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    Fallout 4

    Game » consists of 14 releases. Released Nov 10, 2015

    The Fallout series continues in a post-apocalyptic Boston, Massachusetts.

    In the Fallout 4 jank argument of GOTY 2015, which side were you on?

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    liquiddragon

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    liquiddragon  Online

    Poll In the Fallout 4 jank argument of GOTY 2015, which side were you on? (728 votes)

    The pros of Bethesda open-world games outweigh the cons so I can more or less forgive or overlook the jank. (Brad, Austin) 19%
    Bethesda really needs to address these problems because game over game, the progress they've made hasn't been enough or acceptable. (Jeff, Vinny) 61%
    I was somewhere in the middle on this one. 16%
    Results 4%

    I was definitely with Jeff and Vinny on this one. Companies that have been in the open-world area for a long time make enormous effort, game over game, to flesh out and stabilize the tech and they've made tremendous strides when it comes to jank. To see the same kinds of problems in so many games, I find it very hard to defend or even accept.

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    Luchalma

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    MAYBE if Fallout 4 was a more interesting game in the first place I could overlook it more. But the game seemed like a very soulless "one of those" in general. And the fact that it came out after The Witcher 3 did it zero favors.

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    BoccKob

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    I think some measure of jank will always exist in big open world games, but the level of it in Bethesda games usually seems like they'd rather just ship the thing than spend more on QA. I think it's ridiculous to just go "uhh, games are hard" to defend bugs. You're selling a product to people, it needs to fuckin' work properly. If a publisher doesn't want to spend the time and money fixing up their big complex game, then make something smaller and simpler. It's especially unacceptable that this kind of thing seems to come from "AAA" game companies who have the giant budget and staff to take care of this stuff more often than not.

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    xanadu

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    I guess if I wasn't playing these on games PC I would vote for the 2nd option. Ive honestly never had these "jank" problems with bethesda games.

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    matoya

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    Fallout 4 is fucking trash

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    Humanity

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    #5  Edited By Humanity

    Those Fallout games have been awful ever since Fallout 3 and they haven't gotten literally ANY better. God bless those who have 10000 hours on the game clock with dozens of mods installed but man those games are seriously not great.

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    ArbitraryWater

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    I can accept, to a certain extent, that a game with as many moving parts as any given Bethesda RPG will never be fully stable, but I also don't think that the scale and scope of their worlds is a good enough reason to give them a pass anymore. If Fallout 4 had better writing and more interesting RPG mechanics, I think I'd still be willing to accept a certain amount of broken nonsense. As it stands, however, the myriad technical issues these games always have are just one more thing on the list that soured Fallout 4 for me.

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    Justin258

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    #7  Edited By Justin258

    I guess I've been ridiculously lucky in that, while I have experienced Bethesda jank, it has never been particularly bad for me. It's just been something occasional. However, I will note that they really need to figure out how to make that engine separate physics and framerate, if that's even possible. Bethesda games are one of a handful of games where I have to change my monitor's refresh rate from 144Hz to 60Hz and turn on Vsync just to make sure things don't go crazy (or limit the framerate but for some reason that doesn't seem to work quite as well).

    That said, I only played Fallout 4 for about 20 hours. I did that twice and stopped at about the same spot both times. I just could not get into that game.

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    FacelessVixen

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    Seeing as how I've spent over 600 hours in the game, I was going to say that I'm on the side of giving the jank a pass and blame the small handful of crashes I've had on mods. But, my frame rate in downtown Boston is drops down to the low 20's while I get between 50 and 60 in other areas even with the unofficial patch, so that chunk of the game could have used more optimization time since Fallout 4 is the one modern game I have where I'd say that I can have some significant frame rate issues with, and I'm not upgrading from an i5 to an i7 or from a 1060 to a 1080 Ti to try to brute force the issue.

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    lylebot

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    As long as it's not game-breaking, I don't mind.

