Let's Discuss BioShock Infinite (HUGE SPOILERS)

That one dimension is the original time line where all the other possibilities sprang from. In essence, drowning Booker during his baptism wasn't actually... drowning him. The priest for one isn't in the scene, and nobody else is, either, so it's not a time travel thing. It's just Booker being drowned by all the variants of Elizabeth from the possible worlds that Comstock was alive in. Before cutting to credits, the scene lingers on Booker and Elizabeth, and we don't see Elizabeth blink out like her variants. The baptism/drowning, I think, is Booker confronting and letting go of what happened at the Wounded Knee Massacre, which is what drove him to seek salvation in the first place. Booker Who Would Become Comstock didn't ever really let go of it and that's what the baptism was supposed to do and indeed does for a lot of Born Again types. It's a metaphorical aid to wash away the person you were to become the person you want to be. You know, with way more Jesus and God and shit. Instead of washing away the sin (because Booker/Comstock couldn't shake it off) it instead drove him to evangelical, doomsday preaching, to building Columbia, to bringing about another "great flood" like the Noah's Ark story in order to rid the world of the Sodomites and monsters like he used to be/still is. Booker DeWitt on the other hand rejected salvation and saw himself as a monster for what happened, and so he went on to do more monstrous things (Pinkertons didn't fuck around y'all) which led to him selling his child to get rid of gambling debts.

Basically what the drowning was meant to represent, I think, is Booker killing the past and letting it go. He's seen where it leads and he hates who he becomes in both instances. So in a way he's still being "born again," but this time he's actually letting go and the man who comes up for air won't be the same Booker we played as, and it won't be Comstock either.

Now for Ridiculous Speculation: I took the post credits scene to mean that Booker would be okay, that he had Anna (his wife still died in childbirth), and that he was a better man than he used to be. The kind of man that won't sell his goddamn child, for instance. It's not perfect, as his wife is still dead and he's no doubt still traumatized by the Wounded Knee Massacre, but he didn't abandon Anna this time, which is what set the events of Infinite in motion.

I could be totally wrong about all of this, though. That was my read on the characters and themes present in Infinite. It goes to some really dark places, but at the end I think it's actually incredibly optimistic and it's kinda sweet.

Just finished the game, and let me say before I write up a larger thing and dive deeper into themes/etc. I pretty much shit myself at the part where you pulled the lever for the gate to open and the Boy of Silence was standing right behind you. I wasn't prepared for that at all. That scare got me in the original Bioshock at one point, and it got me here too.

Elizabeth's dimension-jumping ability is a result of some sort of purposeful overexposure to the technology, right (by Comstock and Lutece)? Do we know why Comstock forces her through this transformation? It seems like a rather risky endeavor to go through--to put his prodigy on the line like that...

So did the end of the game amount to anything? The twins seem to be MUCH more then they appear to be, and seem to be pulling the strings in all cases. Booker isnt exactly the brightest bulb, and I dont see how he would contribute to "time travel" At the beginning of the game the twins are arguing about the futility of an exercise in which they have already failed. When you meet them next they ask you to flip the coin. It ALWAYS flips heads. The tally also seem to be the number of times (which was what like 57? Taking a guess at that number fyi 5x10 on the back of the board and 6+1 for current in the front?) you have gone through the "game" implying things cant be changed.

Even if things were changed it seems to be a moot point in that there still should be a infinite number of realities in which everything still happens. I dont see how they properly explained that this one Booker was the key to all other realities. By pulling him from his "time line" he is no longer a key figure to becoming Comstock to begin with.

It's probably because of her finger being stuck in another dimension. I found this log that seems to explain it (copied the text from Neogaf as I have already started a new game).

"The Source of Her Power - Rosalind Lutece

September the 5th, 1909

Location: Specimen Observation

What makes the girl different? I suspect it has less to do with what she is, and rather more with what she is not. A small part of her remains from where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas mixed with its porridge."

