Have Skills been removed from Fallout?

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bhlaab

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I noticed a lack of "RPG"-ness going on in the Fallout 4 footage. Then I took another look at the Pipboy stuff.

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It says STATUS/SPECIAL/PERKS. No mention of skills.

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Flipping through the SPECIAL bit, Intelligence makes no mention of Skill Points. The description for Agility seems to indicate that the Sneak skill has been folded into it. I don't have a picture, since it would be redundant, but Charisma suggests that persuasion and barter skills are folded into it.

My guess is that, in an effort to make the shooting feel better they ridded themselves of skills tied to it, and then threw the rest out as well. What do you guys think, can there be a Fallout game with no skill checks? Is it still an RPG, or is it something more akin to a FarCry game now? Can the SPECIAL stats carry it all on its own?

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Zeik

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#2  Edited By Zeik

I'm guessing there is more to it that we don't know. There has to be more to leveling than just getting a perk every level or two.

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bhlaab

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#3  Edited By bhlaab

@zeik said:

I'm guessing there is more to it that we don't know. There has to be more to leveling than just getting a perk every level or two.

It seems apparent that it does not.

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Dregdon

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Are skills really neccesary though? We still have perks and those are what really change the game. Do we need oblivion/morrowind style shooting where I aim with my scope at someones head and fire but then the game decides that I missed anyway? Are skills just something they have to put in just because they have always been there? Things like sneak and repair could easily be boiled directly into your normal stats or just straight into perks imo.

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BeachThunder

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Maybe. Let's not be crazy though, most of the skills were pretty poorly implemented in Fallout 3. It wasn't especially hard to max out all of your skills, making the whole concept of skills fairly meaningless.

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Steadying

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I was so excited over the fact that the attributes were still in that I didn't even notice skills were gone...

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Evilsbane

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Honestly I'd just rather the shooting feel good, Fallout 3 plays like ass so having it feel like a good shooter is much higher on my list than "make the numbers better".

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FriendlyPhoenix

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If removing skills means they can make the shooting not feel like shit, then that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

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ViciousReiven

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Screw skills, it took forever to actually make you good enough at any one particular thing, if you weren't min-maxing you'd never even feel the difference in levels, put it all into SPECIAL and perks, those were the real game changers anyway.

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bhlaab

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Crafting footage indicates that the Science skill has been turned into a series of ranked perks.

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bceagles128

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#11  Edited By bceagles128

@bhlaab said:
@zeik said:

I'm guessing there is more to it that we don't know. There has to be more to leveling than just getting a perk every level or two.

It seems apparent that it does not.

Apparent based on what? The whopping 20 seconds of canned video coverage you saw?

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cornbredx

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I honestly don't mind either way. I'm kind of with other people here, on this. If the shooting feels better I can get behind them removing skill checks. That doesn't bother me.

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Steadying

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@bhlaab: Wow, guess that confirms it then. Hmm, interested to see how this plays out.

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Crembaw

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@bhlaab said:
@zeik said:

I'm guessing there is more to it that we don't know. There has to be more to leveling than just getting a perk every level or two.

It seems apparent that it does not.

It's a brief glance at a work-in-progress interface. I'm all for the discussion of whether Fallout strictly needs skills, but there's no reason to be doom-n-gloom until the question gets inevitably asked in an interview and we get an answer either way.

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Tennmuerti

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After all Bethesda is the master of dumbing down their rpgs with every game they make.

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Steadying

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@tennmuerti: to be fair this at least looks better than skyrim in that regard

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Zeik

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@bhlaab: I saw nothing to suggest that is "apparent". Skills themselves might very well be gone, but we didn't see nearly enough to know that they were not replaced by something else.

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Teddie

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Who puts 10 points into luck anywa- oh god the speech/lockpick stuff will all be luck based percentages won't it. The save-scumming must endure.

Seriously though I guess I can see it all working without skill points, if the stuff that required skill points to begin with is (in the case of shooting) gone, or (in the case of speech etc) rolled into the "Special" skills, or just relegated to perk status. Attaching your shooting accuracy/damage to like 4 different skills was always a terrible idea so I really hope that's gone.

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Crembaw

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#19  Edited By Crembaw
@zeik said:

@bhlaab: I saw nothing to suggest that is "apparent". Skills themselves might very well be gone, but we didn't see nearly enough to know that they were not replaced by something else.

