(PC) Engine Speed tied to FPS WTF?

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Jace

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Has anyone seen this video yet? The game goes up to almost double speed if you have 200-250 frames. This is insanity. Hopefully they patch it because it's just so amateur.



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Sanity

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#2  Edited By Sanity

Why would you have that many frames? Unless your running a 120hz monitor theirs no reason to go over 60.

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Jace

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#3  Edited By Jace

@sanity said:

Why would you have that many frames? Unless your running a 120hz monitor theirs no reason to go over 60.

Uhhh because 120hz monitors are pretty common, and hardware that can easily push this game over 144 FPS is also common?

This is just lazy, I hope more people realize it.

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deactivated-601df795ee52f

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Hasn't this always been the case for Bethesda RPGs?

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Sanity

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#5  Edited By Sanity
@jace said:
@sanity said:

Why would you have that many frames? Unless your running a 120hz monitor theirs no reason to go over 60.

Uhhh because 120hz monitors are pretty common, and hardware that can easily push this game over 144 FPS is also common?

This is just lazy, I hope more people realize it.

Yea, im guessing it would, just i suppose it was a given since skyrim had the same issue and its the same engine. Its not that much of suprise to me is all.

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deactivated-5fc86d541ecee

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Skyrim also had major issues when running above 60 and I'm pretty sure that never got fixed. I wouldn't get your hopes up that this patched.

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Jace

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@sanity: @friendlyphoenix:

The difference is that 7 years have passed and they've just copy/pasted without working to change anything. Something like this is outright embarrassing, and "Skyrim is the only game that does this" isn't an excuse anymore in 2015.

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Sanity

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@jace said:

@sanity: @friendlyphoenix:

The difference is that 7 years have passed and they've just copy/pasted without working to change anything. Something like this is outright embarrassing, and "Skyrim is the only game that does this" isn't an excuse anymore in 2015.

Not defending it per say, just unless they change there engine i dont think theirs anyway around it. Skyrim was nuts on higher framerates.

Loading Video...

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Alx223

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They haven't fixed a lot of Skyrim's bugs. When I loaded it up this morning my game kept minimizing due to the mouse not being restrained to the window just like Skyrim.

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Justin258

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#10  Edited By Justin258

Every Bethesda game has had physics tied to framerate.

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PufferFiz

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Programming 101 is a hard concept I'm afraid.

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planetary

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mrpandaman

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@alx223: Basically have to see what modders can patch up themselves. Honestly I can't even trust Bethesda to fix their own games.

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GERALTITUDE

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They would address it if it's an easy fix, must be a non-negotiable of the engine. Was never "patched" for Skyrim and they never gave any indication it would be.

Obviously the people working on this game have similar/better monitors & hardware.

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SchrodngrsFalco

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#15  Edited By SchrodngrsFalco

All I'm saying is that if I were playing Game Dev Tycoon and an issue like that popped up with the engine, I would build a new engine for my next big release.

Then again, from a business standpoint, they know the game was going to sell very well anyways, so why would they bother developing a new engine.

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Sanity

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Yea, i'll be real curious if they switch to a new engine for the next TES game, i feel like they sorta have to but it wouldn't surprise me if they stretched it another 5 years.

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audioBusting

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Sadly, not fixing an out-of-scope issue that affects only a small number of users (PC users with >60Hz monitor = a niche of a niche) that has an acceptable workaround is as professional as it gets. Most games with Havok just don't bother with 60+ FPS.

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Keirgo

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#18  Edited By Keirgo

Well that's disappointing.

It was a long shot, but I had hoped Bethesda would have fixed this issue with Fallout 4.

I guess I will have to settle for 60Hz... again.

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teaoverlord

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@sanity said:

Yea, i'll be real curious if they switch to a new engine for the next TES game, i feel like they sorta have to but it wouldn't surprise me if they stretched it another 5 years.

I mean they've been using it for 13 years, what's another 5?

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SchrodngrsFalco

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#20  Edited By SchrodngrsFalco

So do we know if the game be capped at 60 fps then? And if it's not, does that mean we have to set the monitor to 60hz and then turn on V-sync?

My thought process correct?

ANSWERED: Game caps only to your monitors refresh rate without having to turn on V-sync.

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Jace

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chaser324

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#22 chaser324  Moderator

This is more of a middleware issue than anything in Bethesda's own code. Most games that use Havok physics don't behave well when you go over 60 frames per second. It does seem like pretty shotty game programming - frame rate independence is a well-trodden concept and pretty much the standard - but there may well be a technical justification for this approach.

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OurSin_360

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And they let you uncap the framerate? If it's part of the engine i would imagine they would cap the framerate at 60fps like Metal gear did. If your using a mod to uncap the framerate then your breaking the engine , sure it sucks if you have a 120hz monitor but it's better than glitching all over the place or playing in fast forward lol. Shit like that happened in the first darksouls on pc if you went over 30fps, even in DS2 i think they tied weapon durabilty to framerate which made it glitch (or may have been intended). I think the term is Delta time? Where events are governed ouside of fps, and if it's tied to the engine it would probably take a revamp of the whole thing to fix. I couldn't imagine they are still using skyrims engine though?

