@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Only a few months left?!

Okay, now I can get excited. Gimmie that Steam version! :D

Anyway, if you ask me... the whole $40K policy is stupid. I can kind of understand why Microsoft wouldn't want patches going up all the time for games. I mean, this is a console we're talking about, where you have to patch before you load the game, Unlike Steam where it updates in the background. Also, 40 grand is a good deterrent to make sure developer's patches are working properly and not completely fucked.

I think a good solution for smaller devs would be this, however: One free patch every three months, and if you have to patch again in that time, THEN and only then, it would cost you $40,000. This way, it prevents patches from going up too regularly, it prevents developers from rushing out patches, and it makes sure that they properly test them fully to ensure a 100% working product.

Of course, for the big developers, they could still pay as many times as they like for a patch, but for the smaller devs, they could just wait it out and code the shit out of their patch until they have another free update.

What do you guys think?

Maybe after 5 years of development, which probably didn't come to an end until MS gave you $ for that exclusivity, don't release a broken game in the first place? I am not pretending that MS is doing any of this 'right,' but as the post points out, their issues are not a secret. Polytron knew what they were getting into, and this tool needs to stop playing the victim.

@Humanity: From all accounts I've heard (and several people confirming it here in these comments) any money from direct sales on XBL are not passed on to the developers/publishers until 4 months after the game's release. So it's possible that Polytron has not actually seen any money yet from Fez sales.

And no, we don't know whether it's "can't" as opposed to "won't." But given that Polytron is a young company consisting of two people, and has been working on this one game for 5+ years, I would assume that the money needed for recertification is a pretty big blow to them. Even if they had the cash on hand to pay it right now, it's probably a hefty sum for such a small developer.

You can hate the MS policies all you want, but the fact is, it's a policy that has always existed for XBLA releases. Polytron would've/should've been aware of it. But that's really so beyond the point it's not even worth mentioning.

The game fucks up the save file. Microsoft doesn't fuck up the save file. The game fucks up the save file. This is Polytrons fault, simple as. This isn't an "oh shit, Gomez done got stuck up a tree! Better restart..." it's "I can no longer play this game".

I think it is pretty crappy of Phil to lay all the blame on MS. Phil knew the cost of patches all along, it wasn't some monstrous surprise that MS sprung on him all of a sudden. The fact is a bugged patch wasn't developed by MS, it was developed by Phil's team. The rare bug slipped through cert and affected the fans. With that said, the strange part to me is that MS doesn't have contingency plans for small changes to patches. I mean, this bug may simply be a few lines of code, or it could be a entire reworking of the save system. We don't know, so its hard to take a stand firmly on either side.

Wow, the number of people seeming to be on Microsoft's side in this is crazy. Any other problem and you'd all be, "Fuck you, Micro$hit!" One indie developer doesn't want to get boned in the ass by their crazy XBLA fees and everyone switches sides? "Fuck you, indie developer guy! We love Microsoft!"

This is Bizarro World. I'll buy your game, Phil.

Luckily I finished Fez the day before the patch was released. My save file is now corrupted though.

Neither party is blameless here, but, considering the resources available to each, this really should have been caught by Microsoft in the cert process. If not, what are Ms actually charging for? How can Ms justify those kinds of fees when they have clearly failed to test the patch properly before releasing it? With both teams at fault surely a compromise on the cost could've/should've been reached.

It's a shame that this whole mess, along with people's opinions on Fish's personality, might deter them from enjoying what is otherwise a very good game.

There's one screen in my version of Fez that runs at about 2 frames per second. It's barely playable at all. It's the clocktower level, where there are no fewer than FOUR anti-cubes. Thankfully the game is so glitched there that I was able to, very very slowly, pick up the same anti-cube four times, because it never registered as being gone. managed to 100% the game anyway. It's a sad problem in a game that otherwise runs perfectly and is maybe the best game of the year so far.

Look, I don't like to use this word a lot, because it's so often used to dismiss legitimate complaints, but a lot of you guys are really butthurt about stuff Phil Fish has said. I can't speak to the Japanese game industry one, but I'm a PC gaming-ass PC gamer, and I'm not going to get all flustered because Phil Fish once said something a little rude about PC gaming. Fez is going to get released on the PC and I'm going to buy it, and the fact that he may or may not feel exactly the same way as I do about the platform doesn't even enter into the equation. Obviously I can't tell you how to feel or how to spend your money, but expecting Phil Fish to apologize or else you won't buy his game is childish behavior.

@bvilleneuve said:

Look, I don't like to use this word a lot, because it's so often used to dismiss legitimate complaints, but a lot of you guys are really butthurt about stuff Phil Fish has said. I can't speak to the Japanese game industry one, but I'm a PC gaming-ass PC gamer, and I'm not going to get all flustered because Phil Fish once said something a little rude about PC gaming. Fez is going to get released on the PC and I'm going to buy it, and the fact that he may or may not feel exactly the same way as I do about the platform doesn't even enter into the equation. Obviously I can't tell you how to feel or how to spend your money, but expecting Phil Fish to apologize or else you won't buy his game is childish behavior.