It's entirely possible that Perks have enveloped skills, and that leveling them up to a certain point is what allows for the crazy added effects that we've come to expect from perks. But the simple fact is, at this point, we don't know.

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bhlaab

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Maybe. Let's not be crazy though, most of the skills were pretty poorly implemented in Fallout 3. It wasn't especially hard to max out all of your skills, making the whole concept of skills fairly meaningless.

New Vegas, on the other hand, showed how when well-implemented skill checks are the backbone of the Fallout franchise. Not to mention, aren't these games meant to be RPGs first and foremost? The big promise on Fallout 3 was "don't worry fans, we're not going to turn Fallout into an FPS" but it seems that they're doing exactly that now.

That said, as Jeff pointed out during the stream they've already lost the Fallout 1 and 2 fans and replaced them with about a billion new fans who would likely be happy with these changes.

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Zeik

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#21  Edited By Zeik

@friendlyphoenix: The skill points had basically nothing to do with why the gunplay was poor. The gunplay was bad because it was poorly designed. Skill points just increased your damage with a specific gun type and let you unlock relevant perks.

I just have a hard time seeing how they could maintain a good sense of character progression purely through perks. Are they going to expect us to spend perks on upgrading my lockpicking and computer hacking now? Or is that determined entirely by SPECIAL stats now that are more or less static, meaning you're ability to do that stuff is determined at the start?

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bhlaab

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@zeik said:

@friendlyphoenix: The skill points had basically nothing to do with why the gunplay was poor. The gunplay was bad because it was poorly designed. Skill points just increased your damage with a specific gun type and let you unlock relevant perks.

I just have a hard time seeing how they could maintain a good sense of character progression purely through perks. Are they going to expect us to spend perks on upgrading my lockpicking and computer hacking now? Or is that determined entirely by SPECIAL stats now that are more or less static, meaning you're ability to do that stuff is determined at the start?

Well the heavy lifting for lockpicking and hacking will almost certainly be minigames, probably with perks to make them easier or to access harder locks. SPECIAL stats might decide a starting point, meaning you can pop Mentats to get a slight edge.

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GERALTITUDE

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Maybe they combo'd Special and Skill? Seems natural.

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AdequatelyPrepared

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Maybe. Let's not be crazy though, most of the skills were pretty poorly implemented in Fallout 3. It wasn't especially hard to max out all of your skills, making the whole concept of skills fairly meaningless.

This is true. A series of ranked perks may actually be a good idea, especially if they have tighter control on it so that the end-game character is not god-like at everything. May actually make Fallout 4 more of a Role-Playing Game than 3 ever was.

Now you might actually have to pick between becoming better at speech, shooting guns, or crafting.

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canucks23

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@teddie said:

Who puts 10 points into luck anywa- oh god the speech/lockpick stuff will all be luck based percentages won't it. The save-scumming must endure.

Seriously though I guess I can see it all working without skill points, if the stuff that required skill points to begin with is (in the case of shooting) gone, or (in the case of speech etc) rolled into the "Special" skills, or just relegated to perk status. Attaching your shooting accuracy/damage to like 4 different skills was always a terrible idea so I really hope that's gone.

I'd bet stuff like lock-picking/speech would just be relegated into tiered perks like Science seems to be, with like 5 or so ranks that each cost a perk point, instead of 100 skill points to max out.

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ripk

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I'm assuming you still do the regular fallout 1-100 system, but they're just giving a new look to the whole "lockpick skill 50 required" and just saying that 25 skill= lockpick 1 50 skill = lockpick 2, etc etc.

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Sterling

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#27  Edited By Sterling

How awesome would it be if the shooting was like Destiny.

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ShadyPingu

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I didn't notice that... Well, whatever. As long as the game allows for a high degree of self-expression through its systems, I don't really care how it manifests.

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Hayt

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#29  Edited By Hayt

What a fucking bummer. I was concerned something like this might be the case but I'd hoped not. Bethesda gets that lowest common denominator money now so it makes sense for them to make the game as accessible as possible. I'm used to imposing rules on myself (in Skyrim I would have specced axes if the skill was in the game so I just limited myself to using axes) but it's disappointing after New Vegas showed how you can make skills an interesting part of your character by having them function in situations that aren't just combat.

