Character Appearance ≠ Franchise

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Marino

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#1  Edited By Marino  Staff
Professional NBA Jam Enthusiast
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I've spent most of my morning cleaning up a mess that revealed a much larger issue.

Here's the issue. Just because a character makes an appearance in a certain game doesn't necessarily make that game part of that character's franchise.

This started by someone adding every conceivably related franchise to the Super Smash Bros. game pages. For example, they were adding The Legend of Zelda, Metroid, F-Zero, Donkey Kong, etc. to the Smash Bros. pages. Yes, characters from those franchises appear in those games, but Super Smash Bros. is not a game in the Kirby franchise. No one is going to say "Smash Bros. is my favorite F-Zero game."

Sweet Tooth appearing in Hot Shots Golf 2 doesn't make HSG2 part of the Twisted Metal series.

The Halo franchise does not include Dead or Alive 4.

PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale is not your favorite God of War game.

I hope this makes sense. Now, back to cleaning up this mess.

Thanks.

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bobafettjm

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#2  Edited By bobafettjm

If you know of more of these I can help you.

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Hailinel

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#3  Edited By Hailinel

Ugh. What a mess.

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HellBrendy

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#4  Edited By HellBrendy

Surprisingly enough, this made me laugh.

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#5  Edited By ZombiePie

@MooseyMcMan said:

Well, I don't know. Smash Bros. Brawl had an extensive story mode with all of those characters in it. Who's to say it's not canon with the Mario universe, for example? Of course, then the problem would be knowing where to draw the line. It might be canon for Mario, but it's definitely not for Metal Gear Solid (well, I probably shouldn't say that, those games are kinda silly).

But for the most part, I agree.

That sort of distinction, or hard drawn line, is exactly what we are trying to make. Super Smash Bros. is not a Mario game because we don't consider it one and just because it has Mario characters it does not qualify to be attached to the Mario franchise. It is very clear that the Smash Bros.

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insanity_pepper

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#6  Edited By insanity_pepper

I'll try to fix something like that if I come across it. I feel like I've seen plenty instances of that happening.

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Hailinel

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#7  Edited By Hailinel

@MooseyMcMan said:

Well, I don't know. Smash Bros. Brawl had an extensive story mode with all of those characters in it. Who's to say it's not canon with the Mario universe, for example? Of course, then the problem would be knowing where to draw the line. It might be canon for Mario, but it's definitely not for Metal Gear Solid (well, I probably shouldn't say that, those games are kinda silly).

But for the most part, I agree.

It's not canon for any of them. It's a story confined to Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I can't believe that someone would even attempt the argument you're trying to make.

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#8  Edited By Nottle

@MooseyMcMan said:

Well, I don't know. Smash Bros. Brawl had an extensive story mode with all of those characters in it. Who's to say it's not canon with the Mario universe, for example? Of course, then the problem would be knowing where to draw the line. It might be canon for Mario, but it's definitely not for Metal Gear Solid (well, I probably shouldn't say that, those games are kinda silly).

But for the most part, I agree.

Turns out Snake in Brawl is just Raiden in VR training. CANON.

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Baillie

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#9  Edited By Baillie

It's a bit sad that this has to be said, why can't people use their brains?

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adoggz

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#10  Edited By adoggz

yeah well, super smash brothers melee happens to be my favorite F zero game. whats that? it doesnt matter? ok, I'll go back to not caring about the wiki then.

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iAmJohn

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#11  Edited By iAmJohn

Lol.

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Dagbiker

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#12  Edited By Dagbiker

Is an intern now? Why dose he have a staff tag?

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#13  Edited By Marino  Staff

@Dagbiker said:

Is an intern now? Why dose he have a staff tag?

Not an intern. I helped during E3 by uploading 100+ videos. If you watched any of the trailers during E3, it was likely me that put it on the site. Since then I've basically just been keeping community stuff on the front page current and sharing data in the form of blogs.

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#14  Edited By Dagbiker

@Marino: Ok, I guess I just haven't noticed it until now.

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#15  Edited By Marino  Staff

@Dagbiker said:

@Marino: Ok, I guess I just haven't noticed it until now.

Most people don't. Maybe if the Staff bar and Moderator bar weren't both red.

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#16  Edited By Slag

@Marino said:

@Dagbiker said:

Is an intern now? Why dose he have a staff tag?

Not an intern. I helped during E3 by uploading 100+ videos. If you watched any of the trailers during E3, it was likely me that put it on the site. Since then I've basically just been keeping community stuff on the front page current and sharing data in the form of blogs.

That's awesome duder and congrats!

Sorry about that mess you found, sounds like a doozy. I assume there's no reset button you could hit to undo all that user's edits to afflicted pages?

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#17  Edited By bemusedchunk

F-Zero is my favorite Smash Bros. game.

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#18  Edited By TheMasterDS

What about cases where the first appearance of a character was in a cross over game? Like Banjo and Conker's first game was both Diddy Kong Racing, surely Diddy Kong Racing is as much a part of their franchises as Diddy's?

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#19  Edited By mandude

@TheMasterDS said:

What about cases where the first appearance of a character was in a cross over game? Like Banjo and Conker's first game was both Diddy Kong Racing, surely Diddy Kong Racing is as much a part of their franchises as Diddy's?

Those were retroactive cameos. I call them retcams.

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#20  Edited By ZombiePie

@TheMasterDS said:

What about cases where the first appearance of a character was in a cross over game? Like Banjo and Conker's first game was both Diddy Kong Racing, surely Diddy Kong Racing is as much a part of their franchises as Diddy's?

