Cancelling my sub

Saying that everything meaningful has only ever come from peaceful protests is not only a woefully idealistic view of history, but ignores fundamental truths about the women's suffrage movements, labour rights movements, civil rights, or the Pride movement, NONE of which achieved their goals without the exact kind of rioting we see today.

Peaceful protests are very easy to ignore, belittle, and suppress. Colin Kaepernick should be proof enough of that. Despite this, the VAST majority of protesters out there on the streets are doing so peacefully. In any case, any violence that could possibly be enacted by protesters is in no way comparable to their brutalization by heavily militarized cops. One side has riot gear, tear gas, stun grenades, surplus military assault rifles, armored vehicles, etc. The other side has... water bottles? Some bricks laid out by the police specifically to enable opportunists?

If you believe in peaceful protest then loudly support the thousands of peaceful protesters on the streets right now; or the people campaigning for police/prison reform; or the people who run soup kitchens, mental health services, daycare services, etc., which help black and other marginalized communities try and mitigate the effects of systemic inequality everyday. But remember that moral hand wringing does truly nothing at all.

(Thank you to the mods and admins of the site. I really appreciate the work y'all are doing to try and keep these conversations happening.)

I'm not particularly a fan of war and they are often pointless, but there are at least a few that have led to significant change - even just in the context of the United States. We couldn't even end something so clearly appalling as slavery without a war.

Now, I'm not saying that means violence is the only means by which significant change can be achieved, but there is some historical context for the fact that sometimes it becomes necessary due to how unwilling those in power are to change.

Certainly the peaceful outcome, where the voice of the people is so united and strong that it can't be denied, is the ideal.

Dude, you are extremely confused please go look at the many images of cops breaking up strikes and acting as the tools of the upper class to aid in the oppression of the working class. They do indeed come from the same backgrounds as working-class people but the reality is they have chosen to join an organization of systemic oppression they can certainly cease being a cop and understand why they were wrong and we should accept them if they do but you cannot defend them under normal class logic they are armed and have incredible power over people. They can sometimes be helpful if your extremely lucky, middle class, or white but that does not justify an organization of mass oppression continuing to exist and further militarise.

All of this said, and despite having voiced the exact same sentiment, at the end of the day it's all just armchair theory crafting. The current balance of power means any actual attempt at organized violent rebellion will just get literally murdered.

There's a reason violent slave rebellions never actually worked.

Alright, I'm sorry for getting under the gun here but I think a lot of us should take a little break here. I'll be locking this overnight but we'll be back in the morning for more discussion on topics multifarious. Please be good to yourselves and everyone in your life.

I cannot understand how anyone inside of America can look at your police force, look at footage of them attacking peaceful protesters, look at the glee on their faces while they're doing it and the giddiness in their step and not see that it's a corrupt and fucked up organization that needs both massive defunding and massive reform.

More is being spent on providing your police force with equipment that would make some countries military forces blush, just so they can beat the shit out of journalists and reporters and the public.

But no, a white woman on Twitter said ACAB and that is the HEIGHT of ignorance and childishness.

I've looked on with horror and shock at the footage coming out of America these days. It's absolutely unbelievable. My own country, held a demonstration against whats happening there, and guess what? It went off without a hitch and nobody got hurt. Everyone showed up, they marched through the city, our police did their job by containing the streets and making sure that the protesters kept to the route and that no cars or vehicles tried to go down roads they shouldn't and then everyone went home. But then I live in a country where we don't militarize our police force. We don't even give them guns for patrolling the streets. Most of them will never use a gun in active duty in their careers.

Absolute head in the sand behaviour from some people over this.

@the_doctor: Who is saying they are against protesting. I'm not, I've made this pretty clear in this thread. I draw a clear line between protesting and rioting/looting.

Your support of this movement seems to revolve around "cops breaking up strikes" and generally being useful tools of the rich. Ok. Does this excuse the cops in NYC that were ambushed, stabbed and shot last night?

