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    Final Fantasy X

    Game » consists of 13 releases. Released Jul 19, 2001

    The first Final Fantasy game for the PlayStation 2 brought cinematic quality to the series with voice acting and fully 3D environments. The story follows Tidus, a young man transported one thousand years into the future to find a world quite unlike his own.

    Estranged Parents and Whale-Monsters: a Close Look at Final Fantasy X

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    thatpinguino

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    Edited By thatpinguino  Staff

    Hey everybody, this essay is the final part of my look at the Final Fantasy series's use of broken homes and estrangement. Please take a look at my earlier work on FFVIII and FFIX if you want some other looks at how the series has handled these themes. I'm going to go into extreme depth in discussing FFX, so spoilers abound. I hope you enjoy my analysis!

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    I cannot help but feel that it is FFX’s fusion of the personal with the apocalyptic that makes the game’s complex story so compelling. FFX follows FFVIII and FFIX in combining a world-spanning adventure with a male protagonist’s deeply personal struggle to reconnect with his father. In FFVIII, Squall completes a lengthy journey of sorceress-fighting and self-discovery, only to find that he was following in his father’s footsteps at every turn, down to falling in love with the daughter of his father’s first love. In FFIX, Zidane spends the entire game unknowingly opposing his father and brother, only to further reject them both when their familial relations are revealed. Unlike the orphaned protagonists of FFVIII and IX, there is no mystery as to who Tidus’s father is: from the beginning of FFX we know both that Tidus’s father is a blitzball player named Jecht and that Tidus hates him; yet, plenty of drama still surrounds Tidus’s relationship with his father. Once Tidus ventures to Spira it is revealed that Jecht is the monstrous creature Sin, the beast whose destruction is the main thrust of FFX’s story.

    This guy is the source of a whole lot of turmoil
    This guy is the source of a whole lot of turmoil

    Thus, the central save-the-world plot of FFX sets Tidus on an inevitable collision course with his dad. Over the course of FFX, Tidus grows to know his absentee father by interacting with the people whom his dad affected. Tidus’s painful memories of a drunken egomaniac clash with the accounts of Jecht’s heroism that Tidus receives throughout Spira, forcing him to reconsider his appraisal of his dad. While Tidus never fully reconciles with his father, nor does he forgive Jecht for the abuse he experienced in his childhood, Tidus does gain an understanding of and respect for the father whom he never truly knew. Tidus’s image of Ject is shown to be a caricature, a distortion that amplifies Jecht’s worst qualities while hiding the rest. In addition, Tidus’s image of his father is outdated by the time he arrives in Spira; Jecht grew tremendously during his decade in Spira and Tidus’s image does not account for that growth. Through Tidus and his father Jecht, FFX demonstrates how children build their parents into larger-than-life figures, yet that initial image does not necessarily hold true over the years. Even parents still have room for growth.

    Several short flashbacks offer glimpses into Tidus’s limited time with his father. These glimpses form the basis of Tidus’s understanding of who Jecht is as a person and, based on what we see, it is no surprise that Tidus hates his father. During Tidus’s trip to Luca, he remembers his father showing him a blitzball shot that he invented. Jecht says, “Well, well, trying to follow in my footsteps, are you? I usually charge for lessons, you know... That shot is done... like this… You can't do it, kid. But don't worry, my boy. You're not the only one. No one else can do it. I'm the best!” Despite Tidus trying his best to emulate his father, Jecht responds to his adolescent son by emasculating him. Where there should be teaching there is bragging. Where there should be encouragement there is shame. For Tidus, moments like these crystallize his image of his father as a bully and a braggart.

    In addition to belittling Tidus with his overbearing personality, Jecht was also an alcoholic and his alcoholism threatened to ruin his blitzball career and his family. After Sin destroys the crusaders near Djose, Tidus has a flashback while chasing after Sin. In the flashback Tidus and Jecht have the following exchange:

     Tidus: "They say you don't practice anymore, that you're gonna retire."
     Jecht: "Let them talk. I'm still the best."
     Tidus: "They say you're no good 'cause you drink all the time."
     Jecht: "I can quit drinkin' whenever I want!"
     Tidus: "Then do it now."
     Jecht: "What did you say?"
     Tidus: "You just said you can!"
     Jecht: "Heh. Tomorrow, maybe."
     Tidus: "Why not today?"
     Jecht: "Why do today what you can leave for tomorrow? There he goes again...crying!"

    Though Jecht does not seem to be an especially violent or belligerent drunk, his apathy still damages a young Tidus. Tidus is confronted with his supposedly great athlete of a father wasting his gifts by drinking and lounging. Jecht cannot even lie to his child about straightening out his life. Had Jecht given Tidus some impression that he was struggling with his drinking or trying to recover his former glory, perhaps Tidus would have grown to see his father as flawed, but largely well-meaning. However, because Jecht seems to revel in his sloth and inebriation, Tidus sees him as deadbeat and a showoff who belittled his son at every opportunity.

    Though his hair is fabulous, he is crying on the inside
    Though his hair is fabulous, he is crying on the inside

    Beyond the direct damage that Jecht inflicted on Tidus through his failings as a parent, he also dealt a bit of collateral damage when he left Zanarkand. Tidus’s mom was deeply in love with Jecht. So in love in fact, that she often ignored her son whenever her husband was around. This led Tidus to “resent him, even hate him” for stealing his mother’s attention. Once Jecht left Zanarkand, Tidus’s mom “just lost her energy” and seemed to give up on life. From Tidus’s perspective, Jecht was responsible for his mother’s unhappiness as well as his own since, as far as he knew, Jecht either abandoned him and his mother or died training (basically just another form of abandonment). Jecht couldn’t even leave without breaking something.

    As a result of Jecht’s many abuses, Tidus formulated a monstrous interpretation of his father. This construct emphasized all of Jecht’s crimes at the expense of his humanity. During Titus’s time in Besaid, he has a dream that showcases his exaggerated image of his father. Tidus dreams that he is on a dock with both Yuna and Rikku, deciding which of his minor crushes he would like to pursue when big, bad dad shows up. Dream Jecht says, “You, with a woman? You can't even catch a ball! Oh, what's the matter? Gonna cry again? Cry, cry. That's the only thing you're good for!" This dream tormentor is comically petty, combining Jecht’s bullying and his go-to insult (“Gonna cry again?”), essentially saying Tidus couldn’t even get a woman in his dreams. Despite how exaggerated this version of Jecht seems, when Jecht shows up in this dream Tidus shrinks down to a child again, cowering in the face of his father. In this scene it is clear just how much repressed anger Tidus harbors towards his father, and just how much of a boogeyman Jecht is to Tidus. In making Jecht so cartoonish in this dream, the developers show how extreme Tidus’s interpretation of Jecht is. Tidus sees Jecht not as a person, but instead as a symbol of a time when he felt like a powerless child. Though Jecht was a bad father by most accounts, he certainly was not as petty as Tidus imagines.

