Platform request: separate PC and Windows

At the moment PC is considered as Windows which is misleading. Linux is no less PC than Windows so I think it would be great if they would be treated equally.

I don't know which would be the best way but instead of having "PC" and "Linux" there could be for example:

• PC Window
• PC Linux

There are games which works also on Linux and ARM and on other architectures which makes things a bit more complex ...

But the platform is called "PC" on the site, not "Windows". If it was the other way around, sure, totally. A Linux computer is still a PC. The Surface Pro X is still a PC. If it runs on a Linux PC, then it undoubtedly works on Windows x86 as well.

You said it yourself. "Linux is no less PC than Windows..."

Okay, cool. One category it is then.

"...so I think it would be great if they would be treated equally."

They are. With the one, all encompassing category called "PC".

@falconer: If I choose PC it shows a Windows logo beside text "PC" - so PC == Windows. I need to choose Linux and then it shows Tux beside text "Linux". Maybe Windows could be separate option just like Linux.

It is like most of the developers says that the game is going to be available for "PC" when they mean just Windows. If it will be available for Linux they say "PC (Windows) and Linux".

My understanding is that the PC platform is not an all-encompassing platform for any and all non-console hardware, but I could certainly be mistaken. Mac and Linux have their own platform pages for precisely that reason. That said, it does become a bit more complicated by the fact that the vast majority of Mac/Linux titles will see release on Windows too, thus fitting the page either way.

That said, while "PC" for modern releases would thus mean "Windows release", the page itself covers more than just that, including MS-DOS and IBM as "PC". While these could theoretically be separated, it would be a massive undertaking to relabel the pages of games released for those platforms, especially since the current setup works fine as-is.

Eh... I'm not sure if the work to get this untangled would be worth it. As has been pointed out, other operating systems have their own pages so if something has a Linux version, then by all means, attach it to its respective page. If a game has a Linux port, then it almost certainly has a Windows version, and the exceptions to that rule are so obscure and few and far-between that you could just make a note on the handful of exception pages and call it a day.

Also worth noting that the lines here have become pretty blurry over the past few years. Microsoft has made the Linux kernel available in Windows - you can now run Linux native programs in Windows, natively, if you know what you're doing. Proton/Lutris/DXVK and other such efforts have also resulted in a majority of Windows games being playable in Linux distros, especially ones like Ubuntu and Pop! OS, provided you're willing to deal with some weirdness and small performance hits.

@justin258: It is probably not worth of it but it would have been a nice improvement.
When a game is announced to be available for "PC" means that Linux users has to go check if it will be available for Linux as well. It makes one feel like second class gamer.

I wasn't aware that Windows includes Linux kernel these days. I tought WSL translates Linux system calls to Windows's kernel ones, etc.

WSL 2 does according to this.

WSL 2 uses an entirely new architecture that benefits from running a real Linux kernel.

As for this:

When a game is announced to be available for "PC" means that Linux users has to go check if it will be available for Linux as well. It makes one feel like second class gamer.

Remember that this is a user-editable Wiki and not something managed entirely by a nebulous group of unseen, unheard-from dudes. You could always start adding Linux-native games to the Linux page.

I hope that doesn't sound too much like me saying "do it yourself", but... well... essentially that's what I mean.

For me personally, I am currently running Linux, I have spent a good chunk of today playing games on this Ubuntu partition, and... I can't say that I feel like a second class gamer here? But also, when I started playing games on Linux I accepted that I'm doing something unusual, mostly unsupported, and likely to be riddled with issues, so having to look up if a game is native or if I'm going to need to mess with Lutris/Proton/Wine was just part of the package.

@spacegg: I would think keeping Linux as a separate platform tag on the wiki would make that first point easier. That way a Linux gamer could simply look at the page and note the Linux tag, instead of having to wonder whether "PC" referred to just Windows, or Windows and Mac, or all three, as it typically does in press releases.

It's unfortunate that Mac/Linux are so often looked over when games receive ports, but that's less an issue with the way the wiki is formatted and more of an issue with OS userbases present and historic, and a wide swath of economic factors.

@franzlska:

I would think keeping Linux as a separate platform tag on the wiki would make that first point easier.

I agree. What about having a tag "Windows" instead of "PC" ?

More serious Linux gaming is still a new thing and Microsoft has decades of head start so in that sense I understand that idea of PC == Windows has stuck tightly. It doesn't mean that things should stay that way.

@justin258: Pretty interesting. Linux has really got pretty much everywhere... :)

All my computers are Linux based and I use it for daily use, work and gaming. Fedora + Flatpak + Steam

The "problem" I was referencing was tags in Wiki page where "PC" is considered as Windows. I just think it would be nice if operating systems were treated equally and would have their own tags.
When developers separates PC and Linux it feels a bit downer especially when their effort is "subpar" as well.