I agree with you.

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Dawg, I don't think we can go down the road of calling Fez a hipster game. It's not super pretentious like something made by thatgamecompany (for the record, I loved Journey but fuck Flower). You may see Phil Fish as a hipster douche, but I don't think Fez is all that hipster-y. Although a Fez does seem something like a hipster would wear to be hipster-y...

Also, in the words of Donnie Darko, Microsoft can go "suck a fuck" because this is their fault, and between this and Dawnguard, fuck a Microsoft.

@bvilleneuve said:

Look, I don't like to use this word a lot, because it's so often used to dismiss legitimate complaints, but a lot of you guys are really butthurt about stuff Phil Fish has said. I can't speak to the Japanese game industry one, but I'm a PC gaming-ass PC gamer, and I'm not going to get all flustered because Phil Fish once said something a little rude about PC gaming. Fez is going to get released on the PC and I'm going to buy it, and the fact that he may or may not feel exactly the same way as I do about the platform doesn't even enter into the equation. Obviously I can't tell you how to feel or how to spend your money, but expecting Phil Fish to apologize or else you won't buy his game is childish behavior.

I agree with you.

Gamers, not Gamera, stupid phone. Though PC Gamera would be awesome to see.

@iAmJohn said:

@damnable_fiend

@iAmJohn said:

@deerokus said:

@iAmJohn: Well the main reason was that he thinks PCs are for spreadsheets.

It's almost like he had this game that he really wanted you to buy on 360 instead of waiting for it to potentially come out on PC or something. I thought PC gamers are supposed to be smart and able to read between the painfully obvious lines.

sure, but other developers release games on xbla exclusively without feeling the need to make stupid comments about other platforms to justify their decision.

Sure, but I also don't care because I'm not an idiot.

I don't see how paying attention to what a developer says makes me an idiot

I hope they release Fez on more platforms. I was finally going to pick up a 360 in the near future mainly for Fez, and Spelunky but maybe I can wait for PC releases now.

@Cirdain said:

@bvilleneuve said:

Look, I don't like to use this word a lot, because it's so often used to dismiss legitimate complaints, but a lot of you guys are really butthurt about stuff Phil Fish has said. I can't speak to the Japanese game industry one, but I'm a PC gaming-ass PC gamer, and I'm not going to get all flustered because Phil Fish once said something a little rude about PC gaming. Fez is going to get released on the PC and I'm going to buy it, and the fact that he may or may not feel exactly the same way as I do about the platform doesn't even enter into the equation. Obviously I can't tell you how to feel or how to spend your money, but expecting Phil Fish to apologize or else you won't buy his game is childish behavior.

I agree with you.

YOU'RE STUPED ><

No, I kid. I agree with you as well.

How many people did this affect? It says about 1% right? Phil Fish or not, measuring the cost to pay for the patch + the time to develop the patch against how many people it actually affects, I don't think many people would opt to pay for the patch. Especially considering that their profit from the game doesn't guarantee them to be rich. If they had time and money, of course they would. I just don't think that Phil Fish is trying to be an asshole or greedy about this incident. Also remember that there are two of them (right?) or at least that is what their website states.

A lot of people also act as if the game is completely broken, like it won't even work at all, patch or not. From what I hear, you can still beat the game.

I'll wait for the hopefully coming Steam version, because many have said it is a good game and I've always been interested in it.

I don't know man. I want to side with Fish, as the save file thing doesn't sound like something you could have reasonably tested for if it affects that few people.

But... I still forked over money for this game, and would like it to work. And it was released in kind of a shitty state that required the patch in the first place.

@ike7779: I heard months and months ago that the dev of Spelunky had at least planned on an eventual PC re-release once the XBLA version was complete since it's kinda an overhaul of the original free PC game. So wait a bit and you may get both of these fine games on PC :)

Oh hell yea I would definitely throw some money Polytron's way if it came to Steam.

Wow, that's fucking stupid.

@big_jon said:

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Except technically speaking, the game was pretty sloppy. Buggy, performed poorly, stuff like that.

This is not how you do business. If you want returning customers, you either fix your shit or compensate your mistakes somehow. Saying things like "it costs too much to fix it" is another way of saying "Fuck you, we want our money. Sucks to be you, customer."

I have bought XBLA games before and none of the had technical problems as big as in Fez. Those that did have noticeable bugs, fixed them with (in a few cases multiple) patches. What Polytron and Phill Fish are saying that they are not to be trusted in the future.

I wont be doing business with them in the future.

