'All Systems Goku' watitng room

@milkman: That's what I'm talking about. All that is right up Dan's alley I feel like.

I have to ask the question because I genuinely don't know: Is this song in the version of Kai that they're watching? I hope it is, but the whole plagiarism scandal really made a mess of things.

@xel: From having watched the Kai DVDs recently, that song is definitely on there.

I'm gonna answer the questions on this list which aren't addressed in either Z or Kai due to the fact that they were addressed in the original Dragon Ball and the show expects you to have watched that.

1. Yamcha is a desert bandit famous for being the buttmonkey of Dragon Ball. He has been Bulma's boyfriend since the end of the first arc of Dragon Ball and he trained under Master Roshi like Goku and Krillin did. He plays baseball to earn a living.

2. Most of the characters, including Goku, learned how to fly during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai tournament, which was about 5 years before the start of DBZ Kai.

3. The Earth presented in Dragon Ball is a fantasy land full of demi-humans and dinosaurs, but also technologically advanced cities and capsule technology. It's one of those things which makes the series stand out, but has less relevance as the show goes on. Actually, what constitutes a "human" in Dragon Ball has been the subject of some discussion during the Goku Black arc of Super.

4. Goku, Master Roshi and Krillin seem immune to bullets as they've taken a lot of shots from Bulma and Launch in Dragon Ball.

I watched Kai a couple years back and was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. I liked the show as a kid but didn't follow it religiously, so I'm not one to freak out over anything Kai might have skipped over. Unfortunately the Buu stuff is almost as long as the entirety of what came before it, and it definitely feels bloated compared to the rest.

I'm really surprised how positive Jeff and Dan came away from it in the first podcast (especially after the trainwreck that was Kingdom Heartache). Seeing the Ginyu Force stuff above just makes me super excited for the upcoming podcasts.

This is miraculously one of like three songs done by a different composer, so it's still there in all versions.

Someone more familiar with Kai than me should label the 3 episode chunks of the show and rate them of how much actually happens in each. I feel like they should watch more than 3 a week for dryer, more long winded parts of the show. If they spend a month on 12 episodes where not much happens I would expect them to drop the series and I don't want that to happen.

@pyrodactyl: Episode 9 is when Nappa and Vegeta start doing stuff on Earth and Vegeta is not ultimately defeated until eight or so episodes later, so they should be fine for a while if that is the concern.

So I'm going to answer your questions, but I warn you that this is going to be a VERY long explanation because Kai is a complicated beast to talk about. I apologize in advance.

Since Funimation used Kai as an opportunity to correct their mistakes with DBZ by staying truer to the original, the never produced a replacement score. They even kept the openings and endings, though they dubbed the songs into English for the Saiyan through Cell arcs (much like they did for YuYu Hakusho). The Boo arc was originally intended exclusively for the international market, so Toei produced the international opening and ending in English (well, Engrish, really) from the getgo, so Funimation just went with that. This means that the Japanese music will be the only music option on any release you buy.

However, there was a plagiarism scandal towards the end of Kai's initial Japanese run, in which composer Kenji Yamamoto was found guilty of ripping off compositions from high profile Hollywood films such as Avatar and Terminator: Salvation for his Dragon Ball Kai score. After this scandal, all future printings and TV broadcasts of Kai had the music replaced with compositions from Shunsuke Kikuchi's original DBZ score (which is the score you'd find on the orange brick sets). Most of the insert songs were unaffected since they weren't done by Yamamoto himself. The out of print Parts 1 through 4 will have the Yamamoto score due to being released before the scandal. Parts 5 through 8 and all of the Season Sets (which are the currently in-print releases) will have the Kikuchi score.

