Just checking in before bed. Everyone still riled up? Affirmative.

Are there any games that paint a female character in a feminist-approved, non-sexist light that aren't also boring as sin? I'm not being cheeky here, I'd really like to check out some examples. And, no, RapeLay does not count.

@Video_Game_King said:

@jjm494 said:

1. Whoever is writing that Feminist Frequency twitter comes across as the horrific embodiment of every extreme feminist sociologist I've ever had the displeasure of encountering in my academic career and will never bother to pay attention to this person again.

And that's why she's so popular.

1. Seriously, sexism in video games? that's what this individual is crusading against? Not pay inequality between the genders, the glass ceiling, or any other gender issue that has a much more profound impact on the day-to-day lives of women in society?

I've said it before, but raising awareness about an issue is the first step toward taking care of it. Or maybe she wanted to cover a problem that nobody was paying attention to. I'm hitting on something, but I'm not completely there with my point, if that makes any sense.

Taking care of the problem is the first step in taking care of the problem. (insert stupid anime music)

@AlexanderSheen said:

Now what?

Profit.

@Jams:

What's the first of the twelve steps? ANIME MUSIC GO!

@Video_Game_King said:

@jjm494 said:

1. Whoever is writing that Feminist Frequency twitter comes across as the horrific embodiment of every extreme feminist sociologist I've ever had the displeasure of encountering in my academic career and will never bother to pay attention to this person again.

And that's why she's so popular.

1. Seriously, sexism in video games? that's what this individual is crusading against? Not pay inequality between the genders, the glass ceiling, or any other gender issue that has a much more profound impact on the day-to-day lives of women in society?

I've said it before, but raising awareness about an issue is the first step toward taking care of it. Or maybe she wanted to cover a problem that nobody was paying attention to. I'm hitting on something, but I'm not completely there with my point, if that makes any sense.

@Video_Game_King: I get where your going and you do have a valid point. Honestly those were my initial impressions after reading her twitter. After a little more reflection, I agree that raising awareness is important and can be beneficial for video games as a whole. However, I think the only thing she's interested in raising awareness about is herself. I'll come back to this tomorrow.

@Video_Game_King said:

@Jams:

What's the first of the twelve steps? ANIME MUSIC GO!

The first of the twelve steps is the first step. ANIME MUSIC!

Why do you guys bother to pay attention to her? It is like obsessing over what Jack Thompson thinks of DmC and then complaining about it when they take the stance you knew they were going to take.

@Jams:

I don't even know how to respond to that.

@Video_Game_King said:

@Jams:

What's the first of the twelve steps? ANIME MUSIC GO!

Wrong anime music dude. Here is what you're looking for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAlztMvvNkk

@Video_Game_King said:

@Jams:

I don't even know how to respond to that.

GOD DAMN ANIME MUSIC! That's it! I'm going to the moon to kick your moon ass!

ALL SYSTEMS GONE! PREPARE FOR DOWN COUNT!

@Ravenlight: In big mainstream games? Classic answer i guess would be Alyx in HL2. I thought Bonnie was great in Red Dead Redemption especially considering the time period. FemShep, which is the only correct version of Shepard.

There's probably tons of examples that would be approved by feminists of the non-crazy variety. Anita ain't one of those.

The only time I ever hear about her is when other people are complaining about her. If you don't like her, ignore her.

@mrfluke said:

@Demoskinos said:

@Brodehouse said:

@Darji said:

@Nettacki said:

I think she might have a bit of a case if what @NoelVeiga said was true. From what I've read and seen, there's more than a few things in the game that could be taken as sexist, especially in regards to its portrayal of Kat.

Whats wrong with kat? Becasue she was abused as a child? I think Kat character is fine for that she is. She was totally broken back than. I really can not understand these critics. Not every woman needs to be strong especially not after what Kat has experienced.

What's more worth considering is the fallacy of the entire idea that Kat is representative of her entire gender. As if GIRL is the only data point under the Kat header. This is something that is constantly being levied upon female characters, that by nature of being both women and fictional, they thusly are representative of all women.

