@Milkman said:

@mrfluke said:

fucking exactly.

its the internet, and this is giantbomb a website thats about fun (jeff said this a majority of times), a majority of us (id like to think its a majority of us based on the rage on those stories) use this site as a form of "escapism" and come here for the content, we dont wanna hear about this stuff.

if this is such a problem for women, then they need to actually do something rather than posting on the internet

This thread is stupid and probably shouldn't exist but I can not stand this mentality of "this website is suppose to be FUN so everyone shut up with this SERIOUS stuff." That's horse shit. No one's taking away your fun. If you don't want "serious stuff", then don't click on the serious stuff. The articles wouldn't go on the site if the rest of the guys didn't want to it to so don't try to act like this is flying in the face of Jeff's ideals or some shit. This site is what it is and I really doubt that I have any interest in catering to anyone who can't take one piece of "serious" content so deal with it. There's no reason why we can't play Beverly Hills Cop and also have a discussion about sexism in games.

k cool, and im dealing with it by voicing my opinion so u deal with that , in the context of a site thats community based and is about building connections with your audience (it doesnt take 2 and 2 to figure out that the attach rate on the premium subscription members is why this site got bought by cbsi and them showing this attach rate to the business people i would think is how they get funding)

id say my opinion means something (feel free to disagree as its your opinion) ., if reading peoples opinions gets you so riled up, then dont click on threads like this, you're injecting your own poison.

ill agree that theres no problem with having discussions about both while having fun, its just that fun appeal is what a lot of us cling to and whats got a lot of us here in the first place, and this story makes people afraid that giantbomb is going in a serious direction, plain and simple.

my thing is the "serious stuff" that gets posted here in the vein of the sexism stories is, what the fuck has it done?, just based on the comments threads on the sexism stories, what has gotten done? what has been accomplished? was there a positive outcome? imo the majority of the internet has made up their mind and they shrug this issue off. to me all this has done is just add fuel to the fire, everyone hates each other even more now. and patricks hate group has increased ten fold.

how about getting some big names on board, like get like david jaffe, ken levine, jason rubin, the penny arcade guys to give their opinions. get like the people that make games like dead or alive, tomb raider to voice about this stuff, get like the designer of chicks like miranda and bayonetta to voice about this stuff. how about just going out on the street filming with an iphone asking regular folks about this statue and what they think ?( say that your from giantbomb, a cbsi property) so much better ways that this could have been handled that would have been more balanced and drew less assholes out.

i believe in being proactive and actually doing something, if i had patricks resources and i believed in this cause enough, id get something more meaningful done.

@mrfluke: I'm not sure how one article about a serious subject would mean that the site is going in a serious direction. I don't see how you could look at everything else that went up on the site last week and think that this website is at all changing. You act like it's been an onslaught of articles from Patrick when in actuality, it's been two. Two articles and people are losing their shit over their fun being taken away. Two articles they could have ignored if they had no interest in them. As for nothing "good" coming out of it, that's the community's fault, not Patrick's. The second article (which I enjoyed reading, by the way so there's your good) featured virtually none of his own opinion so I'm not sure how its his fault that the comments became a cesspool. If the reaction from the internet is to "shrug off the issue" then he absolutely should be writing more. Because "shrugging off" an industry full of sexism (even if you don't agree with the torso thing, which is fine) is not an acceptable response. In the end, Giant Bomb is going to produce the content that they want to produce. That's pretty much exactly what they've done since day one. And if you don't like that Patrick may occasionally write about a subject that isn't necessarily fun then I'm sorry, I guess.

@AssInAss said:

@LooseChange said:

@posh said:

@Demoskinos said:

@LooseChange

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

Yep. Its past the point of ridiculous. Its the new hip issue! Seriously at the drop of a hat the sexism and misogyny words get thrown around anymore.

you ever think the way to approach it is that the media is finally waking up to these issues?

too many 4chan users on this site throwing around words like "white knight". try growing out of it like most people did at 15

So the new Dante in the DmC game hates women?

Did you even read the tweet? She never mentions misogyny, which is different from sexism.

I was referring to a later tweet she posted.