    That is one heck of a personal demon
    That is one heck of a personal demon

    Tidus’s issues with his father also manifest themselves in another, more dramatic fashion: Sin. The giant whale monster that terrorizes the world of Spira is Jecht…literally. After leaving Luca, Auron tells Tidus about his father: “he is no longer human. But then... I felt something of Jecht there in that shell, couldn't you? You must have felt him when you came in contact with Sin… Sin is Jecht.” Sin functions as both a central antagonist for the game and as a larger-than-life metaphor for Titus’s issues with his father. Sin is a representation of the monstrous image that Tidus harbors of his father: at Sin’s core is Jecht, but the great danger is all of the artifice around him. While Jecht is physically “no longer human” the image of Jecht that Tidus carries with him for much of the game never was. Tidus’s image of his father is based on a snapshot of Jecht from 10 years before the events of the game. By the time Tidus arrives in Spira, Jecht is no longer the man he envisioned. Jecht did a great deal of growing while on pilgrimage in Spira and Tidus’s static image of him does not consider that growth. Sin trails Tidus throughout his journey to Zanarkand, surfacing in Zanarkand, Baaj, Kilika, Djose, Macalania, and at the final encounter. In all of these encounters Tidus feels a little bit of his father inside the monster. Like Tidus’s dream version of his father, Sin is one part Jecht and a whole lot of something else. In fact, during the final encounter with Sin, there are several boss fights and full levels that occur inside of Sin before the party even encounters Jecht. Much like how Tidus has to cut through his own childish conception of who his father is to finally understand his dad in the game’s final moments, the party has to physically cut through layers of Sin to defeat Jecht.

    Tidus’s static image of Ject is challenged by several different perspectives that Tidus is presented with during his pilgrimage. Thus, over the course of the game, the player is able to gradually see beyond Tidus’s prejudices about his dad. Each of these different perspectives is necessary in order to understand who Jecht really was as a person. One such perspective is Yuna’s. After being insulted by an opposing blitzball team in Luca, Tidus and Yuna have the following exchange:

     Tidus: “Putting people down... They're as bad as my old man!”
     Yuna: "But, Sir Jecht was a kind and gentle man!"
     Tidus: "Well, not my Jecht."

    While Tidus bristles at the mere reminder of his father, Yuna contradicts his appraisal. It is telling that Tidus replies “not my Jecht,” as it foregrounds the difference between Jecht, the man, and Tidus’s Jecht. Yuna knew a kind and gentle man who protected her father during his pilgrimage, while Tidus only knew the disappointing figure he saw in Zanarkand. In a way, Yuna’s interpretation of Jecht is the opposite extreme of Tidus’s. Yuna was also a child when she met Jecht and her interactions with him were also limited. However, Yuna formed her perception of him based upon a few positive interactions, while Tidus’s were negative. This causes Yuna to view Jecht as an honorable hero, instead of a drunken loser. Neither Titus nor Yuna’s conception of Jecht are particularly nuanced, but by seeing how different each of them feel about Jecht it is easy to see how much one’s opinion of another person can be tainted, both positively and negatively, by a handful of firsthand experiences.

    Auron, Tidus’s main father figure in FFX, also complicates Tidus’s simple image of his father. Auron is the only adult that Tidus meets that had a peer relationship with Jecht, making him one of the most reliable sources on Jecht’s personality. Many of the anecdotes that Auron provides about Jecht paint a confident if naïve man with a strong moral compass (which of course also describes Tidus). One such story occurs on the Mi’ihen Highroad after the party learns of a monster roaming the road. Auron and Tidus have the following conversation:

     Tidus: "A large fiend... Let's go get him!"
     Auron: "Why?"
     Tidus: "It's the right thing to do."
     Auron: "It's the right thing to do?"
     Tidus: "What'd I say now?"
     Auron: "Jecht said that a lot, too. And every time he said it, it meant trouble for Braska and me."

    Now based on Tidus’s memories of his father “it’s the right thing to do” does not seem like something he would say at all, let alone “a lot”. However, Auron spent what was likely months journeying with Jecht during Braska’s pilgrimage. During that time, the two men bonded and grew from begrudging allies into good friends. Although Auron did not fully trust Jecht at the beginning of their journey together, he eventually grew to respect the blitzball player from Zanarkand. By the time Tidus arrives in Spira, Auron has subsumed Jecht’s fathering responsibilities. He passes down messages to Tidus that Jecht could not.

     Auron: "Jecht loved you."
     Tidus: "Oh, come on, please!"
     Auron: “He just didn’t know how to express it, he said.”

    Auron is able to tell Tidus about his father in ways that Jecht could not articulate himself. Jecht was kind, caring, and selfless, but he was not eloquent. Through Auron’s perspective we can see many of the positive traits that Tidus was unable to see during his time with his dad.

    Those Jecht Spheres hold a ton of character development. Find them!
    Those Jecht Spheres hold a ton of character development. Find them!

    There is one last bit of evidence that Jecht did not stay the monster that Tidus envisioned him to be: objective recordings. Throughout the world of Spira you can find several videos that Jecht recorded during his time with Auron and Braska. In these recordings Jecht goes from a drunk in a cell and grows into the hero that Yuna remembers. Jecht quits drinking. He makes promises to go back and see his son. He stands up for the weak. Jecht even comes close to openly expressing love for his son. What seems like every key moment of Jecht’s journey is captured on these videos, or in living memories in Zanarkand. These recordings allow the player to see how similar Tidus and Jecht are in personality and action by paralleling Jecht’s videos with moments in Tidus’s own journey. For example, Jecht encounters the same monster on the Mi’ihen Highroad that Tidus does and his reaction is to defeat it, saying, “Hey, come on! It's the right thing to do! Everyone's depending on us. Besides, it's good practice.” On top of simply connecting Tidus and Jecht, these videos also allow Jecht’s unfiltered personality to shine through. He is exposed in these videos in a way that reveals a man struggling with his flaws while exhibiting his strengths at every turn: an actual, complete human being, rather than a caricature. In these few optional pieces of side content, Jecht’s full range of emotion is laid bare and you get a sense of what Tidus missed out on when Jecht left: a great father. Who knows whether Jecht would have become a great man without going to Spira, but it is clear that the Jecht that exists in FFX would have left a completely different impression than the one Tidus brings into the game. These recordings bridge the gap between Tidus’s monstrous father and the great hero Jecht that is known throughout Spira.

