Where do we draw the lines for what qualifies as a MOBA?

So, with MOBA now being a genre rather than a concept, I started wondering where we'd draw the line for what pre-DOTA things qualify as games within that genre.

I'd say that stuff like the Herzog series and the original Z seem closer to the MOBA genre than RTS, even though Herzog and Herzog Zwei are only two player splitscreen, rather than online capable (which is arguably part of the genre description). But they feature hero units and automated construction and deployment of creep like units, and have pre-existing structures on the map for you to capture or destroy, rather than having base building.

Two games that do have online multiplayer and also share several mechanics with DOTA are Future Cop L.A.P.D.'s Precinct Assault multiplayer mode, and Command & Conquer Sole Survivor. Future Cop, like Herzog and Z is two player only, but is even closer to DOTA in structure, with barracks producing creeps (which you can upgrade over time), and the goal is to take down the enemy turrets, barracks and finally their HQ.

C&C Sole Survivor does things differently, but has another familiar aspect of the MOBA's - while it does not have a tower defense style mode - rather opting for straight up deathmatch with up to 32 players online (with NPC towers scattered around the maps, but which are aggressive towards all players), you can freely choose your "hero" from a selection of just about every single unit from the original C&C, whether it's a lone soldier with a rocket launcher or the iconic mammoth tank, and you upgrade your hero over time with random pickups on the map and by killing enemy heroes, somewhat similar to how they made every single NPC from WarCraft III into heroes in DOTA.

Since I know these are all edge casey, I haven't added the MOBA genre to them myself, but would like to hear if any of you who may be more into the genre think any of these could quality?

I'd submit that there are too many lines being drawn altogether.

I think the Dead Island MOBA is as far as you can get from the preestablished Dota archetype before you have to describe it in more depth.

I don't think they qualify as being within the MOBA genre, it's just that they have certain elements that are similar. Just as games before a genre is formed have elements that lead up to that creation but don't have everything together that defines it.

From my experience if it's a terribly dull game, it's probably a MOBA.

-_-

Does it matter how you define a game. It is what it is.

Gone Home is a MOBA.

I can certainly see where you're coming from with those examples. In the case of Future Cop, it's only one mode and the bulk of the gameplay is different. Herzog Zwei is a bit closer.

I have a potential answer in the form of a question. The acronym stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, but is that just a collection of words used to name the genre akin to music genre names being fairly nonsense or does something like no online preclude a game from being a MOBA?

I think the real answer is just that everyone stops playing MOBAs and instead we, as a species, all come together in celebration of Future Cop: LAPD.

Aeon of Strife (predecessor to DotA for Starcraft 1) was a rip-off homage to that Future Cop mode. Fun fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena

Or did they say that in the video, didn't watch it ;)

That is our obligation to ourselves and to peace.

You're a MOBA.

You've gone too far..

INTERNET MISOGYNIST @humanity Is attempting to silence voices with a massive campaign to bring down Gone Home with unfair and inherently problematic labels!

Not far enough...?

(I'm starting to run out of ideas 0_o)

@brodehouse: Don't forget "known bigot and women's rights oppressor" - the game is about a female protagonist coming to grips with her identity after all.

Gone Home is very clearly about keeping the bottom lane fucking clear l2p nub.

At that age it's not easy to decide if you wanna get into jungling or not.

Did somebody say Jungler?

All I know is that Witcher universe 'moba' is as far away from a moba whilst still being an arpg as possible.

I find it strange that Command & Conquer: Sole Survivor was referenced and not Renegade. Do we dub the game as FPS/MOBA when the multiplayer portion of the game was MOBA only?

I think we really need to quit investing so much in fucking obscure ass genres. The idea of a genre is to help convey the basic structure of something for somebody unfamiliar with it. And nobody outside an increasingly small niche actually knows - or gives a shit - what a MOBA or rogue-like-like-like-fucking-like is. I consider myself pretty in-tune with this industry, and I don't even know what the fuck MOBA stands for.

I think a MOBA is defined by lanes, creeps of some kind (creeps being a unit the players do not control and consistently spawn to move down a lane towards the goal), playing a singular hero on a team (as opposed to an RTS where it's controlling all the units and sometimes buildings), and the end goal being to destroy a base "heart" (whether that be an ancient or something else, the concept is generally the same).

Other factors such as towers, control points, items bought in a store, and others aren't necessary parts of the equation.

@hatking: Multiplayer online battle arena is what MOBA stands for. It's a terrible term for a genre, but it's what the public has most certainly coined so we can really only use it when identifying for wiki purposes at this point. Contesting it further (anymore) is really a lost cause considering the size of it's audience even now.

@fisk0: If it's just one mode in a game, then no, you should not put it as a moba.

@cornbredx: Yeah but stuff like Bloodline Champions is still a MOBA, it doesn't have creeps/bases/items to buy. It's just heroes (or bloodlines) fighting in an arena. It's a multiplayer online battle arena.

We're looking for games that are most definitely modern examples of "MOBAs" for that genre association, not older games that loosely fit the bill with some of their mechanics.

@cornbredx: By the way, MOBA was actually a term that was coined and pushed by Riot Games and wasn't a term that was organically originated from the community IIRC.

@gaspower: I remember it from well before Riot Games formed, but my memory is spotty so I'll have to take your word for it haha

The MP portion of Renegade didn't seem feel like a MOBA to me since if I remember correctly, it felt like it was more akin to an objective based MP mode like Rush from BFBC2 or Search and Destroy, the only similarity being that you just had to destroy the enemy base as one of the winning conditions. The mechanics pretty much remained the same. You didn't control a single "hero" character that had specialized skill sets that was different than the ones you're teammates also had and what the enemy players also had, and you can end the game similar to how you end a Conquest match in BF wherein if you had more "points/tickets" remaining than your opponent at the end of a match (though in this case you're accumulating points rather than making the other enemies points go down as is the case with Conquest). In games like Leagues and Dota, being able to skillfully control your character and knowing which skills to use at specifics points, etc. is a very important part of the game (e.g. timing your hits, being able to tell where a skill would be cast in order to avoid it, etc.) and despite having advanced classes in the Renegade MP that you can upgrade to, its just feels vastly different to those games and to me it just feels a lot more similar to Battlefield or if we wanted something closer, it would be Unreal Tournament Onslaught mode, the only difference again would be the upgradable, advanced classes. I can only speak about Renegade though since I haven't played Sole Survivor.

Hahaha! Yeah no problem, sir. Don't worry, I'm sure I'm right about the fact that Riot did start using the term first. :D

This site has a page devoted to games that have ketchup in them. I think we can handle a genre page for what has somehow become one of the most played genres in all of gaming, even if you (or I) don't give a shit about said games.