You have not answered my question; do you honestly think DA2 is worse than duke nukem forever? Think DA2 bad (I wonder what games you've played this year to make it one of the worst you've played) as much as you want, but jesus.

@Brodehouse: I know your a DM. You say that at every opportunity before winding into another pedantic design spiel. I don't care.

@Animasta said:

You have not answered my question; do you honestly think DA2 is worse than duke nukem forever? Think DA2 bad (I wonder what games you've played this year to make it one of the worst you've played) as much as you want, but jesus.

I'm not sure how I can judge them fairly against one other. They're in two completely different genres and both carry huge faults. One is an FPS that took way too long to develop, and the other is an RPG that didn't take nearly long enough. But DNF is such a legend of a development disaster that I have to give it credit for being as playable as it is, which is why I can't bring myself to loathe it.

@Hailinel said:

@Brodehouse: I know your a DM. You say that at every opportunity before winding into another pedantic design spiel. I don't care.

If you're going to be an asshole, then fuck you.

so how about that concept art huh

edit: sure is conceptual

Dont fuck with my elves

@Yummylee said:

''You will be human''

Well, this has certainly gotten off to a great start >=/

Talk about nitpicking. You were a human in Mass Effect, heck, you were a Hawke all through Mass Effect (aka you were a named character), I'm sure you didn't complain then.

DA2 was an interesting game but beyond the iffy production quality people should be bothered by how they are treating the story: DA2 seemed to be at best relegating to the background the events of DAO (or worst) and that is annoying. DA3 looks to be ignoring DA2 and DAO so I give that makes me highly indifferent to it.

@Encephalon said:

On a side note, given its divisiveness, I think it's great that we can apparently discuss DA2 without screaming at each other.

Never mind.

@Encephalon said:

@Encephalon said:

On a side note, given its divisiveness, I think it's great that we can apparently discuss DA2 without screaming at each other.

Never mind.

I stopped, I should've realized the futility of arguing with him about keeping an open mind :( soz for shitting up the thread

@Beforet said:

Okay, so I'm going to pass over the whole "why can't we choose our race" argument. I understand the reasoning, and actually agree with much of it. That said, I do have one complaint.

Why human?! It's a world with elves, dwarves, and weird ass horn-people. Hell, fuck the elves and dwarves, the Qunari are probably the most interesting race in this universe. I don't understand why human is the default for these sorts of stories. Dragon Age 2 had it's personal human story; having the protagonist of DAIII be Qunari would have really interesting. That's my input on all of this. I'll still play the game, because I'm sure that the human story for this will still be engaging. I just wish they would consider making the protagonist anything other than human.

It sucks, but people are just boring sometimes :/

Ever notice how like everyone on the bombcast usually seems to roll with human soldiers/warriors type given the chance in these kinds of games? People like whats familiar, I guess

Everything about that summary sounds great to me, deeper party customization especially.

@Brodehouse said:

@Hailinel said:

@Brodehouse: I know your a DM. You say that at every opportunity before winding into another pedantic design spiel. I don't care.

If you're going to be an asshole, then fuck you.

So are you guys gonna make out, or what?

@Genkkaku said:

I really like that first Concept Art..

@Yummylee said:

''You will be human''

Well, this has certainly gotten off to a great start >=/

It sucks but \aAt least it's not 'You will be Hawke'.. And you can choose some sort of background.. I wish they let us play backgrounds like Origins, I've just started that again and I love how it get's you into your character.. They lost so much of what made the first one so special in making the 2nd

It's still in development. Plenty of time for Bioware to lose their collective shit and pull one on us like with DA2. To be fair though I am laying most of the blame on EA for the DA2 debacle.

@Yummylee said:

''You will be human''

Well, this has certainly gotten off to a great start >=/

We'll include all these cool races... And won't let you play any of them. So much for my Qunari dreams.

I was irked about Mass Effect in a similar way, but at least you were the same character throughout the entire series. Dragon Age already had its moment of letting you be what you wanted to be, and it was one of the first game's biggest strengths.