The Boo arc (a.k.a. The Final Chapters) comes with its own complications. Because this arc was produced some time after Kai's initial run, they were able to bring in Norihito Sumitomo (who did the music for Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and Super) to do the score. However, Toei eventually decided to air the Boo arc when Toriko ended since they needed something to fill its timeslot. When this happened, they decided to record a new opening and five new endings for the Japanese broadcast, replacing the Engrish songs I mentioned earlier. Japan tends to use anime as a vehicle to sell CDs among other merchandise, but the international opening and ending didn't have full 3 minute versions that they could sell. This is probably why they replaced the opening and ending with these new songs, and the most likely reason we didn't get them over here is because the international contracts and whatnot were probably already signed and the audio/video masters were probably already sent. The background music is mostly the same score composed by Norihito Sumitomo, but there are differences because the first 8 episodes of the Japanese broadcast were cut down from the first 15-ish of the international version. Also, the insert songs, Let it Burn and FLOW's version of Cha-La Head Cha-La, weren't in the international cut or some of the European dubs. I can't even begin to fathom why. As much as I love Kai, its production on the Japanese side is a messy, messy thing. Either way, you'll get the Japanese music if you buy The Final Chapters on DVD or Bluray, just with slightly different placements and a couple of extra insert songs in a handful of areas.

As for the voices, the English cast is mostly the same in Kai. However, some characters were recast since some of the original voices were either unavailable at the time, had retired from voice acting, or were deemed inappropriate for the roles. That or it was Chris Sabat wanting to give up some of his thirteen thousand roles, especially since they have such a large acting pool to choose from these days. The biggest changes from the original cast are Gohan (from Stephanie Nadolny to Colleen Clinkenbeard), Bulma (from Tiffany Vollmer to Monica Rial), Freeza (from Linda Young to Chris Ayres), Android 18 (from Meredith McCoy to Colleen Clinkenbeard), and most of the Ginyu Force. Vollmer retired from voice acting in order to become a film producer. Meredith McCoy was unavailable for Kai, but has been able to come back for Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Super. The Ginyu Force changes were mainly because Chris Sabat played most of them and probably wanted to have a more diverse cast, so he gave Jeice to Jason Liebrecht and Burter to Vic Mignonga. As for Captain Ginyu, Brice Armstrong had been long since retired, so R. Bruce Elliot took over. I don't know why they recast Guldo, though, since Bill Townsley still plays Cui in Kai. Maybe they just thought Greg Ayres was a better fit (which I agree with). Nobody knows for sure why Gohan was recast, though there are rumors that it was because Nadolny and Chris Sabat had creative differences. I don't think there's much evidence either way, though. At any rate, Clinkenbeard has taken over as both Kid Goku and Kid Gohan in all current and future dubs of DB material, and I personally like her takes better. Your mileage may vary, though.

Freeza's recasting has a slightly more detailed explanation behind it. They had every intention of bringing her back initially, but Chris Sabat said that when they brought her in she was unable to keep up with the new scripts. Since they wanted to stay truer to the Japanese version with Kai, Freeza's dialogue was written in a flowery, upper-class style that better reflects Freeza's character as written by Toriyama and as portrayed by Ryusei Nakao. Because Young couldn't keep up with the new writing style for Freeza, they decided to bring in the Shakespearean-trained Chris Ayres. He gives Freeza a sort of condescending edge that perfectly compliments Freeza if you ask me. Young is still in Kai, though, reprising her roles as Fortuneteller Baba and Piza (Mr. Satan's lady assistant during the Cell Games). In my opinion, this recast was necessary. While I do like Young as an actress, I don't think Freeza was the right role for her - that miscast stemmed from a fundamental misunderstanding of the character by the powers that be of that era. At any rate, Ayres continued to play Freeza through most of the Resurrection 'F' retelling in Super, when his COPD got so bad that he was hospitalized. Daman Mills has been filling in for Ayres during his sickness, and does a pretty spot-on impression of Ayres' take.

I know this went on for WAY too long, but I hope this helps to answer some of your questions about Kai!

Yoooo, the frieza saga is still insanely long and boring. It did not age well. I sense a big falling off when it gets to goku going ssj and thats like 40 episodes deep

I was surprised that even with how much filler is cut out, Goku and Frieza's fight is still like 10 episodes long on its own. I wonder if it's easier to stomach if its your first time seeing it though.

I agree. Even with all of Kai's trimming and editing, Goku is in the recovery tank for what seems like forever and then his fight with Frieza is still drawn out to about a dozen episodes. It's going to be tough for Dan and Jeff to get through that stretch. Things do pick up again once you're past that and the androids start showing up, but a lot of people won't tough it out to get there.