    I had two problems with that GOTY discussion, keeping in mind that I didn't play Fallout 4:

    1. Jeff's idea that more gaming machine power should mean fewer bugs in quest progression. Everything I've seen in Bethesda games suggests to me that these are basic bugs of logic that could occur even in the simplest application on the least powerful platform. They crop up as a result of the game growing so complex--as a result of increasing power--that even those very simple bugs become very difficult to track down. As systems get more complex, we're only going to see more bugs like that, not fewer.
    2. They spent so much time talking about bugs and jank, when I really wanted to hear more about the gameplay and story issues that made Fallout 4 a disappointment. Bugs didn't sink Skyrim in their estimation, so I'd rather have heard about the stuff that made Fallout 4 lesser than Skyrim given that both had an awful lot of bugs and jank.
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    Slag

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    I'm alright with Jank if it presents a good tradeoff. I don't think just aimless scale is a good enough tradeoff

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    damodar

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    I can understand the frustration at the continued buggy nature of Bethesda games. While it's probably a minor miracle that games that have vast scale and tons of moving parts ever even work at all, Bethesda have kind of just been iterating on the same tech for a long time and it's probably a nightmare rats nest of code at this point and it feels long past the point where they maybe should have basically started again from scratch.

    Having said that, the bugs aren't really the issue for me. Even if it worked flawlessly, I don't think Fallout 4 would have been near my GOTY list that year. For me, it's all been downhill since Morrowind.

    Also, Skyrim being GOTY in 2011 or whatever was the greatest travesty in modern history and Saints Row: The Third was robbed. Never Forget.

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    quirkens

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    I could easily of overlooked the jank however fallout 4 was easily the worst of the series

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    TehFedro

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    In general I'm perfectly fine with some jank in games, I mean I love Fallout 3, New Vegas and Skyrim and those are full of it. But being extremely disappointed with Fallout 4 and the direction it took (which judging from what Bethesda thinks it's gonna get even worse) really put me in a bad mood towards them. Though I did buy the mostly garbage DLC and played way too much of this game so I'm part of the problem.

    Jank will always be around but Bethesda has a very unhealthy level of it. They're a huge company, it isn't acceptable and they should be diligent in squashing the game breaking bugs and performance problems and such that occur. However that's also a factor is that they make tons of money off of idiots like me who didn't care for a long time. So getting away with all of that is gonna be hard to stop.

    Anyway they're just gonna release Skyrim for eternity so I guess we don't have to worry anymore.

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    SpaceInsomniac

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    Bethesda need to address the problem of the horrid writing of their main quests long before they need to care about the jank. The main quests in both Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 are just completely awful.

    At any rate, I voted option A.

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    Fear_the_Booboo

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    I don't think Fallout 4 is great at all, but I still voted for option 1.

    I think the scale of interactions in Bethesda games will make them inherently buggy, and there's no way around it. I also think those games should exist, as the amount of freedom they give can't be seen anywhere else in the "gamind landscape". So the idea that Bethesda should scale back to make more polished game doesn't make sense to me, it would just be a different game. I prefer a crazy unpolished but innovative game that a polished but expected one.

    That being said, Fallout 4 was more of the same. Skyrim, Fallout 3 and New Vegas are all better games at the end of the day.

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    flasaltine

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    Removing the jank would not have made Fallout 4 a great game.

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    OurSin_360

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    Jank in those games is fine when the game is fun, fallout 4 was not that fun regardless so the jank was more prominent IMO.

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    floorswine

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    Fallout 4 was nowhere near as good as Fallout 3 or New Vegas. But I fully expect jank going into any Bethesda game, so it didn't have any bearing whatsoever over how I felt about it.

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    achillesforever

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    @quirkens said:

    I could easily of overlooked the jank however fallout 4 was easily the worst of the series

    Yeah I overlook a lot of the jank and engine problems with New Vegas and I consider it to be one of the best games ever made because the amount of detail in the stories and characters is insane and I liked what it added to the previous game by making the companion system not shit, make skills useful again, bringing back traits that had both pros and cons, and allow to you roleplay way better than Fallout 3 which really doesn't give you anything. Fallout 4's big mistake was giving the writing duties to Fallout 3's writer.

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    ShaggE

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    Jank felt like the least of FO4's issues. I do agree that Bethesda needs to step up their quality quite a bit, stability-wise, but the issues in that game are much bigger than that. I love 3 and NV, and those are held together with nothing but chewing gum and crossed fingers.

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    hans_maulwurf

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    #21  Edited By hans_maulwurf

    I never really had that many technical issues with Bethesda games. And most of those were mod related. But I also don't see what makes their games so special. They usually just have a big, empty world. Yeah you can go "everywhere" and do "everything". But everywhere's the same and what you can actually do is shoot, punch, a lockpicking minigame or talk to get some generic dialogue.