    The very last moments of FFX see Tidus brought face to face with his father one last time. He followed his father’s footsteps for much of the game, eventually outpacing his dad (in a similar fashion to Squall in FFVIII). However, Tidus’s reunion with his father is necessarily complex. Tidus finally tells his father “I hate you,” which feels like an exorcism of Tidus’s Jecht-shaped boogeyman. Tidus is finally able to stand up to his father for all of the pain he went through as a child. Jecht is still unable to tell his son how he feels before they clash, but after Jecht is defeated, he says “That's right. You are my son, after all.” This is as close as Jecht gets to directly telling his son he loves him or that he is proud of him. Yet, he still cannot bring himself to do it. Though saying “You are my son, after all” carries some of his meaning, his inability to emotionally communicate with his son proves to be the one flaw that Jecht never overcomes. Despite Jecht’s failure, Tidus replies to his father, “You know...for the first time, I'm glad...to have you as my father.” Holding his father in his arms Tidus is able to finally see past his decade-long hate to see the tragic hero that his father had become. This all is the reconciliation that FFX provides. It is far from perfect, and the game leaves you with the sense that there are volumes of words that this father and son want to say, but don’t. Tidus and Jecht do not end the game as friends, but they do share a mutual respect and understanding that was expertly created through a world spanning adventure.

    Final Fantasy X does an excellent job of showing how great an impact formative experience can have on a child. Tidus’s entire relationship with his father is framed and marred by transgressions his father carelessly committed a decade before the events of the game. Those few moments spawned Tidus’s lifelong grudge against his father and turned his father into a symbol. For Tidus, Jecht represented personal weakness, laziness, and selfishness; all of these impressions took years and tremendous life experience to overcome. The prejudices of youth are sewn deep and are difficult to uproot. However, in the decade that Tidus is separated from his father, his father grew into a much better man than the one who left Zanarkand. It just takes Tidus the entire game to realize his father’s growth. It requires a lot of craft to turn a story about fighting a giant whale-beast into a metaphor for a son reconciling with his father, but FFX does just that, and isn’t the world better for it?

    All quotes were found here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/197344-final-fantasy-x/faqs/43142

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    thatpinguino

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    #1 thatpinguino  Staff

    I added a link to my quote source. Citations ya'll!

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    EuanDewar

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    Very well written thing here duder.

    I just very recently beat the HD version of FFX, I played it on the PS2 when it first came out but I was like 6 at the time and didn't have the patience for it. I hate to come into a blog all about FFX just to talk mess about it but... I didn't much like it.

    I really struggled to hold any strong feelings for even a single character. I couldn't even dislike Tidus as much as some people do, he and the rest of the cast were just so plain to me. I enjoyed the gameplay a lot more than I did the story but still towards the end I began to tire of it. Especially with the last boss who I died on twice and then somehow beat on my third time despite not switching my strategy up at all.

    I also played FFX-2 when it first came out and likewise didn't get very far in it due to lack of patience but I do remember liking it more than FFX. I've only played a tidbit of the HD version but I'm confident enough in saying that I still prefer it over it's predecessor. I can definitely see how uh different it is to FFX being a bit off-putting to big fans of that game but it's just so colourful and carefree in every aspect that I cant help but like it more than it's serious bigger brother.

    Still though, I'm glad to see you enjoyed it and were able to find things in it that inspired you to write at length about it. Always admirable.

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    thatpinguino

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    #3 thatpinguino  Staff

    @euandewar: You didn't even like Auron? I don't really enjoy most of the characters in FFX, but Auron's general bad-ass-itude was cool. What stands out to me about X is the tone and the atmosphere of a bunch of its levels. X does a great job of communicating melancholy and resignation; then contrasting that malaise with defiant hope.

    I also liked X-2, but I liked it for the combat system since it was so fast-paced and interesting, despite the dress-up aspect.

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    EuanDewar

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    @thatpinguino: I agree about the atmosphere, regret not mentioning that cause I did actually quite enjoy that aspect of the game too. And no, not even Auron. There was nothing wrong with his characterisation its just there was nothing strong about it for me either.

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    thatpinguino

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    #5 thatpinguino  Staff

    @euandewar: I think my main issue with the cast of FFX is that they are largely one-note characters. Rikku is almost always peppy. Kimari almost never talks. Lulu is almost always dower. Auron is always doing his bad-ass routine. Tidus can be a bit grating. For me, Wakka questioning his faith and Yuna grappling with her sacrifice are the most compelling character developments. Also since Sin is more a force of nature than a villain, the game relies on Seymour to fill in the villainy gap and he just isn't that compelling. Seymour seems like he flunked out of the Sephiroth/Kefka/Kuja school of egomaniacal craziness.

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    thatpinguino

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    #6  Edited By thatpinguino  Staff

    @euandewar: I think my main issue with the cast of FFX is that they are largely one-note characters. Rikku is almost always peppy. Kimari almost never talks. Lulu is almost always dower. Auron is always doing his bad-ass routine. Tidus can be a bit grating. For me, Wakka questioning his faith and Yuna grappling with her sacrifice are the most compelling character developments. Also since Sin is more a force of nature than a villain, the game relies on Seymour to fill in the villainy gap and he just isn't that compelling. Seymour seems like he flunked out of the Sephiroth/Kefka/Kuja school of egomaniacal craziness.

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    Sydlanel

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    Very well written thing here duder.

    I just very recently beat the HD version of FFX, I played it on the PS2 when it first came out but I was like 6 at the time and didn't have the patience for it. I hate to come into a blog all about FFX just to talk mess about it but... I didn't much like it.

    I really struggled to hold any strong feelings for even a single character. I couldn't even dislike Tidus as much as some people do, he and the rest of the cast were just so plain to me. I enjoyed the gameplay a lot more than I did the story but still towards the end I began to tire of it. Especially with the last boss who I died on twice and then somehow beat on my third time despite not switching my strategy up at all.

    I also played FFX-2 when it first came out and likewise didn't get very far in it due to lack of patience but I do remember liking it more than FFX. I've only played a tidbit of the HD version but I'm confident enough in saying that I still prefer it over it's predecessor. I can definitely see how uh different it is to FFX being a bit off-putting to big fans of that game but it's just so colourful and carefree in every aspect that I cant help but like it more than it's serious bigger brother.

    Still though, I'm glad to see you enjoyed it and were able to find things in it that inspired you to write at length about it. Always admirable.

    you know, I had the same issue about FF12, but X really caught my attention... I didn't really like any character particularly, but I definitely cared for the story as a whole. I also felt Yuna was a pretty strong lead, I think she had more depth than expected (yes.. maybe Tidus is the lead, but i felt that he was more dragging along than leading). I found Wakka probably had the most interesting arc, but also the most repellent personality.... I did like Auron, simply because of how rather atypical he was, but it's true that he was a bit one sided.
    I have not played it since it came out though, so maybe today it would be a different story.

    As @thatpinguino says, Seymour Guado was a joke, not only were his fights rather easy, but his david bowieness, and his never ending returns made him look like a scooby doo villain.

    I personally really cared for The Jecht /Tidus conflict, but considering the rest of the game I felt the final encounter with him came a bit out of the left field... Not completely strange but slightly unexpected.
    Anyhow, I'm planning to pick the HD version up at some point... might refresh my memory about some of the specifics, as right now I can't really remember all the plot points.