@chaser324: i wonder if they'll just have an episode where they talk about that whole interaction instead of the 3 episode thing theyre doing now. Basically a 15 episode encompassing podcast.

I thought I was going crazy and maybe they didn't edit that much out of the Frieza saga from what I remembered. Was it really just even THAT much longer? Because I found those latter episodes to be dull and drawn out even in Kai.

They were so excited about it, and I had only read the manga and seen the Dragonball Abridged series, so I decided to tag along for the ride and watched until episode 12 or something.

It's a pretty good adaptation. Some things can't be saved in editing: Gohan just suddenly wears Piccolo's clothing for no apparent reason, and filler bug Gregory has to be there because he's in scenes later. But I like the way the series looks, it's all this hand drawn, hand animated wonderful stuff from before cheap gradients and bad 3D models. The artstyle itself is really good. From this point on, Toriyama only draws people more and more angular and unappealing, but right now it's got that bouncy softness I loved in the original Dragonball. The English voices are alright. I normally go with Japanese, but the lady who voices Goku in particular is an earsore.

I'm prooobably not gonna watch the Namek saga with them, though. To each their own, I'm sure some people adore it, but to me that's the worst that Dragonball ever got in the manga. I can't imagine watching that boring-ass arc with added padding and just the naturally longer time it takes to watch something than read something.

It's true, even Kai couldn't speed up that last 5 minutes until Namek explodes. That'll be the first endurance test for Jeff and Dan I'm sure.

The good news is that after you get through the Freiza saga, things get a lot better and move a lot faster. I'm guessing Dan will be way into the Future Trunks/Android saga for obvious reasons.

@milkman: Yeah, I'm almost done with the Cell Saga and it's worlds better than the Frieza stuff. It's just a shame because I think the Ginyu stuff is going to be right in their wheelhouse.

Is there any guide as to what original episodes make up Kai episodes? I have access to original DBZ and am happy to follow along with that but don't know where to stop to stay in pace with the podcast.

At one point Recoome powerbombs Vegeta, so yes Dan will like the Frieza saga.

In terms of pacing i agree the Namek stuff is much worse than the Cell stuff but the Cell stuff is filled with some of the worst storytelling ever to grace Dragon Ball as a whole. Seriously so many characters do the most nonsensical things during Android/Cell and even Buu to a certain extent.

@hayt: I don't think it's that simple, they didn't just cut some episodes, they re-edited a lot of stuff.

Hyped for this series, alongside all this good Dragon Ball media lately it's made me want to start the original Dragon Ball over again.

So I've been watching DBZ Kai and I just finished episode 41 - the one where Vegeta thinks he can take on Frieza and then gets his ass kicked.

It really does seem like they cut and edited as much as they could, but the original was done in such a way that the Frieza saga just wasn't going to work without being ridiculously long. Even Dragonball Z Abridged had to drag it out a bit just to make sure all of the parts fit together well enough. It feels like I've only got three or four more episodes to go but this stuff goes on until a little into Season 3 (or what they're calling "season 3", it feels less like a season and more like a block of 26 episodes).

That said, the first half of the Frieza saga might be the best Dragonball Z around. Goku's not around to be a complete Mary Sue, so what we're left with is hopelessly-outclassed Krillin and Gohan trying to figure out how they outmaneuver Frieza's goons and Vegeta trying to covertly steal all of the dragonballs. A lot of stuff keeps happening and, yeah, some things are dumb (suddenly Vegeta can sense power levels?) but it moves at a great pace and it's a lot of fun to watch how all of that stuff pans out. Then the Ginyu force stuff tops that all off with humor, ridiculousness, and dumb shonen violence in spectacular fashion. Then things build back up for the Frieza fight and that's all done well, and the actual Frieza fight for the first bit is fine - everyone's struggling to do something against the guy and trying to stay alive while he toys with them. And now I'm starting to see how this thing might drag on for way too long - Krillin still has to die, Gohan, Piccolo, and Bulma still have to get off the planet, and Goku still needs to turn Super Saiyan, kill Frieza, and escape the planet as it explodes. That takes a dozen episodes, apparently.

It took far too long for Vegeta to finally crawl into his spaceship as well. This show has a penchant for dragging out the final fight for a few episodes longer than it should.

