Have Skills been removed from Fallout?

I only played it for 10 hours, which is why I'm pretending like I know and just need you to remind me..

Oh yeah! There's a barter bobblehead, 13 skills, duh, now us four know :D

I guess what people come to Fallout wanting is changing as most people seem to have that preference for more robust FPS mechanics than a deep leveling system doing all the math in the background. I'm not sure where I stand personally I come to the Fallout games having played the original as a kid/teen and largely not get far due to their difficulty. So anything that still delivers that great fallout world in a more approachable way is great to me however is this a step too far?

It's quite obvious they have taken out skills and replaced them with "skill perks." Now you just raise your "skill" in an area in by getting a ranked perk. This is for the best. When you play Fallout 3, (or 2 or 1 for that matter), you probably put all of your points for each level into one skill. That means you're only leveling up that skill a max, 8-9 times, at the very most. Skill perks just become each rank up. Plus, as someone had said earlier, skill checks for lockpicking happen at four intervals of 25, 50, 75, and 100 so it only would need four ranked perks anyway. There's nothing to worry about.

Probably right, now that you point it out. I suppose really it comes down to increasingly taking dice rolls out of RPGs, doesn't it? Like, in the original games, a 67 skill in lockpicking meant a 67% chance of picking a lock of a certain difficulty (for example, numbers pulled out of my ass), and this applied across all skills (no idea how stealth worked for them though - not very well as I recall!).

People hated in fallout 3 that point and shoot didn't mean point, shoot and hit (understandably), so it's not desirable to have dice rolls there. Similarly, with lockpicking, hacking etc there's a minigame now, so the same restriction applies to some extent, so those skills really just become a method of gating access. Maybe you allow for more gradual decreases in the difficulty of the minigame itself. I feel like in the past they did this with lockpicking, but maybe not with science as it might be trickier.

Speech checks definitely stand out as something which is mechanically the same in old and new Fallouts, but which has had the RNG element removed (actually, did fallout 3 use an RNG for speech checks? It's been a long time!). That fits in with a whole other trend of exposing these systems in RPGs rather than leaving them under the hood.I believe inn older fallouts (likewise infinity engine games) there would be no warning you were about to get a speech check.

There are other areas - stealth, repair etc - where more mathematical systems still make sense (distance at which you can be spotted, amount of durablity restored etc) but obviously having separate systems for these is silly.

I guess a lot of it comes down to people want to feel like their character progression has an immediate and direct relationship with their progression through the story - rather than it being a sort of preparation for a probability based number game. When it comes right down to it, I'm not sure I've ever felt the RNG has added to my experience in and of itself (maybe XCOM).

And, to sum up my ramblings, there are definitely things involved in bringing Fallout to the first person that warrant the excision of the random element, and the only things that do suffer, suffer minutely. I'm coming round to the idea, really.

If a perk represents 10-25 points of a certain skill then that'd be just fine I think. Buying 5 ranks in a sneak perk would max you out. As long as you level up faster than you did in 3 that'd work.

No

@dudeglove: the way playing with a very low int, pe, or cha in fallout 2 changes interactions with NPCs is probably the best part of the game.

@bhlaab: The skills don't appear to have been completely removed. Watching some of the promo videos there was a short clip of a bobble head. I did find an image of it, and it does indeed list the Charisma, Agility, and Barter Bobble Heads.

We have the verdict on this now. Yeah, skills are gone, and the focus is on a deeper and more varied perk system instead.

I can get behind it. It's kinda like GB's justification for star ratings: What's the actual difference between an 82 and an 85 for a video game? Likewise, what's the difference between someone who is 60 in Small Guns and someone who is 66? I don't see a huge amount of value in that level of mathematical minutiae, particularly now that the core gameplay is essentially that of a shooter.

@moonshadow101: There literally wasn't a difference until you reached 25, 50, 75, and 100, which is why this new system just makes more sense. Granted, they probably could have just improved the old skill system instead of totally throwing it out the window, but eh, either way works.

Yeah, I think it probably makes sense in a first person game. I think I already said this in this thread, but the old skill system made sense when it was all dice-rolls, and it was essentially a probability system. I think you could still make it work for lockpicking and stuff, but for gun skills a perk system makes more sense.

With that said I imagine it will seriously truncate the progression, and potentially remove any sense of a tradeoff (It used to be "lockpicking vs science," whereas now it might be "lockpicking vs science later"). With that said, it was pretty trivial in Fallout 3, and definitely in Fallout New Vegas, to get every skill up to near enough maximum.