What about the SUV that ran over a crowd of police in Buffalo? Is this revenge for the widely circulated video Abby shared where cops in an SUV rammed a barrier?

Seriously, it's a simple question. Please tell me how your math problem works. What are the variables in human lives that add up to "cops breaking up strikes". If you can't answer, disown this shit.

The NYPD and Buffalo have among the lowest rates of police involved killing in the nation, they are the outliers. This is random violence, you have some shitty bad actors taking advantage of your cause, just like there are some racists in the NYPD and Buffalo Police, just like there are some racists in America. This should be common sense.

Disown this shit, or explain your math problem of how human lives stack up, and how you justify it.

There are currently no strikes ongoing as part of the current protests I am referring to the general history of police violence in the united states the op specifically talked about Marx and how the protests related to class theory. There is am offering this past history as evidence that police oppress the working class it's a completely different point. Your response has nothing to do with that point whatsoever unless you have some thoughts on if cops can be considered to be the proletariat. But i get this vague feeling from the tone of your comment you are not a person who is into Marx.

@the_doctor: You guessed right.

If the cops who are the good cops can't save us from the cops who are "the inevitable" bad cops, the good cops end up supporting & enabling the bad cops and then I lose track of why they get to be called cops unless they trademarked it first.

@north6: The point you don't seem to get is those cops and their families will have more than a good chance of seeing justice through the court system. Black people are being killed by police who are getting a slap on the hand as punishment.

The cops are fine. The system works for them. We don't need to worry about them.

Black people are being murdered for no reason and it's weird as hell you want to play apple and oranges about that.

"The NYPD and Buffalo have among the lowest rates of police involved killing in the nation, they are the outliers."

Is this supposed to a positive statement? That the police forces with the LOWEST KILLINGS are OUTLIERS?

In fact the unions are so powerful it's hard to discipline and fire police officers, even when they have been found to have broken the rules.

As I working from home I have some 1980s Richard Marx playing. Some real bangers: "Should Have Known Better", "Angelia", "Hold Onto the Night", and "Right Here Waiting for You" are all great Marx .

Yep, agreed. Unions, qualified immunity need to go. Police should be demilitarized. Still haven't heard why it's ok to run cops over or stab them, waiting for someone to either enlighten me or disown this. It will only get worse, that's the only thing I'm certain of, and I can't fathom how people can fan those flames without even understanding where the fucking police killings are taking place.

Do you not understand statistics, or are you questioning mine?

Where do I not get that point? This is the same point I'm making. I don't want to play apples and oranges. I can't make that more clear. I want someone to explain to me why they don't disown the attacks on cops, or explain to me how they have done the mental math problem that makes them OK with this.

Everyone should be guaranteed a right to protest. This isn't what anyone is debating.

Are you saying these attacks are justified? Disown this shit.

@north6: I said what I said and I will not engage in further discourse with you.

@xanadu: Unreal. Peace.

@north6: I'm done with you and people like you, don't fukin @ me

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nypd-officer-stabbed-unprovoked-attack-police-say-2-other-officers-n1224501

Here are the people abusing this movement. This needs to be peaceful or we are all fucked. Part of being peaceful is drawing clear lines around what is acceptable and what is not. This cannot be a controversial statement.

Cool? Before you bury yourself in self-congratulation, you might want to consider that if anyone doing the protesting in your country had any stakes in this issue or was affected in any real way, circumstances might have been a bit different.

Guess what. If a bunch of people want to march in a major American city in support of Tibetan freedom or some such, it tends to go just fine.

@frytup: you've missed my point. I'm not trying to say we're great. I'm saying your cops are a problem. Our protest went so well because we don't have the shitty cops who've been militarized that you guys have. We don't have a president whose been telling people to beat up journalist and kill them.

I've seen very little actual rioting after the first day or two, and even that was mostly very questionable looking white people trashing black communities. Everything I've seen from these protests is your cops being a disgrace.

Your cops are a problem. They need to be defunded, they need to be held accountable, they need to root out the racist cops immediately. The money used to provide them with military equipment needs to go to community programs, education and health centres.