    Apart from that, as I understand it, presumably their most special thing is like a complex world/ai simulation? Which is something I think exists more in the minds of Brad and Austin than in the actual games. Or if it's there they really aren't making very effective use of it, because that aspect of their games never stood out to me. It's also something that's been done more competent and in more interesting and meaningful ways in games with a much smaller budget, like Deadly Premonition or Mount and Blade.

    tldr team VJ, though for different reasons than jank

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    Humanity

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    Anyone that is "ok with the jank" is with all due respect part of the problem. Games are never going to be perfect but what Bethesda is doing is seriously way above and beyond what we normally associate with bugs and people seem A-OK with giving them a pass in it. Maybe several years ago it was barely acceptable but if we don't have higher standards now we shouldn't ever complain about games like AC Unity being a mess either.

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    n00bs7ay3r

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    Fallout 4 was my personal GOTY for 2015.

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    ZolRoyce

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    Bethesda need to address the problem of the horrid writing of their main quests long before they need to care about the jank. The main quests in both Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 are just completely awful.

    At any rate, I voted option A.

    I agree with you, I still enjoy playing them for what they are which is a giant sand box full of toys, and then modders come along and make even more toys. I expect jank at this point due to beth and the amount of mods I cram into the damn things. So I'm not concerned about the jank.
    The story is where I'm concerned, I get they want to spend time on making the box of toys, but make me give a shit about what's happening with those toys.

    The fact that the writing for Beth games has never progressed is what gets to me. Far more than the jank.

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    paulmako

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    @humanity said:

    Anyone that is "ok with the jank" is with all due respect part of the problem. Games are never going to be perfect but what Bethesda is doing is seriously way above and beyond what we normally associate with bugs and people seem A-OK with giving them a pass in it. Maybe several years ago it was barely acceptable but if we don't have higher standards now we shouldn't ever complain about games like AC Unity being a mess either.

    I guess I'm part of the problem for coping with the jank and enjoying a game you don't like.

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    rethla

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    If it was only the jank it would be fine but with every single thing in the game being 100% generic and soulless they cant pull that card in my book. Quantity above all else just isnt my cup of tea and the real bummer about those games is that the quantity aint very impressive either post Morrowind.

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    Tennmuerti

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    #29  Edited By Tennmuerti

    For me jank was the least of Fallout 4's problems. If that game was polished spotless it would still be mediocre.

    That said having these issues over and over after several entries in their core library over more then a decade is not good enough either, especially when the open world selling point has long since been eroded by other games and developers.

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    Vod_Crack

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    Fallout 4 was my personal GOTY for 2015.

    It was mine too, though admittedly it wasn't an amazing year for games. A lot of good games but not many really good games. I really liked Fallout 4, it just clicked with me and it's my favourite in the series so far.

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    Humanity

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    @paulmako said:
    @humanity said:

    Anyone that is "ok with the jank" is with all due respect part of the problem. Games are never going to be perfect but what Bethesda is doing is seriously way above and beyond what we normally associate with bugs and people seem A-OK with giving them a pass in it. Maybe several years ago it was barely acceptable but if we don't have higher standards now we shouldn't ever complain about games like AC Unity being a mess either.

    I guess I'm part of the problem for coping with the jank and enjoying a game you don't like.

    It's more a matter of having certain standards when it comes to games as a whole than simply liking a game more than the other guy. I'm not going to fault anyone for liking Fallout 4 as a game, but I do have issues with people giving them a free pass on releasing buggy products again and again because we've somehow associated these games with being broken like that is OK when it shouldn't be. Like I said earlier, by all rights if you are giving this game a pass, you shouldn't have the right to complain about other games being similarly broken even when you don't inherently like the core gameplay and are willing to put up with the mess.

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    Digaumgrunge

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    Fallout 4 had WAY less bugs then the previous Gamebryo/Creation Engine games. It loses GOTY in 2015 because the writing in it is bad.

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    lovcol

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    #33  Edited By lovcol

    Would you be willing to let go of the possibility to pick up everything and place them down everywhere, and stuff like that?

    If yes, then they could make you far less buggy games.

    Lots of options = lots of bugs.

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    SarcasticMudcrab

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    I didn't experience anything other than humorous jank, decent enough game and beautiful with the right mods.

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    Onemanarmyy

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    I don't understand the need to be able to pick up all the garbage in that game. I mean, yeah i've seen some funny screenshots of people filling their houses with melons and stuff, but apart from that i just don't get what the appeal is. It's not like it's a mechanic that's vital to be able to complete the quests in those games.

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    GERALTITUDE

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    I've never cared about their jank in any games, they have bigger problem than that. Fallout 4 has some of the worst quest design I've played in a ages.