    Great read tho mr. non flying arctic bird.

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    Descends

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    #8  Edited By Descends

    nice blog post! I never played FFX but I was wondering as I read this about how important this was to the main story? Rorie said on the quick look of the re-release that FFX was really Yuna's story. Was the Tidus-Jecht struggle something that was just going on on the side?

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    thatpinguino

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    #9 thatpinguino  Staff

    @descends: I think the Tidus/Jecht stuff is central to the main story and not following it really makes Tidus insufferable. If you don't follow how he became so whiny he can really drag the game down. I would agree that Yuna is the more compelling character of the two leads, but she, like all too many female leads, is too often used as a damsel in distress who must be saved. Her reserved behavior in X really makes her personality shift in X-2 stand out.

    @sydlanel: Yeah I didn't especially love FFXII because I never connected with any of the characters, but to be fair 2 of the 6 playable characters in that game have no business being main characters at all. Van and Panello are so far from being important to that game's plot its hilarious. I think Seymour is yet another in a long line of vanity to the max Japanese villains and his general lack of humanity is a real detriment to the game. The final Jecht fight was a bit weird, but then the final level is a bit weird. I mean there is a freaking city inside of Sin! Talk about odd level design. I suppose that calls back to Chrono Trigger and the inside of Lavos's shell, but the inside of giant mosters in JRPGs sure are weird.

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    thatpinguino

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    #10 thatpinguino  Staff

    I think this is my last FF essay for a while. I don't have any other topics that I haven't already covered in some other form. If anyone knows if any of the more recent FF games deal with broken homes and or amnesia I would love to know. I haven't played the 13 series and 12 is a blur.

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    Slag

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    I think this is my last FF essay for a while. I don't have any other topics that I haven't already covered in some other form. If anyone knows if any of the more recent FF games deal with broken homes and or amnesia I would love to know. I haven't played the 13 series and 12 is a blur.

    Well

    Spoilers obviously

    In 13 Hope's mother dies at the very beginning and he spends basically the entire game blaming Snow for her death whilst plotting revenge.

    In 12 Vaan and Penelo are more or less street rat orphans, Ashe's betrothed is dead and Fran is more or less rejected by her people the Viera.

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    thatpinguino

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    #12 thatpinguino  Staff

    @slag: I couldn't stand Hope for most of the game, although I suppose he had good reason to be annoying. Does he get over his turmoil in an interesting way?

    As for FF12, Vaan and Penello seemed to be the least essential main characters of any of the modern FF games. Neither of them really had any reason to be involved in the main plot other than Square was afraid of making a game staring middle aged people. I don't even remember them getting fleshed out back-stories beyond the street urchin and sky-pirate thing. That is accurate, correct?

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    Slag

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    @slag: I couldn't stand Hope for most of the game, although I suppose he had good reason to be annoying. Does he get over his turmoil in an interesting way?

    As for FF12, Vaan and Penello seemed to be the least essential main characters of any of the modern FF games. Neither of them really had any reason to be involved in the main plot other than Square was afraid of making a game staring middle aged people. I don't even remember them getting fleshed out back-stories beyond the street urchin and sky-pirate thing. That is accurate, correct?

    How far did you get in 13?

    I haven't actually finished 12, I burned myself out around 85 hours in. But I believe your take on those two is more or less right.

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    thatpinguino

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    #14 thatpinguino  Staff

    @slag: I quit after the tutorial, which is to say after 20 HOURS. I just couldn't bring myself to care about anyone other than Saz and even he was not enough. I think I was up to them going to Pulse.

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    Slag

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    @slag: I quit after the tutorial, which is to say after 20 HOURS. I just couldn't bring myself to care about anyone other than Saz and even he was not enough. I think I was up to them going to Pulse.

    Hmmm I didn't come close to getting to Pulse in 20 hours but that could be due to playstyle difference. Do you remember what chapter you were in? (trying to avoid potentially spoiling anything here).

    totally agree Sazh was the best/most interesting character, still makes sad they didn't use him much 13-2.

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    #16 thatpinguino  Staff

    @slag: The last thing I remember was getting access to all 6 part members and the full leveling system. I think the party was boarding a ship of some kind? I've tried to reclaim the brain space I allocated to FF13.

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    @thatpinguino:

    chapter 10 possibly then?

    in that case going to guess you saw most of the resolution of Hope's development on that issue.

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    #18  Edited By thatpinguino  Staff

    @slag: Was his entire resolution trying to kill Snow and then realizing that Snow wasn't the one to blame. Maybe if the characters in 13 weren't so 1 dimensional I would have seen that game through. You can see what Hope's arch is going to be from a mile away, so you spend hours waiting for him to get to where you know he is going to go.

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    @slag: Was his entire resolution trying to kill Snow and then realizing that Snow wasn't the one to blame. Maybe if the characters in 13 weren't so 1 dimensional I would have seen that game through. You can see what Hope's arch is going to be from a mile away, so you spend hours waiting for him to get to where you know he is going to go.

    Pretty much. I don't know if they are anymore more one dimensional than previous FF games. Just maybe more noticeable with voice acting. Hope is, but he's 13. Vanille and Sazh I didn't think were. Snow gets development in later games. Lightning seems to be fairl one note, but she's the player avatar character. Fang just feels undeveloped although with potential. I haven't finished Lighting Returns, but arguably the series' best developed character is barely in 13 (Serah).

    My largest complaint with 13, was that I felt the story really lost steam right about where you stopped playing and never recovered.

    I still really liked 13 though. But I'm definitely positively biased towards FF games, been with the series since day 1 game 1.

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    #20 thatpinguino  Staff

    @slag: Maybe if I saw 13 through to the end I would feel differently, but unfortunately the setting and the endless jargon really turned me off.

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    @slag said:

    @thatpinguino said:

    @slag: Was his entire resolution trying to kill Snow and then realizing that Snow wasn't the one to blame. Maybe if the characters in 13 weren't so 1 dimensional I would have seen that game through. You can see what Hope's arch is going to be from a mile away, so you spend hours waiting for him to get to where you know he is going to go.

    Pretty much. I don't know if they are anymore more one dimensional than previous FF games. Just maybe more noticeable with voice acting. Hope is, but he's 13. Vanille and Sazh I didn't think were. Snow gets development in later games. Lightning seems to be fairl one note, but she's the player avatar character. Fang just feels undeveloped although with potential. I haven't finished Lighting Returns, but arguably the series' best developed character is barely in 13 (Serah).

    My largest complaint with 13, was that I felt the story really lost steam right about where you stopped playing and never recovered.

    I still really liked 13 though. But I'm definitely positively biased towards FF games, been with the series since day 1 game 1.