Edit: At the risk of being rude to all the people saying "well so long as the shooting is good" you do realise Fallout is/was an RPG that happened to involve shooting right? I want better shooting but not at the cost of everything else

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amafi

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@dregdon said:

Are skills really neccesary though? We still have perks and those are what really change the game. Do we need oblivion/morrowind style shooting where I aim with my scope at someones head and fire but then the game decides that I missed anyway? Are skills just something they have to put in just because they have always been there? Things like sneak and repair could easily be boiled directly into your normal stats or just straight into perks imo.

Depends on what you want, I guess. Skills were the basis for most of the interesting non-combat stuff. Perks, at least the way they've worked in the past, would not fit very well into that role. I guess we'll see what new and innovative ways they've found to make fallout less fallout and more postapocalyptic the elder scrolls leading up to launch.

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teaoverlord

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This isn't a real RPG anymore because it has the wrong numbers. Bring back the old numbers!

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Hayt

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@teaoverlord: You'll be hard pressed to find any numbers. If you want every game to be a shooter with a perks system (like every shooter now) I can see why this doesn't bother you but for someone that actually likes the RPG genre to be like an RPG then yeah, I'm particular about there being numbers.

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Arabes

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@bhlaab: Except Jeff was wrong. I love Fallout 1 & 2 and thought 3 was pretty good. New Vegas was where it was at for me though. And a lot of that was the integration of the skills into the conversation options. If this is becoming Mass Effect I am going to be really bummed. THere are a million shooters out there with perks. Not everything needs to be that. Give me some variety.

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ll_Exile_ll

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Hey, let's jump straight to doom and gloom conclusions after speculating about a few frames of pre-release video! Who cares if everything they showed of the game looked incredible and they're clearly introducing tons of deep new gameplay mechanics and elements of player freedom, they may have changed the level up system. Fuck Fallout 4.

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amafi

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Hey, let's jump straight to doom and gloom conclusions after speculating about a few frames of pre-release video! Who cares if everything they showed of the game looked incredible and they're clearly introducing tons of deep new gameplay mechanics and elements of player freedom, they may have changed the level up system. Fuck Fallout 4.

I'm sure it will be a fine game once the community gets rid of the crippling bugs. But it's not fallout. Bethesda has made it clear they never got fallout. The more they make the world into retrofuture TES and the more they make the gameplay into a mediocre shooter the less interesting it's gonna be. And they need to cast a wider net to make enough money to fund their next hostile takeover of some poor unsuspecting developer, I get it. Doesn't mean I can't wish they'd make something more interesting than 3 and not more streamlined and shootery though. I mean, the way they're going they could just have thrown special stats and some mass effect dialog wheels into rage and it would have the same relation to the good fallout games.

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JesusHammer

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@ll_exile_ll: Well I hated Skyrim for being super dumbed down and barely an RPG. Odds all if you take one of my favourite RPG series and make it into even simpler Skyrim I'll probably not be happy about it. Also what looked that great? The animation looked bad, the base building is totally optional and probably serves no purpose, Bethesda hasn't made a good story since Morrowind, and to boot it might not have anything that it's predecessors had? The crafting system looked cool and everything else looked like a Fallout. I don't see what was so amazing about what they showed and if they've somehow dumbed this down more than FO3 and made Skyrim 2.0 I have no interest at all personally.

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Corvak

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Skills have been falling to the wayside in Bethesda games.

From what I saw, most of the skills are rolled into SPECIAL - as seen in the picture, it seems Sneak ability is tied to Agility, and so on.

If they just give you more perk choices per level and convert skills into ranked perks then it really hasn't changed much.

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cthomer5000

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@bhlaab said:
@zeik said:

I'm guessing there is more to it that we don't know. There has to be more to leveling than just getting a perk every level or two.

It seems apparent that it does not.

If you're so sure - why did you make the title of your thread a question?

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Musubi

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@bhlaab said:
@zeik said:

I'm guessing there is more to it that we don't know. There has to be more to leveling than just getting a perk every level or two.

It seems apparent that it does not.

Who knows it might be at a point in the game where skills aren't unlocked yet for you.

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Bollard

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What bothered me more was the character not moving his fingers at all when moving up and down inside a sub menu on the pip-boy.