Consider Kat's father. He's a man. He's also a child rapist. Under the same auspice that says Kat is representative of women, we must therefore conclude that Kat's father is representative of all men. If Kat's relatively ineffectual personality is the game commenting on women, then it stands to reason that Kat's father's lust for child rape is a comment on all men. In other words, DmC is calling all men child rapists. Time to get on Twitter.

YES. YES. YES. Exactly this. I can't stand that every single female character "apparently" is representative of there entire gender. There are some stories where the girl needs saving equally there are stories where there are women saving the men. It drives me nuts that some people can not see this. This entire sexism debate has turned from actually being about anything to people like Anita Sarkeesian calling out any female character that they personally can't identify with as sexist. Its utter bullshit.

all of these quotes (except the first one)

in short, the internet generalizes a lot of things.

I don't want to get too deep into this, my earlier post explained what I think the problem is with Kat.

But she IS an avatar for all of humanity. Explicitly, this is said. And she is female. She is symbolic because the game makes her symbolic.

So I already said my piece earlier on Anita and her videos. I don't have a lot of faith in her because I think that, despite her heart being in the right place, she has been reinforced to find issues of sexism everywhere because it is associated with her career. There are other issues I have with her videos like that I don't find her analysis strong rather she points out things she finds sexist but doesn't follow that up with anything intellectually intriguing. The best she could do is raise awareness which, for me personally, I find nothing of value for that for myself making her videos uninteresting to me. But the fundamental issue is that I don't believe in her ability to think rationally about the issue of sexism.

All of that said, the fact that a simple tweet by her led to 16 pages of comments should say something. The fact that people were just so unreasonably upset that people had supported her kickstarter is also extraordinary. These facts matched with the ever present reality here on these forums that every single time 'sexism' is put in an article or a thread the outcry and attention given far outweighs every other article and thread says something about us here on GB and I would imagine gaming community at large.

I went to Anita's site and, though it wasn't for me, some of the videos focused on people's reactions to her kickstarter. She was threatened, ridiculed, and belittled by just as many people as those we snidely call 'white knights' stood up for her. So we all got this fired up over one person's opinions that lead to a small minority who agreed?

What the fuck is wrong with us?

I think we're all caught up here with this idea that the things that happen here or on the internet or on twitter actually amount to anything of real worth. Anita's kickstarter started last May and was funded within that month. Did we see any changes to out precious hobby? Did the game industry collapse? Then why are we so upset about what she does or says? Or when anyone says 'sexism this and sexism that' what has actually come from that? I mean really?

And what is so bad if something did come from these discussions? The game industry isn't going anywhere. We'll still have games. Anita's take on sexism isn't reasonable as must of us are aware. But I doubt many of us would say that the game industry and video games are free from sexism that isn't specifically used to further the game's experience (meaning a game that uses sexism to set an atmosphere ala a period piece or to build or breakdown a character). So what's the harm of change that might help all of us. Why the fuck are we so fucking scared of even mentioning the conversation so that it might be had?

Fucking'a dudes.

@NoelVeiga: I went back and read your post and first off I never once got a "love interest" vibe from Kat if anything I got a older brother/friend vibe. Ya know its possible for a male and female to have a platonic relationship in which they deeply care about each other. Secondly, browsing back through this thread the idea that she is showing any cleavage = sexualized is fucking DUMB. And yeah she is an avatar of sorts for humanity. And its explicitly shown and Dante points it out that both the Nephlilm brothers with all their fantastic powers still wouldn't have been able to overthrow the demon king if it weren't for this supposedly "frail" human who end the end turns out to be not nearly as "weak" as Vergil thought. People are just fucking nitpicking here. You could probably have a decent argument about her not being a entirely well fleshed out character but these claims of her displaying sexist tropes is fucking absurd.

@Demoskinos: I said all I wanted to say on the two posts I made about this issue, and all of your comments are addressed there, so if you read the first one, go read the second one, where I answer to other people that said basically what you are saying now.