I's assume this has something to do with the specific story they're planning to tell, because if not that's going to be a major bummer after they put out a call from their fanbase to essentially help them fix their backwards movement with 2.

But really, all Dragon Age 3 has to be is an "ominous Kate Mulgrew" simulator and I'll be on board!

Don't really know if there's a whole lot to be excited about in the concept art beyond it looking more reminiscent of the art style they went for with the first game than what they did with Dragon Age 2. Or maybe I just never looked at concept art for 2... because I sure as hell spent years upon years watching Origin's development back when it seemed all but cancelled years after Neverwinter Nights.

Mass Effect 3's multiplayer would fit with Dragon Age III so well. You've got different classes: Mage, rouge, soldier. Subclasses like battle mage and spirit healer, all sorts of different races that attribute differently to each class. And it's all about synergy. Four player co-op with difficulty and creatable-customizable characters, Dragon Age III would be the shit. That way instead of just singleplayer playing a character whose backstory you build, you will be able to create your own character and build them in whatever way you want, and then play with your friends and FORGE A LEGACY.
 
I really hope they do something like that for multiplayer. It would be neat. Do what they did for ME3, have challenge weeks where you do different objectives and then shove thousands of free content down our throats to expand the game. I'm not too sure I'd dig the grinding out unlockable weapons, but I'm sure they'd add loot to the game.
 
Hell, it'd be one step away from an MMO, but good.

Human characters are the best characters. Half of the dialogue of characters from alien races is unavoidably giving you their alien race's perspective, and if you could understand that perspective in 15 minutes of gameplay, it would suggest that perspective isn't very interesting. By giving your character a eurocentric human origin, this problem is resolved for most players.

Anyway, I love the idea of castle building. NWN 2 had a great castle building setup. The problem was that it all fell apart in the payoff. You weren't adequately rewarded for having a prepared force, and aside from that you only really used it once. If the central conflicts of DA3 or any RPG were centered around the castle you build throughout its story, that might well be my new favorite RPG.

@mordukai said:

@Genkkaku said:

I really like that first Concept Art..

@Yummylee said:

''You will be human''

Well, this has certainly gotten off to a great start >=/

It sucks but \aAt least it's not 'You will be Hawke'.. And you can choose some sort of background.. I wish they let us play backgrounds like Origins, I've just started that again and I love how it get's you into your character.. They lost so much of what made the first one so special in making the 2nd

It's still in development. Plenty of time for Bioware to lose their collective shit and pull one on us like with DA2. To be fair though I am laying most of the blame on EA for the DA2 debacle.

I think a lot of DA2's problems where that it was rushed, I mean Biowere have never reused entire environment's whole hog.. But I think this time they are obviously weary of fans if with some info here are some concept art for you, rather then a screen..

@GrantHeaslip said:

@Genkkaku said:

I think a lot of DA2's problems where that it was rushed, I mean Biowere have never reused entire environment's whole hog.

They absolutely did in Mass Effect 1. There were maybe 3-4 environments that side-quest on-foot combat took place in (mine/cave, ship, that square room with a balcony, and maybe something else I'm forgetting). From what I've heard of DA2, it wasn't quite as bad, but there's definitely precedent.

Oh yeah I completely forgot about those reused environment's on every planet landing.. Yeah they were more egregious in DA2, Like there was 1 environment and the map shows the whole layout but depending on which cave you have entered there is a a spot that looks like a door in one area and it's now a wall, but the mini-map still shows it as a place you can reach even though it isn't..

At least in the case of ME1 they improved upon that in 2 by trying to make every side quest encounter unique across the board

Having really enjoyed just about everything except the (extremely limited) world itself in DA2, I'm ready for more.

