@hugomonopoiy: Please don't be sarcastic in your responses to other users, especially not in this thread.
Giant Bomb is under new ownership.
Log in now to accept new terms and conditions and transfer your account to the new owner!
Commentary on GB Hiring
This topic is locked from further discussion.
@truthtellah: Us mods do our best to allow people to openly and honestly voice their opinions and engage in civil debate, but maintaining a balance between that openness and moderation is a difficult one. We never want to lock threads or discourage discussion, but we're a small team and at times it's an option that we exercise.
If there's one thing that I hope is clear though, it is that we are listening and want to do whatever we can to improve the community and make it a place where healthy and productive discussion can be had - a place where someone can civilly and respectfully express an opinion without fear of malicious retaliation. I assure you that it pains the moderators as much as anyone to see the Giant Bomb community described throughout the internet as "toxic", and I assure you that we take the issue very seriously. I can't speak for other mods, but I honestly view it as something of a personal failure to see that negative attitude and option being expressed about the GB community - a community that means a lot to mean, a community that I know to be predominantly great with the potential to be even better.
Events in recent years have made it evident that proactive changes are likely necessary to improve the quality of discussion, and while we've had ongoing discussions about it for quite a while, I can assure you that we're more serious than ever about making changes in the wake of some very disappointing E3 chats and statements that have been posted today.
As always, please continue to flag posts that you think require moderation - with the volume of posts being made, I can't express enough how helpful this is to us. In extreme cases that require immediate action, don't hesitate to send the mods a PM.
Also, if you would like to make more specific comments about ways that we might be able to improve moderation or other aspects of the community, please drop us a line and let us know. We're open to hearing all suggestions and opinions.
Nobody is going to be thinking about this a week from now.
@hugomonopoiy: Request granted.
@flacracker said:
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." Relevant quote?
Not really? I mean this all initially started because some people judged the new hire for being white males without taking even a single second to consider the content of their character and immediately dismissed the choices made. I mean Samantha Allen's first reaction was word for word "(deep sigh) it's a man..." said in a particularly condescending tone and she never talked about Dan at all for the next 15 minutes. It doesn't justify death threats of course. It would have only justified dismissal of her opinion on the matter.
Well i guess it's a relevant quote after all.
And with that i'm not trying to have Dan be the victim in all that. He and the staff can defend themselves and don't need me for that.
@fiercedeity said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@fiercedeity said:
@counterclockwork87 said:
@cabbagesensei said:
One of my fears is if Giant Bomb decides to publicly talk about the applicants' demographics, and it's revealed that little to no minorities or women applied, some people will say "See! We were right." They will casually ignore that the tone and atmosphere created by some (vocal) people in this community might keep minorities and women from applying in the first place.
I'm a minortiy, 100 percent hispanic first generation American (just to give an example my father was born in the Dominican Republic). I applied to work at Giant Bomb as a producer and I must say I was incredibly qualified as I've worked in television as a producer on things WAY bigger than Giant Bomb for a few years now. While Drew and Vinny were going to E3 I was producing content at the GRAMMYs (not diminishing their work of course!). Only reason I applied to GB is because I love the guys there even though it may be a "step down" from big time television. All that said, and despite my really good resume/reel I knew I had no shot...I KNEW someone from the inner circle of game journos would get the job. Why did I apply then? Because for a second I thought Jeff really wanted FRESH BLOOD, I really thought he meant it. Kind of like when they make a new Superman movie and they ask people what do they want an established star or a fresh face...lots of times people ask for a fresh face which is why Brandon Routh and Henry Cavill got those roles. Sometimes you just want someone new and I thought maybe that's what Giant Bomb was looking for. I have no ill will towards the new hires, I actually quite like Dan Ryckert...but I still find Giant Bomb comes off badly making this hire out to be more than it was every going to be. They should've just hired Dan and Jason and never made their hiring practices public on the forums....I doubt this would be happening if they just did this like when they hired Patrick (even though he got his fair share of hate, it wasn't for this reason).
If you came across as being this condescending in your resume, I can see why they wouldn't have considered you. Or, they could have simply considered you overqualified.