About the beginning, I think that everything up until you wake up in columbia and booker says "someone should tell that priest theres a difference between a baptism and drowing someone" is memories he created for him self to justify being there (the twins are dragging him at some point during the ending and they remark that he is creating a back story/justification based on his memories which will consist of his memories from multiple universes.) i think the twins bring him back to that moment in columbia. And everything before that is a created memory of booker. At least i think that for now... As i spend more time wrapping my head around that Info dump of an ending i may have a completely different theory.

Just read an interesting little tidbit over on Reddit that I hadn't considered at the time because it happens during the information overload at the end. During the section where Booker and Elizabeth are in Rapture they use a bathysphere to reach the surface, more specifically Booker uses it.

It's established in the original Bioshock that during the Rapture Civil War the bathyspheres were locked down in order to prevent anyone escaping and that the only person who could operate them was Andrew Ryan himself. However a loophole in the system, that would allow the player character from the first Bioshock to use the bathyspheres, meant that genetic descendants of Andrew Ryan could use them as well.

Just finished and wow. Now I'm going to play through The Last Express again.

Ok I can't read all this stuff :P. I got a lot of it though. Just to throw this out there since I don't see it mentioned on page 1 anyway. There is a perfectly valid reason Comstock looks so much older than Booker to the point that even Slate doesn't recognize him. The experiments Lutece were conducting not only caused him to be infertile but in one audio log found on his flagship it implies they also caused him to age at an accelerated rate and mentioned specifically that some "Comstocks" were far healthier. So no, they are the same age, just one of them has been hosed by exposure to mad science and the other hasn't.

Also did none of you sit through the credits? If Booker is "really" dead then why does the game actually end with him opening the door to his daughters room calling her name?

EDIT: Also why is Elizabeth special? Well there is the implied (her finger is in the original world while her body is here) but also think of this.... Comstock is sterile... he can't have children. In this dimension "Elizabeth" was never supposed to exist in the first place because she was never born. Meaning she is literally a extra dimensional being already. So this probably helps too. Basically it is the universe trying to compensate by tricking something that is not where it is supposed to be into getting back where it belongs. Which coincidentally is the whole goal of the game, to undue the original actions that caused these dimensional tears from the get go so they never happened.

I love the original Bioshock too, but man, go back and play that game. It's a narrative disaster after it blows it's plot-twist load. It also has one of the most atrocious endings to a game with narrative aspiration.

@shakey1245: Seeing as Ryan was old enough to leave Russia on his own in 1919, it would require both a Booker who didn't give Anna over and having him then move away to Russia after 1912 or later than the Post-Credits scene, and at the oldest possible age considering this, a seven year old Ryan to leave Russia because he felt America was a place where he could prosper.

I feel it's just as easily explained that it was because of her powers and was more like a doorway to the entrance of the other doors, rather than being in the specific Rapture we visited in Bioshock with all the specific story restrictions in place. She may have also picked Rapture just because being under the ocean, it was an easy way for her to deal with Songbird, and resonates more with the player than if they created a completely different city that could be the setting for it's own game or something.

But man what if they had done that?

@TurboMan That scared the crap out of me also. Jumped out of my seat and had to take the headset off for a moment.

Same. Was not expecting that at all.

I think the people who are taking the, "The Lighthouse, A Man, and A City" statement as a direct correlation to there ALWAYS being a Booker, Songbird, and Elizabeth exactly are focusing on that one aspect a little too hard. It comes off to me as more that basically, regardless of the dimension, there will always be a city. Not that Booker, or Elizabeth are always going to be related to it, but that a story like this will always exist at some point in each different timeline. Not that this doesn't mean that Columbia and Rapture or any other numerous types of 'crazy-cities' couldn't happen in each others dimensions/timelines but that there will always be at least one defining city with a Hero, Prisoner, and Protector.

Then again, maybe I'm thinking about that a little too hard...

Amazing, just finished it. The whole thing was so realized, such an engrossing world. Ending was mind blowing but not in a cheap "look at this twist!" way. The ideas in the ending are supported throughout the entire story so it felt really cool taking a pause after the credits to collect my thoughts and think it through. Yup, all that shit checks out, and the fact that it's a great game on top of the visuals and story is quite an achievement.

