About that Table Top email on the Beastcast...

Can someone enlighten me why the 'avoid telling someone how you feel and/or confrontation at all costs!' approach seems to be the preferred way of handeling things by people? Obviously from the story told in the email it sounded like the host and/or his friend weren't making the experience any fun, but... why did no one tell them 'listen, you explaining things for an hour isn't fun. Let's just talk me through the basics in 10 minutes and get started. I'll learn as we go'? Why is being begrudgingly silent and not having a good time such a commonly accepted thing to do?

Later in the same Beastcast the audioboard thing came up. Ways to handle it by the Beastcrew pretty much all involved trying to seem like you're okay with it and then blocking the person off silently. When Vinny said he'd just speak up, it was answered with: 'Really? You would really do that'? Why is it such a weird thing to just tell someone how you feel about something? Even Jason ended it with: 'a person like this just doesn't know'. Then why not tell them?

I just don't get it. People really won't hate you if you tell them in a normal manner that what is happening is not fun. I've never played a D&D style table top game, but if I was hosting it, I would feel awful if people didn't like a particular thing I did and they just never told me, silently hating it.

My take was the guy didn't know these people very well and was a new comer, maybe he just didn't think to speak out because he was the one there to learn. I've definitly had experience with my friends where they were like I get it lets just play.

Also Vinny did mention just shutting the lap top haha

It is far too naive to think that people will take criticism well no matter how benign or how plainly you phrase it. People overreact, misunderstand or just disagree and it can go real bad real fast.

That said, I'm with you that honesty is the best idea. This isn't a 90s sitcom where nobody tells the truth and hilarious misunderstandings occur.

@zevvion: Some people really don't like being in any way confrontational. It's like going to a restaurant, not enjoying the meal, asking was everything ok and going "yeah it was good thanks". Lots of people will do that because they just don't want a confrontation.

Also from the email, it sounded like the author was stuck there no matter what for the next several hours, so possibly getting into an argument wouldn't of been his best action.

@tipsyrooster: That made me laugh, but be polite, duder. I'd recommend you listen to that story, though. It's in the beginning of the E-Mail section of the latest beastcast. It's a whole thing, and boy, is it great.

For the tabletop game, somebody should have interrupted that. That type of situation very much feels like a learn by doing or learn as you go. Even if it was something that required a lot of ground to cover, just sitting there for an hour A) Doesn't sound like fun, and B) Sounds like somebody is being a bad host. People who actually play tabletop games might have a different take on this, but I would prioritize everybody having a good time instead of making sure one person knows the entire background of a game.

The work situation on the other hand is a little trickier. People can work together in an office setting for years and generally speaking no matter how long you've been there, there's that one guy who has been there 5 to 15 years longer than you. Plus there's also the fact that the world is filled with assholes and work environments can easily place you next to an asshole you would otherwise avoid. Even if somebody is in the right, the person who is causing the problem can throw a fit and be even more of a jerk, or just not understand how what they are doing can bother somebody else. There are plenty of irrational people out there.

Personally I think the guys dealing with the soundboard are lucky. The biggest issues I've had with co-workers in the past were how they communicated (how they talked, the things they say, not being clear with what they meant, taking way too long to have a discussion, etc.). A soundboard is a tangible thing that can be more easily explained. Even if that person was an asshole and wouldn't listen, you could probably go to somebody and explain, "Look, he's playing 'You are the Weakest Link. Goodbye,' audio cues. Come on! This is disruptive." For me, if I were to say something to the people I worked with, it could come across as, "Hey, I know you are over 45 and have probably talked this way the most of your life, but could you please talk and communicate with people better? I really don't like the way you talk."

Besides that, I personally either don't want confrontation or generally wouldn't really care about a lot of things that would bother me, so I wouldn't react anyways.

@Alistercat I run a bar, can confirm. On some occasions I have to ask people to leave due to intense, stomach churning body odour. I say it to them very quietly and calmly, and they are welcome to return once they have sorted the issue. And thes are people who had only had a couple of drinks, or even no alcohol at all. Every time they have gotten extremely defensive and made a big scene, drawing attention to themselves and that they are the source of the stink. One gentleman attempted a bout of fisticuffs, which got him thrown out and barred from the pub for life. While confronting people directly is often the correct course of action, it is impossible to know how they will react. Especially with strangers. The duder mentioned in the email that it was not a nice area of town, maybe he was afraid of the guy kicking him out and having to wait in some bizarro train station for a few hours.