@algertman said:

Anita Sarkeesian tweeted she hates the game.

https://twitter.com/femfreq

So here's the thing. Since the gaming press is filled with white knights and people who refuse to call her out for not having a single YouTube video ready yet will they start to back track on DmC? This game reviewed well and currently in the mid 80's range on metacritic with reviewers.

Yes, anyone who is pro-feminist in the gaming industry is a white knight. You're a fucking idiot.

Oh wait? Did I just make an assumption of your character based solely on something you said on the internet?

I know it's silly trying to make a point to you. You're likely in high school or college and have the world figured out.

@Animasta said:

I mean no one cares besides the people who keep bringing up what a shitty person she is and how she is the giantest cunt that ever cunted the cunt or fucking whatever. there was that weird /v/ raid topic about her too and I don't get it, why do you people keep bringing her up

@Video_Game_King: I knew you would! I have precognative powers.

I do hate those giant cunty cunts that cunt the cunt

And thank you for giving me a reason to post these.....

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

@Video_Game_King said:

@Jams:

I don't even know how to respond to that.

http://youtu.be/NI_fgwbmJg0

@Video_Game_King said:

@Jams:

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Well, that's enough internet for today.

@Ravenlight said:

Just checking in before bed. Everyone still riled up? Affirmative.

Are there any games that paint a female character in a feminist-approved, non-sexist light that aren't also boring as sin? I'm not being cheeky here, I'd really like to check out some examples. And, no, RapeLay does not count.

I just finished Dead Space 2 and I'd have to imagine that Ellie would be acceptable. She's at least as competent and tough as Isaac, if not more so, and isn't sexualized in any way, and Dead Space 2 certainly isn't boring.

I would think that Chloe and Elena from the Uncharted series, Kat from Halo: Reach, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, and Lady from Devil May Cry 3 would all be fine. I'm sure there are more, those are just off the top of my head.

@WarlordPayne said:

@Ravenlight said:

Just checking in before bed. Everyone still riled up? Affirmative.

Are there any games that paint a female character in a feminist-approved, non-sexist light that aren't also boring as sin? I'm not being cheeky here, I'd really like to check out some examples. And, no, RapeLay does not count.

I just finished Dead Space 2 and I'd have to imagine that Ellie would be acceptable. She's at least as competent and tough as Isaac, if not more so, and isn't sexualized in any way, and Dead Space 2 certainly isn't boring.

I would think that Chloe and Elena from the Uncharted series, Kat from Halo: Reach, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, and Lady from Devil May Cry 3 would all be fine. I'm sure there are more, those are just off the top of my head.

I'm sorry but Ellie wears a tank top, typical of the disgusting male oriented development world where adolescent boys can live out their gore fantasies, mutilating monsters with surgical precision, while slobbering all over her exposed shoulders. If the developer didn't want to pander to such obviously sexist ideals then Ellie would be wearing a parka at all times with a turtleneck underneath - I didn't notice a lot of heaters on that station. How telling that Isaac, the strong male lead outfitted in a warm self sustaining metal suit of armor is symbolic of a medieval knight towering over the scantly dressed, cold and shivering hapless damsel in distress.

Good luck trying to convince anyone who isn't really open to discussion to begin with that any of those characters exemplify anything but weakness and sexism in one form or another, no matter how ridiculous and stretched those claims might be.

@Humanity: Well, I have no interest in trying to convince any of the crazies of anything. They're not worth engaging in discussion.

I was just answering Ravenlight's question with examples that I would assume would be acceptable to most people.

@WarlordPayne: I certainly agree with all of the characters you suggested. I guess I must have lost a little bit of faith or patience after reading the discourse about Kat in this DmC thread. She is actually quite unique as the game shows how these two super human beings of immense power are still not able to overcome certain obstacles and require the aid of this young strong female. Kat herself doesn't have supernatural powers so she can't fight side by side with Dante and Vergil but she has her own unique skill sets that make her a vital character in the story. Having her reduced to a piece of meat dangling in front of Dante as a carrot to progress the game forward is both derivative and simply inaccurate.