@hayt: Kai's episode list on Wikipedia sums up each episode, so you could always watch based on that.

I’m looking all over for an English subbed version of Kai, but I’ve only found one sketchy ass stream that’s stalling all the time.... there’s no legit subbed version? Really?

@l33t_haxor: The Blu-ray versions has English sub, which is what I'm watching. I don't know if it's available to stream though.

@l33t_haxor: The only legit stream of it is on Amazon for $2.99 an episode ($1.99 SD), or as a season for $31.99. And it says it has subtitles and lists the Japanese voice actors in the credits, but I don't know if that information is accurate.

BOY! I just got to the Great Saiyaman stuff and man, I hope they make it this long because it's right up their alley. I can't tell if the writing is great or bad or great and bad or what but I love it.

I watched 7-11 last night. It's so bizarre how it's so obviously cut up. You can literally see where the "next episode" stingers would have been either 1/4 or 1/2 through what is now an episode.

I briefly checked through episodes 7-11 and 11-16 of Kai to refresh my memory. The guys have chosen a great pace with 5 episodes for each session, and they'll have some nail-biting cliffhangers to endure too.

I'm currently at episode 38 and I just want the Namek saga to end already. It has honestly been kind of a slog to get through. Even with a lot of shit cut out, there was way too much hide & seek and little actual progress happening. I can't count how many times a scene consisted of "Oh shit, I feel a strong Ki coming from this direction, heading towards us! We better hide!", repeat ad nauseam.

Actually what I'm looking forward to is getting to the Cell saga because that's what I remember most from watching as a kid, also Cell is a pretty cool villain.

You've got some ways to go!

I just finished the Namek Saga, it ends at about Episode 54 - that's "ends" as in "all the loose ends are tied up and everyone is allowed to relax and enjoy their hard-earned victory". Honestly, I enjoyed it. I can see how someone might think that it drags, but to me it came across as suitably epic and awesome and crazy and stuff. I wouldn't have complained if a few episodes had been cut out, but I enjoyed it as it is.

I strongly recommend not bingeing it, though. Watch two or three episodes a night at most. Trying to watch all of that at once is a good way to get real tired of it, real quick.

All right, now, I'm actually bumping this thread to ask something that I didn't think was worth making a new thread for. Why is it that Gohan constantly seems shat on as a character? I'm watching the Android saga now. Gohan was one of like three people who was able to go up against one of Frieza's forms, if only for a brief while. As far as I can tell, he's third in power at this point, beaten only by Piccolo and Vegeta. And yet he gets told to take Bulma and baby Trunks home while Krillin hangs around. The only thing Krillin has Gohan beat in at this point is experience, but Gohan seems to have surpassed him in every other way (including common fucking sense but that's in short supply among Dragonball's primary characters). Tien hangs around, too, but at least Tien might look intimidating to someone who can't tell the difference between Tien and Vegeta.

I have seen this stuff before so I know that, eventually, Gohan gets his day in the limelight, but I think it's weird that someone who spent three years training with Piccolo and Goku at the same time gets told to go home, things are now too dangerous for him.

@justin258: I don't think there is a correct answer to this. I just chalk it up to Gohan still being a kid at this point and maybe the older characters "parental instincts" are kicking in and they want to make sure the child is safe (even if he can hold his own better than others).

I have a totally different question. So in Dragon Ball Super, Vegeta is able to transform into Super Saiyan Blue (SSGSS). This is stronger than any other Super Saiyan forms. By that logic then, shouldn't Vegeta be able to turn Super Saiyan 3? If he can power up to Super Saiyan Blue, why couldn't he scale back his power and be Super Saiyan 3?

@holycrapitsadam: He could probably, but there's really no reason to do so. As an alternative explanation, the technique for Super Saiyan Blue is slightly different from my understanding of how they explain it. It's all about maintaining your energy within your body and not releasing it. The same way the deities control their power. Vegeta masters this technique and not the technique of powering up into Super Saiyan 3 (which seems like the old standard of just pumping as much energy out as possible to reach another level). Although having his body experience the power of Super Saiyan Blue is probably enough to make himself technically capable of going Super Saiyan 3 (like how getting the god power allowed Goku's body to handle greater power after that). There's just no real reason for him to bother trying it. He surpassed it like a kid skipping a grade in school would. No reason to go back and take the grade that you skipped.