@LooseChange:

But there are also no sexist tropes in there. You have demons and you have Kat and none of them are really sexist. You could call these prostitutes sexist but these woman are only doing their job. I think to her everyone who is wearing anything that shows skin is sexist.

DmC is probably one of the most crass games I have played. However, I'm almost half way through and I don't have any idea what she's talking about.

@thabigred said:

@algertman said:

@Sjosz said:

@algertman: She's entitled to her opinion.

It's not an opinion she raised over 150k over kickstarter and has yet to put out one video.

I don't have a problem with someone making money from dumb people, that said I think she sort of looking at this at too narrow a glass. The misogyny exists as a plot device at least with Dante, and by the end of the game there's resolution that maybe being a degenerate piece of shit isn't the way for him to continue living his life.

For a story about Angels and fucking Demons it handles it really well. It could have kept being what that opening section was and never winked one iota.

Nowhere in the game (I've only played the first 5 hours) is Dante misogynistic. Hell, even the demons aren't misogynistic, they appear to hate men and women rather equally. Despite what Anita Sarkeesian may want us to believe, drinking, doing drugs and having sex with two consenting adults is not misogyny. The portrayal of women who want to have sex with Dante is not sexist. Kat being a rather weak character who relies on Dante and Vergil, while fitting in with a heteronormative standard for 'what women are', is not portrayed as anything more than that character.

It's one of the worst things that Anita Sarkeesian and her ilk have brought, is the concept that a character who is a woman is representative of all women. To see how completely batshit this is, let's say that Kyle Ryder is all men. Devil May Cry apparently thinks all men want sex, violence, the subjugation of the human race, are completely without any positive qualities, murder young mothers in front of their children and are also responsible for the collapse of the economy. See how nuts that is?

Sometimes she's 2 Feminist 2 Frequent.

@AssInAss said:

@LooseChange said:

@posh said:

@Demoskinos said:

@LooseChange

Am I the only who feels like the industry just discovered the word "misogyny" like two years ago and are just throwing out FOR EVERYTHING?

Yep. Its past the point of ridiculous. Its the new hip issue! Seriously at the drop of a hat the sexism and misogyny words get thrown around anymore.

you ever think the way to approach it is that the media is finally waking up to these issues?

too many 4chan users on this site throwing around words like "white knight". try growing out of it like most people did at 15

So the new Dante in the DmC game hates women?

Did you even read the tweet? She never mentions misogyny, which is different from sexism.

@Sergio: She referred to sexism in her tweet, so she was indeed talking about misogyny...

@Brodehouse: I think Anita is looking at this through too tight a lense but I don't agree with you either. Being a degenerative doesn't give you free license to be degenerative generally, but with that said I think they pulled it off. They told a much better story than they had any business doing.

@thabigred said:

@Brodehouse: I think Anita is looking at this through too tight a lense but I don't agree with you either. Being a degenerative doesn't give you free license to be degenerative generally, but with that said I think they pulled it off. They told a much better story than they had any business doing.

Sorry, what? Doing drugs and having consensual sex is not misogyny. Nothing Dante does in those first five hours is misogynistic or sexist.

People can like or hate anything they want for whatever reasons they want. I really don't see the point in getting worked up about it.

@LKPOWER said:

People can like or hate anything they want for whatever reasons they want. I really don't see the point in getting worked up about it.

So you are ok with someone scamming people?

@AssInAss said:

What does she do?Aside from the controversy, of course.

@shiptoncraig said:

Sometimes she's 2 Feminist 2 Frequent.

I have to admit that this gave me a giggle.

Hey Patrick!

@Brodehouse: Dante is most certainly a degenerate in the first section of that game, which is what I said. I never said it was misogyny.

@thabigred said:

@Sergio: She referred to sexism in her tweet, so she was indeed talking about misogyny...

The formatting of these forums doesn't display it correctly, but I replied to the comment that she wasn't talking about misogyny with her tweet where she is calling out "blatant misogyny" in the game. Sexism itself is not misogyny as much as she would like to use the two interchangeably.

Congrats GiantBomb. You are better than NeoGAF about this topic. A similar thread just made it to page 4 before it got locked.

Having sexist characters in your story doesn't make your story sexist.

@thabigred said:

@Brodehouse: Dante is most certainly a degenerate in the first section of that game, which is what I said. I never said it was misogyny.