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    vsharres

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    The jank was expected, and to be fair, I had almost no major bugs when I was playing the game, previous games where way buggier (I played on PC).

    The bigger issue with the game was a lack of ambition and something new to the formula, it was way to much of the same and most of that was not on the same quality as in previous games, and in some cases a let down, like the dialogue "system". The biggest mistake they made with the game for me was by making such a personal story for the main character, the types of characters that you can play as are drastically limited when you whole goal in the game is to go find your lost son, they should have made a more open ended story to begin with.

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    TheWildCard

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    #38  Edited By TheWildCard

    I've literally been on both sides of the argument with previous Bethesda games, so not having played Fallout 4 at the time I had no side when I listened to the proceedings. Jeff's argument on paper is reasonable, and they've obviously gotten away with it in past because few games real nail the sense of freedom and immersion their games contain, but I'm not sure if other games have really out-Skyrimed Skyrim. Witcher III is very good, but it's a different experience in a lot of ways. Ultimately the pros outshine the jank in their better games, but obviously that can be very case by case, I wouldn't blame anyone for souring after a questline breaks due to bugs. From what I played of Fallout 4 didn't really grab me, and it seems that was true for a lot of other players, even people who loved FO3.

    In short I don't really buy Jeff's argument that jank standards have changed that much, FO4 was just not as compelling as previous games. I could still love a janky Elder Scrolls VI if the world was interesting and the moment to moment interactions were improved "just enough."

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    Relenus

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    Yeah, I'm on team Jeff on this one. Especially after playing through the masterwork that was The Witcher 3 earlier in the year, another big broken Bethesda game just wasn't doing it for me. Also, I thought that while the shooting was better, stripping out a lot of the RPG guts of Fallout just made the flaws in the shooting even more evident.

    FWIW, my favorite Bethesda open-world game is Fallout New Vegas, the one made by a different studio.

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    RonGalaxy

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    Fallout 4 was really boring, which was it's biggest problem. The jank makes it all worse, but their games are so complex you really can't blame them. Dave Lang talked about it once and said a literal army of people wouldn't be enough to squash every bug in a game like that.

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    mems1224

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    #41  Edited By mems1224

    Battlegrounds is a janky piece of garbage right now and everyone, including myself, loves it. I don't mind jank if the game is doing something interesting and fun. No other RPG out has a world with as many systems interacting with each other like Bethesda games. Even games that try like Tw3(which was a janky mess at launch as well but hey, this game gets a pass for...reasons?) or even Zelda don't even come close to Bethesda's level.

    FO4 wasn't my favorite Bethesda game, I had issues with it that had nothing to do with the jank but I still enjoyed my time with it and it was a great game.

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    sasnake

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    #42  Edited By sasnake

    @mems1224 said:

    Battlegrounds is a janky piece of garbage right now and everyone, including myself, loves it. I don't mind jank if the game is doing something interesting and fun. No other RPG out has a world with as many systems interacting with each other like Bethesda games. Even games that try like Tw3(which was a janky mess at launch as well but hey, this game gets a pass for...reasons?) or even Zelda don't even come close to Bethesda's level.

    FO4 wasn't my favorite Bethesda game, I had issues with it that had nothing to do with the jank but I still enjoyed my time with it and it was a great game.

    Except Battlegrounds is an early access unfinished game, where as every Bathesda game is released as a full, janky, full priced product. TW3 was nowhere near the same level of jank as Fallout 4 when it launched. Don't confuse "jank" with "janky mess". Although I am interested in knowing how many systems Bethesdas worlds have interacting each other which makes it miles apart from anything else like it.

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    Rahf

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    Full disclosure: I haven't played Fallout 4, but I have played the other tentpole Bethesda games. But I have checked in on gameplay and story.

    CD Projekt RED got a pass on the Witcher 3 because the game itself was, top-to-bottom, a fantastic experience. It was a clear improvement in every way from the Witcher 2, which also was a clear improvement from the Witcher 1. All three games had refined mechanics to the core gameplay, and altered or streamlined mechanics in the periphery. In many ways that trilogy was a new experience for people used to American sensibilities with dialogue, mood, and characterization. Skyrim was the same way, but even here we saw some reservations crop up from the GB crew, especially with texture issues on some platforms.

    Let's also not forget that the Witcher 3 was CD Projekt RED's first truly open-world game. Bethesda's made... how many? Let's say: a bunch.