Do you mean like this?

Over on Platform, where you can add Linux?

I understand that you want the term "PC" to explicitly be an "equal opportunity catch-all term" as far as this Wiki is concerned, but it seems like you could get 90% of the way there by adding Linux to "Platform" for any game with native Linux support.

Potentially, you could change the page for "PC" to "Windows" so that everything with the PC tag now says Windows, edit the now-named-Windows page so that it reflects its new name, delete the old Windows page, and then make a new PC page that describes PC as a term that means "any OS intended for use on a personal laptop or desktop". But that's all contingent on approval from Wiki moderators.

It sounds like you're thinking of the problem backwards. Linux users already have a flag to see if the game is on Linux or not, it's Windows users who have no simple way to tell whether a PC game is on Windows.

@eccentrix: In this case "PC" means Windows. So if there is Linux-only game then it would be only available for Linux but not for PC. Tag "PC" has Windows logo beside it.

PC also refers to games that were on DOS, not just Windows.

Which is a problem for Windows users, not Linux users. If you take the icon very literally, it's a miscategorization at most and Linux exclusives shouldn't be tagged as PC games. Changing or removing the icon for PC won't change anything for people wanting to see if a game is on Linux.

I think you're probably right that PC should be an umbrella term or something, but I don't think not having Windows as a platform is changing anything about how Linux users search for games on the site. Linux is already its own platform. You can just ignore the PC tag if you're only looking for Linux games.

@eccentrix:

If you take the icon very literally, it's a miscategorization at most and Linux exclusives shouldn't be tagged as PC games.

That's kind of funny situation.

An idea of PC == Windows is pushed so much everywhere that it is hard me to believe would a problem for Windows users. Developers are working on PC and Linux versions, when Microsoft acquires a developer gaming sites writes it is good news for "PC gamers", etc.

The request is more like a small step forward that PC would be considered as an "umbrella term" instead of its to mean Windows. I guess it would be too much work to get all wiki pages changed (DB changes etc.) but I hope one day things would be different.

@spacegg: So to clarify, this a rename request? We have a Linux platform page.

@zombiepie: Yes, that's all good. I think what would be nice, is to have own platform pages for Windows and "free" PC for "umbrella" use. Now PC is used just for Windows/MS-DOS. At the moment it is not possible to tag non-Windows/DOS games as PC games.

Wait, why not? Is this the issue and I've been missing the point? Is there a technical reason you can't tag games with both PC and Linux/Mac, etc? These other platforms are listed on the PC page.

@eccentrix: It's fully possible, and many games are tagged as released on PC, Mac, Linux, etc. For example, see Terraria, which has all three and many more. As best I can tell, spacegg is referring to the fact that - under the currently-used system and definitions the wiki has been operating under - a game released solely for Linux would only be tagged as Linux, and not as PC, since it released on Linux, and not on Windows.

While I can see how that would potentially be frustrating, in my opinion it's an issue that doesn't need fixing, and one which would be far more effort to correct, since it would mean going through all games tagged PC before ~1995 and correcting them to differentiate between MS-DOS, IBM, Windows, and any other assorted PC platforms from the era. I assume that issue is part of why Linux and Mac have their own pages to begin with (as those have been very clearly defined platforms since their inception) whereas the lines between non-Mac/Linux computer systems back in the day were a bit less clear.

@eccentrix: There is no technical reason but PC tag is used for Windows so using it for non-Windows games would be confusing. Wouldn't it be better if Windows and all other OSs would have their own tag/platform page (like Linux has) so PC could be used with all operating systems; Linux, Windows, *BSD, Haiku, etc.

@spacegg: That would be better, and I thought that's how it was always used (which explains my initial posts in this thread); that's what makes sense to me. I can't find any examples of Linux exclusive games, but the couple of Mac exclusives I can find are indeed tagged as Mac and not PC as well.

The PC page says "Here are the currently supported operating systems for PCs" and then lists and describes Microsoft Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Should this section be removed if the PC page doesn't cover Mac and Linux?

I see no need to untangle anything, because this proposal does not tangle anything. There should be Windows OS, Linux OS, and Mac OS designations in this database. We need no retroactive fix, just make designations when 'lacked' clarity. Sites evolve, terminology evolve, and expectation of what designations are offered evolve too.

This is just another "what is normal" what will be considered "default" argument again. We need not be constrained by thinking Windows NEEDS to be seen as default, because we can be less presumptive and more open.

I really see no reason as of right now to add Linux or Mac games to PC since they already have their own platforms. Maybe rename the current PC platform and move the info for Linux/Mac to their respective pages?