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#1 Posted by NotSoSneakyGuy (226 posts) -

I feel like the lede was buried here, or I missed something.

As I recall in the first Destiny, legendary weapons were assigned random sights and weapon perks, while obviously limited to to a certain set based on weapon type.

I was watching youtuber Datto's comparison video between Better Devils and The Old Fashioned, and when he was described the perks, as though they were forgone conclusions, I furrowed my brow.

Did they mentioned this is pre-release, and I missed it?

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, as with each expansion they've refined the perks that weapons get. I can also see this being a 'Fairness and Balance' change, as you see the weapon in PVP, you will know the exact capabilities of the weapon. I see the argument that each legendary weapon is now a hand crafted experience vs. a random chance of something between totally awesome or utter crap.

My instinctual thoughts are that it makes weapons feel incredibly less diverse. Lowering highs and raising lows.

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#2 Posted by TheRealTurk (506 posts) -

They did announce it pre-release and for my money its actually a good change. It allows you (a) know exactly what you are getting with a legendary and (b) set definitive priorities between them. For example, I really don't like the way Sweet Business operates, but because the perks are pre-determined, I know I will always not like it. No more grinding on the loot treadmill wondering if a version of the weapon exists with better perks.

In the past I'd horde unused legendaries because I could never guarantee that I'd find a better version of that weapon. Now, if I don't like it, I know I'll never like it and can just disassemble it or use it for infusion.

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#3 Posted by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

Yeah, static rolls on weapons was announced pretty quickly after the actual D2 announcement many months before launch. It's something I was very worried would water down the quality of weapons in Destiny 2, and to my not so surprise it's exactly what has happened. God rolled weapons don't exist anymore. What we do have in Destiny 2 are pretty decent rolls that never change. So in my honest opinion it's hard to say if the less accurate, less aim assisted, and all around less spectacularly perk'd weapons are why they just feel a bit off, but Destiny 2's gunplay doesn't quite feel as good as Destiny 1 did. That being said it's still better than pretty much every other FPS out there so it feels weird to say that. I think Bungie just felt that abilities and weapons were too good in Destiny 1 and they were having to jump through hoops to make encounters that were challenging enough for players. Consequently they nerfed us across the board. It makes sense, but as someone who put a few thousand hours into Destiny, it's been hardish adjusting to some of those type changes. Destiny 1 felt really good. But I'm quickly getting use to it. I do also fear that many players like myself are going to quickly run out of things to do since there isn't much to collect.

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#4 Posted by Inresurrection (463 posts) -

@hestilllives19: Very well put. I didn't put nearly as many hours into Destiny 2 as you, but I definitely know what you mean by Destiny 1's guns feeling a bit better overall. I feel like Destiny 2 has a solid enough foundation to expand into something pretty wonderful, but I also think they won't take quite as much player feedback into account as they did with the first game. The expansions are probably more solid in terms of preconception than D1's were, in terms of how much player feedback will change the way Bungie decides to tweak the evolution of Destiny 2. Only time will tell, though.

Damn. Now you've got me thinking about Destiny 1's snappiness and the gunplay. Definitely not the first time I've heard this uttered.

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#5 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

They did announce that pretty soon after the D2 reveal.

I am glad they don't exist anymore. Everyone is on a level-playing field now and even though I was a person that put thousands of hours into the game so I obtained all the great rolled weapons, I can't say I was specifically looking forward to grinding something for a hundred hours to get there. I think they can and should expand on the modification system for weapons to make them more refined in the area you want them in though. The amount of randomness with mods is pretty limited right now, so it's not like you have to grind forever to get a certain mod.

Looking back at Destiny is makes me wonder why random rolls were ever a thing if I am being honest. In hindsight it is such a poor idea. You are literally losing because you weren't as lucky as the guy who just killed you. He could shotgun you from a distance you couldn't shotgun him from, so even though you were more skilled and pulled the trigger quicker, he wins. This is a bit hyperbolic, but it was always a factor to gunfights.

As someone who isn't the best player on the planet, I quite like that aspect being completely gone now. If I get killed now, it is because they were better than me, at least in that moment.

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#6 Edited by ll_Exile_ll (3014 posts) -

@zevvion: @hestilllives19:

I have to say I agree with Zev and disagree with Lives on this one.

Random rolls were terrible system, and the game is better without them. It just created too much variability for them to ever hope to balance either PvE or PvP, and especially not both at the same time like they tried to do. It creates this situation where only the the lucky or the highly committed end up getting the best weapons, and especially early in the game's life span we saw Bungie seemingly caught off guard by how good some perk combinations ended up being. Later in the game's life, it was clear to see them walking back the random roll concept, as most guns only had a small selection of possible rolls and there were fewer bad perks and many of the OP ones had been nerfed or removed.