    Fallout 4 contains, like its predecessors, a similar structure, the same style of writing, the same-- everything really. It hasn't progressed Bethesda's own structure from Fallout 3, perhaps even Oblivion. And the additions made function much like filler-arcs in an anime series, or a monster-of-the-week episode in 90's television; we don't generally want or need to do them, other than for the sake of doing them.

    Skyrim, in contrast to its predecessors, benefited from a very strong marketing campaign, very popular game consoles, multi-platform releases, and a new setting. But Fallout 4 has been seen. We saw it constantly from 2008 through all of 2009, and it was the same experience almost every time. The 50's post-apocalypse is old news by now.

    Man... I should take these thoughts and write a blog post or something.

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    deactivated-5c295850623f7

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    Option 1. But then again, I can overlook jank in games and often times I find it endearing. The slavish pursuit of perfection in modern game design I think plays a big role in the lack of risk found in modern AAA games these days.

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    mems1224

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    #45  Edited By mems1224

    @sasnake: meh, "it's early access" isn't much of an excuse anymore. It's a game being sold for money. People know what the deal is with Bethesda games by now if they want less jank. My point was only regarding the jank, not the stage of development the game is in.

    Tw3 had to patch the walking. You know, the thing you do for 90% of the game. Roach is still awful and broken to this day. I had multiple quest glitches that either wouldn't finish or wouldn't remove the icon on the map after I finished them. The UI also had to be patched and changed. That game was a mess at launch. FO4 had issues at launch as well but that was mostly contained to the consoles.

    Have you played a Bethesda game before? Because while Tw3 is bigger its still mostly a very static world where you mostly interact with enemies and NPCs. Bethesda's worlds are more of a sandbox. Most objects you can interact with and most NPCs in that game have their own routines. There is a lot more randomness and customization. They also have a much bigger and better modding community among other things.

    Here is an example of something you're probably not going to see in a Witcher game

    https://youtu.be/sTgUm8VEWiU

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    Tom_omb

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    I enjoyed Fallout 4 fine enough in the week or so I played it at release. After 100 hours and getting all, but one, achievement I don't recall it being particularly buggy or janky. Although I presume some of it was there, because it was a Bethesda game. It's been hard for me to get into the DLC, but that's an entirely separate issue.

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    Danteveli

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    I'm on team Jeff. Certain level of problems can be excused, more if the rest of the game is really good in all the other places. There is a point where jank is overpowering the experience and killing the immersion. i grant them that they can make intricate open world but it doesn't mean than they can make everything crap and ride the wave of no one else does this stuff. Maybe no one else id doing it because it leads to creating mess?

    But to be honest it doesn't really matter in the case of F4 since everything else in the game was disappointing. Not improving on the experience fitted with everything else pretty well.

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    ivdamke

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    #48  Edited By ivdamke

    @mems1224: Early Access is Early Access, no matter your views on it it's advertised as a game in development. Bethesda chooses to release their games as a full complete product and thus are judged as so.

    The Witcher 3 had issues at launch but the movement and the UI were both 100% functional and working as intended on release. Despite that CDPR saw ways to further improve these things based on feedback by their consumers. The movement was most certainly not a bug they changed it because some people didn't like how it felt, claiming that's a bug is beyond silly. The UI also worked as intended but in creative design nothing is perfect and you can improve on things overtime. Let's not complain about TW3's UI while we defend Fallout 4, you can have your opinion but in this case it would be an objectively wrong one.

    Roach is legitimately buggy I can't argue that.

    You seem overly defensive about this, also that Skyrim video is AI interacting with other AI. This happens in TW3 and numerous other games before it. That doesn't excuse things like this:

    Loading Video...

    This is clearly a joke video, all games get these bugs they're just a lot more prominent in Bethesda games.

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    Picky_Bugger

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    Fallout 4 is a bad game, continuing down the root of Bethesda games getting increasingly generic with simplified systems. The jank just isn't excusable anymore.

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    mems1224

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    #50  Edited By mems1224

    @ivdamke: again, my point is that it's a janky ass busted game that people still love. I'm not talking about cost or stage in production or anything other than making a point that people overlook its jank and can have fun. If FO4 was called early access at launch do you think it wouldn't have received the same rage?

    The worlds in Bethesda games are way more dynamic, that's my overall point. Whether it's AI interacting with AI or being able to pick up almost any object to building and customizing your own base, weapons and armor. There is just a lot crammed into a Bethesda game compared to other open world game RPGs.

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