Everything about the game is just so well done except the gunplay. Sure the story isn't my favorite type of "these types of stories" but it is so well put together that I can ignore that completely. It's not my personal favorite of the year but if I put aside personal preferences, I can't see anything topping this game's story for a while.

My only issue with the story is that it isn't fully explained why Elizabeth has her powers. The universe trying to fix itself or because she's in two different dimensions explanations several people mentioned seem perfectly plausible. You also have to leave some room for a sequel or dlc right?

I'm reminded of Chrono Trigger at the end of the day. I wish this game had as many variables, but I had that same vibe throughout.

Next generation needs to deliver a Bioshock Infinite on the scale of Chrono Trigger. Space the fighting out more, let the world and art speak for itself.

Game was fantastic. The ending has been discussed enough but i'd imagine the after-credits scene hints at Booker being able to properly raise Anna/Elizabeth rather than give her away.

Atleast that's what I want to believe, it makes more sense to me. The story was incredible but a game where everyone technically dies and it's all for nothing isn't exactly meaningful to me. Not to mention, once again, why would the after credits scene be there.

Man THANK YOU, been trying to put that together (was almost there, almost had it but forgot about the finger thing), i can now rest easy since all the important things seem to have been tied up nicely

Did anyone go into a random basement at one point? There's a little boy who runs under the stairs, and something to interact with, and something happens that's just a small thing, but it gave me chills and was the moment my like of this game turned into full-on love.

I finished it. I'm really blown away. What a good story, well-told. What incredible world-building. Maybe the best soundtrack ever. Once I became comfortable enough with the mechanics to stop begrudging the fact that it's a shooter (and also got Charge which made all the combat crazy zippy fun), I was fully absorbed. I feel like I've been somewhere.

The only question I'm left with is why more games aren't so well considered.

Same.

About the ending- I felt like I understood it up until the point where Elizabeth said that you were both Booker DeWitt and Comstock- what did that mean? Is it just that you kill Booker so that Elizabeth can never be born/given up? Or am I missing something.

Still the best ending since Red Dead Redemption, although I still think that one was better. Only game that has ever made me cry.

Oh yes, don't mistake me: That last 1/4th of Bioshock is sort of bad and uninteresting and I recognized that when I played it for the first time 3 years ago. I think it's better at fleshing out Rapture as an entity and place than Infinite is at doing the same for Columbia. As I said in a post one page back, why does the opening area of Columbia present the founding fathers as religious icons when they're never shown again throughout the rest of the game? (instead, Comstock himself seems to be the religious center of Columbia). Also, what are Comstock's motivations and why is he so different from Booker despite being the same person who made a singular different choice?

Small, petty stuff like that I feel is kind of indicative of the game going through multiple rewrites and I don't feel like the original has quite that same problem (except at the end). I'm probably looking through it all with rose-tinted glasses however, and the relationship between Booker and Elizabeth is the crux of the story anyways and is done so well that it's only the small things that really irk me.

That's not true at all. There are posters and pics and shit of the founding fathers everywhere and constant references to the scroll/key/sword.

idk, maybe it's cause I like the architecture or the design of columbia more but I found myself liking the environments in Infinite a lot more than 1.

Question for you all. I've seen a few people say something to the effect of "About half way through I thought I had the whole game figured out and then it went in a completely different direction". I'm curious as to what that direction was that you were all considering.

@dystopiax: Posters are one thing, but I don't think Comstock or anyone else ever mentions any of that stuff in any of the audiologs and whatnot. I feel like a city founded on the idea of religious zealotry and jingoism would mention its core tenants a bit more, hmm?

No, after their deaths. There are voxaphones that reveal they came back after they were killed (there's one that's recording of a photographer who took their funeral picture being dumbfounded by their presence). But that's the thing.

It's not after they were killed either. They were killed. They are dead. They will be killed. Think Doctor Manhattan.

They invented this whole quantum science way of travelling through time and space (as is elaborated in voxaphones, they "discovered" Tears). Like, this is how they can show up and vanish, this is how they complete each other's sentences, and all that crazy stuff. Eventually being killed didn't matter because they realized that was but one consequence of one timeline, and they could travel between them and... this is confusing.