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BeachThunder

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@bollard said:

What bothered me more was the character not moving his fingers at all when moving up and down inside a sub menu on the pip-boy.

You get finger movement when you rank up in Agility.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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Why would not having skill make it not an RPG? That doesn't even make sense.

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cmblasko

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Consolidating perks and skills seems fine. I'm happy as long as I can build my character and specialize him/her the way I want.

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teaoverlord

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#44  Edited By teaoverlord

@hayt: SPECIAL is numbers. They just consolidated the numbers.

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ll_Exile_ll

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#45  Edited By ll_Exile_ll

@jesushammer said:

@ll_exile_ll: Well I hated Skyrim for being super dumbed down and barely an RPG. Odds all if you take one of my favourite RPG series and make it into even simpler Skyrim I'll probably not be happy about it. Also what looked that great? The animation looked bad, the base building is totally optional and probably serves no purpose, Bethesda hasn't made a good story since Morrowind, and to boot it might not have anything that it's predecessors had? The crafting system looked cool and everything else looked like a Fallout. I don't see what was so amazing about what they showed and if they've somehow dumbed this down more than FO3 and made Skyrim 2.0 I have no interest at all personally.

I'm sorry, unlike the GB staff (and apparently a majority of the people on these forums) I don't default to cynicism and negativity for everything. I thought the crafting looked amazing, the base building is a new and cool looking feature that I wasn't expecting, and the combat looked good, but what the fuck do I know, I actually like most games I play.

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teaoverlord

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amafi

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@jesushammer said:

@ll_exile_ll: Well I hated Skyrim for being super dumbed down and barely an RPG. Odds all if you take one of my favourite RPG series and make it into even simpler Skyrim I'll probably not be happy about it. Also what looked that great? The animation looked bad, the base building is totally optional and probably serves no purpose, Bethesda hasn't made a good story since Morrowind, and to boot it might not have anything that it's predecessors had? The crafting system looked cool and everything else looked like a Fallout. I don't see what was so amazing about what they showed and if they've somehow dumbed this down more than FO3 and made Skyrim 2.0 I have no interest at all personally.

I'm sorry, unlike the GB staff (and apparently a majority of the people on these forums) I don't default to cynicism and negativity for everything. I thought the crafting looked amazing, the base building is a new and cool looking feature that I wasn't expecting, and the combat looked good, but what the fuck do I know, I actually like most games I play.

I'm sure I'll like it. I can like it and appreciate it for a good game while still having a bit of a moan about what a terrible fallout game it looks like. I like most games, and only two games are fallout. But when they use the name with no regard for what made the originals good that irks me.

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ll_Exile_ll

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@amafi said:
@ll_exile_ll said:
@jesushammer said:

@ll_exile_ll: Well I hated Skyrim for being super dumbed down and barely an RPG. Odds all if you take one of my favourite RPG series and make it into even simpler Skyrim I'll probably not be happy about it. Also what looked that great? The animation looked bad, the base building is totally optional and probably serves no purpose, Bethesda hasn't made a good story since Morrowind, and to boot it might not have anything that it's predecessors had? The crafting system looked cool and everything else looked like a Fallout. I don't see what was so amazing about what they showed and if they've somehow dumbed this down more than FO3 and made Skyrim 2.0 I have no interest at all personally.

I'm sorry, unlike the GB staff (and apparently a majority of the people on these forums) I don't default to cynicism and negativity for everything. I thought the crafting looked amazing, the base building is a new and cool looking feature that I wasn't expecting, and the combat looked good, but what the fuck do I know, I actually like most games I play.

I'm sure I'll like it. I can like it and appreciate it for a good game while still having a bit of a moan about what a terrible fallout game it looks like. I like most games, and only two games are fallout. But when they use the name with no regard for what made the originals good that irks me.

It's your right to prefer the old Fallout games over what Bethesda does, but Fallout 3 came out 7 years ago. Any expectation Bethesda is going to do anything remotely like what those old games were is kind of foolish at this point.

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RonGalaxy

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wouldnt perks just replace skills?

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JesusHammer

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@ll_exile_ll: Well after New Vegas it seemed like they might use things from that game which felt really Fallout while still being new. It was a good balance and this just seems like them throwing out all the improvements New Vegas made. It just really makes me wish they outsourced it to Obsidian permanently because this just isn't what I want out of Fallout or RPGs.