    Lightning's development in XIII, at least in part, comes from learning to understand others better. She starts off as a total asshole to Snow and doesn't know what her sister sees in him. But over the course of the game, she comes to realize that yes, Snow can be a dope, but he's got his good qualities, and she learns to be more accepting regarding what her sister and Snow want.

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    @hailinel said:

    @slag said:

    @thatpinguino said:

    @slag: Was his entire resolution trying to kill Snow and then realizing that Snow wasn't the one to blame. Maybe if the characters in 13 weren't so 1 dimensional I would have seen that game through. You can see what Hope's arch is going to be from a mile away, so you spend hours waiting for him to get to where you know he is going to go.

    Pretty much. I don't know if they are anymore more one dimensional than previous FF games. Just maybe more noticeable with voice acting. Hope is, but he's 13. Vanille and Sazh I didn't think were. Snow gets development in later games. Lightning seems to be fairl one note, but she's the player avatar character. Fang just feels undeveloped although with potential. I haven't finished Lighting Returns, but arguably the series' best developed character is barely in 13 (Serah).

    My largest complaint with 13, was that I felt the story really lost steam right about where you stopped playing and never recovered.

    I still really liked 13 though. But I'm definitely positively biased towards FF games, been with the series since day 1 game 1.

    Lightning's development in XIII, at least in part, comes from learning to understand others better. She starts off as a total asshole to Snow and doesn't know what her sister sees in him. But over the course of the game, she comes to realize that yes, Snow can be a dope, but he's got his good qualities, and she learns to be more accepting regarding what her sister and Snow want.

    You're right. I was being too glib, I was thinking more about her character design. I thought her character was deliberately understated to try to avoid being potentially offputting to the player, since I think Square might have been concerned how a female lead might go over with the male audience. I felt like Alli Hillis might have been coached to play her a bit monotone on purpose.

    Lightning definitely was self absorbed in general early on. I felt it was when she realized how her accidental enabling of Hope's destructive rage was hurting him (chapter 5 I think?), that she knew she needed to think about what was best for others as well not just her own desires. Which led to as you said, her putting aside her personal feelings about Snow for the sake of her sister's happiness.

    And then of course by 13-2, she had perhaps swung too far the other direction almost slavishly self sacrificing everything she had in her devotion to Etro nearly without complaint despite the obvious extreme personal cost.

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    @slag said:

    @hailinel said:

    @slag said:

    @thatpinguino said:

    @slag: Was his entire resolution trying to kill Snow and then realizing that Snow wasn't the one to blame. Maybe if the characters in 13 weren't so 1 dimensional I would have seen that game through. You can see what Hope's arch is going to be from a mile away, so you spend hours waiting for him to get to where you know he is going to go.

    Pretty much. I don't know if they are anymore more one dimensional than previous FF games. Just maybe more noticeable with voice acting. Hope is, but he's 13. Vanille and Sazh I didn't think were. Snow gets development in later games. Lightning seems to be fairl one note, but she's the player avatar character. Fang just feels undeveloped although with potential. I haven't finished Lighting Returns, but arguably the series' best developed character is barely in 13 (Serah).

    My largest complaint with 13, was that I felt the story really lost steam right about where you stopped playing and never recovered.

    I still really liked 13 though. But I'm definitely positively biased towards FF games, been with the series since day 1 game 1.

    Lightning's development in XIII, at least in part, comes from learning to understand others better. She starts off as a total asshole to Snow and doesn't know what her sister sees in him. But over the course of the game, she comes to realize that yes, Snow can be a dope, but he's got his good qualities, and she learns to be more accepting regarding what her sister and Snow want.

    You're right. I was being too glib, I was thinking more about her character design. I thought her character was deliberately understated to try to avoid being potentially offputting to the player, since I think Square might have been concerned how a female lead might go over with the male audience. I felt like Alli Hillis might have been coached to play her a bit monotone on purpose.

    Lightning definitely was self absorbed in general early on. I felt it was when she realized how her accidental enabling of Hope's destructive rage was hurting him (chapter 5 I think?), that she knew she needed to think about what was best for others as well not just her own desires. Which led to as you said, her putting aside her personal feelings about Snow for the sake of her sister's happiness.

    And then of course by 13-2, she had perhaps swung too far the other direction almost slavishly self sacrificing everything she had in her devotion to Etro nearly without complaint despite the obvious extreme personal cost.

    I don't know if it was a case of understatement as a means to avoid offputting the player as much as it was just a choice by the voice director and Hillis to portray Lightning with that sort of tone. In Japanese, Lightning's actress Maaya Sakamoto doesn't come off with the same sense of understatement. I think that the localizers simply went with what they thought an English-speaking Lightning would sound like. Her design concept was basically female Cloud in terms of her physical appearance (the dev team literally requested Nomura draw Lightning as a female equivalent to Cloud), so that may have played a role in how they chose to voice her, as well, as I remember Cloud's English voice in Advent Children, Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus also being fairly subdued.

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    @thatpinguino:

    I thought Cocoon/Pulse and the Fal'Cie were fantastic Scifi concepts, but I don't know if they meshed ideally with the whole fugitive storyline 13 showed. If they were to do it over, I feel like fugitive storyline would have made a great second game, especially if the first game had established the game world/lore. That would have eliminated a lot of the jargon/codex issues since their would have been that prior player knowledge.

    I felt 13-2 benefited from a lot of the groundwork 13 laid because of that. While I personally thought 13's story was all around better, the pacing of the plot in 13-2 moved better relative to the lore.

    FFIV used a fugitive storyline as well (well really nearly every major FF game seems to have times when the party is on the run for significant periods of time) and had its' own story tunnel for a good chunk of the game, but the overworld gave it a greater sense of place than say 13's did. E.g. When Sazh and Vanille went to Sunleth Waterscape it didn't feel as intuitive as say when Cecil's party went to Mt Hobs, because the player has no sense of Cocoon's geography. And since Cecil's pursuers seemed further off the trail than the L'Cie's, there was usually more time for exposition establishing lore and a sense of place at each stop.

    I love reading all that kind of stuff like the codex anyway, so the jargon didn't bother me, but I did think it messed with the pacing of the story they were trying to tell a bit.

    But I do give them credit for the world they were trying to show off, it's one of the better and more original ones in recent AAA history. Certainly not as guilty of the "all-story" issue, as Ryan Davis used to put it , as many western AAA games are today.

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    @hailinel: ah ok, that would make sense. I thought I read somewhere Square execs were worried about having a female lead and wanted her deliberately androgynous as possible to minimize backlash risk, but what you said makes even more sense.

    I thought the same thing about Cloud's VO. I thought that tone made more sense for Cloud though, given his backstory with his identity/Mako issues etc.

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    @slag said:

    @hailinel: ah ok, that would make sense. I thought I read somewhere Square execs were worried about having a female lead and wanted her deliberately androgynous as possible to minimize backlash risk, but what you said makes even more sense.