So you know, take that part of "before their deaths" out. It's wrong, but it also doesn't make sense at all I guess.

They killed Comstock by killing Booker before he redeemed. But, if that Comstock wasn't born how can Elizabeth still exist after it? I don't get so much stuff in this game.

Also, maybe they did it because Comstock betrayed them right? So this was a way to end all this before it happened? I don't fucking know.

For comstock I don't think he believed in that shit, he used them as a device to get people to follow him. I do think that they coulda been more rah rah with the patriotism, and they were for the first part. After you're going through a lot of Vox Populi stuff so it makes sense he doesn't appear there.

I thought that the tears wouldn't play as big of a part. I thought it would be more like following the plot of Bioshock 1, where you eventually face Comstock, twists and shit occur, but in the end you manage to leave Columbia and either head for NY/Paris, perhaps chosen by the player. The whole alternate dimensions/Booker is the father/ending the timeline timejump stuff never really occurred to me, not even after the first time you do it with the gunsmith dude. I only kinda saw where the game was going after you get back into the dimension where the Vox Populi have guns, and even then I didn't fully grasp it either.

There was a voxophone recording where the woman (don't remember names) talks about her twin brother wanting to set it right, and even though she knew it would end poorly she agreed, so he went to bring him to Columbia in order to rescue Elizabeth and eventually fix his mistakes.

I don't think Elizabeth did necessarily exist after it. The multiple Elizabeths at the end were fading one by one with each note, but when there's one left the final note fades to black...but that doesn't necessarily mean she didn't fade either. The other possibility is that Elizabeth didn't fade because she, like the twin scientists, now exists "outside time", so she both doesn't exist, exists, lives, dies, etc. because time/dimensional rules don't affect her anymore. I think the post-credits bit was left ambiguous, but if Anna/Elizabeth was there I think they were showing an alternate timeline where the baptism scene- either him getting baptized or leaving- never occured at all, and he simply lives out his life with Anna and nothing happens. The game is saying that with these infinite worlds/possibilities, there could have been one where none of these events even happened. That was my interpretation of it anyway.

Also it's much more than that. Yes, thanks to the players' knowledge of the trappings and settings of the first game, it gains a whole more intimate meaning within the franchise. It is a commentary on the archetypes of the game - there is one grimmy man, saving a pure girl, in a city driven by a madman and corrupted by zealous over-obsession of its own ideals - but it's also a quote much more beautiful than just that, I think.

Frankly I find it to refer to stories as a whole. There's always a beginning, there's always characters, two people meeting each other, something else. She says this standing in a universe of doors that lead to infinite different places, so many lighthouses in such an immense space that they look like stars - those sights that have fascinated mankind and sprouted imaginations since time immemorial - and they are all somehow interconnected. It is a physical symbolization of a quantum perspective of reality, and at the same time of story-telling.

And she says "It always starts with a lighthouse" as a single sentence in the end. She is bringing a particular emphasis to that part of her thought. You could put so much thought into what that means. What is a lighthouse? It's a beacon to keep travelers sailing across oceans from crashing. Does this mean that the lighthouse in the quote symbolizes a writer, and that the story is always an effort to share one's thoughts, to lead listeners to the lonely shores of a creator who wants to share his imaginings, so that they are not only his own? Does it mean that these stories are created with the intent to always help others? Am I looking to much into this? Who knows. I wrote this paragraph, which is an unfinished train of thought, about one part of that quote. It's insightful, it's pretty, and it's worth putting some thought into it.

It's a vague abstract quote that I'm unable to put down to words right now, and I think it's a thoughtful one. It's definitely more than just a throwback at the previous game in the franchise, though it's also that.

amongst the many little details that im sure a lot of people already mentioned, just noticed this one:

not only is it a beautiful song (with a beautiful moment in the game), the name of the song is all sorts of apropriate

@rhaknar: Did the voice actress actually sing this?

Yeah, it was pretty great, although a bit random.

Seems like you guys have this all wrapped up, don't know what I could add to this thread at this point.

I'd be really surprised if she didn't. The speak/sing style makes it easier to pick out. If she didn't, they found any AMAZING voicealike.

