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#1 Edited by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

Hi all !

I'm creating this topic because I'm really don't know where I should ask my question. I'm sorry if this not the appropriated place. Don't hesitate to tell me where I should ask my question in that case.

I submitted a new game for the database, approximately 1 month ago, and I still have no answer. I don't have any notification or something, so I'd like to know if this is normal and what I can do about that.

The game is Thief: Gold

Thank you for your replies :)

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#2 Posted by totsboy (485 posts) -

Did you check if it was added? I think for the last games I added I did not get a reply, the game was simply added.

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#3 Posted by Rigas (765 posts) -
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#4 Posted by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

Thanks for your answers.

@totsboy Yes I checked the list of games but still didn't see it.

@rigas Oh I didn't see that.
Well is it possible to do something to change this ?

The thing is people who play this game on twitch would like to make the difference when playing the one or the other, especially when they are playing gold content.

Also, saying that Thief:Gold is a release of Thief:The Dark Project seems a bit unapproprtiate. Technically, it is 100% true that gold is only an "upgrade" of TDP, cause there are 3 moremissions and some other stuff added, but still it was considered as a new game and back in 1999 it wasn't sold as an "extension" of TDP, but as another game.

Is there any possibility to make this changing ?

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#5 Posted by Rigas (765 posts) -

It's not an expansion. Its not a new stand alone game. At best by modern stardards its a game with some additional DLC.

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#6 Edited by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

Sure, but it this a reason to not make it a distinct entity in the database ? I mean it has many differences with the original game. It's not only new levels it's also modifications of the original TDP with new guards in some missions etc. This was actually considered as a standalone game when it came out. It wasn't considered as an extension or release of TDP

The thing is, on twitch we have many people playing Thief: Gold and Tgief: The Dark Project. Those people, especially some of the speedrunners, would really like to make the distinction, and be able to show that they are playing TG and not TDP. If there is a way to make that happen without putting TG in the Giant Bomb database, then it's fine. But then can you tell me how we can do that ?

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#7 Edited by Rigas (765 posts) -

Yeah thats is exactly the reason why its not seperate. This Database doesn't exist to make things convienient to Twitch streamers. If they want i'm sure they can contact Twitch Support and Twitch can contact the business people at CBS to negotiate a deal to restructure the whole database for you.

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#8 Posted by dudeglove (13603 posts) -

Under your profile is your "wiki history" which should show you the state of your submissions and if they have been accepted or rejected

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#9 Posted by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

I'm sorry but I think it's a bit shocking that the database "doesn't exist to make things convenient to Twitch streamers". I mean how the official database provided to twitch can intentionnaly not being convenient for streamers considering streamers are the heart of twitch ?

Sure we have no problem with contacting Twitch support. We don't want the whole database to be restructured but if we can make it possible to make two games different entities when there are enough differences to make it happen, that would be good.

So if I understand well there I must contact twitch support ? Nothing more can be done on Giant Bomb side for now ?

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#10 Posted by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

Thanks @dudeglove ^^ Hmm yeah it was denied indeed but it would have been nice to have an explanation for it.

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#11 Edited by Savage (774 posts) -

I'm sorry but I think it's a bit shocking that the database "doesn't exist to make things convenient to Twitch streamers". I mean how the official database provided to twitch can intentionnaly not being convenient for streamers considering streamers are the heart of twitch ?

This database is not and was never designed for Twitch's usage or for the convenience of streamers. Twitch apes this database rather than do the hard work of creating their own.


So if I understand well there I must contact twitch support ? Nothing more can be done on Giant Bomb side for now ?

That's right, the only place to try appealing is at Twitch. The rules for the Giant Bomb database, since the beginning over a decade ago (before Twitch existed), state that when different versions of a game are predominantly identical, they should share a single wiki page. On that page is where the version differences should be described in detail.

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#12 Posted by dudeglove (13603 posts) -

Thanks @dudeglove ^^ Hmm yeah it was denied indeed but it would have been nice to have an explanation for it.

Only in severe instances such as plagiarism will you get mod explanations. As has been stated above, this stuff has been codified already.

You might have more luck appealing to twitch (good luck!) considering @alexisg works there now after working on GB.

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#13 Posted by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

Ok I understand what you say about twitch.

But I must still insist on the fact that Thief: Gold should be considered as a standalone game.
- you don't need any of the TDP assets to make TG works. Considering you don't need the original to play it, it IS a standalone, otherwise it would be a DLC or something. it is the same mechanism than dark souls 2 dark souls 2: scholar which are separated
- TG is not just 3 additionnal missions. It's also a modification of the mission "Break From Cragscleft Prison" with new guards and paths, adding of fireghosts in "Down in the Bonehard" and "The Haunted Cathedral", New ennemies and objectives modified in "The Lost City" and many stuff like that.