    I thought the same thing about Cloud's VO. I thought that tone made more sense for Cloud though, given his backstory with his identity/Mako issues etc.

    True, though while Lightning's background isn't filled with amnesia-inducing Lifestream experimentation, she did have her own troubles growing up. There is some closure on that in Lightning Returns, as well, but I won't say anything more.

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    #27 thatpinguino  Staff

    @slag: Yeah reading all of the codex stuff to even know what is going on and why is a bit much for me. I don't think a game should flood you with jargon and them expect you to do some homework to understand what's going on.

    @hailinel said:

    I don't know if it was a case of understatement as a means to avoid offputting the player as much as it was just a choice by the voice director and Hillis to portray Lightning with that sort of tone. In Japanese, Lightning's actress Maaya Sakamoto doesn't come off with the same sense of understatement. I think that the localizers simply went with what they thought an English-speaking Lightning would sound like. Her design concept was basically female Cloud in terms of her physical appearance (the dev team literally requested Nomura draw Lightning as a female equivalent to Cloud), so that may have played a role in how they chose to voice her, as well, as I remember Cloud's English voice in Advent Children, Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus also being fairly subdued.

    I don't really get why Square thought that Cloud was the central draw to FF7, and thus the key to FF success. He was a fine character, but the technological zeitgeist that FF7 embodied was really the major driving factor. If anything the key story element from FF7 was making you care about Aerith and then killing her. But "spiky blonde who is kind of a distant jerk for most of the game" was not a box quote for FF7.

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    @slag: Yeah reading all of the codex stuff to even know what is going on and why is a bit much for me. I don't think a game should flood you with jargon and them expect you to do some homework to understand what's going on.

    @hailinel said:

    I don't know if it was a case of understatement as a means to avoid offputting the player as much as it was just a choice by the voice director and Hillis to portray Lightning with that sort of tone. In Japanese, Lightning's actress Maaya Sakamoto doesn't come off with the same sense of understatement. I think that the localizers simply went with what they thought an English-speaking Lightning would sound like. Her design concept was basically female Cloud in terms of her physical appearance (the dev team literally requested Nomura draw Lightning as a female equivalent to Cloud), so that may have played a role in how they chose to voice her, as well, as I remember Cloud's English voice in Advent Children, Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus also being fairly subdued.

    I don't really get why Square thought that Cloud was the central draw to FF7, and thus the key to FF success. He was a fine character, but the technological zeitgeist that FF7 embodied was really the major driving factor. If anything the key story element from FF7 was making you care about Aerith and then killing her. But "spiky blonde who is kind of a distant jerk for most of the game" was not a box quote for FF7.

    Cloud was still the protagonist, and the story was told from his point of view, as muddled as it was. He had a lot to overcome from his mixed up memories to Aerith's death to Sephiroth being, well, Sephiroth, I suppose. It's unfortunate that Final Fantasy VII's localization was so poor, as a better job would have probably done wonders for Cloud's characterization in general.

    But no matter what, he's the most fabulous cross-dresser in the world, and no one can take that from me!

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    #29  Edited By thatpinguino  Staff

    @hailinel: Cloud was certainly a big part of 7, but not to the extent that a gender swap of him would goose sales. I think Zidane, whoever you pick as the star of 6, or Cecil are all compelling individual protagonists. I just kinda feel like Lightning is emblematic of the problems of 13: Square looking to past success to lead future success, but not understanding what it was about 7 that everyone liked in the first place.

    Though that cross dressing scene is ridiculous to look back on.

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    I actually just finished replaying FFX for some reason. You know, for someone who hates his dad, he has a real pretty "Jecht" earring, a "Jecht" necklace, and a giant "Jecht" symbol on his stupid pant leg. Or has Tidus not put together what the "J" stands for?

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    I actually just finished replaying FFX for some reason. You know, for someone who hates his dad, he has a real pretty "Jecht" earring, a "Jecht" necklace, and a giant "Jecht" symbol on his stupid pant leg. Or has Tidus not put together what the "J" stands for?

    It's not actually Jecht's symbol. It's the logo of the Zanarkand Abes blitzball team which both Tidus and Jecht were in. So, he is likely wearing all that "branding" because of his connection to his team.

    It certainly does act as a connection between him and his father though. As the OP wrote, there are those similarities which bond them together despite the tension between them.

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    #32 thatpinguino  Staff

    @development said:

    I actually just finished replaying FFX for some reason. You know, for someone who hates his dad, he has a real pretty "Jecht" earring, a "Jecht" necklace, and a giant "Jecht" symbol on his stupid pant leg. Or has Tidus not put together what the "J" stands for?

    It's not actually Jecht's symbol. It's the logo of the Zanarkand Abes blitzball team which both Tidus and Jecht were in. So, he is likely wearing all that "branding" because of his connection to his team.

    It certainly does act as a connection between him and his father though. As the OP wrote, there are those similarities which bond them together despite the tension between them.

    Getting a team logo tattooed on your chest sure is a bold move on Jecht's part. But then again, walking around shirtless at all times is pretty bold as well.

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    @truthtellah said:

    @development said:

    I actually just finished replaying FFX for some reason. You know, for someone who hates his dad, he has a real pretty "Jecht" earring, a "Jecht" necklace, and a giant "Jecht" symbol on his stupid pant leg. Or has Tidus not put together what the "J" stands for?

    It's not actually Jecht's symbol. It's the logo of the Zanarkand Abes blitzball team which both Tidus and Jecht were in. So, he is likely wearing all that "branding" because of his connection to his team.

    It certainly does act as a connection between him and his father though. As the OP wrote, there are those similarities which bond them together despite the tension between them.

    Getting a team logo tattooed on your chest sure is a bold move on Jecht's part. But then again, walking around shirtless at all times is pretty bold as well.

    Yeah, I don't think bold "fashion" choices are something Jecht or Tidus are really that worried about it.

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    #34  Edited By Hailinel

    @hailinel: Cloud was certainly a big part of 7, but not to the extent that a gender swap of him would goose sales. I think Zidane, whoever you pick as the star of 6, or Cecil are all compelling individual protagonists. I just kinda feel like Lightning is emblematic of the problems of 13: Square looking to past success to lead future success, but not understanding what it was about 7 that everyone liked in the first place.

    Though that cross dressing scene is ridiculous to look back on.

    Again, I think that's selling XIII and Lightning short. The dev team may have looked to Cloud for some inspiration in Lightning, but Lightning is more than just a genderswap of an existing character. She has some traits that are in line with Cloub, but she also has a history and relationships that are distinct from what Cloud was faced with. And regardless of how she was presented, the choice to make a female protagonist the lead of Final Fantasy XIII was a relatively bold move on Square Enix's part given that, spin-offs and sequels like X-2 aside, there hadn't been a mainline Final Fantasy with a female lead since Final Fantasy VI. And even then, Terra shared the spotlight fairly evenly with everyone else.