My original quoting of you was in response to this.

The misogyny exists as a plot device at least with Dante, and by the end of the game there's resolution that maybe being a degenerate piece of shit isn't the way for him to continue living his life.

So now I'm very confused.

@Sergio said:

@thabigred said:

@Sergio: She referred to sexism in her tweet, so she was indeed talking about misogyny...

The formatting of these forums doesn't display it correctly, but I replied to the comment that she wasn't talking about misogyny with her tweet where she is calling out "blatant misogyny" in the game. Sexism itself is not misogyny as much as she would like to use the two interchangeably.

And Sergio is right in this case. As I stated earlier.

Misogyny does necessitate the hatred of women. That's what the word means. Sexism is discrimination or generalization of a gender, which may or may not include misogyny (fear and hatred thereof).
Misandry is the fear or hatred of men, which is sexist. Other things may be sexist against men, but not misandrist.
One circle inside a larger circle. All cheaters are fuckheads, but not all fuckheads are cheaters.

All misogyny is sexism. Not all sexism (directed at women) is misogyny.

Of course this much doesn't really matter to Ms. Sarkeesian, since she's not interested in what the words actually mean, what she enjoys is their disruptive and emotional power.

@Nettacki said:

I think she might have a bit of a case if what @NoelVeiga said was true. From what I've read and seen, there's more than a few things in the game that could be taken as sexist, especially in regards to its portrayal of Kat.

Whats wrong with kat? Becasue she was abused as a child? I think Kat character is fine for that she is. She was totally broken back than. I really can not understand these critics. Not every woman needs to be strong especially not after what Kat has experienced.

Definitely thread worthy.

Who fucking cares? Why post this?

@Darji said:

@Nettacki said:

I think she might have a bit of a case if what @NoelVeiga said was true. From what I've read and seen, there's more than a few things in the game that could be taken as sexist, especially in regards to its portrayal of Kat.

Whats wrong with kat? Becasue she was abused as a child? I think Kat character is fine for that she is. She was totally broken back than. I really can not understand these critics. Not every woman needs to be strong especially not after what Kat has experienced.

What's more worth considering is the fallacy of the entire idea that Kat is representative of her entire gender. As if GIRL is the only data point under the Kat header. This is something that is constantly being levied upon female characters, that by nature of being both women and fictional, they thusly are representative of all women.

Consider Kat's father. He's a man. He's also a child rapist. Under the same auspice that says Kat is representative of women, we must therefore conclude that Kat's father is representative of all men. If Kat's relatively ineffectual personality is the game commenting on women, then it stands to reason that Kat's father's lust for child rape is a comment on all men. In other words, DmC is calling all men child rapists. Time to get on Twitter.

@Brodehouse said:

@Darji said:

@Nettacki said:

I think she might have a bit of a case if what @NoelVeiga said was true. From what I've read and seen, there's more than a few things in the game that could be taken as sexist, especially in regards to its portrayal of Kat.

Whats wrong with kat? Becasue she was abused as a child? I think Kat character is fine for that she is. She was totally broken back than. I really can not understand these critics. Not every woman needs to be strong especially not after what Kat has experienced.

What's more worth considering is the fallacy of the entire idea that Kat is representative of her entire gender. As if GIRL is the only data point under the Kat header. This is something that is constantly being levied upon female characters, that by nature of being both women and fictional, they thusly are representative of all women.

Consider Kat's father. He's a man. He's also a child rapist. Under the same auspice that says Kat is representative of women, we must therefore conclude that Kat's father is representative of all men. If Kat's relatively ineffectual personality is the game commenting on women, then it stands to reason that Kat's father's lust for child rape is a comment on all men. In other words, DmC is calling all men child rapists. Time to get on Twitter.

YES. YES. YES. Exactly this. I can't stand that every single female character "apparently" is representative of there entire gender. There are some stories where the girl needs saving equally there are stories where there are women saving the men. It drives me nuts that some people can not see this. This entire sexism debate has turned from actually being about anything to people like Anita Sarkeesian calling out any female character that they personally can't identify with as sexist. Its utter bullshit.