@Brodehouse said:

@Blimble

@Brodehouse: I didn't actually play 2 but doesn't most of your family get killed off/disappears pretty early on? kinda hurts the family dynamic

No. Your father dies off-screen at some point, but he's brought up constantly. One of the DLCs is pretty much about him. One of your siblings dies and it affects things with you and your mother and remaining sibling. But it's not that "YOUR FAMILY IS AROUND" it's that they exist and it gives you an actual history. You didn't just leap up out of the rocks, you're the eldest child of Malcolm Hawke and Leanna Amell. The best origins in Origins were similar in establishing your history through your family instead of just throwing a character with no history into a situation.

And this. I think there's some serious rose-tinting going on, the origins in DA: O didn't REALLY inform a lot about your character or their future, it was just an interesting scenario to play through that wound up with some VERY bottle-necked consequences.

@mordukai said:

@Genkkaku said:

I really like that first Concept Art..

@Yummylee said:

''You will be human''

Well, this has certainly gotten off to a great start >=/

It sucks but \aAt least it's not 'You will be Hawke'.. And you can choose some sort of background.. I wish they let us play backgrounds like Origins, I've just started that again and I love how it get's you into your character.. They lost so much of what made the first one so special in making the 2nd

It's still in development. Plenty of time for Bioware to lose their collective shit and pull one on us like with DA2. To be fair though I am laying most of the blame on EA for the DA2 debacle.

I think a lot of DA2's problems where that it was rushed, I mean Biowere have never reused entire environment's whole hog.. But I think this time they are obviously weary of fans if with some info here are some concept art for you, rather then a screen..

@N7: dude, are you saying origins DOESN'T get boring after a while? it's why I like DA2 better, because awakenings made me never ever want to play that game ever again

@Yummylee: I know... City Elf is the only character I really want to play..

@Demoskinos said:

@Brodehouse Pretty much agree with most of what you said. There were a few of the origin stories that fell flat because of that. The city elf in particular comes to mind as one of my least favorites.

I loved City Elf... playing a racist crazy elf that hates humans was the hilight of that game for me...

@The_Ruiner: being a dalish elf (and an elf mage) allows for plenty of racism

@N7 said:

@Genkkaku said:

@mordukai said:

@Genkkaku said:

I really like that first Concept Art..

@Yummylee said:

''You will be human''

Well, this has certainly gotten off to a great start >=/

It sucks but \aAt least it's not 'You will be Hawke'.. And you can choose some sort of background.. I wish they let us play backgrounds like Origins, I've just started that again and I love how it get's you into your character.. They lost so much of what made the first one so special in making the 2nd

It's still in development. Plenty of time for Bioware to lose their collective shit and pull one on us like with DA2. To be fair though I am laying most of the blame on EA for the DA2 debacle.

I think a lot of DA2's problems where that it was rushed, I mean Biowere have never reused entire environment's whole hog.. But I think this time they are obviously weary of fans if with some info here are some concept art for you, rather then a screen..

You should play Dragon Age II's DLC: Legacy. It basically turns into a real Dragon Age game. It gets hard as hell, forces you to use strategy(BELIEVE ME, I TRIED TO BUTTON MASH!) and tactics to beat the enemies. The maps are massive and expansive in the ways of Origins and there's a lot to do there. Having just come out of Origins and Awakening to II I saw a lot of what people didn't like that I didn't notice before. Cartoonishly huge weapons, a fighting system that just gets boring after a while(I hit that dude a thousand times, literally! A thousand times! He's still not dead!?) and a lack of depth. Dragon Age II was not an RPG, it was an action game. But playing Legacy... Man, they really learned. It was what DAII should have been and it was loads of fun. I haven't played Mark Of The Ninja, and hear a lot of people blew it off because Falicia Day, but I hear it's the same story with that. They took in the feedback and crunched it into a great experience. One thing is for sure, they learned their lesson and are going to do all they can to make it great. I mean they are already talking about love interests. People really liked in DAO that you could pull your LI aside and smooch her. They said there is going to be a lot more of that freedom in to it that people would have expected. I love Dragon Age 2, but I see what's wrong with it. And having played the DLC and heard what Bioware are saying for the third, I have complete faith. It's not going to be Origins 2, so you should probably get that out of your mind, but it's going to be a lot more expansive and it'll have as much, if not more depth, than Dragon Age Origins.