    I admit a certain bias in this argument, though. Lightning is one of my favorite characters in the entire series, and this is coming from someone that has been a fan of the series since the SNES days.

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    #35 thatpinguino  Staff

    @hailinel: I didn't see 13 through to the end, so I'm not sure on Lightning as a character beyond her initial appearance. Based on where she ends up in 13-3 I guess she had to do a lot of growing. I didn't mean to imply Lightning was a true 1-1 clone, but rather that she was marketed as a female Cloud, rather than as the unique character she turned out to be. If her design started as an attempt to remake Cloud, I don't particularly like that design process. Now her being one of only a handful of female protagonists is certainly a step in the right direction, I just wish she was given the chance to shine without the Cloud baggage from the initial pitches.

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    @hailinel said:

    @thatpinguino said:

    @hailinel said:

    I don't know if it was a case of understatement as a means to avoid offputting the player as much as it was just a choice by the voice director and Hillis to portray Lightning with that sort of tone. In Japanese, Lightning's actress Maaya Sakamoto doesn't come off with the same sense of understatement. I think that the localizers simply went with what they thought an English-speaking Lightning would sound like. Her design concept was basically female Cloud in terms of her physical appearance (the dev team literally requested Nomura draw Lightning as a female equivalent to Cloud), so that may have played a role in how they chose to voice her, as well, as I remember Cloud's English voice in Advent Children, Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus also being fairly subdued.

    I don't really get why Square thought that Cloud was the central draw to FF7, and thus the key to FF success. He was a fine character, but the technological zeitgeist that FF7 embodied was really the major driving factor. If anything the key story element from FF7 was making you care about Aerith and then killing her. But "spiky blonde who is kind of a distant jerk for most of the game" was not a box quote for FF7.

    Cloud was still the protagonist, and the story was told from his point of view, as muddled as it was. He had a lot to overcome from his mixed up memories to Aerith's death to Sephiroth being, well, Sephiroth, I suppose. It's unfortunate that Final Fantasy VII's localization was so poor, as a better job would have probably done wonders for Cloud's characterization in general.

    But no matter what, he's the most fabulous cross-dresser in the world, and no one can take that from me!

    I agree with both of you in a way.

    As thatpinguino said there were a lot of unique external circumstances surrounding FF7's release that helped make it the smash hit it was. Cloud was certainly a very big part of it, but I don't think he was even the primary reason the game blew up the way it did. The jump to 3D, the new Sony playstation platform and all the marketing muscle they helped give Square, the shift away from Amano Medieval steampunk to Midgar's futuristic Anime look (at least in the advertising), the iconic look of the characters, The CG cutscenes, The critical acclaim VI had, all were larger factors imo in pushing the game to a place of relevance none save maybe 11 ever touched.

    When I saw the first ads from Final Fantasy Vii, it was really eye opening to me. As it made me realize how differently the Japanese designers saw their Sprite character creations from the way the American Boxart tended to portray NES and SNES games. That alone may have been the biggest shock of the 3d transition to a lot of us, seeing how different Mario, Mega Man, Final Fantasy etc really were in their conception from the way they were portrayed in the US. At the time, Anime was just starting to become readily available in my part of America so really all I had to go one was boxart, manuals, cruddy tie-ins like Captain N and of course the games themselves to form a mental image of what these sprites represented. Polygons shattered all that.

    (really it's kind of similar to how strongly some people here in the US reacted to the portrayal of Samus in Other M, that may have been the last gasp instance of having that kind of a communal cultural "headcanon" demolished in that fashion.)

    As you mentioned Hailinel the localization was poor, so if anything the game succeeded initially in spite of the story in some ways.

    However imo it remains relevant today beyond historical significance because of Cloud and the story.

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    @hailinel: I didn't see 13 through to the end, so I'm not sure on Lightning as a character beyond her initial appearance. Based on where she ends up in 13-3 I guess she had to do a lot of growing. I didn't mean to imply Lightning was a true 1-1 clone, but rather that she was marketed as a female Cloud, rather than as the unique character she turned out to be. If her design started as an attempt to remake Cloud, I don't particularly like that design process. Now her being one of only a handful of female protagonists is certainly a step in the right direction, I just wish she was given the chance to shine without the Cloud baggage from the initial pitches.

    I don't think she was ever truly marketed as a female Cloud beyond statements regarding the process of her design. I also don't have knowledge or insight into the entire design process that she went through. I don't necessarily see the aspects of her design that originated with Cloud as being baggage, either. I don't judge Lightning based on what relation her design has with Cloud, but on how she's actively portrayed in the games, her own strengths and faults, and how she overcomes the adversity thrown her way.

    @slag said:

    I agree with both of you in a way.

    As thatpinguino said there were a lot of unique external circumstances surrounding FF7's release that helped make it the smash hit it was. Cloud was certainly a very big part of it, but I don't think he was even the primary reason the game blew up the way it did. The jump to 3D, the new Sony playstation platform and all the marketing muscle they helped give Square, the shift away from Amano Medieval steampunk to Midgar's futuristic Anime look (at least in the advertising), the iconic look of the characters, The CG cutscenes, The critical acclaim VI had, all were larger factors imo in pushing the game to a place of relevance none save maybe 11 ever touched.

    When I saw the first ads from Final Fantasy Vii, it was really eye opening to me. As it made me realize how differently the Japanese designers saw their Sprite character creations from the way the American Boxart tended to portray NES and SNES games. That alone may have been the biggest shock of the 3d transition to a lot of us, seeing how different Mario, Mega Man, Final Fantasy etc really were in their conception from the way they were portrayed in the US. At the time, Anime was just starting to become readily available in my part of America so really all I had to go one was boxart, manuals, cruddy tie-ins like Captain N and of course the games themselves to form a mental image of what these sprites represented. Polygons shattered all that.

    (really it's kind of similar to how strongly some people here in the US reacted to the portrayal of Samus in Other M, that may have been the last gasp instance of having that kind of a communal cultural "headcanon" demolished in that fashion.)

    As you mentioned Hailinel the localization was poor, so if anything the game succeeded initially in spite of the story in some ways.

    However imo it remains relevant today beyond historical significance because of Cloud and the story.

    I wouldn't say that Cloud was the primary reason that Final Fantasy VII became the phenomenon it was and still largely is, either. There were a lot of reasons for why the game became as popular as it was, though you're right in that Cloud was certainly a big part of it. It was also, for many people, an introduction to Japanese RPGs in general, as it reached a much broader audience in the west than any of the previous six. It was of course also the first game in the series to give more definition and detail to the characters that weren't just tiny sprites, though it also separated from the pack by taking its character designs from Nomura, who critics often unfairly use as a punching bag for everything they don't like about Final Fantasy regardless of the faults they bemoan.