Additionally, it added an element of frustrating randomness when you wanted something specific and spent countless hours trying to get it and never did. When something like a highly sought after version of the Imago Loop had a less than 1% chance of rolling, with the drop rate of the weapon itself further lower your chances in addition to the fact that it could only drop in one specific activity that took 10-15 minutes to run every time, you're looking at a ridiculous barrier to get the thing you want. Granted, this is an extreme example, but there were many weapons in the first two years of Destiny with dozens or hundreds of possible rolls with only a handful of good combos. It was a system built around repeated frustration with the slim hope of excitement.

Now, I say the game is better without random rolls, but I also think each gun having one set roll isn't ideal either. I'd much rather Bungie create 4 or 5 handcrafted rolls for each legendary weapon. That would be the best of both worlds as far as I'm concerned. The total permutations would be kept to a level that wouldn't make getting the one you want a daunting exercise in grinding. Having multiple possible rolls for every weapon would bring back that feeling of variety in the weapon drops. And finally, all the rolls being handcrafted would allow Bungie to maintain control over balance while also creating interesting versions of weapons with synergizing perks designed for different playstyles.

I want multiple weapon rolls back, but I want a person to design them, not the whims of random numbers.

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#7 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@ll_exile_ll: There is something about not having any weapon rolls, not even two hand crafted ones, that really appeals to me though. Whenever I get killed in Crucible and see which weapon kills me, I won't have to play any guess-games on why I was killed. I know the weapon in question, I know the perks it has, I understand what killed me. If there were multiple variations, knowing which weapon killed me still wouldn't tell me much unless I knew all the possible configurations of that weapon off the top of my head.

I think this is a rather smart change to make the game more accessible. I am not saying it is perfect, but I think Bungie can come up with something more interesting than just more weapon configurations. I thought the weapon mod system sounded very appealing, until I learned all it can do is swap the elemental type on your weapon. I think they can definitely explore that aspect of it some more.

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#8 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (6353 posts) -

There are enough pros and cons to each system that I'm still not sure if I'd prefer random rolls or not. I do hate how some of the most worthless perks have been carried forward, though.

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#9 Posted by Shadow (5356 posts) -

I both do and don't like it. I liked the borderlands-style variation in guns you could get. On the other hand, that threw off the PvP balance by a lot, since there were always certain rolls of specific guns that were absurdly overpowered compared to anything else. With this change, you still have to find the gun you want to use. But you don't have to find 100 of them to get the right one to be competitive.

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#10 Posted by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@zevvion: @ll_exile_ll: Whoa there, I never said I preferred the Random Roll system. I'm actually rather enjoying the new system if that makes sense. What I don't like (and Bungie can easily fix) is that Bungie kind of went the opposite direction entirely. They purposely brought forward the bad perks, lowered AA across the board, and gun accuracy feels honestly not much better than Hand Cannons did without Initial Accuracy. The only guns that feel really crisp are Auto's, SMG's, and Sidearms (basically automatic weapons that don't need AA at all and you don't noticed a lack of Accuracy as badly). Precision based weapons like Hand Cannons, Scout Rifles, Sniper Rifles, and Pulses (to a degree) all feel like their Initial Shot Accuracy is bad again, and bullets don't always go exactly where fired. I've also noticed the same with Golden Gun and Throwing Knives, they just don't go exactly where pointed and GG seems to just miss when hitting a target center mass at times (more often an issue at Pulse Rifle ranges and beyond, but considering the bottom tree has a bonus for Precision Shots and in D1 you could cross map people with it, it should still be that accurate at those ranges). Sniper Rifles in PvP are pretty much not even worth using, as I'm missing shots I would even easily hit with Ice Breaker in D1 (one of the worst PvP Snipers with very little AA, only 30, whereas my But Not Forgotten had about 60, and these feel like they have about 10). I know they balanced some of this stuff to prevent Precision Weapons from being OP on PC, but they need to keep these setting for PC and tune up the Console AA and Initial Shot Accuracy across the board a bit so that these guns feel correct again. I'd also like it if we had an ability to purchase a set of Weapons from each Vendor each week, say 4 from each from their selection, in case RNG drops don't allow you to obtain that Gunsmith weapon you want. Additionally, I'd like to see just a lot more weapons in Destiny in general. If we are having Static Rolls, we need to be sitting on 300-400 different Legendary Weapons, rather than the 100-150 it seems like there is. Maybe if we get a lot more variety, more than 15 guns won't be Garbage Cans, because that's about the amount of solid Legendary Guns in Destiny right now. The other 135 are just Legendary Shards in the making. We also need to see a return of the Smart Loot system from the end of Destiny 1. If you already own an Exotic or a Legendary, it should lower you ability to once again obtain that same item, until you have obtained all of the other items. The last thing I'd like to see happen with this system though is a point to having obtained multiple versions of a Weapon if that does occur. Bungie already made a promise about this, and it looks like that reason is just a higher Power Level. I don't think that's a good enough answer. Let us infuse that same weapon into itself for Shards, going higher each time you infuse up to like 5 (5/10/15/20/25 Legendary Shards Cost) and grant like 2% extra PvE damage per Infusion for a total of 10% extra damage on a +5 weapon.