I'm currently replaying DA:O now so I'll probably grab a copy of 2 when I finish and play through that again (Got it Xbox the first time round and that's probably my main grievance, that it was very playable as an action game on the console).. I'll check out the DLC after becuase I always did want to check out the Felicia Day stuff but had traded my copy by then..

I still really like the characters and storytelling of 2, and I can see why they forced you into a single character (Voiced + Tighter Storytelling) but then that wasn't what I wanted out of DA2 anyways..

I really hope it is to early to judge DA: Inquisition but the fact that they are forcing players to be human, Is not a great start

Why do they even release concept art? Are people honestly amazed that the art team can draw that well? Not saying that sort of stuff shouldn't be appreciated, but it doesn't really give us a clear picture of what the actual game will look or feel like and I feel is a "cop out" to satisfy people.

I just hope they focus a lot more on story-line's in this than they did in the first two. Not that either lacked when it came to story pieces, but some just felt absolutely tacked on or cliche. I really want to see an evolving story-line where the writers really thought through all the decisions the player can make and alter the world in light of it.

Dragon Age II didn't kill my love for the series, it made it stronger because I didn't care for the firsts combat system, but I am cautiously optimistic that they may have learn from past mistakes.

I think it's pretty obvious why they chose to stick with a human character: Dragon Age II and Mass Effect 3. Bioware got burned badly by trying to incorporate too much latitude of choice in ME3 (it clearly became unmanageable) and burned by trying to pare back too much in DA2. So they limited the initial input options in DA3 to keep the rest of the game manageable, and are giving latitude within those limits. Sure, not everyone is going to like it, but at least Bioware is showing some restraint here--a sign, I think, that they've actually thought things through this time around, unlike with DA2.

Allowing different player races multiplies the ways that the game needs to adjust, especially in the final third of the game. We're talking dialogue options, party options, sidequests. It's all perfectly possible to pull off (DA:O did a fine job of it), but it's expensive and time consuming. And given the response to DA2 and ME3, it's no surprise to me that Bioware is taking a somewhat more conservative approach.

It's difficult to tell at this point if this will pay off. I'm optimistic. I'm not as down on DA2 as many here are, and definitely not as much of a critic of ME3. But those games did have flaws, and I'm beginning to see the outlines of how Bioware has learned from those mistakes. Will they make new mistakes? Probably. I think they're on the right track, even if they're not going as bold as I might have preferred.

@LikeaSsur said:

@Yummylee said:

''You will be human''

Well, this has certainly gotten off to a great start >=/

Talk about nitpicking. You were a human in Mass Effect, heck, you were a Hawke all through Mass Effect (aka you were a named character), I'm sure you didn't complain then.

Oh really? That's quite the presumption you've made there. Regardless of how I felt about Hawke (oh, and FYI, I thought being forced to play as a human in DA2 sucked. though i learned to deal with it), this is now the second game where they're forcing players to take on the role of human amidst a fantasy world - a well established one at that. Not a dwarf, elf, quanari - a human. Again. It's not even that I'm peeved about not being able to choose from a selection of races (though I would have liked if they could at least given three presets or something), but that we're a human character. It's just so boring.

@Brodehouse: I also beat Awakening in a little over 10 hours*, so have fun with it being a third of the length of the original game. That's not to say it isn't good, the parts where you are in the deep roads and the fade aren't awful, as is the "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" final choice (which of course is barely mentioned in DA2). I personally was left with wanting more, and the fairly awful DLC for the rest of the game doesn't count.

*:I tend to rush. I did not 100% the Expansion by any means. Still, it's short.

@Yummylee said:

@LikeaSsur said:

@Yummylee said:

''You will be human''

Well, this has certainly gotten off to a great start >=/

Talk about nitpicking. You were a human in Mass Effect, heck, you were a Hawke all through Mass Effect (aka you were a named character), I'm sure you didn't complain then.