I know there's more to your countries problems than just the cops, but Jesus Christ your cops are a fucking disgrace and that they got to be this way in the first place is an incredible accomplishment on the part of the scumbags who enabled it.

@north6: I really don't understand why people are so staunch in their denial / ignorance of this. Nobody I've seen here has said anything at all in support of police brutality, stopping protests or that the system doesn't need to change, despite these same strawmen being propped up continually.

We all want the same things and should be working together. The only chance the protests get us closer to a just system is if they are peaceful. I support the cause but I can't and won't support extremism in revenge killing or indiscriminate destruction and hate, it will only ever push us further from justice and further empower the systems we're trying to stand against.

In the name of all those who canceled their subs, I made sure to wear my GBeast shirt to the march in Hartford today.

Bye.

@jesus_phish: We really don't need an outsider telling us that we have a problem in a tone that makes it sound as if you've just discovered fire.

I think you missed my point. Your protests were guaranteed to go well because they didn't really matter. There was little to no emotion involved on either side.

As for American policing and certainly American political leadership, I think we can agree. With the caveat there are a few things that need to come first before we talk about disarming police. Such as actual gun control laws.

I don’t have it in me to both sides this, and I’m exhausted by the attempts.

Because there exists a relatively reasonable suspicion that these comments are not made in good faith, and are instead an attempt to distract and dissuade from the main goal of a movement. It's another version of whataboutism.

"But what about the negative side effects of your protest? Shouldn't you pour your attention onto that first?"

Welcome to the emotions that are given birth from decades of minimal progress.

@frytup: I'll acknowledge that the stakes here are much, much lower than there. But also you should realize that there is emotion or else people wouldn't have gone out to protest when we're literally still in the process of just reopening our country from the ongoing pandemic. Are they as strong, definitely not, they couldn't be. But they exist. Same as in all the other countries that held demonstrations on a mass scale.

But honestly the vast majority of what I've seen are your police being the aggressors. If your police weren't being so incredibly shitty the rest of the world wouldn't be looking at America like it's rapidly devolving into a war with itself.

And yes, I won't go into it but gun control is obviously another massive issue that needs to be fixed.

@turambar: I misread their post, deleted my comment... but I guess you did too, lol.

In any case, inferring anyone who wants to engage in dialogue with folks seemingly in favor of *unspecified* violent protests of whataboutism is about the most 2020 thing I can think of. Thanks for that.

Do you really think there is a single American in this thread that is not more aware of this than you could ever be?

I was actually just responding to you, and letting you know why people, including me, were going "maybe there just hasn't been enough violence" on page 3.

Do I want a civil war? No.

Am I pretty much open to any options that can lead to permanent positive change after how many decades of stagnation? Yes.

Also, someone asked why people seem so immediately put off by what you were saying. I gave the exact reason why. You might not be guilty of it, but you can't pretend those that are have not used that tactic before. If dialogue is important to you, your message needs to be easier to swallow.

@turambar: Literally just trying to provide my support but ok go off on one.

I'll leave this thread to the Americans. Good luck.

Be specific. Violence is a loaded word, so you should probably define that. That is mostly what I've been trying to get people to do. Is violence looting? Is violence physical, maiming? Is violence killing? Violence has been defined as verbal lately, is that what you mean?

Where should folks direct said violence? Everywhere? Should it be focused? There are some amazing charts out there that break down exactly which police precincts are actually most fault.

I would suggest you take some time to reflect why you felt this post was needed, educate yourself on people of color and how our country treats them, and why you felt that you had to call out the woman on staff, when plenty of the men on staff made similar comments as she did publicly.

When I use the word violence, I mean it literally. I mean the destruction of property. I mean the taking of life. When I made the reference to the Civil War, I wasn't doing it just for effect. I'm honestly willing to accept that solution if someone can convince me it is both practical and will lead to a permanent improvement.