EDIT: Holy fucking shit Jennifer Hale was Lutece!?!?!?!?!? WHAT THE FUCK!?

It may have something to do with the way actions of interference in one reality effected other realities. For example, all the dudes you kill before traveling through tears with Elizabeth are all fucked up on the other side. This may be because they weren't meant to die in that reality because Booker, a man out of place, was the one that killed them. This doesn't explain Chen Lin, however, so it may have more to do with Elizabeth opening these tears. In any case, with one or many Elizabeths going back to that point to kill Booker out of time may have echoed throughout the other realities to prevent any Booker from going through the baptism and becoming Comstock.

At that point, with no Comstock, none of the jumping Elizabeths can exist so they all disappeared. However, that doesn't mean that Booker can't still give birth to Anna later on and have a normal life.

@turboman: YES, THIS FUCKING PART GAVE ME A HEART ATTACK.

Okay just finished it, that Rapture part was fucking awesome.

The rest of it I can leave, didn't think the story was that great. Game dipped in quality for me as soon as it descended into a lot of wave based combat around the middle, and the world is so boring when it's gloomy, just reminded me of Singularity. I preferred the colourful areas in the beginning.

Not a bad game but I'm not seeing the overwhelming love. And where are people getting 15 hours+ from? I finished it in 9 and was quite slow, explored, got lots of audiologs. Eh..

First game was better.

Hey, did anyone else find the little souvenir the Luteces had in their home?

There's a Rapture Records vinyl on the record player in the lounge. I take it to mean that they have been to Rapture as well?

here's a pic for those that want to see for themselves.

I thought that was so random... He picks up the guitar, doesn't say a word and they start this song in perfect unison ? For me it was one of many little immersion-breaking moments.

I don't know what you're talking about. The founding fathers are a constant imagery from start to finish (although, they take a backseat in the industrial sector due to the fact that the working class is unworthy of their imagery); Comstock is always the main religious figure: he's the prophet who's guiding the people through this depictions of the key, the scroll, and the sword.

A whole section of the game is about how one insignificant change can drastically change the future. Why do you think they spend so much time exploring the 'entering of tears' in the first place?

For me, Columbia feels like way more of a place because you explore far more of it. It feels like a more well-rounded exploration where each district clearly details another crazy-important part of how Columbia works, or how the people and ideologies work. This isn't the case with Bioshock--there's a lot of filler space. More than that, the story also has too much filler. It feels like the game progressed in development much faster than the writing did: every sector you enter has a really poor excuse to keep you locked up there by a malicious 'boss' figure that ultimately leads to very little impact on the overall narrative. The one place where Infinite does this is with Daisy and the gunsmith, but that ultimately amounts to explaining how entering tears works, and allows them to immediately spark a revolution in a fairly believable way--two incredibly important aspects of the plot.

@oldirtybearon: I like your analysis a lot.

It actually makes me wonder if we're not all jumping to conclusions in assuming that Booker dies at the end. One of the main questions repeated throughout the game by both characters is whether we can really be forgiven for the bad things that we've done in the past. Booker says no and spends his life tortured over his mistakes. Comstock says yes and uses that forgiveness as an excuse to do all kinds of fucked up shit without any regard for anyone else. Regardless of what choice Booker/Comstock makes at the post-Wounded Knee baptism, he leads a bad life and is complicit in Elizabeth's painful childhood. Once it's revealed that Booker sold Elizabeth to Comstock, I was expecting the big moment of catharsis to be Elizabeth choosing to give Booker the forgiveness that he didn't think was possible. They'd fly off to Paris and make up for all of their lost time. Clearly I was incorrect. For a game that's so focused on the concept of forgiveness, it's kind of weird how silent Elizabeth is through all of these revelations. It's really unclear how she feels about all of it, and it's a testament to how amazing this game is that that kind of ambiguity can be expressed through a game character.