It's human nature. I myself shy away from confrontation and find it awkward to do completely logical things because of the pressure induced by social situations. For example I used to attend my brothers "hangouts" for a while. He would invite me so I'd go but I wouldn't know anyone there and generally did not really share any interests with the guests. Yet no matter how bored or tired I was I always found it really difficult to just leave early, even though I barely knew any of those people or didn't really care what they thought of me. The act of being the odd person out was always very intimidating to me. I would have to really work up the nerve to simply stand up and say "Ok I'll be heading out see ya everyone" and that was honestly something that took a lot of effort on my part, such a simply and benign act of simply excusing yourself to go home. I imagine the author of that e-mail felt the same way.

@humanity: I'm not trying to criticize the author and I do understand the situation you describe, but when discussing such things and what a person should do, why isn't trying to learn to voice your concerns or feelings addressed? Why is coming up with excuses and ways to avoid confrontation the recommendation? It just seems so odd to me. I remember I was at a barbecue party and one of the guests had some food stuck in between his teeth. I overheard at least a couple people commenting to other people that he had something in there, but I was the first to actually tell the person. He wiped it off, said thanks and that was that. I just don't understand the behavior of avoiding something mildly uncomfortable when chances are the actual person in question probably appreciates being told what is what. At least not if you then proceed to tell everyone else how boring/terrible/disgusting that person is. I'm not trying to imply anything here, but for argument's sake let's imagine the author of the email is like the 'average' person. Which means he never did tell his friend or the host that he was having a bad time, not even afterwards, but did tell pretty much everyone else that story and how boring it was. If he were to actually be invited again, he'd say he's 'busy'. It just feels so disingenuous to me. All for trying to avoid something mildly uncomfortable.

From the way the person described the host, seems like the person lacks basic human interactions skills. I wouldn't be surprised if he even told him in a normal calm manner about how messed up the situation is that this person would have taken it in a very respectful way. For fuck sakes the cat took a shit behind his chair and the person didn't even bother to clean it up even after he was told about it. That's not how a normal person reacts.

Plus, as the emailer said, it was not a neighborhood you want to be out after a certain time. The host would have most likely told him to leave, or worse, kick him out.

@zevvion: I get that you don't understand how some people can have social anxiety. It isn't as simple as "Why can't these people just do what I would have done, it's so simple?" isn't really helpful for those suffering from social anxiety. That isn't unlike telling someone with severe depression to just stop being depressed or telling an agoraphobic to simply go for a walk through a park.

Perhaps try to empathize with others that are in different situations than you and realize that people see and feel things in ways that you just aren't going to be able to directly relate to or even fully understand. Just know that it isn't as simple for many of them as "just do it."

I think you have a very rose tinted view of people.

that would be a great place to live.

@zevvion: He did say he tried to get the guy to stop but he kept droning on.

@rigas: Could you imagine living in a world of reasonable well adjusted people who listened to each other and took everyone's opinions and advice on board... Actually, it sounds pretty boring ;) Kind of like the Neutral people in Futurama.

That was most certainly not what I was saying. The core of the matter is, why is avoiding confrontation/keeping your feelings to yourself/not doing something the standard and recommended approach? I didn't tell anyone with social anxiety to 'just do it'. This isn't the first time you're misinterpreting what I wrote down and you're being pretty judgmental about what you think I said.

I suppose there are time to be direct, but I don't know if a strangers house at night in a bad area is where I would be so blunt. It might also be that as the person was a friend of the emailer in question he might not won't to be so confrontational. I don't think the person who sent the email behaved at all the strangely. Why would you want to alienate your friend over something so small. Next time you just don't table top game with them; far easier than pissing off a friend by telling them what a "shitty" DM they are.

@zevvion: I don't know if it's the "standard approach" but that path is generally regarded as the polite thing to do. As weird as it sounds it is considered the polite thing to not point out that someone has something in their teeth and simply ignore it because depending on who you make aware of this fact they could either take it in stride or become extremely embarassed and uncomfortable, and good manners dictate that it is better to err on the side of caution. Now not to sound like an old fart, but the younger generation has been brought up in a much more Ayn Randish, objectivist, my happiness is my main goal in life sort of way, whereas I was brought up very much to think of everyone around me first before actually thinking of myself - something that isn't super helpful in todays world. Thats how the world is, or rather was, as more and more people are starting to see it from your perspective which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it does clash with how it used to be.