I dunno. On the one hand, yes, it makes perfect sense and I can't really think of any reason why it shouldn't be done this way. On the other hand, it just feels so far away from what Fallout is, and what I loved about it way back when. But I'm one of those guys who thinks Bethesda never really got Fallout in the first place, so maybe it's all a moot point anyway.

@thomasnash: At least there's wasteland 2.

Yeah, I do like Wasteland 2, but it doesn't quite scratch the fallout itch either, in some ways. I think the fact it is a party based game changes the feel of it a lot, but also I don't get the same sense of like, a global history that I did from Fallout, if that makes sense? Like, it feels less like you're in a small part of a wider world, and more like the world itself is small. I'm only a short way into it though, so this could change, for sure!

There's other things as well, but I think it would be quite unfair to harp on about them too much. It's mostly a result of the amount of resources available to that kind of game not really keeping pace with the demands of modern games (and gamers!). The move to 3D is probably necessary, because I'm not sure you could sell a sprite based Isometric game these days, but it leaves the game feeling a lot flatter in combat than the original Fallouts did - they had animations with a huge amount of character. I don't think there are many moments in gaming more satisfying than using the .223 pistol in Fallout, and getting the animation where a huge chunk of a dude's chest is just blown away.

I should stop because I am aware I sound like the worst kind of person right now!

@thomasnash: I know the feeling. I also feel like a hypocrite or just a spoiled baby because I'm always going on at length about how much I love the old Fallouts and how I wish they made something more like those classic games. Then Wasteland 2 comes along and I'm like, uhhhhh, well it's not exactly what I wanted.. it has 3D sprites, and you need to make a party and it doesn't feel like Fallout.

You suddenly sound like that worst kind of person that basically wants exactly the same game they already played a decade ago, but at the same time doesn't want it to be that same game. Maybe Fallout 4 will be great, I was super disappointed by the previous two Bethesda published entries. Hopefully they worked on their open world formula.. god I hope they have less of those teleporting doors.

I think Pillars of Eternity totally pulled off that thing of for me. It simultaneously satisfied the craving for one of those old school Infinity Engine based RPGs yet it was done with a lot of quality of life improvements and some new ideas and better graphical fidality, that all worked. For Wasteland 2 it's not so much you being spoiled and just wanting for old stuff it's that the areas where the game decided to go for it's own thing it did not execute those things very well, all things actually not just new stuff. Wasteland 2 wasn't very good is what I'm saying, not because of our wants but just by itself.

I'm less impressed by Pillars than you are I think, but it is definitely a better product than Wasteland 2 (which I like!) in terms of production values. The environments are gorgeous. It doesn't feel like that much like the infinity engine games to me, tbh, although that's not necessarily a negative! It feels a lot more like a real world of, you know, actual physical objects and space that has a meaning, where the infinity engine games are more like a strange, abstract visualisation of a numbers game. PoE feels more like Temple of Elemental Evil or even that recent(ish) Pool of Radiance game. Tactical positioning and so on are more precise and "real." I suppose this is just what you mean when you talk about quality of life improvements?

With that said, I don't mind that it feels like it's own thing, not just a rehash of Baldur's Gate. That's largely because I still play Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale quite often, especially now I can play the enhanced editions on my nexus 7. Unfortunately, Fallouts 1 and 2 haven't aged as well as those games, so I find them a lot harder to go back to.

On the one hand I think a more varied and in depth perk system is a great answer to what Bethesda normally does with its skill checks, but on the other... I really like seeing numbers go up. :(

I never tried Pillars because I only ever really like Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 from those days. After beating those I fancied myself an "RPG" fan but then you realize there are no other RPG's like Fallout. Baldurs Gate didn't do it for me at all and Arcanum was too buggy back in those days. I did beat Planescape Torment but admittedly almost exclusively with a guide because it's a very convoluted game where it's easy to miss a lot of side stuff.

I dunno, I keep waiting for that Fallout 3 that I always wanted but it hasn't come yet. I thought Shadowrun would do it but I didn't think that game was very good at all for a variety of reasons, and Neuromancer is one of my favorite novels of all time so it seems like it should have been tailor made for me. What I would really want is something that has X-COM combat and the original Fallout writing with a good mix of meaningful choices along the way. Something that doesn't feel like someones first attempt at a videogame, which was very much the vibe I got from Dragonfall.

