that entire film is about telling strong, powerful modern women that they'd be sorry to ditch their crappy-ass husbands if they ever needed somebody to shoot down an invading troupe of German terrorists.

But it's still a frickin' awesome film. I love it. Sexist, though.

@Animasta said:

also your 'speaking with conviction' makes it very tiring to argue with you, because you never seem to even attempt to see from the other side. Plenty of others do, including people I largely disagree with, but you do not.

Your thinking is what's killing arguments and debate. It's the post-modernist idea that everything is fluid and there is no such thing as an absolute. It's all a matter of perspective and blah blah blah blah. I don't want to argue why postmodernism is a cancer that needs to excised from the public zeitgeist, but if you want to find out for yourself I suggest using Google.

sexism is a variable just like anything else. what's worse: rapelay or BMX XXX? just because the latter is better doesn't mean it's okay, after all... and that variable can be as high or low as one wants it to be.

I'm not sure what you were asking about Rapelay and BMX XXX, so I'll comment on the piece of text I found most alarming:

that variable can be as high or low as one wants it to be.

You're presenting an argument in which you are free to determine the rules as well as the definitions we're arguing under. I told you there is a general consensus as to what sexism is, whether or not you agree with it is your prerogative and does not make your viewpoint valid simply because it's your viewpoint. In fact, I'd argue that your perspective's worth is lessened because you're arguing from a perspective that shifts and changes constantly. It is, as you said "as high or as low as one wants it to be" which of course means "if you make good points that debunk my argument I'm just going to change the definition of our argument nyah nyah."

You're not a stupid person. You're not a bad person. However, you've gotten it drilled into your head somewhere that people's feelings are somehow worth consideration in arguments/debates. They're not. What matters is the examples and the logic they present in their argument. You can't base an argument on "I feel," is my point. That's something I've noticed you tend to do quite a bit.

Hopefully this made sense to you, as I feel you're worth arguing with, even if you find me "tiresome."

@Xymox said:

If we really wanna follow up on this story, we should gather 8 women from the industry and ask for their opinion about DmC.

That's it everyone, this thread has peaked.

@Oldirtybearon: I think feelings are absolutely valid in some debates, such as this one. It's ultimately subjective whether you find something sexist or not, regardless of any dictionary definition of sexism, and I don't think you can respond to "well I think this game is sexist" to "no you are wrong", because it's his thought/opinion and not a grounded from stone. If we were having a debate about logical details that's fine, but he never factored in any actual definition of sexism into his opinion.

I mean, there's no difference in saying "I'm of the opinion that gays shouldn't marry" to "gays shouldn't marry", but there's a difference when saying "I think this game is sexist" to "this game is sexist". That's because there's only two factors in the first statement; yes/no. Someone can say this game is very sexist, this game is mildly sexist, there's some iffy stuff but nothing too bad, to nope it is not.

I guess I don't know, I'm stopping because I am mad tired so later?

@NoelVeiga: You're a pretty dedicated troll to write all that out and I have to congratulate you on that. Not since that guy who compared every game to Shogun 2 and brough in Modern Warfare 2 as an example of the downfall to gaming have I seen such elaborate and long-winded trolling.

@DeathbyYeti said:

She should have Patrick write for her

Or maybe Giant Bomb should hire her so she and Patrick can reunite as The Wonder Twins.

Impressive. I wouldn't have guessed after my post on the first page that this thread would have ballooned up to page 9. I think the most surprising thing is that criticism about DmC has moved away from discussing the combat system and mocking the imaginary "entitled gamer" about supposed white hair complaints into something totally left field.

I know people are tired of the feminism stuff, but I was really getting tired of people shitting on the DMC franchise and claiming it was dead and buried. The worst part was this idea that anyone criticizing the game needed to shut up and be happy that anything was being made related to the series.