Can people stop talking about this idiot? The sooner that happens the sooner she fades into obscurity.

@MariachiMacabre said:

Jeff hates RDR, I don't see anyone attempting to crucify him.

We probably should though.

@NoelVeiga said:

@mrfluke said:

@Demoskinos said:

@Brodehouse said:

@Darji said:

@Nettacki said:

I think she might have a bit of a case if what @NoelVeiga said was true. From what I've read and seen, there's more than a few things in the game that could be taken as sexist, especially in regards to its portrayal of Kat.

Whats wrong with kat? Becasue she was abused as a child? I think Kat character is fine for that she is. She was totally broken back than. I really can not understand these critics. Not every woman needs to be strong especially not after what Kat has experienced.

What's more worth considering is the fallacy of the entire idea that Kat is representative of her entire gender. As if GIRL is the only data point under the Kat header. This is something that is constantly being levied upon female characters, that by nature of being both women and fictional, they thusly are representative of all women.

Consider Kat's father. He's a man. He's also a child rapist. Under the same auspice that says Kat is representative of women, we must therefore conclude that Kat's father is representative of all men. If Kat's relatively ineffectual personality is the game commenting on women, then it stands to reason that Kat's father's lust for child rape is a comment on all men. In other words, DmC is calling all men child rapists. Time to get on Twitter.

YES. YES. YES. Exactly this. I can't stand that every single female character "apparently" is representative of there entire gender. There are some stories where the girl needs saving equally there are stories where there are women saving the men. It drives me nuts that some people can not see this. This entire sexism debate has turned from actually being about anything to people like Anita Sarkeesian calling out any female character that they personally can't identify with as sexist. Its utter bullshit.

all of these quotes (except the first one)

in short, the internet generalizes a lot of things.

I don't want to get too deep into this, my earlier post explained what I think the problem is with Kat.

But she IS an avatar for all of humanity. Explicitly, this is said. And she is female. She is symbolic because the game makes her symbolic.

Being Dante's symbol for humanity, does not make her a symbol for all of femininity. Continuing down this road, if she's meant to represent women and all the other characters are violent demons, what would it be saying about men and how can you construe that as better?

@Animasta said:

so do we need to post topics about updates to people's twitters now?

BREAKING NEWS

JEFF IS PLAYING ANTICHAMBER.

breaking news

patrick is playing fire emblem

breaking news

breaking news

breaking news

+1000.

@Meowshi said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

Jeff hates RDR, I don't see anyone attempting to crucify him.

We probably should though.

That didn't happen yet? What are we doing with our time?

@JasonR86: I'd hate to be so trite as to post an Edmund Burke quote, but the reason people feel a need to get involved (and more importantly, stay involved) is the use of emotional rhetoric, personal attacks and imputations of malice. As a person who disagrees with Ms. Sarkeesian, I'm sure you've already had the joy of being called a misogynist because you find the things she says unfounded in reality, the imputation of malice that you seek to do harm to her by the grave act of logically disagreeing. The reason people feel the need to stick around and see these arguments to their logical end is not 'their precious hobby', it's to clear the air from circular, dogmatic nonsense.

I think you are also a little off the mark when it comes to her 'harassment' on Youtube. It is not a 'small minority' who rush to her side, and it's not a majority that is making actual arguments against her. I'm sure I don't have to tell you, but if you let complete strangers, specifically younger folks, know exactly how to push your buttons, know exactly which words upset you the most... you're going to discover a lot of anonymous messages that tell you exactly that. Especially when you then spend the next six months ignoring the thing you were given 160,000 dollars for and instead focus on delivering TED Talks about being trolled.

I'm halfway through the game, I'm not sure what's sexist about it.

Well, Patrick seems to like it so as far as extremist feminists go, I'm getting mixed signals.

https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/296168063915683840

@Brodehouse said:

@JasonR86: I'd hate to be so trite as to post an Edmund Burke quote, but the reason people feel a need to get involved (and more importantly, stay involved) is the use of emotional rhetoric, personal attacks and imputations of malice. As a person who disagrees with Ms. Sarkeesian, I'm sure you've already had the joy of being called a misogynist because you find the things she says unfounded in reality, the imputation of malice that you seek to do harm to her by the grave act of logically disagreeing. The reason people feel the need to stick around and see these arguments to their logical end is not 'their precious hobby', it's to clear the air from circular, dogmatic nonsense.