Condescending? How could you even make a claim about a resume you never saw? Overqualified? I thought people were arguing that they wanted applicants with lots of experience. Which is it?
I make the claim based on what he wrote in his own damn post. Seriously, read it. If "I must say I was incredibly qualified as I've worked in television as a producer on things WAY bigger than Giant Bomb" doesn't come off as condescending, even if it wasn't intentional, I really don't know what to say. Fuck, look at
"Only reason I applied to GB is because I love the guys there even though it may be a "step down" from big time television."
That makes it sound like he was trying to do an act of fucking charity.
I believe I said earlier that even if we found a "hypothetical suitable candidate" there would still be a "but..." Well, here we have it.
@truthtellah said:
@marokai: This is definitely part of what I was talking about in my recent thread about basic respect. To have a chance at co-existence and discussion, we establish basic levels of consideration and rules for being around others, and on Giant Bomb, those are embodied specifically in the rules and more generally in the underlying culture here. One of our continued challenges is when gender or social criticism are at all involved; things can quickly get out of hand and many otherwise decent folks show the worst that they can offer.
In this particular case, I do believe we would be remiss to not recognize that it has been relatively one-sided. I think it's reasonable for us to lament how out of hand things have been, and the overreacting here has made a lot of very little. A few people should be able to ask about diversity and not have things descend into what happened today. Clearly this is a real challenge for our community.
I definitely think it's impossible to seriously deny that there's been more aggression coming from one side than another throughout all this, and that's important to look into and sort out (and seriously, @rorie, you're a saint) but it's also very important for people to keep in mind that while the frustration and lashing out from the diversity "side" of this (I hate that this has been segmented into camps, now, when everyone seems to agree on like 95% of what's going on here) is understandable, it's still not helpful, or perhaps justifiable, to be lashing out at people regardless. It's just not positively contributing, no matter who you are.
I think something that frustrates me more than most other issues at play here is that, in the past, Samantha Allen has often accused people of trying to diminish her feelings by "tone policing" her. There is a certain warrior mindset going on that isn't lifting up the conversation very much. We need to understand that all of us, pro and anti, aren't being suffocated out of the conversation just because people are encouraging us to speak a little softer and not being violently angry all the time. We're just trying to get the conversation to inside-voice levels.
@joshwent said:
In any of these threads, a few asshole apples can ruin the bunch, and I've seen it happen more than less. And it's still a problem (obviously). But the folks here who remain after the ignorance smoke clears are all amazing, and although I'll never truly know any of you as people, my life has been undoubtedly enriched by this experience.
That's the real Giant Bomb "community".
So it really breaks my heart to see folks in the wider game's press berate us, but even more to see folks in these boards pushed away. I can ask them to try and look deeper. I can ask them to just disregard the obvious trolls. But I can also understand that those requests ring hollow when their preconceived notions get confirmed through clusterfucks like this.
What I really can do, though, is remain vigilant. Flag all arbitrarily hurtful posts. Engage and support those who feel marginalized. And even PM the "Trolls" to try and directly show them how their "fun" hurts us all.
I encourage all you beautiful duderinos to do the same.
When people look down on us, the response can't be hate, confirming all of their slander. It can only to be to show them exactly how horribly wrong they are.
I second this advice.
There are people here that I disagree with on many things, but I know they are genuine in their interest in discussion and care about this site. They often go that extra mile to actually engage even when I feel they may be misguided. There are many different people here, and as Giant Bomb has tried to grow, that diversity has grown with it. Unfortunately, factors remain to deter it and even push out many already here, and we cannot allow them to win. We cannot allow them to represent this community.
We must show more consideration and outreach than hate and dismissal. This is our little corner of the Internet, and we must continue to do more to make it the kind of environment for discussion and fun we desire it to be.
@sarisa: I actually can't tell if you are trolling or not either because you are seriously implying you can't be racist towards white people. You are correct on one count, reverse racism isn't real. Its just regular ass racism. I don't care what race it is towards, its the same thing and it sucks no matter who it is directed towards. Also, thanks for judging me based on a name when you know nothing about me.