If I follow your logic, TG is a standalone game, especially regarding the first point I just wrote. It was never sold as an "extension" or something. Regarding this, would it be possible to reconsider my request ?

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#14 Posted by Rigas (765 posts) -

If I follow your logic, TG is a standalone game, especially regarding the first point I just wrote. It was never sold as an "extension" or something. Regarding this, would it be possible to reconsider my request ?

if you were following my logic. it would be like a software update. A version 1.2 instead of 1.0. Like how Pokemon yellow has a different Safari Zone or Skyrim has a high res texture pack you can get.

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#15 Edited by ArbitraryWater (15558 posts) -

These sorts of updated re-releases are tricky, and I'd ask someone like @marino what the line is. I can see an argument to be made for Thief: Gold as a separate page, a laResident Evil: Director's Cut, but I believe the general wiki policy has more to do with the degree of difference rather than anything else. (honestly, I might argue that RE: Director's Cut doesn't necessarily need to be a separate page if we're going to wade into this)

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#16 Posted by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

@rigas it's not a software update that's why I am trying to say. Software update means you need the original stuff to apply the update. Thief: Gold is not an "update" that you can add on an existing Thief: The Dark Project. It is a separated game. You can't create a TG from a TDP with an update or something. TG was sold as a separated CD and jacket. So technically speaking, it is a standalone game.

Also btw I see that this logic isn't always applied for all games. @arbitrarywater I'm glad you took an example of another game cause I noticed indeed some of the game in the database could be considered as "extensions" but are still separated stuff. For instance Grand Theft Auto: Episodes from Liberty City https://www.giantbomb.com/grand-theft-auto-episodes-from-liberty-city/3030-26616/ is clearly described as a "disc-based product consisting of the two DLC packs for Grand Theft Auto IV. It includes both Grand Theft Auto: The Lost and Damned and Grand Theft Auto: The Ballad of Gay Tony. The achievements for the game will not be separate and will add on to GTA IV's achievements."
If I read again what you wrote it can hardly be considered as a standalone game as it is a merge of two DLC's, and still it's separated in teh database. And there are other examples like that. If this one is legit to be separated, I believe TG is even more considering TG was never an "official extension" but a "official new game" .

@arbitrarywater concerning the differences between the two games, there are a lot. From an external point of view, I understand it feels like "it's just a fix of TDP" but I spoke about it to the Thief community, and they agree with me that it is much more. I mean there are more missions but also more stuff on the lore. And also new stuff in the mission That already existed in TDP. In term of gameplay, it makes a big difference. In the database, there is many unlisted differences. Taking in account all of these, I think there is enough to separate the two.

So, if we talk in term of "extension", "DLC" etc., I'm 100% TG can be separated, cause it is definitely an official standalone game.

Now if we talk in term of degree of difference the debate is a bit more tricky. I still think there are enough difference to justify a separation, but if you want I can give you a precise list of teh changes and you can judge by yourself ?

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#17 Posted by soulcake (2458 posts) -

If twitch used there own DB :D. I am guessing @rorie get's these "you should add X to the database" questions all the time poor fella.

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#18 Edited by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

I agree it would be easier it Twitch add their own DB. Anyway, even without considering Twitch, I think the require of this game in the database as a separated one is a legit debate. Of course my personnal goal here is for streamers, I'm not hiding it, but still the game is a standalone indeed, and if I understand well what was explained to me in this topic about how GB DB works, I think this request is legit or at least diserve to be discussed

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#19 Posted by Bethrezen (10 posts) -

Up.

So, any chance of seing TG in the DB considering last arguments I gave ?

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#20 Edited by vinone (304 posts) -

From the Wiki Rules/FAQ:

"Game pages are organized by title, not by individual releases. As such, there is a release section to every game, which will allow you to document all the different regions the game has come out in, as well as the different platforms it has spanned, and compilations that it's been a part of.

Note that gold, limited, collectors, GOTY (etc.) editions of games go under the release category, they do not get their own game page. This includes compilations of games which may feature several other games long with the title in question. There are specific exceptions to the rule with games that come bundled as one package and appear on a certain platform by only that means (such as The Orange Box), but generally these are all releases. If you're not sure if it should be a release or not, PM the mods and they'll give you an answer."

So from my interpretation of that rule I don't think you're going to have much luck getting it listed as a separate game on the Wiki with this forum post. Especially trying the Twitch argument (as I'm sure you noticed). As someone stated though, PM a mod if you want closure on this.

Also in regards to GTA IV and DLC Add-Ons:

"Unless a game gets a stand-alone or retail disc expansion pack, the type of add-on associated with it will generally be that of DLC (downloadable content). This includes but is not limited to: Songs (Albums/Packs/Individual), Multiplayer Add-ons, Singleplayer Add-ons, Equipment/Clothing, Cheats, Characters, and Stages. Simply add a name for the DLC content, the platform it appears on, the date of release, the price it sells for, and a short description of the content for download."