The game should be attached to the appropriate character pages as an appearance, but because it is not a part of the "canon" of dedicated games it should not be attached to the general franchise page.

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#22  Edited By TheMasterDS

@ZombiePie said:

@TheMasterDS said:

What about cases where the first appearance of a character was in a cross over game? Like Banjo and Conker's first game was both Diddy Kong Racing, surely Diddy Kong Racing is as much a part of their franchises as Diddy's?

The game should be attached to the appropriate character pages as an appearance, but because it is not a part of the "canon" of dedicated games it should not be attached to the general franchise page.

Who said DKR isn't cannon to Banjo or Conker?

Edit: Quick, it's example time! From the Bumper page

In a self-narrated press release for Conker: Live & Reloaded, Conker reflects on his Diddy Kong Racing days by saying "It goes without saying that you wouldn't catch me hanging out with any of those freaks these days. Last I heard at least one of 'em was in jail, anyway."

It's on the Bumper page because Leigh Loveday later said it was Bumper who was in jail.

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#23  Edited By Marino  Staff

@mandude said:

@TheMasterDS said:

What about cases where the first appearance of a character was in a cross over game? Like Banjo and Conker's first game was both Diddy Kong Racing, surely Diddy Kong Racing is as much a part of their franchises as Diddy's?

Those were retroactive cameos.

Just because they first appeared there doesn't make it part of their own franchise. Diddy Kong Racing is part of the Donkey Kong franchise. That's not to say some games can be part of two franchises, but Diddy Kong Racing is not a game in the Conker series. Conker simply appears in the game.

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 is not part of the Spider-Man franchise.

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 is not a Star Wars game.

These examples could go on forever.

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TheMasterDS

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#24  Edited By TheMasterDS

Let me ask this another way real fast. Marvel Vs Capcom is not part of the Iron Man franchise, but is The Avengers?

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#25  Edited By Marino  Staff

@TheMasterDS said:

Let me ask this another way real fast. Marvel Vs Capcom is not part of the Iron Man franchise, but is The Avengers?

I would say no. We have a Marvel franchise page as well as an Avengers franchise page that would both apply to an Avengers game.

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#26  Edited By slowbird

I just fixed something sorta similar to this:

From what I've been able to uncover, Beetle Adventure Racing was originally intended to be a Need for Speed game, and was thusly made using the Need for Speed physics engine, which apparently was the reason someone decided to add it to the Need for Speed franchise. That's not sound logic.

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#27  Edited By Marino  Staff
@slowbird

I just fixed something sorta similar to this:

From what I've been able to uncover, Beetle Adventure Racing was originally intended to be a Need for Speed game, and was thusly made using the Need for Speed physics engine, which apparently was the reason someone decided to add it to the Need for Speed franchise. That's not sound logic.

Yeah. Following that logic would put Sleeping Dogs in the True Crime franchise, which it should not be.
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#28  Edited By Brackynews

This is rough stuff. I think I caught sight of one or two franchise oddities, blinked, and continued on my way. Will keep a sharper eye.

@bemusedchunk said:

F-Zero is my favorite Smash Bros. game.

On the Citadel.

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#29  Edited By ManMadeGod

" Just because a character makes an appearance in a certain game doesn't necessarily make that game part of that character's franchise."

"Just because they first appeared there doesn't make it part of their own franchise."

ok, so should I remove Donkey Kong from the Mario franchise page? Hell, he's not even called Mario in that game.

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#30  Edited By LordAndrew

Donkey Kong is a Mario game. It's also a Donkey Kong game. Mario makes more than just an appearance — he's the sole protagonist.

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#31  Edited By Marino  Staff

@ManMadeGod: What said.

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#32  Edited By Vigorousjammer

I'm curious what the rule for the Mario Party games would be. There's already a Mario Party franchise page and they would obviously all be added there, but would they also be added to the main Mario franchise? What about the rest of the Mario Sports/ Mario Kart games? I mean on one hand each of them has the majority of the characters from those franchises and even has "Mario" right in the title for each. Then again, they're not exactly direct sequels to the main games in the Mario franchise, and don't share any similar mechanics. It seems like a thin line for sure.

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@Vigorousjammer No, they wouldn't. It's mainly because there's about a dozen Mario Party's out there. If there's only one or two spinoffs of a certain nature, then it's probably safe to say that it's part of a franchise, but the Mario Party and Mario Sports series have long histories full of so many games that it would just clutter the Mario Franchise page with too many of them.

It's like if I have five Ferraris where four are red and one is yellow. you could organize those into one collection. Later on, however, there are 12 reds, 8 yellows, and 10 blues. For the sake of organization, it's best to separate them into their own categories.

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#34  Edited By Vigorousjammer

@gruebacca:

I agree, It makes more sense to me that way. I mean, Mork may have originally appeared in Happy Days, but I wouldn't say Mork & Mindy is part of the Happy Days franchise.

Then again... I would consider Josie & The Pussycats in Outer Space to be part of the Josie & the Pussycats franchise. I'm conflicted about all this.

I'll wait for confirmation from staff or a mod before changing anything.

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@gruebacca: @vigorousjammer: sadly though, this logic is not reflected in the actual wiki pages and the mario franchise page IS cluttered with all these random spin offs (at least when I last checked) ...and the same goes for other franchises, too.

we REALLY need an easy, well integrated guide system that EVERYONE can find without having to look through all the forums or outdated FAQs.

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I've been wondering the same thing about minigames... Like, for example, if Shenmue contains a minigame of Space Harrier... Would that technically make it part of the Space Harrier franchise if it contains Space Harrier as a minigame?

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@jagged85: My opinion would be no, since the actual game is not a part of that franchise.