@extomar said:
I take crap like this on the Internet as just that: Crap on the Internet. But l when I see posts from Jeff and Alex and other GB staff saying "STOP IT" things have gone too far. From the reaction just on the gb.com "complaint thread", I could tell there was probably some nasty crap slung on Twitter and on reddit that I don't even dare to go look at. Thankfully that thread was locked after it just became a sounding board for people to stroking their egos so they could complain some more to each other.
I thought we were talking about Giant Bomb specifically? I didn't see the "complaint thread", it must have been deleted rather than locked.
@counterclockwork87: Yeah, as @truthtellah wrote, if you are willing to weather the storm there are those willing to stand behind you. If it's too much for you that's understandable, duck out. Pick your battles, find out what works best for, and I wish you the best.
Shout out to @sarisa for being pretty cool.
@hugomonoqoly: Please stop being a jerk to Rorie. It is 10 PM, way after office hours, and he is still doing intensive and difficult work. Perhaps take a step back form the computer and take a deep breath.
@fiercedeity said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@fiercedeity said:
@counterclockwork87 said:
@cabbagesensei said:
One of my fears is if Giant Bomb decides to publicly talk about the applicants' demographics, and it's revealed that little to no minorities or women applied, some people will say "See! We were right." They will casually ignore that the tone and atmosphere created by some (vocal) people in this community might keep minorities and women from applying in the first place.
I'm a minortiy, 100 percent hispanic first generation American (just to give an example my father was born in the Dominican Republic). I applied to work at Giant Bomb as a producer and I must say I was incredibly qualified as I've worked in television as a producer on things WAY bigger than Giant Bomb for a few years now. While Drew and Vinny were going to E3 I was producing content at the GRAMMYs (not diminishing their work of course!). Only reason I applied to GB is because I love the guys there even though it may be a "step down" from big time television. All that said, and despite my really good resume/reel I knew I had no shot...I KNEW someone from the inner circle of game journos would get the job. Why did I apply then? Because for a second I thought Jeff really wanted FRESH BLOOD, I really thought he meant it. Kind of like when they make a new Superman movie and they ask people what do they want an established star or a fresh face...lots of times people ask for a fresh face which is why Brandon Routh and Henry Cavill got those roles. Sometimes you just want someone new and I thought maybe that's what Giant Bomb was looking for. I have no ill will towards the new hires, I actually quite like Dan Ryckert...but I still find Giant Bomb comes off badly making this hire out to be more than it was every going to be. They should've just hired Dan and Jason and never made their hiring practices public on the forums....I doubt this would be happening if they just did this like when they hired Patrick (even though he got his fair share of hate, it wasn't for this reason).
If you came across as being this condescending in your resume, I can see why they wouldn't have considered you. Or, they could have simply considered you overqualified.
Condescending? How could you even make a claim about a resume you never saw? Overqualified? I thought people were arguing that they wanted applicants with lots of experience. Which is it?
I make the claim based on what he wrote in his own damn post. Seriously, read it. If "I must say I was incredibly qualified as I've worked in television as a producer on things WAY bigger than Giant Bomb" doesn't come off as condescending, even if it wasn't intentional, I really don't know what to say. Fuck, look at
"Only reason I applied to GB is because I love the guys there even though it may be a "step down" from big time television."
That makes it sound like he was trying to do an act of fucking charity.
It's not that hard to understand what he was saying duder. He's saying he was willing to take a job that pays less for the opportunity to work along side people he respects and admires. That is hardly condescending.
Holy hot hell my eyes are glazing over reading every post through page 10 or so. I feel it's my duty as a member of this community who is proud to give back when I can to read through most every one but yeah, as it turns out, it's exhausting. Just to be clear I don't mean that to be a complaint about anything other than my brain sifting through that many posts on the subject. Speaking of complaints though, here's one: It is utterly despicable and crushing to see evidence of harassment that stems in one way or another from people who are associated or active fans of the site.