I feel really guilty when it comes to RPGs these days because there are some really good titles at good prices to be found today but I almost always end up feeling rather underwhelmed by large aspects of them.

Pillars is interesting but there are things that just make it come up a little short for me or seem distracting. I hate anything in game that reminds me that this was a kickstarter project and the companions just haven't popped for me the same way that classic Fallout or Baldur's Gate companions did. I still enjoy it but given the people involved I was hoping for more in terms of story and characters.

I've actually really enjoyed the Shadowrun games but I have to agree with you that it often feels more like someone's decent but otherwise unremarkable tabletop campaign. I'm not sure if it's the mechanics, the art, or the actual story but just feel a bit crude at time like it needed another detail pass of some sort. Like I said I enjoyed Shadowrun but not without reservations.

Wasteland 2 is interesting. I backed it and played it at release and thought it was okay but not great and left it behind for some other games. This weekend I installed the director's cut version and for reasons I can't quite nail down it just feels better compared to the release version. The progression seems smoother and feels more polished. Still wouldn't compare it to the original Fallout but seems to be decent enough at this point.

Isn't is pretty obvious you'll level up your skills by doing the various tasks associated with them though? Like Skyrim. You pick a lock, you gain lockpicking. You barter stuff, you gain barter experience.

I bet there is somewhere to look up what your actual skill level is, but no need for a separate section on the Pip Boy for it because you won't level it by dumping points into it.

@zevvion: We've actually known exactly how the new system works since that leveling video they released a while back.

@zevvion: They explicitly stated that skills are gone and they only have attributes and perks. There will be no TES style 'do the action and level up the corresponding skill'.

I think at the end of the day, what I'm most worried about is how this will the conversation system be affected by these changes. Fallout 3's speech checks were fucking weak but New Vegas really nailed it. By having conversation options locked behind skill requirements it made me feel like the way I specced my character really mattered. I felt like it was a role playing game. Which is what I want out of my roleplaying games. Not numbers that go up or sick loot or any of the other shit. I like to play a character in a world.

Looking at the Mass Effect style dialogue wheel (the issue is it limits the number of possible responses), knowing that they have a voiced character (same issue again) and hearing how they've made the shooting a big focus I'm just afraid that this going to move further away from what I want from an RPG.

If this becomes an ok scifi shooter with dialogue that ultimately doesn't really matter then I'm just going to be sad. Mass Effect was a fine series (3 was pretty shit though cause they had to hammer everything into the shape they wanted) but we have that already. Let Fallout be Fallout.

I'll end my old man rant now, the game will probably be fine :) I'm just being precious about a series that I have loved for almost 20 years.

@arabes: to be fair, you can't exactly be surprised that Bethesda is slowly removing more and more of what we consider "RPG elements" from its games. They've been doing that for a long time. RPG is pretty much just meaning open world and create a character.

@fluttercry: I'm going to channel my mother! - "I'm not surprised but I am disappointed :("

But don't get me wrong, I really hope this game is great. Fallout is my favourite franchise and its hard for me not to feel some sense of ownership over it (which is ridiculous). it's just that its been an important part of my gaming for so long.

In case you missed it, this video from Bethesda talks about character perks.

Tiered perks replace skills and access to those perks are gated by having enough points in the relevant SPECIAL stat. So in that video you see Sneaking as a perk, and each rank increases your ability to go undetected by 20% or something. I guess it will also be modified by your overall Agility stat which needs to be Level 3 to unlock the Sneak perk in the first place.

Honestly I think this will be a fine system. As others have said, dumping numbers most of the time left you wondering about the improvements to your character. Getting to 100 was good and hitting milestones for certain perks was cool, but this looks like it will be much easier to tell what's changed.

I need to know what the higher tiers of Bloody Mess do.

For me RPG always has and always will mean "Role Playing Game", not "Roll Playing Game".

And as far as I'm concerned Bethesda continues to do a fantastic job at creating systems and worlds for me to act a "Role" in.

The fact that people consider games like this non-RPG and games like Final Fantasy pure-RPG tells me that I have a vastly different opinion on what RPG means.

They really, really don't.

Creating worlds, that's debatable. Systems-- no.

I want to get better at lock picking and still be able to get Bloody Mess. They were two separate systems and I liked it that way. Some perks did boost skills but I always enjoyed the goofier perks and I don't want to miss out on those because now I have to use the same points for everything