The problem is no one has an answer or a solution. Not you, not anyone else here, and certainly not me. We only see what has been attempted in the past, what is being attempted now, and their end results. And what has been attempted is peace. What has been attempted is the denouncing of looters, the disowning of revenge killings. You need to understand that when you say what you do, it is calling for actions that have failed to produce results for decades.

Maybe those actions are still the right ones to take, but you cannot expect people to be so willing to accept it, to not view it with an eye of hesitation and suspicion.

If you want to offer support, by all means. However, telling people who are trying to put out a house fire that they should hurry up and fix their problem is not going to result in a welcoming response.

@north6: I feel maybe I didn't express myself clearly, I wasn't accusing you of making strawmen but there has been a lot of posts declaring people in support of police brutality etc. when they haven't said anything of the sort and are mostly just speaking against the more extremist ideologies and rhetoric that has been bandied about. The explicit calls for violence are worrying and short sighted.

@turambar: It seems like a slippery slope to assume that these arguments are made in bad faith. I can assure you I'm doing it from a place of support for reform and I feel that the more vocal people advocating the same are doing so for the right reasons also but I suppose there might not be much I can say to convince you of that.

If we assume that folk are making the argument against the more extremist side of the movement are doing so in bad faith, why are we giving them the easy ammunition to do so? Why not put an end to the extremist rhetoric and take away their platform, also removing the go-to excuses that the establishment are using and will continue to use to further suppress progress?

If folk are sincere in their concern, why are people that should be standing shoulder to shoulder being pushed away to hold on to words and deeds that won't do anything to further the cause? I find it hard to see how the extremist side of this benefits anything but the system we're fighting against and it should be an easy call to get rid of it.

Addressing the negative side of the protests is important when that negative side is actively hampering reaching the main goal of the movement. If the boat your on is leaking and you're still miles out, just continuing to the shore won't get you there, that shit needs plugging first.

I've been keeping an eye on this thread off and on and this is the craziest thing i've seen in it. It took what, 6 days of rioting after MLK was assassinated to get the Civil Rights Act passed? Keeping in mind that previously the Fair Housing Act was THE MOST filibustered act in US history. You cannot divorce these facts from each other. We simply DO not know IF or how long it would've taken the Civil Rights Act to pass without the riots, as far as we know rioting was integral to getting it passed.

Hell! according to most reports, the civil unrest of the 60s directly got black reporters hired at press outlets. There were stories(i believe it was even shown in like Mad Men or something) that reporters of color could directly tell you WHICH cities riots got them hired. Its completely ignorant of history to make a statement like "everything meaningful and lasting has come from peaceful protests", when Civil Unrest directly changed even how the papers reported on things going on in black neighborhoods.

@someoneproud: I'm an idiot and misread your post, apologies. I understood after re-reading. I deleted it but it got quoted too early.

@someoneproud: You're right. It's not logical. I know for a fact that my stance today is not logical because I said the exact things you were saying a decade ago on these very forums.

However, the emotions that come with decades with zero progress is fertile soil for one to go "Fuck being reasonable."

Truth. And most people don't understand that because it is not taught at all in schools. No, what most Americans believe is that MLK was a kindly man that warmed the hearts of white politicians with his acts of non-violent protests. Of course what your text books failed to mention that MLK, despite taking a non-violent stance, was all but aware of the conditions that allow riots to occur. "It is the language of the unheard."

All this talk of looters and rioters are a distraction to make you forget WHY this is happening. It is happening partly because we have an incompetent wanna-be dictator in office and cowards in the republican party who just let him do what he pleases, but mostly because our country refuses to have the reckoning needed to acknowledge this nation's white supremacy foundation.

no. Not even close. You choose to be a cop. You don't choose to be black.

You fucking kidding me with this shit?

Ok, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean "Fair housing act" when you say "Civil Rights Act" but sure, let's look at that. Examine your proposal more. Who was MLK? Why was his assassination likely the most tragic event of the 20th century? What was he known for, respected for? If MLK hadn't cultivated the respect and admiration of so many people across his life, would his assassination have been as meaningful? Would there have been riots?