@Demoskinos: @Brodehouse: @Darji: Alright, maybe sexist isn't the right word for it. But I definitely don't see her as a very deep or strong character. I think Ataribomb explained it better than I could in his user review.

@Brodehouse said:

@thabigred said:

@Brodehouse: I think Anita is looking at this through too tight a lense but I don't agree with you either. Being a degenerative doesn't give you free license to be degenerative generally, but with that said I think they pulled it off. They told a much better story than they had any business doing.

Sorry, what? Doing drugs and having consensual sex is not misogyny. Nothing Dante does in those first five hours is misogynistic or sexist.

I've beaten the game and even went through a quarter of it on a higher difficulty and, to no ones real surprise, nothing Dante ever does is either misogynistic or evenly slightly sexist. You might even go as far as to say that his relationship with Kat is completely casual from beginning to end. They barely make any physical contact and beyond one flirty line, said more for Vergils benefit than some sexist need to sexually oppress Kat, their dialog also never strays into the realm of the romantic.

Of course sometimes people see what they want to see. One might argue Dante is a degenerate, louse and he "saves the world" because he gets tired of being a degenerate. Another person might view Dante as a troubled youth with a fucked up past that due to harsh experiences has lost direction in life. In as much Vergil and Kat serve as anchor to help him find himself and realize that he could be doing so much more. Either way it's foolish to read into a video game characters entire past based on a single intro cutscene.

14 pages over a tweet. Fuck this place.

@Video_Game_King said:

@AssInAss said:

What does she do?Aside from the controversy, of course.

I'm guessing nothing to do with Final Fanasy 8 music? She has a website, look it up.

I dunno, it's kinda hard to take someone who holds Whedon female protagonists in high esteem and also has Janeway on the side of their Twitter seriously.

@AssInAss said:

I'm guessing nothing to do with Final Fanasy 8 music?

I can't help it if I want to set the mood.

@Colourful_Hippie said:

14 pages over a tweet. Fuck this place.

She stole money. I'd be more upset the gaming press refuse to cover this.

@DonChipotle: What's wrong with female protagonists written by Joss Whedon?

@Nettacki said:

@DonChipotle: What's wrong with female protagonists written by Joss Whedon?

The same thing that is wrong with male protagonists written by Joss Whedon.

They are written by Joss Whedon.

@Nettacki: They suck

@Nettacki said:

@Demoskinos: @Brodehouse: @Darji: Alright, maybe sexist isn't the right word for it. But I definitely don't see her as a very deep or strong character. I think Ataribomb explained it better than I could in his user review.

Granted. There are male characters in DmC that are pretty thin (Phineas springs to mind, and Sparda-Eva seem pretty undeveloped which is sad). But in order to be filled with 'repugnant sexism', the game needs to either discriminate or generalize an entire gender. I think this is why people get frustrated with Anita Sarkeesian. In order to make an objective claim, you need to show evidence and present a case; Anita merely presents her offense. When she does present evidence, it often fails to qualify as either discriminatory or as a generalization. And by disabling comments (and censoring and cherry-picking what she acknowledges), she avoids her points being subject to the same scrutiny as any argument in the free market of ideas. It's not an argument or a debate, it's a dogmatic lecture. If I wanted a dogmatic lecture that involved emotional rhetoric instead of logical evidence, bizarre appeals to authority and self-righteous offense, I would go to a church or mosque.

Ron Gilbert ‏grumpygamer

If you're stuck on a puzzle in The Cave, take a break. Adventure games are meant to be savored like a fine meal, not eaten like junk food.

Gee thanks Ron.

@Brodehouse: Oh don't worry, I agree with what you said. I'm not a particularly big fan of what she does and how she essentially censors her own comment section to prevent anyone with a different opinion to speak their minds. I'm just pointing out the possible spots where some people may find sexism that may or may not exist in this game.

@Nettacki said:

@Demoskinos: @Brodehouse: @Darji: Alright, maybe sexist isn't the right word for it. But I definitely don't see her as a very deep or strong character. I think Ataribomb explained it better than I could in his user review.

No character is real deep or strong in this game. That said I love Dante in this. Its a great character and there was also no real annoying or real bad character in there as well.

But she probably thinks that shooting a pregnant "woman" is sexist also again she thinks skin = sexist. She really should not get any intention except from lawyers of people suing her not getting these videos ready.