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yates

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#24  Edited By yates

So do we know if the game be capped at 60 fps then? And if it's not, does that mean we have to set the monitor to 60hz and then turn on V-sync?

My thought process correct?

I think it hard locks itself at 60fps at default so you can still play at a higher refresh rate if you wish.

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Bollard

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Skyrim also had major issues when running above 60 and I'm pretty sure that never got fixed. I wouldn't get your hopes up that this patched.

Yeah. this is a feature. Oblivion did the same thing - if you run the game at 300fps you can move like 2x as fast as at 60fps.

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killacam

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Calling game devs lazy is one of the more ignorant things you can say.

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mikemcn

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Frame limit it to 60, you can't really see more frames than that anyways. Lots of old games used to be tied to cpu cycles, i'm not sure why.

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justicejanitor

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#28  Edited By justicejanitor
@mikemcn said:

Frame limit it to 60, you can't really see more frames than that anyways.

Not if you have a monitor with a higher refresh rate.

I tried playing Skyrim the other day with a 144Hz monitor. The framerate was actually locked at my monitor's refresh rate and not a hard lock at 60. I had an interesting experience.

I get that when Skyrim was first released, monitors that have a higher refresh rate weren't as common but these days they are and I'm hoping Fallout 4 doesn't have the same issue.

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mikemcn

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@mikemcn said:

Frame limit it to 60, you can't really see more frames than that anyways.

Not if you have a monitor with a higher refresh rate.

I tried playing Skyrim the other day with a 144Hz monitor. The framerate was actually locked at my monitor's refresh rate and not a hard lock at 60. I had an interesting experience.

I get that when Skyrim was first released, monitors that have a higher refresh rate weren't as common but these days they are and I'm hoping Fallout 4 doesn't have the same issue.

I didn't consider that, some of those frame locked games would add speed sliders as an option, maybe that could be patched in?

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justicejanitor

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@mikemcn: Honestly, if your game logic is dependent on frame rate, I think the best course of action would be to cap the frame rate at an engine level. I know most people have 60Hz monitor but now that higher refresh rate monitors are becoming more mainstream, I think developers have to account for that.

I still think the best thing to do is not have your game logic tied to the frame rate but I get that it's not the easiest thing to implement, especially if you're building on top of an older engine.

I think it's time for Bethesda to scrap their old engine and start from scratch.

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SchrodngrsFalco

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#31  Edited By SchrodngrsFalco

Just confirmed that the game will lock to whatever your monitor's refresh rate is (no need to turn on V-sync). I've tested it at 60/120/144hz. I'll probably be locking mine to 60 and running ultra just to be sure to avoid some unwanted jank.

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ripelivejam

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I guess you could say their engine is .... Gamebryonic

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Nadril

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@jace said:
@sanity said:

Why would you have that many frames? Unless your running a 120hz monitor theirs no reason to go over 60.

Uhhh because 120hz monitors are pretty common, and hardware that can easily push this game over 144 FPS is also common?

This is just lazy, I hope more people realize it.

Yeah, I've got a 144hz monitor myself. They honestly aren't very expensive (I think mine was ~ $230 or so).

Games locking physics to framerate suck. Likewise games that lock to 60 fps are also my bane now.

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rethla

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@nadril said:

Yeah, I've got a 144hz monitor myself. They honestly aren't very expensive (I think mine was ~ $230 or so).

Games locking physics to framerate suck. Likewise games that lock to 60 fps are also my bane now.

Bethesda games is the perfect match for you then. Physics is locked to FPS and you have to lock the FPS to 60 to have it playable.

How can Bethesdas shitty game engines be a surprise to anyone at this point?

SPOILER: There wont ever be a patch that fix this.

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mosdl

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I guess you could say their engine is .... Gamebryonic

Has nothing to do with Gamebryo for once actually!

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SomeJerk

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I wanted the PC version so that I could survive things like getting stuck in an elevator because of some obscure-aft bug triggered super early tainting the character so that no matter how far back the saves go the elevator will always get the character stuck, and now I no longer want it. Good job reviewers, Bethesda will continue doing this until the end of days because you suck them dry no matter how great they make Ubi products look.

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rethla

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#37  Edited By rethla

Just confirmed that the game will lock to whatever your monitor's refresh rate is (no need to turn on V-sync). I've tested it at 60/120/144hz. I'll probably be locking mine to 60 and running ultra just to be sure to avoid some unwanted jank.

So there is no way to play this game without manually setting your screen to 60Hz every time before you start Fallout 4?