@VargasPrime: I suppose it's a warning to other small developers that these patches do cost money and you should take greater care in coding your game and managing your time.

I like that we're supposed to feel bad for Phil Fish. Maybe he wouldn't have to pay to patch if his game wasn't busted.

@MordeaniisChaos said:

Wow, that's fucking stupid.

@big_jon said:

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Except technically speaking, the game was pretty sloppy. Buggy, performed poorly, stuff like that.

It had issues, but the internet likes to focus on the negative too much.

People have been awfully quick to deem the $40,000 patch fee "reasonable." What's so reasonable about it? If other download platforms are able to function perfectly well without such a fee (not even getting into the other bullshit hoops to jump through on Microsoft's platform), in what way is Microsoft's fee reasonable?

That fee was designed and implemented in a world where indie games were barely a thing. The $40,000 patch fee is something a big publisher can just easily swallow. When it's two guys pouring their hearts into a game, $40,000 is basically impossible.

Whatever. The Steam release will come out, it'll be a runaway success a la Alan Wake and Super Meat Boy, and maybe some of that cash money will go towards fixing the game on the gimped XBLA platform. Microsoft should do some real soul searching.

@eccentrix: If he didn't like the XBLA terms with regards to certification fees there are other avenues to release indie games on that don't charge ridiculous fees. If he isn't patching Fez because he doesn't have forty grand then he should say that instead of trying to shift the blame onto Microsoft.

@MordeaniisChaos said:

Wow, that's fucking stupid.

@big_jon said:

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Except technically speaking, the game was pretty sloppy. Buggy, performed poorly, stuff like that.

It had issues, but the internet likes to focus on the negative too much.

@wilsonk said:

@eccentrix: If he isn't patching Fez because he doesn't have forty grand then he should say that instead of trying to shift the blame onto Microsoft.

That's how I interpreted this thing. He's saying he's sorry, but he doesn't have the money Microsoft is asking for.

@Alex said:

@DeanoXD: He's literally the company's mouthpiece. He's the only spokesperson for that company.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm not sure what is offensive about the term "mouthpiece" especially when he is exactly that. If you had said "loudmouth" (while somewhat true), then I would have understood.

This just makes me happier and happier I sold my xbox and have switched to Steam/PC gaming. I eagerly await for Fez to show up on the Steam store.

Also I'm fairly certain a buggy product that gets patched to stability is always better than a product that cant' be patched because the developer can't afford it....$40,000 seems...excessive.

40k to check if an update doesn't brick the console is bs.

Paying for patches is super dumb, but i'm sure they made enough money off the sales of Fez to be able to afford a patch. Deliberately not fixing your games problems is pretty shitty.

So first he says PCs aren't for gaming, and then he praises Steam?

What?

In a way, it's good that we finally have an example to point to of why XBLA/PSN's $40k patches are a problem. I would buy this game if it were fixed, but will I buy it when the latest patch has a well publicized game breaking bug? No, I don't. Not even if it is a small chance.

It'd be better for Microsoft to make money by selling games to customers rather than extorting it from developers, if you ask me. I'm sure even with a much lower fee, or none, developers would not patch 5 times a day and destroy the stability of the system. They have better things to do, patches don't earn money - only good will for future games.

It'd be nice if we lived in a world where every developer releases perfect products that never need a patch, but... games are not as simple as they once were. Fish did make a buggy game, but come on, he's hardly the first. I don't think a shoestring operation should have to give up the price of a luxury car just for the privilege to improve their product, and the XBLA service overall. It's a bit different for Konami to pay that money to fix their mistakes than it is for Polytron.

Hope it goes to another platform, and achieves better success. The game still has good exposure in the community, for now.

either way, I get the feeling that Microsoft does not deserve that kind of money for such a simple patch

Over/under on Phil Fish clearly not feeling the love, and taking his business elsewhere next time? Say Steam or perhaps OUYA.

(Oh who am I kidding, "next time" in Fish world will be 2038)

@zombiesatemycereal said:

Paying for patches is super dumb, but i'm sure they made enough money off the sales of Fez to be able to afford a patch. Deliberately not fixing your games problems is pretty shitty.

Oh, "you're sure" they made enough, those couple of dudes, to be able to shell out forty thousand dollars. Well, i'll just call them and let them know the good news. They probably lost the money in their couch cushions, and will thank you profusely.

Duder, they're not some giant developer, and this wasn't a fluke thing like with Minecraft. Fish himself came out and said (well before this announcement here) that the game was successful, but it hadn't made them rich or anything. It jsut kept them solvent and maybe made up a bit for the five years of labor put in. Try to know what's up before making baseless assertion.

I think Tim Schafer said an update for one of their games cost them $40,000, blame M$ for those fees.

That's fucking incredible that it costs any significant amount to release a patch.