I think you are also a little off the mark when it comes to her 'harassment' on Youtube. It is not a 'small minority' who rush to her side, and it's not a majority that is making actual arguments against her. I'm sure I don't have to tell you, but if you let complete strangers, specifically younger folks, know exactly how to push your buttons, know exactly which words upset you the most... you're going to discover a lot of anonymous messages that tell you exactly that. Especially when you then spend the next six months ignoring the thing you were given 160,000 dollars for and instead focus on delivering TED Talks about being trolled.

Yes People can be assholes news at 11. But she also responsible for this shit by calling ICO sexist by seeing things that are stupid beyond belief. This whole bullshit has blown way out of portion. I really hope she finally releases her stupid videos and than we see the climax of this and then it is finally over. These videos will not change anything, Anita will not change anything except that it will raise the hate for feminists even more.

Sounds to me like she is trying to create a reason for people to talk about here again...and you all walked straight into her trap...crap..so did i huh?

@kagato said:

Sounds to me like she is trying to create a reason for people to talk about here again...and you all walked straight into her trap...crap..so did i huh?

Talking about her doesn't mean shit. People say there's no such thing as bad publicity, and that might be true in some cases but it's also mostly bullshit. So long as you don't get her view count up and don't fund any future kickstarters it's fine.

Sexism deserves someone more intelligent to represent it than Sarkeesian. It deserves to be treated with more thought and sensitivity than pointing at things and saying 'that's sexist, and that, and that'.

She's set the whole debate back a few years, and down a bunch of notches. It's almost like she wants to undermine it completely.

@EvilKatarn said:

Well, Patrick seems to like it so as far as extremist feminists go, I'm getting mixed signals.

https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/296168063915683840

If you think Patrick is an "extremist feminist", then you are either very uninformed or probably don't leave the house very often. Maybe both.

I've seen feminists who make Patrick look like a hipster Duke Nukem.

I've seen some shit...

@Landon said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@Jams:

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Well, that's enough internet for today.

That shit goes hard.

@Meowshi said:

@EvilKatarn said:

Well, Patrick seems to like it so as far as extremist feminists go, I'm getting mixed signals.

https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/296168063915683840

If you think Patrick is an "extremist feminist", then you are either very uninformed or probably don't leave the house very often. Maybe both.

Or maybe I'm kidding, who knows?

@Meowshi said:

I've seen feminists who make Patrick look like a hipster Duke Nukem.

.......For the love of god, tell me that's a meme somewhere.

@EvilKatarn said:

@Meowshi said:

@EvilKatarn said:

Well, Patrick seems to like it so as far as extremist feminists go, I'm getting mixed signals.

https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/296168063915683840

If you think Patrick is an "extremist feminist", then you are either very uninformed or probably don't leave the house very often. Maybe both.

Or maybe I'm kidding, who knows?

Nope, definitely not. Sexist.

Yeah, despite my myriad disagreements with how he's handled everything in the last year, Patrick is not an 'extreme' feminist. He is regardless if he would like to self-identify with it, an anti-sex feminist along the lines of Anita, and he will be until the demands become odious to his interests. Horror tchotchkies and unrealistic female models are things he doesn't mind losing, so he doesn't pay any scrutiny to the low quality of logic and evidence being presented.

My disagreements with feminists are purely intellectual, I've lost nothing physical or financial to them, suffered nothing personally (my gf is not a feminist) and so far their calls for censorship have done nothing. But in the same way that I've lost nothing to Islam or Communism or Christianity, it does not mean I'm going to accept emotional rhetoric as reality-based evidence, or qualify anyone's personal offense as being more important than anyone else's freedom of speech.