@mezza: totally. It would just be fun to see since it’s never happened before. I’ve never been a huge fan of SSJ3 and the whole no eyebrows thing, would just be curious to see what he looks like. Guess that’s what fan art is for lol

I just now realized that "watiting" is spelled incorrectly in this thread title.

We watit, we don't waitit.

This podcast has made Dragon Ball Z the first anime I've watched. I planned on following along with the crew, but have ended up halfway through cell Saga in the original cut of Z. I've also started to delve into the original Dragon Ball, which has some fun parts.

While I've gotten pretty deep in, I'm extremely turned off by how horny and sexist this show is. It has made me nearly stop a few times. Everything with Maron, and the characterization of Bulma is disgusting. The beginning of Dragon Ball is even worse; some of it is funny, with Goku being a stranger in a strange land, but Master Roshi is a fucking problem.

Man, I know the names are absurd, but for some reason I laughed out loud when I learned that the son of Bibidi was Babidi.

@ottoman673: MAN OP NEEDS TO FIX THAT STAT!!!!

@fngbomber: FIX YOUR TYPO!

Is it just me, or does Android 18's English voice in Kai sound like it doesn't match the character at all? Maybe it's because the other most recent reference point I have is Abridged, but I figured 18 would sound a little louder, a little rougher, and a little hammier. Instead, here, it sounds like her voice actress is a mouse.

Horny and sexist as far as original Dragonball goes, or DBZ? I've been watching DBZ Kai and it almost completely drops all of that stuff. Master Roshi is still a perv, but he spends all of his time reading dirty magazines instead of harassing people. Dragonball Z doesn't really have much of that stuff, if only because it's way more concerned with dudes fighting each other and Akira Toriyama never saw fit to put any female fighters into the show (save 18 and she beats up Vegeta and then never does anything else).

Also, while this whole fervor for Dragonball Z has done a really good job of making me remember why I liked this show in the first place, I want to note that this is just one genre of anime - if DBZ isn't doing anything for you, try something else, there's way more stuff out there. You've probably heard something similar from anime fans before, but I still wanted to point it out.

Actually the reason Vegeta can't go super saiyan 3 is because it's too much energy for a single mortal to do. Goku stated at some point that he could only do it because he was dead as it drained his life force (or something along those lines). Gotenks can go SS3 because they joined together. Why goku can still do it i'm not sure but it might be because he already did the training, or they completely retconned that.

I've been rewatching the original Dragon Ball too. I've always been interested in it to flesh out the backstories of all the characters of DBZ. I'm guessing I watched about 50 episodes years ago, as a kid, but I don't remember it being so gross. On my current re-watch I was initially fascinated by the sexism, how Japanese representation of women and perverts at the time clash so hard with modern western values. But it's really starting to ware on me at this point. I thought Launch might have been a new cool new badass lady character, but then she turned into a super regressive stereotype representing how little the writers think of the emotions of women.

As for DBZ, I'm watching enough to keep up with the podcast. I remember these early episodes well, I'm enjoying them, but how far I go may depend on how far Dan and Jeff can make it. Years ago I think I only made it as far as the Kid Buu saga before I grew tired of the formula and pace. There's always been a small part of me that wanted to finish it, but I'd also like to relive the moments I enjoyed on my original rewatch. The peace time episodes and goofy humor was what I remember most fondly.

As someone watching for the first time, I almost tapped out the third time Frieza revealed he was only using a fraction of his TRUE power. Just... so long and samey the whole way through...

@mechamarshmallow: Well go to the store, buy a hat, and hold the fuck on to it.

Just wait until the Buu saga. There's plenty of pervy Master Roshi in the Kai cut, and of course, a main plot point is still that Elder Kai helps save the universe because Goku offers to let him grab Bulma.

@chaser324: Yeah, the Elder Kai stuff is particularly bad. At least Gohan kind of tries to be the voice of reason but I was cringing through most of that stuff.

I love that the writers felt the need to come up with a quasi-scientific explanation for why Saiyans transform into giant rage baboons when they see a full moon. "17 million zenos!!"