But those are just the things I'd like to see, and ways I think they could improve on this system. A system which I agree with you guys, is better for the game in the long run. I just miss how good both Weapons and Abilities were in Destiny 1.

Note: And for the love of all that is holy, please bring back Heavy Ammo Synth, or even just an Ammo Synth that fills all of your weapons to full. With the way the Ammo economy works, it feels like Juggler is on in every playlist 100% of the time. And not being able to do encounters because a player or players don't have ammo, like the Raid, is just beyond frustrating.

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#11 Edited by Nodima (2602 posts) -

I know you know this game inside and out so I won't say you're wrong, but I'm still enjoying scouts and hand cannons more than any other weapon type in the game. I have my fun with large magazine auto rifles and Actium War Rig from time to time but when I really need to buckle down and get things done it's still a high impact, low fire rate world for me. I do strongly agree that if every weapon is a hard roll on perks, I'd like to see a lot more designs and unique perks available. Given that we can adjust the elemental damage types (even if irregularly) it seems like a lack of imagination when two separate legendaries carry the same perks.

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#12 Posted by galerian (162 posts) -

@nodima: Yeah, i still enjoy using HC the most. But dear god it is really hard to do well with the flinch, bloom and reduced AA in the crucible against Autos in mid and MIDA in mid-long.

I miss my The Last Word too...

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#13 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@hestilllives19: I agree that they took things too far in the other direction, but I do not think some form of random rolls is healthy for the game, nor an elegant solution to this problem. The weapon modification system can be improved upon quite a bit. They could have way more interesting weapon mods than they currently have, they could add a second slot that fits different types of mods and lastly they could showcase the mods on the weapon itself to make them stand out. I would much prefer that over more weapon rolls.

@nodima You're not wrong at all. hestilllives is just into the depth of the weapon specs and looks at the numbers to draw conclusions. He will never agree with me that Auto Rifles are too good in Crucible because the numbers like time to kill don't reflect it. Meanwhile, any player that switched to an Auto Rifle has increased their efficiency. Numbers aren't everything. Hestilllives is right, but you are not wrong. I also like Hand Cannons the best. The play style just fits me better.

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#14 Posted by Bane (912 posts) -

I love that the random rolls are gone. The niggle in the back of my mind about how I didn't have the "god roll" version of something is gone, and it's glorious. Once I've acquired the weapon the hunt is over, and I can quit thinking about it.

If they wanted to offer further customization of the weapons they'd have to flesh out the mod system at this point, right? Introduce mod slots for barrels, sights, triggers, stocks, ammo, and whatever else? If you want more stability slot in a Smart Drift Control barrel, a Fitted Stock, and Perfectly Balanced ammo. More damage? A Field Choke, Oiled Frame, and High Caliber Rounds.

I'm not sure if that would just be a different type of god roll, but I don't think so. Players would customize their weapons for their own playstyle, or to fill gaps in the utility of the weapons they're carrying. That niggle might come back though, knowing in the back of my mind I didn't have the Counterbalanced barrel I wanted for my auto rifle.

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#15 Posted by Nodima (2602 posts) -

The only auto rifle I've had any success with in my limited Crucible play has been Sweet Business, and that's only because I take pre-firing around corners to an extreme. But that also meant I'd run out of ammo after just two or three encounters, lol.