@Parsnip: Isn't that what being a modern gamer is all about now, reading a few articles and deciding you know all about how the business works because you buy a few games (mostly used) over the course of a year, and suddenly you know how everything works in the world of video game development and publishing.

It would be nice if the lesson learned was that whether you are a large or small company, testing and quality assurance must be vital parts to your budget and development cycle.

I fear the only lesson learned will be, "boo hiss Microsoft!"

@Hailinel said:

@big_jon

@MordeaniisChaos said:

Wow, that's fucking stupid.

@big_jon said:

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Except technically speaking, the game was pretty sloppy. Buggy, performed poorly, stuff like that.

It had issues, but the internet likes to focus on the negative too much.

That's funny, because when the game was still new, everyone and their dog was tripping over themselves to praise Fez and its supposed genius. The negativity is just a result of people coming back down to Earth.

What's more funny is that you are assuming that the people who praised it are the same that "dislike" it now.

If you're actually going to argue that the internet isn't an unnecessarily negative place where people like to poo poo on everything the majority of the time, and blow things way out of proportion, like Mass Effect 3's ending, then you are a crazy person.

It sure is easy to bitch and whine about the quality of things when you put no work into them right? I would assume that this guy has done almost everything that is humanly possible to make a great game, yet people will still scoff and shit on his effort because they can, and it is easy.

Yeah so............ when will this be on Steam?

bunch of pricks. they really need to change the way they deal with xbox live games for the next console . .

@Cirdain said:

@CosmicQueso

@VargasPrime said:

I think some people are really presumptuous to think that Polytron are just automatically obligated (and financially able) to pay that cost right now.

Of course they are obligated. If it was EA or Sony or Valve, people would be screaming bloody murder and boycotts.

Wow, wait sorry. I. I don't quite understand what you did there. Obligation of patching requires money that they don't have. Were you agreeing??

As a paying customer, it shouldn't matter how much money a developer has or doesn't have. My $15 to Fish is no less valuable than my $15 to someone like EA. The burden is on Fish to earn my money. The idea that he's getting a free pass from so many here for producing a game that has a major flaw that he knows can impact hundreds if not thousands of players is disgusting. Consumers should demand the same value from Fish as they do from any content provider. And to not do so is pure hypocrisy.

EDIT - And yes, by agreeing to come out on this platform with its terms and conditions (which have not changed since he signed the agreement) he has no right to claim poverty and to point the finger at third parties. He made these agreements, he created the product and ultimately he has the responsibility to do right by his customers. Had he gone with other services he'd be able to patch no problem. But he didn't. He wanted the benefit of going exclusive with MS without also taking on the additional burdens that go along with it. His choice, his responsibility. It is not ours to suffer with the negative impacts of his business choices.

@Beaudacious said:

A patch costing tens of thousands of dollars? Really Microsoft?

Hell, it's at the core of the console model - the hardware is cheap and sold at a loss for the first long while, so they have to find the money elsewhere. I guess this is a pretty good example of where that can be (other than licensing on the games, high prices on peripherals and a subscription fee on online gaming)...

BTW, maybe all this patch fee nonsense is another part of the explanation for why Valve suddenly got in bed with Sony after the early shitstorm... Nobody loves patching games as much as Valve does.

The last paragraph is so goddamn true. What was that quote from him a while back saying something to the effect of that Fez is intended to be played on a controller from the couch, and that's why he wasn't into a PC release? Sounds like he might have been under the Microsoft spell at the time.

Knew waiting for Steam would pay off.

@CosmicQueso said:

@Cirdain said:

@CosmicQueso

@VargasPrime said:

I think some people are really presumptuous to think that Polytron are just automatically obligated (and financially able) to pay that cost right now.

Of course they are obligated. If it was EA or Sony or Valve, people would be screaming bloody murder and boycotts.

Wow, wait sorry. I. I don't quite understand what you did there. Obligation of patching requires money that they don't have. Were you agreeing??

As a paying customer, it shouldn't matter how much money a developer has or doesn't have. My $15 to Fish is no less valuable than my $15 to someone like EA. The burden is on Fish to earn my money. The idea that he's getting a free pass from so many here for producing a game that has a major flaw that he knows can impact hundreds if not thousands of players is disgusting. Consumers should demand the same value from Fish as they do from any content provider. And to not do so is pure hypocrisy.

EDIT - And yes, by agreeing to come out on this platform with its terms and conditions (which have not changed since he signed the agreement) he has no right to claim poverty and to point the finger at third parties. He made these agreements, he created the product and ultimately he has the responsibility to do right by his customers. Had he gone with other services he'd be able to patch no problem. But he didn't. He wanted the benefit of going exclusive with MS without also taking on the additional burdens that go along with it. His choice, his responsibility. It is not ours to suffer with the negative impacts of his business choices.

This actually makes... sense...