One theme I'm noticing among the responses is that many are emblematic of a cross-roads between values and etiquette. As far as what is viewed as problematic, the extreme side is one that violates norms of etiquette (threads, harassment, insults) and somewhere in the middle but disconcerting to some nonetheless is those who communicate civilly but whose values or perspective ultimately dismiss or seem to undermine the issue being considered as such. We can condemn the former without much issue but it's the latter that keeps the coals alight when the firebrands may or may not die down. Occasionally something catches and someone gets burned which is as before, tragic and frustrating. (Sorry for the extended metaphor, sometimes I do that without intending).
Also as always TruthTellah gives good insight.
@truthtellah said:
In this particular case, I do believe we would be remiss to not recognize that it has been relatively one-sided. I think it's reasonable for us to lament how out of hand things have been, and the overreacting here has made a lot of very little. A few people should be able to ask about diversity and not have things descend into what happened today. Clearly this is a real challenge for our community.
That latter bit is something I've been thinking about for a while now. What are we to do with the semi-regular blow-ups? It's entirely reasonable and part of the site culture to strike a balance amidst such touchy issues but with extreme reactions which directly and indirectly lead to threats and harassment toward staff and friends of the site how do we proceed? It happens to be that it's a good hedge to hire someone on staff who isn't a white male to really bring those who arguably don't belong here to the fore and make the message clear. But barring that, at least this time around, which I feel was a reasonable outcome despite the also reasonable reaction, is this discussion enough in and of itself? I don't think we could have gotten to Patrick's great presentation at PAX if it hadn't been for the steps Patrick and friends took to react and integrate such moments into the canon of GB's story so to speak. The best we can do in the short term is reach out or make it known in other ways that Giant Bomb should continue to be a place that accepts all kinds and the moment someone feels excluded, regardless of motivation or particular expression, that it should be something taken to heart.
Ultimately despite the apparent faults and outcomes, I believe GB will emerge stronger as a result of this. This is it, we don't have many more shots left as a community if this was the straw for a few women in the industry, and we'd do well to keep this one in mind.
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei: So I'm allowed to hit a random dude because some asshole made me mad?
You're still not explaining how saying that you wanted some else for a job is not hurtful. It's pretty hurtful if when people are picking teams and you get picked, but some of you teammates say "well I wanted Joe instead".
I think we can both agree that angry comments are very different than physical attacks.
And there's a big difference between the ideas of "I wish they had hired a woman and/or a minority" and "I wish they hadn't hired Jason and Dan."
How are they different? In response to both. How?
How does it not hurt you emotionally when some one insults you. Cyber bullying is based on hurting people emotionally. It's not different.
And there isn't a difference between saying "I wanted someone else" and "I didn't want you"
On the first point, even if someone insulted Jeff, Brad, or Drew, I'm sure they can stand by their decisions. They don't need a mob defending them.
On your second point, if humanity could be explained with simple logical statements, then we would live in a completely different world.
But it's still okay for her to insult them?
So, you're not going to even bother with that second point?
If we're going to go with simple logical statements, then no, it's not okay for anyone to insult anyone. By the transitive property, this means that it is not okay for an Internet mob to insult one person. If we want to bring some humanities into this math, then it's really, really, really, really, really not okay to send death and rape threats to a woman because of an insult to a games media outlet.
I think we're just going to have to disagree on the second point. I would say again that I think Dan and Jason are adult enough to move on with the sentiment of some people in the GB community. And I'm sure they will not get constant death and rape threats over their hiring from here on out.
I think this has all been a bit ridiculous, from both sides of the argument. One thing I would like to say though is, this whole thing seems slightly disrespectful to Dan and Jason. I realize most people aren't criticizing them directly, but I feel by criticizing the decision to hire them it makes it sound as if they weren't worthy of the selection. I just hope they don't feel that way. It would be a pretty shitty first day feeling.
One other thing. I know the new hires have not been ideal choices for some people, but from my point of view I'm happy to get whoever I can get at this point. This site has been losing people from the main office consistently for over a year now. The numbers were getting dangerously low. I can't help but feel extremely excited that we've finally gained staff instead of losing them.
Anyways, I think all this arguing back and forth is kind of crazy. I don't know if I've ever seen arguments on the internet settled with someone saying "oh, yeah, I guess I was wrong.". It seems like the best thing you can do is voice you're opinion, hope the staff members notice and take it into consideration for next time, and move on.