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#16 Edited by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@zevvion: Me... into the nitty gritty of weapons and staring at Mercules904 spreadsheets... never, ha. Though I do agree with you that Auto's are extremely strong right now. And a lot of that has to do with both the increased Flinch and lack of Initial Shot Accuracy on Precision Weapons like Scouts and Hand Cannons, both of which are extremely strong when they hit players correctly. If you will, I'm going to get real gun nerdy and look at those Short Range Primaries since you mentioned them. So lets take a look at Hard Light (because in all honesty, they are a ton of great Autos and they all do just about the same thing), an Auto I've used quite a bit, and is a great representation of other weapons out there. It takes 12 bullets to kill in "optimal" situations, but requires 11/12 Crits for its 1.1 sec TTK. The thing is, absolutely nobody can hit 11/12 Crits with an Auto on a consistent basis. So with Auto's a big number is their body shot TTK. That takes 4 extra bullets and brings that TTK up to 1.5 sec. Auto's will generally kill somewhere between those numbers with a mix of Crits and body shots, so lets say it takes you 14 bullets which leaves you with an average TTK of 1.3 sec. So lets compare that to say Hand Cannons. If you don't know there are 3 varieties of HC's. HI, MI, and LI. HI has the highest ceiling in D2, meaning it can kill in 3 Crits in only 1.07 sec, but by comparisson it's Body Shot TTK is a whopping 2.13 sec (even though if you can't hit 2/4 Crits you shouldn't be using an HC, which comes in at 1.6 sec). This makes these extremely High Risk High Reward, so I personally won't touch them with a 10ft pole. IMO, the best two Hand Cannons for PvP to look out for are Better Devils (Kinetic) and Shattered Peace (Energy). Better Devils has a slower TTK of 1.3 sec (2/4 Crits), but boosts a higher range, better range falloff, and more flinch due to Explosive Payload. Shattered Peace on the other hand has slightly less range than BD, but boost a few key selling points like a faster TTK of 1.2 sec (2/4 Crits), higher AA by 9 (very noticeable), great recoil direction (the verticality of the kick between shots), and built in Lightweight (makes a great pairing with Mida to move super quick around the map, IMO better than using the Mini Tool for reasons I will discuss in a bit). Another key is to look at the other two close range primaries, Sidearms and SMG's. SMG's come in at around 0.9 TTK (600 RPM, I like Adjudicator Kinetic) and Sidearms at down to 0.73 (burst, I recommend Etana S14). The biggest problem with both of these types of guns though is range, and them having very little of it at all. Only extremely skilled players can currently make up the ground to effectively utilize sidearms, and a 1/10th of a second faster TTK isn't worth using an SMG over an Auto Rifle when you lose 15m of effective range. I think you can get away with using an SMG on smaller maps where a Pulse doesn't see damage dropoff at range, but Auto's excel when paired with a Scout. Along those same lines Autos tend to have better range than all Hand Cannons besides Better Devils. Auto Rifles, SMG's, Sidearms, and Pulses all suffer a big drawback compared to Scouts and Hand Cannons. I call it the game of peak-a-boo. Since HC's and Scouts do High Impact damage per shot, fire slowly and have to hit precision shots, they are frequently subject to dipping in and out of cover, fire a shot or two, dip to cover and then re-engage from another angle quickly to surprise an opponent. All other weapons leave the user exposed while sustaining fire. This gives both extreme tactical advantages if used properly. Hand Cannons also tend to have higher base In Air Accuracy than any other weapon. This allows them to be used from mid air which surprises many opponents.

All of this is to say I highly recommend Pulses and Auto's for anyone not extremely skilled and planning to miss more than 50% of their Crits. I also highly recommend Hand Cannons and Scouts for extremely skilled players than plan to never miss more than 50% of their Crits. If you are somewhere in between, like the vast majority of players, just use what you are comfortable with, knowing both the pros and cons of each. Both SMG's and Sidearms are extremely situational, and I wouldn't touch them unless you are in that extremely skilled category and really understand map engagement ranges. Just for reference I put Mercules904's TTK breakdowns below. They are a great resource to check out what guns are good, which ones are bad. If you want to get really detailed, take these numbers into consideration and look up the perks, AA, Range stats, Recoil Direction, and other stats on each individual weapon somewhere like Destiny Tracker.

Mercules904's Massive Breakdown of Weapons

Note: I didn't start out very good at PvP (I think I had around a 0.65 K/D in the first Trials, poor Dot RU carrying my rear) in Destiny. I had to work at it, and understand the weapons I was using was my first step. My second was learning from talented players around me, whether that was watching TrueVanguard or playing with @ll_exile_ll, @pyrodactyl, @veggiesbro, or @acidbrandon18.

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#17 Posted by ThePanzini (727 posts) -

I'm really happy with no random perks the guns not only sound better than ever but they feel more unique, disappointed with the mod implementation but glad Bungie choose this avenue with a bit of imagination and the ability to chop and change mods it could be a fun new thing to grind.

I've only had limited time in crucible but I don't like how far encounters generally are, there's very little reason to use a HC/sub over a pulse/scout and low ROF auto combo the drop off damage needs addressing and sidearms need a reason to exist.

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#18 Posted by Hestilllives19 (1252 posts) -

@thepanzini: To an extent I'm fine with Sidearms not existing right now. I'm still getting over the trauma of the Sidearm Meta from Destiny over the past 6-7 months or so before Destiny 2. They can all burn for all I care... (obviously a joke, but that Meta was so much Garbage, the worst in Destiny 1 history by far)

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#19 Posted by galerian (162 posts) -