    As for your comment on Other M and headcanon, it really is an weird feeling when headcanon is shattered, though to be honest, Other M was never a game that put me off in that way. It can really blow when the picture in your mind doesn't match what the creator's vision intended, but at the same time, I think sometimes people get far too defensive of their headcanon. Like taking Samus's portrayal in Other M as an affront to what they held dear about the character in their mind specifically. Other M's storytelling has its share of problems, but attacking the creator because a character doesn't match preconceived expectations based on snippets of old manual text or media produced by a third party is in its own way attempting to shout down the creative freedom of the people behind those characters (and by extension, the preferences of those that don't agree that the character's portrayal is poor).

    I have caught so much shit in the past half-decade due to my apparently audacity to like Final Fantasy XIII, Lightning, Other M, and Samus. But then, the internet has always been filled with that crowd that can't abide dissent. How dare people like what others dislike. And what makes it worse is when people don't even bother to back up or elaborate on their arguments. Something is bad because it just is and screw individual opinion.

    Which is why I'm glad @thatpinguino puts so much effort into his essays and videos. Even when there's disagreement, conversation can be had, and it doesn't feel like one side chiding the other.

    Wow, I've gone off topic. I'll stop now.

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    thatpinguino

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    #38 thatpinguino  Staff

    @hailinel: I'm glad that there can be interesting discussion on my stuff. I think the length of it tends to knock out most of the snap reaction people by default, which helps discussion (but not views).

    On topic: it sure is interesting that there was such a strong theme of parentage and heritage in FF8-10. Its like that theme cropped up and faded away in 3-4 years.

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    Slag

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    @hailinel:

    my response I just wrote went too far OT. I'll just Pm it you.

    @hailinel: I'm glad that there can be interesting discussion on my stuff. I think the length of it tends to knock out most of the snap reaction people by default, which helps discussion (but not views).

    On topic: it sure is interesting that there was such a strong theme of parentage and heritage in FF8-10. Its like that theme cropped up and faded away in 3-4 years.

    Honestly I think that's may because Sakaguchi is gone. Imo if you play some of Mistwalker's games in some ways they feel story wise, dialogue wise a bit more like an older Final Fantasy game than the modern ones do. I'm not sure I can articulate what it is exactly that makes his touch noticeable, but playing even a little of the Last Story it felt instantly recognizable to me.

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    @slag said:

    @thatpinguino said:

    @hailinel: I'm glad that there can be interesting discussion on my stuff. I think the length of it tends to knock out most of the snap reaction people by default, which helps discussion (but not views).

    On topic: it sure is interesting that there was such a strong theme of parentage and heritage in FF8-10. Its like that theme cropped up and faded away in 3-4 years.

    Honestly I think that's may because Sakaguchi is gone. Imo if you play some of Mistwalker's games in some ways they feel story wise, dialogue wise a bit more like an older Final Fantasy game than the modern ones do. I'm not sure I can articulate what it is exactly that makes his touch noticeable, but playing even a little of the Last Story it felt instantly recognizable to me.

    I think that's because Sakaguchi has a preference for certain characters and narrative arcs. Playing The Last Story, Zael and Calista gave me a sense of characters like Cecil and Rosa, or Locke and Celes, or even Squall and Rinoa. There's a distinctive quality to the romantic subplots in his games.

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    I love the FF games and I really like your series. But you know I hate to say this but I feel like your post captures like 90% of the core of the story of a 50+ hour game. It feels greatly insufficient to deliver such a simple story about a father son relationship in such a prolonged game. Not that its not an enjoyable experience(maybe my favourite summon system of all time) its just that I hoped the character would develop more than he did, its not enough to only have a beginning (before the game) and a cinematic at the end of the game, the first which establishes the relationship, and the last where the relationship changes.

    For comparison, Dagger(who is not even the main character) in FF9 starts out carefree and wants to leave, which eventually turns into guilt, but replaced by curiosity when she discovers her origins, which then gets replaced by responsibility when Alexandria needs her, and then she cuts off her hair as the pinnacle of her character development which is done for deciding to start anew with a new slate where she will not fail to protect the things she loves.

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    @hailinel said:

    @slag said:
    @thatpinguino said:

    @hailinel: I'm glad that there can be interesting discussion on my stuff. I think the length of it tends to knock out most of the snap reaction people by default, which helps discussion (but not views).

    On topic: it sure is interesting that there was such a strong theme of parentage and heritage in FF8-10. Its like that theme cropped up and faded away in 3-4 years.

    Honestly I think that's may because Sakaguchi is gone. Imo if you play some of Mistwalker's games in some ways they feel story wise, dialogue wise a bit more like an older Final Fantasy game than the modern ones do. I'm not sure I can articulate what it is exactly that makes his touch noticeable, but playing even a little of the Last Story it felt instantly recognizable to me.

    I think that's because Sakaguchi has a preference for certain characters and narrative arcs. Playing The Last Story, Zael and Calista gave me a sense of characters like Cecil and Rosa, or Locke and Celes, or even Squall and Rinoa. There's a distinctive quality to the romantic subplots in his games.

    That's it! Thanks man, my old man video game brain was locking up on me.

    I'm guessing parentage and heritage thatpinguino talks about might be other preferences of his, seems reasonable.

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    thatpinguino

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    #43 thatpinguino  Staff

    @gamefreak9: I think you are over-simplifying some of the growth Tidus makes over the course of the game. Though his relationship with his dad is largely captured in my post, he also grows to accept that he is never going home. He grows to accept his role as a guardian as well. By the end of the game Tidus is quite a bit more mature than when he started. As for the plot as a whole, the game has a lot more going on that the Tidus-Jecht story-line. There is the cycle of death stuff, the religious betrayal and questioning organized religion, and the fusion between religion and sport with blitzball and yevon. The game has a ton going on philosophically in its plot, I mean the main enemy is Sin and it is created by Fayth, I just focused in on Tidus and Jecht.

    I would agree that Garnet grows much more visibly that Tidus does, and that she is a much better developed character. However, Garnet is one of the better developed characters in the series so I don't hold that against non-FF9 characters.

    @slag: I think FF9 was really the culmination of a lot of Sakaguchi's themes as far as the FF series goes. That game was all about nostalgia, trying to find your place in the world, and overcoming humble beginnings. Though that description sounds pretty generic, it really stood out in 9.

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    byterunner

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    Great post, loved the examination of the Tidus Character. I always felt that people gave him too much shit for the situation he was in.

    Its too bad that they went ahead and destroyed pretty much everything X and X-2 built story wise, and left the series on a cliff hanger that Square has said will probably never have a resolution. (At least as a game anyways.)

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    #45 thatpinguino  Staff

    @byterunner: What do you mean? Like the ending of X-2 ruined everything? The end of X-2 is a blur, but I don't remember it being especially coherent.

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    Accolade

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    Wow. That's a really well laid out essay.

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    #47 thatpinguino  Staff

    @accolade: Thank you very much sir and/or madam!

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