I would like to thank the lady at the center of this for changing the conversation for this game.

im only on page 2 but people are already arguing about arguing

Anita Sarkeesian has made it her job to hate and get offended by everything, so who gives a fuck what she thinks about anything?

@NoelVeiga said:

Probably not worth continuing on one of those back-and-forth online forum discussions, though, so preemptive agreement to disagree here after I say my piece, alright? Of course feel free to respond, but if we start breaking down everything each other says multiple times this will be a huge thread and it's probably not worth it.

That's a shame, I've read pretty much the entire thread and your conversation was the only worthwhile thing in it.

As a fan of the game, thanks! I feel like I learned a lot.

*chortles*

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

@Demoskinos said:

@LooseChange

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

Yep. Its past the point of ridiculous. Its the new hip issue! Seriously at the drop of a hat the sexism and misogyny words get thrown around anymore.

you ever think the way to approach it is that the media is finally waking up to these issues?

too many 4chan users on this site throwing around words like "white knight". try growing out of it like most people did at 15

@posh said:

@Demoskinos said:

@LooseChange

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

Yep. Its past the point of ridiculous. Its the new hip issue! Seriously at the drop of a hat the sexism and misogyny words get thrown around anymore.

you ever think the way to approach it is that the media is finally waking up to these issues?

too many 4chan users on this site throwing around words like "white knight". try growing out of it like most people did at 15

So the new Dante in the DmC game hates women?

Alright let's pack it up and retire, fiction is no longer allowed to contain feminists who are so into it that they become blinded by it and get referred to as feminazis, fiction is no longer allowed to contain violence towards women, and rape is also disallowed.

Or if it was Swedish media: All the above while flat out denying the existence of violence towards men, rape of men, discrimination of men and how all men are viewed as potential rapists and pedophiles, giving all the help and care in the world to females from birth to grave while the troubled boys in school end up flunking and taking a nap on the train tracks if they take the quick route out of it.

@Demoskinos said:

@LooseChange

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

Yep. Its past the point of ridiculous. Its the new hip issue! Seriously at the drop of a hat the sexism and misogyny words get thrown around anymore.

you ever think the way to approach it is that the media is finally waking up to these issues?

too many 4chan users on this site throwing around words like "white knight". try growing out of it like most people did at 15

This is getting really stupid.

@LooseChange said:

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

That's what it amounts to for me.

I use to word white knight as more a term for people who blindly defend something rather than something to cover everybody who defends something. Due to the way all feminist arguments involve nothing but extremes the term applies to most people who defend her.

Some of you are so easily offended by the term I wonder how you even operate in the real word without getting upset over everything.

Reviewing games from a feminist point of view is the same as writing a review of a restaurant from a communist point of view. And no, I didn't mean to equate feminism with communism. I just think that using political frames in reviews is stupid.

I am also surprised by how popular this thread is.

Disappointed to see so many people see the word "feminist" and become immediately and arrogantly defensive.  
 
The game is filled with tired tropes that don't put women in the best light. The two biggest female characters are, at many points, overpowered and rendered helpless, essentially used as pawns at a certain point in the game. The purpose for one female is purely to make a baby. Don't forget that the game literally opens with Dante heading to the club and taking some scantily clad women home for a one nighter, as if that is they sole object of their desire.  
 
Now, I don't believe the game is written by malicious misogynists, but these are tropes that should be given more attention and not just written off by a defensive, childish community. Stop and think, no one is trying to take anything away from you. A large and important contingent of the population only wants to be treated with respect. Imagine that.

Actually I would say that Dante is one of few male heroes who is almost created more as an object of overt feminine lust than of embodiments of masculine virtues. They didn't spend all the work getting his cheekbones just the right amount of heroin chic, they don't spend all the time focusing on his eyes and his sneer, they didn't do all that for him to specifically appeal to heteronormative males. I thought it would be far in the future until the feminists argued that the most metrosexual game protagonist out there is there to oppress women.