Oh really? That's quite the presumption you've made there. Regardless of how I felt about Hawke (oh, and FYI, I thought being forced to play as a human in DA2 sucked), this is now the second game where they're forcing players to take on the role of human amidst a fantasy world - a well established one at that. Not a dwarf, elf, quanari - a human. Again. It's not even that I'm peeved about not being able to choose from a selection of races (though I would have liked if they could at least given three presets or something), but that we're a human character. It's just so boring.

It's really just a problem with fantasy/sci-fi in general (i.e. making a protagonist whom the audience can relate to, which probably requires them to be human), and why playing the asshole racist elf in DA Origins was so enjoyable. I don't necessarily hate Hawke though, if only because picking all of the sarcastic or angry responses in dialogue leads to a scenario where your character is some variety of complete lunatic throwing off one-liners or getting unreasonably pissed about everything.

@ArbitraryWater: Oh, I'm aware of the why it all. But that's also what made Origins so fantastic; it had your human character for all of the Jeff and Brads out there (by which I mean the most unimaginative video game players of all time who instinctively lean towards human soldier/warrior archetypes), but for everyone else who wanted to roleplay as something a little different, there was, well, everything else.

I too gradually learned to like my Hawke. But that was also in part because of the developers promise that each game will follow a different protagonist, so I just settled with Hawke as being the series medieval Shepard and assumed Dragon Age 3 would allow a little more customisation. And it's not like this series is exactly new, nor are the settings. There's plenty of information about the world, so placing characters into the role of a human just so they can relate more doesn't cut it quite as much as, say, Mass Effect starting you off as a human character. Plus at least with Mass Effect you're sticking with the same character; if Dragon Age 3 has to once again saddle you into the role of a human, then I'd rather they just let me import my Hawke over.

Man, and could you imagine if you were to play as a Qunari for Dragon Age 3? It would be such a bold and commendable move for them to take. I can at least understand why they couldn't stick you strictly as a dwarf because that would also limit your class capabilities, since they can't use magic. But Elves and Qunari (or Hell, one of those talking Darkspawn O_O) would have made for a suitable alternative.

Of course there's still time for them to expand upon what these ''backgrounds'' entail and just what they mean when they say there'll be even more customisation available than there was in Origins. I should note that it's not like I've completely written off Dragon Age 3 solely because I'm stuck as a human... again. But like I said in my first post, they haven't exactly left me with an entirely enthusiastic first impression.

Also BTW as someone who did 100% Awakening, it's still only like 13 hours long. So yeah, that thing was short, and the ending was tuuurible at that. But as you say, it's certainly a whole lot better than the rest of the DLC that came out for it. Leliana's Song and Shale are the only other pieces which you could consider to be comparable.

@Yummylee said:

@ArbitraryWater: Oh, I'm aware of the why it all. But that's also what made Origins so fantastic; it had your human character for all of the Jeff and Brads out there (by which I mean the most unimaginative video game players of all time who instinctively lean towards human soldier/warrior archetypes), but for everyone else who wanted to roleplay as something a little different, there was, well, everything else.

I admit I laughed when you said this. It's so true. The most exciting character preference Jeff has is that he plays E. Honda in Street Fighter.

Otherwise, I am on board with you for the most part. What makes me cynical about Dragon Age III is more the part where Bioware has taken a turn for the worse than the part where you will inevitably control a fully-voiced protagonist with a dialogue wheel (though that certainly doesn't help). Nice to see that I wasn't incorrect that Awakening is crazy short.

When I hear the phrase "follower customization", I think of something like Dragon Quest IX where you created each member of your party. The upside was that each character felt like your own, the downside is that they didn't have any unique personalities; no real dialogue. I hope that's not what they mean by "follower customization". Then again, maybe they mean something more in line with Dragon's Dogma. Either way, I'm am willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt this far from release. I really want DA3 to be good.