Anyways, we know she doesn't forgive Comstock for all of his misdeeds, so the real question, at least in my mind, is whether she can forgive Booker. The editing of the closing scene does strongly imply that Booker drowns (especially the way they all say "smother" in that creepy way) but I think it's definitely possible that something else entirely is happening here. What if this really is a baptism, albeit not a religious one. Elizabeth is the only one that can give Booker "real" forgiveness for everything he's done (or will do as the case may be). With Elizabeth's forgiveness, the religious baptism becomes somewhat irrelevant. It allows him to move forward without ignoring the past or erasing it through some sort of false absolution. Because the creation of Comstock has still been prevented (albeit not through his death) the other versions of Elizabeth would still disappear. This could also explain the post-credit sequence. If Booker is truly forgiven and never makes either choice, then there's no reason why he and Elizabeth wouldn't have a perfectly normal life together.

Some of this is probably a stretch, but it's fun to think about.

Sidebar:

The only thing I haven't seen adequately explained here yet is how/why Elizabeth has these powers. The twins seem to have the ability through technological means, which I guess they could have passed on to Elizabeth somehow. But why? The theory about her being partially in two worlds thanks to her pinkie finger seems closest to the truth, but it still feels really unsatisfying. It's just the one nagging thing that I still can't figure out about this game.

Great game.

I think the Lutece's are really the key to understanding why this is happening. I do have a couple of ideas...

I think the whole thing is an experiment by those two, they want to stop Comstock, stop Columbia and save Elizabeth (ultimately, to prevent their own deaths) but the only person who can stop Comstock and save Elizabeth is Booker, due to his connection to both. This is a Booker who had his baby taken by Comstock and was not baptised after Wounded Knee.

I think Booker vs. Comstock is something which has happened a hundreds times before, they bring in different Bookers every time, and are recording the results, assessing why some events are changeable (Booking dying a Martyr) and some not (Heads or Tales part? The telegram from the Lutece's saying do not pick No 77). With every different Booker, there are somethings which always stay the same and some. But all of these other Bookers has never given them the result they want.

That's my idea about it anyway, really need a second play through try and corroborate more of this stuff

@gettodachoppa: I think our Booker De Witt dies, because it's necessary. However I think after the credits could be another Booker in another universe, where he never gave Anna away and has come to terms with Wounded Knee. Perhaps here he never sought out the baptism in the first place. Just like somewhere there's a universe in which the coin toss always comes up tails.

@beefstevens: Doesn't old lady Elizabeth make a reference to that on the airship's deck? Something about all this happening before but him never "saving" her?

@gaminghooligan: This just keeps getting better and better. Will need to check that out on my second run.

It's been so long since I've wanted to jump right back into a game, but this is one for sure, will keep this thread posted on any more stuff of interest.

Just finished the game and damn it was great. The scene where Elizabeth brings Booker to the infinite lighthouses I was instantly thinking of The Sandman and Mike Carey's Lucifer and was grinning the whole way through. This and Tombraider are going to be serious contenders for GOTY!

I felt the story tied up almost everything except for the part where you encountered boys of silence. When exactly did Booker travel in time to old Eilzabeth's time or did I miss this?

When he was crossing the bridge to reach Comstock Manor, right after Songbird kicked his ass and absconded with Elizabeth. Suddenly he comes through the storm and it's snowing. He says something like. "Snow? It's June."

Oh crap you're right! Where I live there are no seasonal changes, just tropical heat or rain so it didn't occur to me. I just figured Comstock liked it chilly up in his tower.

My only problem with the ending is the exact opposite of my problem with bioshock. While bioshock 1 jumped the gun on the twist too soon, infinite waited WAY too long to reveal it (the last sentence of the game).

IMO booker should have been reveled to be comstock when you finally meet up with/kill him, and than Liz taking you through the multiverse should have been some light explanation as to how that was, followed by every variation of her killing you.

And the relationship between infinites reality vs bioshock 1's has been said to be

Booker=jack

Liz=little sister

Comstock=Ryan

Songbird=big daddy

While this might be true, I think it's more complex than that. I think it goes like this

Jack=Elizabeth (both have overt symbols to being caged, jacks being his chain tattoos)

Fontaine=booker

Ryan=comstock

And then I'm not really sure where little sisters/big daddies fall into place. Maybe songbird is a combination of both?

It's all very confusing, and now I can't wait to replay it knowing what I know