@hollitz said:

@algertman said:

Anita Sarkeesian tweeted she hates the game.

https://twitter.com/femfreq

So here's the thing. Since the gaming press is filled with white knights and people who refuse to call her out for not having a single YouTube video ready yet will they start to back track on DmC? This game reviewed well and currently in the mid 80's range on metacritic with reviewers.

Yes, anyone who is pro-feminist in the gaming industry is a white knight. You're a fucking idiot.

Oh wait? Did I just make an assumption of your character based solely on something you said on the internet?

I know it's silly trying to make a point to you. You're likely in high school or college and have the world figured out.

There you are with the insults. This right here is the problem. I've said nothing bad about Anita in my first post that wasn't fact yet I've repeatedly been insulted throughout this whole thread. Looks like the problem is with Anita's defenders. They lash out horribly at anyone who opposes her or her practices. Anita is not the victim here, the people who she stole money from is and that's something the white knights need to understand. Her being a youtube feminist personality doesn't change that.

I pay next-to-no attention to Devil May Cry. Could someone enlighten me on what part of the game is offensive? All I've ever seen is an attractive-in-an-emo-sense male lead. Oh, and a female who happens to have breasts.

@Humanity said:

Ellie would be wearing a parka at all times with a turtleneck underneath

Turtlenecks are sexy. You must be a sexist.

@AndrewB said:

I pay next-to-no attention to Devil May Cry. Could someone enlighten me on what part of the game is offensive? All I've ever seen is an attractive-in-an-emo-sense male lead. Oh, and a female who happens to have breasts.

There literally is none. Dante does not act sexist in any way throughout the game, even when facing female adversaries he doesn't make any misogynistic or sexist comments. Kat as a character wears shorts and thats about as sexual as it gets. She has breasts. At no point does she bend over to show a ton of cleavage or display her ass. Her relationship with Dante could be characterized as brother and sister more so than romantic partners. People are grasping at straws here.

@Humanity said:

@AndrewB said:

I pay next-to-no attention to Devil May Cry. Could someone enlighten me on what part of the game is offensive? All I've ever seen is an attractive-in-an-emo-sense male lead. Oh, and a female who happens to have breasts.

There literally is none. Dante does not act sexist in any way throughout the game, even when facing female adversaries he doesn't make any misogynistic or sexist comments. Kat as a character wears shorts and thats about as sexual as it gets. She has breasts. At no point does she bend over to show a ton of cleavage or display her ass. Her relationship with Dante could be characterized as brother and sister more so than romantic partners. People are grasping at straws here.

Not that Im offended, but I guess you forgot about the Devil chick being bent over in her hooker outfit. Opening sex with Dante and some chicks, still painting of Dante and 3-4 women naked in bed with him. Mostly naked harpies, witches, and club dancers with angel wings. Im not to far into the game thou. Lol Kat in shorts was all you got?

@algertman said:

@hollitz said:

@algertman said:

Anita Sarkeesian tweeted she hates the game.

https://twitter.com/femfreq

So here's the thing. Since the gaming press is filled with white knights and people who refuse to call her out for not having a single YouTube video ready yet will they start to back track on DmC? This game reviewed well and currently in the mid 80's range on metacritic with reviewers.

Yes, anyone who is pro-feminist in the gaming industry is a white knight. You're a fucking idiot.

Oh wait? Did I just make an assumption of your character based solely on something you said on the internet?

I know it's silly trying to make a point to you. You're likely in high school or college and have the world figured out.

There you are with the insults. This right here is the problem. I've said nothing bad about Anita in my first post that wasn't fact yet I've repeatedly been insulted throughout this whole thread. Looks like the problem is with Anita's defenders. They lash out horribly at anyone who opposes her or her practices. Anita is not the victim here, the people who she stole money from is and that's something the white knights need to understand. Her being a youtube feminist personality doesn't change that.

You basically implied that anyone who has ever agreed with or defended Sarkeesian is a white knight. How is that not insulting? And you clearly started this thread so people would bash Sarkeesian and that's exactly what's happened here so it doesn't matter if you didn't initially say anything negative about her the results are the same.