Diversity is important and I am disappointed that Giant Bomb isn't more diverse, but I think the guys (special props to Scoop and Alex) do better than most at shining a light on diversity through things like the Bombin' in the A.M. guests, year end guest lists, Worth Reading, etc. I really hope they continue strong on that front. I know Patrick has talked about getting a freelance budget and it would great to see more writing on the site. I'd love to see pieces from folks like Cara Ellison or Jenn Frank on the site.
I completely understand why some people are angry and/or disappointed in the lack of diversity at GB. I am disappointed too. At the same time Giant Bomb is a personality driven site and they need to be conscious of making sure the Bomb Crew mesh. That isn't to say that someone who is a woman or queer or non-white can't, but GB & CBSi had a hiring process and decided that the two people they hired were the best fit. Unfortunately it isn't doing much to help them out in the diversity front and I think criticizing the lack of diversity at Giant Bomb is completely fair game.
I was incredibly disappointed when I got off work and saw some of the things that were being said by people claiming to represent the GB community or GB fans. People have the right to criticized anything they want. That does not mean they are immune from having their criticism rebuffed and critiques itself, but personally attacking those speaking out is not that and is just a shitty thing to do to someone.
Also, I don't want to hear any more of this "most qualified" shit. Things we don't know A) who applied B) who was interviewed C) what the qualifications these mysterious applicants had. Even if we could know, it is dumb to assume people are asking GB to hire someone to be the token diversity stand-in and acting like they somehow have less merit than a straight, white make candidate. I understand this is not how someone of you intend to have it perceived, but instead is how it is sometimes perceived and perpetuates gender bias in hiring practices.
I'm sorry if this sounds rambling, incoherent and/or angry. I've had some pretty strong emotions stirred up as a result of everything that has happened today as someone who has tried to be a part of the GB community (long time lurker!) but never really felt comfortable in doing so.
@fiercedeity said:
@sarisa said:
@fluttercry: I can't tell if you're trolling or legitimately asking this but here we go!
Saying that diversity of experiences, interests, socioeconomic status, whatever among a bunch of (very very likely cishet) white dudes is not the same as diversity among a group of different-gender/orientation/race/etc. folx is not the same as saying "oh yeah all white people are the same."
Also, re: RACISM AGAINST WHITE PPL generally: http://feminspire.com/why-reverse-racism-isnt-real/ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
This why there's a backlash against SJWs every time. Your 'people can't be racist against white people' spiel is an absurd attempt at redefining words and terminology, and will never be accepted outside the internet.
I really don't like seeing the term SJW on this site. It feels like an easy way to dismiss someone with a pejorative. If you have a beef with someone, please stick to criticizing their ideas and not simply applying labels to them.
@sarisa said:
@fluttercry: I can't tell if you're trolling or legitimately asking this but here we go!
Saying that diversity of experiences, interests, socioeconomic status, whatever among a bunch of (very very likely cishet) white dudes is not the same as diversity among a group of different-gender/orientation/race/etc. folx is not the same as saying "oh yeah all white people are the same."
Also, re: RACISM AGAINST WHITE PPL generally: http://feminspire.com/why-reverse-racism-isnt-real/ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
When someone told me what cishet meant I was led to believe it was a slur. That paired with your articles about why racism doesn't exist against a specific race leads me to believe that you are being kind of a bigot exhibiting prejudiced behavior.
Edited in accordance with Rorie's above wishes. (Though I disagree with the fact that he called out a response to this post rather than this post itself (although thank you for all of your hard work tonight @rorie))
I'd like to just put this all out here as hopefully constructive feedback amid all of the debating and discussing. I know that some other community members share at least some of these thoughts as well and have stated them as such.
- I have nothing against Dan or Jason. I'm sure that they were quality hires and I'm interested to see what they bring to the site.