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SchrodngrsFalco

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@rethla said:
@hypnotoadbrwowrowrow said:

Just confirmed that the game will lock to whatever your monitor's refresh rate is (no need to turn on V-sync). I've tested it at 60/120/144hz. I'll probably be locking mine to 60 and running ultra just to be sure to avoid some unwanted jank.

So there is no way to play this game without manually setting your screen to 60Hz every time before you start Fallout 4?

I use NVidia inspector and just set the F4 profile to framerate cap at 60 and let my monitor do whatever. I'm surprised the NVidia Control Panel doesn't have this option.

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css_switchfoot

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Is the reverse true? Does the game run slower at frame rates below 30?

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rethla

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#40  Edited By rethla

@css_switchfoot said:

Is the reverse true? Does the game run slower at frame rates below 30?

Yes it runs slower/faster but it doesnt break anything. Up to 100fps is reported to work without anything breaking but above that its just crazytown.

@hypnotoadbrwowrowrow:Thanks, works like a charm!

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justicejanitor

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@pkmnfrk said:

This framerate thing is an issue to less than 1% of people playing this game on PC.

No offence but I would think it's a lot more than that. It's a bummer for people who have a higher refresh rate monitor. Honestly, if you buy a "higher end" monitor these days it's either going to be 4K or have a higher than 60Hz refresh rate, sometimes both. That and it also affects people who want to disable V-Sync because it often adds in input lag.

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@killacam said:

Calling game devs lazy is one of the more ignorant things you can say.

So devs that use the same broken engine with the same broken bugs that their last few games had isn't lazy...it's hard work? Help me out here what is the most appropriate word to use for this situation.

inb4 it's an open world game so it's supposed to have game limiting bugs :^)

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rethla

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@hohum said:
@killacam said:

Calling game devs lazy is one of the more ignorant things you can say.

So devs that use the same broken engine with the same broken bugs that their last few games had isn't lazy...it's hard work? Help me out here what is the most appropriate word to use for this situation.

inb4 it's an open world game so it's supposed to have game limiting bugs :^)

Well its the old argument that the devs work their ass off and the game being bad is the result of bad upper management and not the devs. Its strange that when the game is good its all due to the devs and not to the uppermanagement..

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charlie_victor_bravo

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@mikemcn said:

Frame limit it to 60, you can't really see more frames than that anyways. Lots of old games used to be tied to cpu cycles, i'm not sure why.

Using CPU cycle was sort of optimizing trick - both for performance and ease of coding. Clock speeds were pretty standard back in the day and using them instead of programmed timing functions or loops, made things easier to code and less resource intensive for the machine to run.

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conmulligan

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#46  Edited By conmulligan

@hohum said:

@killacam said:

Calling game devs lazy is one of the more ignorant things you can say.

So devs that use the same broken engine with the same broken bugs that their last few games had isn't lazy...it's hard work? Help me out here what is the most appropriate word to use for this situation.

Lazy would be if they sat around all day twiddling their thumbs instead of working, but the sheer amount of content in their games makes that possibly extremely unlikely. Bethesda have always prioritised depth and scope over polish, and probably always will. That doesn't make them lazy.

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Driadon

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@hohum said:
@killacam said:

Calling game devs lazy is one of the more ignorant things you can say.

So devs that use the same broken engine with the same broken bugs that their last few games had isn't lazy...it's hard work? Help me out here what is the most appropriate word to use for this situation.

inb4 it's an open world game so it's supposed to have game limiting bugs :^)

Making games in general is hard work, takes a long time, and costs millions of dollars. Coming up with a solution for an issue like this is not as easy as many gamers believe it is. Maybe the better term is short sighted.

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deactivated-5e851fc84effd

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Calling devs like Bethesda lazy seems pretty lazy.

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mikemcn

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#49  Edited By mikemcn

@charlie_victor_bravo said:
@mikemcn said:

Frame limit it to 60, you can't really see more frames than that anyways. Lots of old games used to be tied to cpu cycles, i'm not sure why.

Using CPU cycle was sort of optimizing trick - both for performance and ease of coding. Clock speeds were pretty standard back in the day and using them instead of programmed timing functions or loops, made things easier to code and less resource intensive for the machine to run.

Oh ok, I was playing an Old RTS Cossacks recently and it was cpu-tied, so on modern machines it just blazes, and becomes wayyyy harder because the AI moves and thinks far faster than you ever could. But there is also a speed slider to remedy that. I can't blame them for circumventing it on the old games, but on modern machines that is a huge oversight.

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weapongod30

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@sanity said:

Yea, i'll be real curious if they switch to a new engine for the next TES game, i feel like they sorta have to but it wouldn't surprise me if they stretched it another 5 years.

I mean they've been using it for 13 years, what's another 5?

Huh? Morrowind and Oblivion used the same engine, but Skyrim was put out with their newer Creation engine, which is also what Fallout 4 uses, not the Gamebryo engine of TES 3/4 and Fallout 3.