In the same way that everything about Hotline Miami feels like pure drugs, everything in DmC is pure sex. It's not that it's about sex, it's that sex is the language it tells its story with. And I love it, in a medium where sex always seems weirdly sterile.

As for Anita, she classifies anything that doesn't appeal to her and especially anything that uses sexuality in its telling as misogynistic. She doesn't really care about the definitions of either misogyny or sexism, she just knows if she shouts 'bigot' loud enough everyone will shut up and do what she wants. And what she wants is any display of hetero male sexuality censored from her view, because any display of it 'keeps women down'.

But what she does regarding trying to argue fiction is probably third on the things that actually matter to anyone who cares about equality. Fiction and how the sexes are portrayed within is dead last in the things that need activism. Then it's general social interactivity, which itself is difficult to prescribe and requires exertion of soft power. The most important thing is law, and that it not differentiate any citizen based on their gender, their race, their religion. It has mostly failed in this regard.

@LooseChange said:

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

She has nothing to do with this industry. By the way how are her videos she promised like a year ago?

Maybe she should do these instead of playing games.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta said:

the game can certainly be sexist; it's all based on what you think sexism is.

There is a generally accepted consensus on what sexism is and what behaviours it constitutes. I think I did a reasonably effective job of highlighting a bunch of ways that DmC is in fact, not sexist, but apparently that means I'm being a dick or something.

the problem with your discussion style is that you are acting as anita does, stating your opinion as fact.

I speak with conviction. That is not the same thing as "stating opinion as fact." That other guy presented his interpretation and I found it lacking in examples as well as sound logic. I then presented my own interpretation with examples and (hopefully) sound logic. That is what makes me right and him wrong.

sexism is a variable just like anything else. what's worse: rapelay or BMX XXX? just because the latter is better doesn't mean it's okay, after all... and that variable can be as high or low as one wants it to be.

also your 'speaking with conviction' makes it very tiring to argue with you, because you never seem to even attempt to see from the other side. Plenty of others do, including people I largely disagree with, but you do not.

@algertman said:

I am also surprised by how popular this thread is.

Really? These types of discussions have been all the rage on Giantbomb for a good long while now...it's FANTASTIC!

Anyway, is there a word for not being misogynistic at all, but still totally wanting to punch Anita Sarkeesian in the dick?

@Brodehouse said:

@Animasta

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Animasta said:

the game can certainly be sexist; it's all based on what you think sexism is.

There is a generally accepted consensus on what sexism is and what behaviours it constitutes. I think I did a reasonably effective job of highlighting a bunch of ways that DmC is in fact, not sexist, but apparently that means I'm being a dick or something.

the problem with your discussion style is that you are acting as anita does, stating your opinion as fact.

I speak with conviction. That is not the same thing as "stating opinion as fact." That other guy presented his interpretation and I found it lacking in examples as well as sound logic. I then presented my own interpretation with examples and (hopefully) sound logic. That is what makes me right and him wrong.

sexism is a variable just like anything else. what's worse: rapelay or BMX XXX? just because the latter is better doesn't mean it's okay, after all... and that variable can be as high or low as one wants it to be.

also your 'speaking with conviction' makes it very tiring to argue with you, because you never seem to even attempt to see from the other side. Plenty of others do, including people I largely disagree with, but you do not.

Animasta, sexism is not 'a variable'. It is 'the discrimination or generalization of a group based on its gender'. Racism is also not 'a variable'. In order to prove something is sexist, it must fit the criteria of sexism; discrimination or generalization solely based on gender. In the real world, to prove something you need relevant evidence and to connect it logically. "How the other side feels" is not important, what's important is the evidence presented, and whether or not it actually fits the criteria. "I feel this is sexist so therefore it is" is as meaningful as "I feel the sun rotates around the earth so therefore it is". It's not rational, logical thinking, it's emotional dogma.

so basically almost every game. because men even look the same in these games.