- However, I do have to say that I would have personally liked to have seen hires that weren't already so entrenched in the established "upper tier" of the field, as it were. Diversity of race or gender aside, my primary hope was to see some truly fresh blood in Giant Bomb's ranks that could bring new perspectives, rather than just snagging big names from another site. I've railed against the incestuous nature of the game journalism field in the past and it still holds true here. It's particularly awkward given that it feels, more or less, like Dan and Jason got rolodexed into their new positions. I know that they in all likelihood earned their positions through the interview process, but still, it's a feeling that is there.
- The way that the new hires were kept an obfuscated mystery did nothing to help this situation. I know that the staff probably got a good laugh out of the month and change of people trying to puzzle out who the new hires were, but it also built up a lot of expectations. I imagine more than a few had those expectations completely deflated, and thus the less-than-positive reaction from some corners. I mean, people were going to be disappointed regardless, but it wouldn't have hurt to not turn the whole thing into a gag that ran for as long as it did.
- Whatever response the staff crafts, I hope that you will keep the community informed of the progress. Knowing you, I'm sure that won't be a problem, but even so, it would be nice to stay informed as progress is made.
Thanks!
@cabbagesensei said:
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei: So I'm allowed to hit a random dude because some asshole made me mad?
You're still not explaining how saying that you wanted some else for a job is not hurtful. It's pretty hurtful if when people are picking teams and you get picked, but some of you teammates say "well I wanted Joe instead".
I think we can both agree that angry comments are very different than physical attacks.
And there's a big difference between the ideas of "I wish they had hired a woman and/or a minority" and "I wish they hadn't hired Jason and Dan."
How are they different? In response to both. How?
How does it not hurt you emotionally when some one insults you. Cyber bullying is based on hurting people emotionally. It's not different.
And there isn't a difference between saying "I wanted someone else" and "I didn't want you"
On the first point, even if someone insulted Jeff, Brad, or Drew, I'm sure they can stand by their decisions. They don't need a mob defending them.
On your second point, if humanity could be explained with simple logical statements, then we would live in a completely different world.
But it's still okay for her to insult them?
So, you're not going to even bother with that second point?
If we're going to go with simple logical statements, then no, it's not okay for anyone to insult anyone. By the transitive property, this means that it is not okay for an Internet mob to insult one person. If we want to bring some humanities into this math, then it's really, really, really, really, really not okay to send death and rape threats to a woman because of an insult to a games media outlet.
I think we're just going to have to disagree on the second point. I would say again that I think Dan and Jason are adult enough to move on with the sentiment of some people in the GB community. And I'm sure they will not get constant death and rape threats over their hiring from here on out.
What are you even talking about now? I didn't say it was okay for the mob to jump on her, or anyone else. It doesn't make what she said any less wrong.
Just because people don't give a shit what you say about them doesn't mean it's okay to just insult them.
@plan6 said:
@spaceinsomniac said:
@xchairmandrekx said:
@tom_scherschel said:
I have to log off for the evening but I wanted to commend @rorie for stating a position on this issue and doing what he can to keep things nice around here. Between him and @patrickklepek, whose position on these issues is unimpeachable, I feel like the site is moving in the right direction. Still. Everybody knows that if this site is a family then Jeff is the Dad and things are at a point here where Dad needs to step in and throw down, one way or the other. His continued silence on issues like this is not helping this community.
You are really sounding like you'd nothing more than to turn these discussions into echo-chambers. Calling Patrick's stance on these issues "Unimpeachable" is quite the statement. Patrick has clearly made mistakes in the past, he even apologized for the whole "Threes" fiasco when he called out the developer of 2048. There are extremists on both sides, as well as people making level-headed arguments on both sides. The people insulting others on twitter and here on the fourms who are using racist, or sexist slurs are fucking awful, no doubt but that does not give one the excuse to silence rational debate entirely.
Patrick has repeatedly used this website to promote the work of a woman who has publicly admitted to hating all men by default.
Clearly, his stance on gender issues is "unimpeachable."
So she wrote some stuff that offends you, what does that matter? Do you only want a site that promotes opinions that you agree with? You don't have to be here and if you are, you don't even need to read everything that people write. You are free to disagree.
And Patrick's stance on sexism and gender is unimpeachable. He is an all around good guy.