@humanity: I might make this way too theoretical with this, but can't telling someone count as thinking of others and not just yourself? That's how I see it. If I had something in my teeth and no one told me, then I found out later, I'd be far more embarrassed that I walked around like that the entire evening than if someone just told me immediately. It depends on the situation and most definitely on how you deliver the message of course, but I think being open and honest can actually be done from a place of caring about other people and not just yourself.

@zevvion: It can but thats not how it was traditionally taught, or at least thats not how I was taught. I was brought up with a very strict code of what is proper and what isn't. Don't point, hold doors open for women and elderly, eat food without making a lot of noise, don't be loud or obnoxious to others, respect your elders etc etc. This is only me of course, perhaps that is not where the person from the story is coming from. Maybe he does have social anxiety although I severely doubt that someone with serious social anxiety would sign up for such a trip at all seeing as when I had very mild anxiety I would already plan things ahead in order to not get boxed into a situation I couldn't quickly get out of in case I wasn't feeling well.

@humanity: Hmm, I'm sure what zevvion is advocating is not egocentric at all (or however you described it, as objectivist or Ayn Randish), I'd argue the opposite and quite agree that I find it odd that people more often than not avoid confrontation in this way. If I take the example of something between the teeth, I'd rather someone tell me, if I found out afterwards when everybody was 'politely ignoring' it, then I would be embarrassed. It might be more a cultural thing rather than a generational thing, although I agree younger generations (I'm not quite an old fart yet, not sure about your age) are generally being brought up –at least here– to be more direct and self-centered.

EDIT: Seems I took quite a while to type this up...

I was cringing through the entire discussion of the office email. I work in an open-concept office with little to no separation between workspaces. Personally, I get bugged by even minute things like someone's phone buzzing or music played too loud, though I generally keep that to myself. But, if someone was playing a sound board, then it would probably escalate like this:

• 1-2 sounds: Ha ha, that's funny!
• 3-5 sounds: ...
• 6-7 sounds: Ok, I think that's enough.
• 8-9 sounds: No seriously, stop it.
• 10-12 sounds: Let's have a chat in this room which I am temporarily hijacking as my office.
• 13+ sounds: The boss would like to have a chat with you in his permanent office.

The idea of going to a questionable part of town, a 2 hour train ride from home, at night at the home of someone you'd never met before (even with a mutual friend) was the weirdest part of the whole story for me. Not sure why you'd put yourself in that situation.

Having said all that I'm definitely the 'confront the problem' type of person and would have spoken up. Of course everyone is different as to how comfortable they are doing that so it's hard to judge.

I get what you're saying but at the same time... Have you ever hung out with humans?

:P :P :P

People just don't say what's on their minds sometimes! That's all.

Maybe they aren't all very close friends, maybe they are just shy, or who knows what. Maybe they did say something and it fell on deaf ears. Or maybe they thought "this was normal" and we all know how people hate to appear un-normal! Happens all the time. I think the point of that email was just that X person was being a bad host. Yes, if I was there, I would say something. But "say something" is a problem lots of people face. And I don't want to make light of hard situations etc but there are so, so many problems that supposedly would never occur if someone just "said something" (abuse, unhappy relationships/jobs/neighbours, lying mechanics, rude sales people, all of the isms that plague us). But they don't. And just because they don't, does not mean they are now suddenly as culpable for the situation (not saying you said that, but saying it myself). It's complex I guess, but isn't it always...

In my opinion, any rules about "how to interact with people" are misguided. Doesn't matter what the rule is. Everything depends on who the people are, how they know each other, how well they know each other, the situation at hand, how strongly everyone feels about that situation, culture where they live, etc so on and forever. It's a long list you need to analyse to give good interaction rules. Maybe our email writer as crippling anxiety. Maybe he the host just intimated him. Maybe, as crazy as his email sounded, he just didn't give that much a shit (no pun intended :D) at the time.

I'll tell you that in my life if I decide not to say something (say in the soundboard) example, it is usually out of a sort of "lack of faith" that it would matter at all. Even worse, in some cases I have mistrusted corporate policy or school culture so intensely that I was afraid doing the "right thing" would get me in hot water over what is really just an annoyance. So, I dunno. I ran this with this pretty far from your topic maybe Zevvion (sorry) but I guess all in all I wanted to say I see where you are coming from, but I think the Beastcast's advice is ultimately more "pragmatic" (if a little laiser faire, to borrow a phrase) than it is "idealistic" or even "right" in the Honest is Honour style.