@Levio said:

Ron Gilbert ‏grumpygamer

If you're stuck on a puzzle in The Cave, take a break. Adventure games are meant to be savored like a fine meal, not eaten like junk food.

Gee thanks Ron.

Is he calling people that play games fat slobs who only eat junk food?! THAT FUCKER!!

So, uh, when did the term 'juvenile' become gender specific?

Guess I didn't get the memo.

SO after reading a couple pages of this thread, I have three observations:

1. Everyone arguing over whether DMC is sexist should look into the concept of confirmation bias.
2. Whoever is writing that Feminist Frequency twitter comes across as the horrific embodiment of every extreme feminist sociologist I've ever had the displeasure of encountering in my academic career and will never bother to pay attention to this person again.
3. Seriously, sexism in video games? that's what this individual is crusading against? Not pay inequality between the genders, the glass ceiling, or any other gender issue that has a much more profound impact on the day-to-day lives of women in society?

@Demoskinos said:

@Brodehouse said:

@Darji said:

@Nettacki said:

I think she might have a bit of a case if what @NoelVeiga said was true. From what I've read and seen, there's more than a few things in the game that could be taken as sexist, especially in regards to its portrayal of Kat.

Whats wrong with kat? Becasue she was abused as a child? I think Kat character is fine for that she is. She was totally broken back than. I really can not understand these critics. Not every woman needs to be strong especially not after what Kat has experienced.

What's more worth considering is the fallacy of the entire idea that Kat is representative of her entire gender. As if GIRL is the only data point under the Kat header. This is something that is constantly being levied upon female characters, that by nature of being both women and fictional, they thusly are representative of all women.

Consider Kat's father. He's a man. He's also a child rapist. Under the same auspice that says Kat is representative of women, we must therefore conclude that Kat's father is representative of all men. If Kat's relatively ineffectual personality is the game commenting on women, then it stands to reason that Kat's father's lust for child rape is a comment on all men. In other words, DmC is calling all men child rapists. Time to get on Twitter.

YES. YES. YES. Exactly this. I can't stand that every single female character "apparently" is representative of there entire gender. There are some stories where the girl needs saving equally there are stories where there are women saving the men. It drives me nuts that some people can not see this. This entire sexism debate has turned from actually being about anything to people like Anita Sarkeesian calling out any female character that they personally can't identify with as sexist. Its utter bullshit.

all of these quotes (except the first one)

in short, the internet generalizes a lot of things.

@jjm494 said:

1. Whoever is writing that Feminist Frequency twitter comes across as the horrific embodiment of every extreme feminist sociologist I've ever had the displeasure of encountering in my academic career and will never bother to pay attention to this person again.

And that's why she's so popular.

1. Seriously, sexism in video games? that's what this individual is crusading against? Not pay inequality between the genders, the glass ceiling, or any other gender issue that has a much more profound impact on the day-to-day lives of women in society?

I've said it before, but raising awareness about an issue is the first step toward taking care of it. Or maybe she wanted to cover a problem that nobody was paying attention to. I'm hitting on something, but I'm not completely there with my point, if that makes any sense.

i didnt read all 15 pages of this thread but i just wanted to comment on how i am annoyed that suddenly sexism is a female only topic.

here's a quote from Patrick's article

You can make the argument that no one would be outraged if this was a male torso with the same lack of bodily features, but c'mon. It’s different when it’s a woman, this is over the line, and Deep Silver should have known better.

Now what?

@algertman said:

Anita Sarkeesian tweeted she hates the game.

https://twitter.com/femfreq

So here's the thing. Since the gaming press is filled with white knights and people who refuse to call her out for not having a single YouTube video ready yet will they start to back track on DmC? This game reviewed well and currently in the mid 80's range on metacritic with reviewers.

Who fucking cares? Calling her a feminist is seriously a stretch anyways. Wait...are you trying to bait people? FUCK

@Video_Game_King said:

@AssInAss said:

I'm guessing nothing to do with Final Fanasy 8 music?

I can't help it if I want to set the mood.

I say we hijack this thread, forgotten old video game music GO

Is it really shocking news someone doesn't like a game?