I'm fine with her outrage over the GB hires, and while I think telling someone to fuck off isn't the best way to handle criticism of that issue, I don't find it morally reprehensible. But I do find the personal attacks and threats she's getting to be morally reprehensible.
I also find white supremacy to be reprehensible.
I find the hatred of women as a default to be reprehensible.
I find hating Jews as a default to be reprehensible.
I find hating white people as a default to be reprehensible.
I find hating Muslims as a default to be reprehensible.
I find hating men as a default to be reprehensible.
All of this is hate and bigotry, and it goes far beyond "You are free to disagree."
If a gaming journalist on another website was giving a voice to a self-admitted misogynist or white supremacist, I'm seriously doubtful that you would be saying "So he wrote some stuff that offends you, what does that matter? Do you only want a site that promotes opinions that you agree with?"
And before you say "well, that's different, because men aren't oppressed," think about a black person who proudly admits to hating every single white person they meet, categorizing, generalizing, and distrusting them all by the color of their flesh, associating them all with everything that is wrong in the world, and admitting that they have a few white friends, but only those who completely agree with them, and agree with their hatred, generalization, and distrust of white people.
Are you going to tell me that wouldn't be an example of bigotry?
@rorie said:
@fiercedeity said:
@sarisa said:
@fluttercry: I can't tell if you're trolling or legitimately asking this but here we go!
Saying that diversity of experiences, interests, socioeconomic status, whatever among a bunch of (very very likely cishet) white dudes is not the same as diversity among a group of different-gender/orientation/race/etc. folx is not the same as saying "oh yeah all white people are the same."
Also, re: RACISM AGAINST WHITE PPL generally: http://feminspire.com/why-reverse-racism-isnt-real/ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
This why there's a backlash against SJWs every time. Your 'people can't be racist against white people' spiel is an absurd attempt at redefining words and terminology, and will never be accepted outside the internet.
I really don't like seeing the term SJW on this site. It feels like an easy way to dismiss someone with a pejorative. If you have a beef with someone, please stick to criticizing their ideas and not simply applying labels to them.
Strikingly similar feel to "typical cishet gamer dudes."
Ad hominem for everybody!
@gilbert64 said:
The hate train came from a reddit men's right subreddit. It's unfortunate that giant bomb and its community is being associated with them.
This is a cop out. There are plenty of GBCommunity members who said deplorable crap on the forums.
I am not disappointed in the lack of diversity in Giant Bomb, I am disappointed with the lack of diversity/representation in the video game industry.
I highly doubt that anybody considered for the formerly vacant positions in Giant Bomb was given preference or lost preference due to their gender/sexual orientation/political view/etc./etc.
@syz said:
@rorie said:
@fiercedeity said:
@sarisa said:
@fluttercry: I can't tell if you're trolling or legitimately asking this but here we go!
Saying that diversity of experiences, interests, socioeconomic status, whatever among a bunch of (very very likely cishet) white dudes is not the same as diversity among a group of different-gender/orientation/race/etc. folx is not the same as saying "oh yeah all white people are the same."
Also, re: RACISM AGAINST WHITE PPL generally: http://feminspire.com/why-reverse-racism-isnt-real/ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
This why there's a backlash against SJWs every time. Your 'people can't be racist against white people' spiel is an absurd attempt at redefining words and terminology, and will never be accepted outside the internet.
I really don't like seeing the term SJW on this site. It feels like an easy way to dismiss someone with a pejorative. If you have a beef with someone, please stick to criticizing their ideas and not simply applying labels to them.
Strikingly similar feel to "typical cishet gamer dudes."
Ad hominem for everybody!
I'm not going to defend the bulk of that statement, but so far as I know, cishet is a rather technical description of a certain gender association. I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
@chaser324 said:
@truthtellah: Us mods do our best to allow people to openly and honestly voice their opinions and engage in civil debate, but maintaining a balance between that openness and moderation is a difficult one. We never want to lock threads or discourage discussion, but we're a small team and at times it's an option that we exercise.