I do think, in general, we are too apologetic as a people these days (in person, not online), but I think that is a reaction to also how much toxicity/rage seems to surround us right now. It's like we're exhausted from all the fighting around us when it comes time to confront anything we just sigh and want to fall asleep rather than get involved.

I can totally understand it. Not only does it actually take some balls to confront someone about an uncomfortable situation, but it's especially hard if it's a "friend of a friend" and there are other people around you don't know. Not saying I would ever find myself in such a situation, but if I was a 2 hour train ride from home late at night I would probably just bite the bullet and go along with it. Better to endure than find yourself in an even more awkward situation with no escape (or worse, out alone on an empty train station).
I'd like to say I would have confronted the person in question and ask wtf is his problem, but having never been in a "no escape" situation like that I don't know if I would. Whenever I've found myself in a similar situation I've always been able to just leave and go home, which would be my preferred option. I'd probably just say something along the lines of "I'm tired, I'm going home. Have fun you guys".

The younger me really identified with the e-mail. I've gotten better about it, but I used to be so confrontation adverse I definitely was in those type of situations sometimes. Now I know when to just leave or get out of the situation. Or I may try to say something, but I still might not and handle it in a rather similar way except as some point there I would have said I was tired or whatever and just ducked out. But of course this travel situation was odd for this story.

I agree with @mike that it's a social anxiety thing. I have that. To @humanity 's post, I do think you can have social anxiety issues and still do something like go on this trip. I really had crippling social anxiety issues when I was younger but I still would go to parties and do cool stuff with my friends. I just was definitely "tagging along" more than the one making the plans or anything. And then when I end up at a party or whatever I might be really quiet and avoid a situation to my detriment just like the e-mailer.

I am not saying this is the right way to go about things either. I have improved some in this regard and think it is in general an unhealthy way to live (it was for me). But it's amazing how you can think and reason when you are affected with something like this. Having improved in my current life, thinking back on the past when I was like that just seems like a different person who could have avoided a lot of trouble. I kick myself about that.

Not saying the e-mailer should have handled that differently, it was a tough situation. Just commenting on the mindset.

Maybe I am remembering incorrectly, but I thought the guy did try and tell him he doesn't need to be so extensive? If that was the case, I would of fucking left, because that is a huge waste of time.

Regarding the roleplay email: It can take a long time to go from "Oh, wow, this guy can't be this much of an asshole" to "Oh, god, I'm stuck here for the rest of the night, send help". Other thoughts that could be going through the victim's head might be:

• "He's a friend of my friend. My friend is an OK guy, so his friends must be OK people also."
• "Well, I signed up for this, so I might as well see this through."
• "My friend's here too, I can't let him down."
• "It's 3 AM, I'm a long way from home, I just need to tough it out."

A (more) trained psychologist would probably identify things like cognitive dissonance, learned helplessness, peer pressure and some similarities to the Kubler - Ross model of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance), then again, this isn't anything out of the ordinary and this happens a lot in most social situations to almost everyone.Everyone can have errors of judgement and be stuck with the consequences.

Regarding the workplace email: Everyone says they like honesty, but actually hates honest feedback and is hurt by that. Couple that with most people's tendencies to not needlessly hurt someone (by being honest), especially since it's "just during working hours", and you're left with bad habits that are left unchecked. And, since it's "just during work hours", you're not invested in that person enough to want him to better himself.

In that Vampire: The Masquerade email, it kinda sounds like the host and the other friends were either not interested in playing at the time or did not like that there was an outsider in the first place. As in, maybe their intent is not to welcome the emailer or to enjoy their time together after all, so of course nobody else tried to do something about it. Maybe the inviter is known to be very controlling in that group, so nobody bothered to refuse or call them out. Or maybe they're just too anxious, or too tired to care. There's a lot we don't know about the context there. The host couldn't even be bothered to clean their cat's poop.

Either way, specifically in a role-playing group, it's usually better to never directly confront someone with any aggression while in a group setting (out-of-character, at least.) It's a socially precarious activity (even with a group of close friends) and you kinda learn to let the sleeping dogs lie. It's something that the emailer should confront their friend about after the fact.