If there's one thing that I hope is clear though, it is that we are listening and want to do whatever we can to improve the community and make it a place where healthy and productive discussion can be had - a place where someone can civilly and respectfully express an opinion without fear of malicious retaliation. I assure you that it pains the moderators as much as anyone to see the Giant Bomb community described throughout the internet as "toxic", and I assure you that we take the issue very seriously. I can't speak for other mods, but I honestly view it as something of a personal failure to see that negative attitude and option being expressed about the GB community - a community that means a lot to mean, a community that I know to be predominantly great with the potential to be even better.
Events in recent years have made it evident that proactive changes are likely necessary to improve the quality of discussion, and while we've had ongoing discussions about it for quite a while, I can assure you that we're more serious than ever about making changes in the wake of some very disappointing E3 chats and statements that have been posted today.
As always, please continue to flag posts that you think require moderation - with the volume of posts being made, I can't express enough how helpful this is to us. In extreme cases that require immediate action, don't hesitate to send the mods a PM.
Also, if you would like to make more specific comments about ways that we might be able to improve moderation or other aspects of the community, please drop us a line and let us know. We're open to hearing all suggestions and opinions.
If I may offer one suggestion, would it hurt if the moderators were as a whole more active in the community? I understand that this might sound odd as a request, but I honestly don't know who all of the moderators are at this point. Some I thought had left long ago, only to realize very recently that they were still here. I think that greater community interaction would also help the approachability of the moderators in general; greater visibility and such. I know that there's at least one or two moderators that I'm constantly hesitant to engage with because they don't feel very approachable and concerns I've levied with them tend to get brushed off.
@fiercedeity said:
@sarisa said:
@fluttercry: I can't tell if you're trolling or legitimately asking this but here we go!
Saying that diversity of experiences, interests, socioeconomic status, whatever among a bunch of (very very likely cishet) white dudes is not the same as diversity among a group of different-gender/orientation/race/etc. folx is not the same as saying "oh yeah all white people are the same."
Also, re: RACISM AGAINST WHITE PPL generally: http://feminspire.com/why-reverse-racism-isnt-real/ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
This why there's a backlash against SJWs every time. Your 'people can't be racist against white people' spiel is an absurd attempt at redefining words and terminology, and will never be accepted outside the internet.
Every university course I have taken that tackles diversity, whether its Sociology, Political Science, English, Geography, or, hell, even Computer Science courses, have gone into great detail on why "reverse racism" isn't relevant or real.
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei said:
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei: So I'm allowed to hit a random dude because some asshole made me mad?
You're still not explaining how saying that you wanted some else for a job is not hurtful. It's pretty hurtful if when people are picking teams and you get picked, but some of you teammates say "well I wanted Joe instead".
I think we can both agree that angry comments are very different than physical attacks.
And there's a big difference between the ideas of "I wish they had hired a woman and/or a minority" and "I wish they hadn't hired Jason and Dan."
How are they different? In response to both. How?
How does it not hurt you emotionally when some one insults you. Cyber bullying is based on hurting people emotionally. It's not different.
And there isn't a difference between saying "I wanted someone else" and "I didn't want you"
On the first point, even if someone insulted Jeff, Brad, or Drew, I'm sure they can stand by their decisions. They don't need a mob defending them.
On your second point, if humanity could be explained with simple logical statements, then we would live in a completely different world.
But it's still okay for her to insult them?
So, you're not going to even bother with that second point?
If we're going to go with simple logical statements, then no, it's not okay for anyone to insult anyone. By the transitive property, this means that it is not okay for an Internet mob to insult one person. If we want to bring some humanities into this math, then it's really, really, really, really, really not okay to send death and rape threats to a woman because of an insult to a games media outlet.
I think we're just going to have to disagree on the second point. I would say again that I think Dan and Jason are adult enough to move on with the sentiment of some people in the GB community. And I'm sure they will not get constant death and rape threats over their hiring from here on out.
What are you even talking about now? I didn't say it was okay for the mob to jump on her, or anyone else. It doesn't make what she said any less wrong.
Just because people don't give a shit what you say about them doesn't mean it's okay to just insult them.
In the very beginning you asked:
So she can shit on Jeff, Brad and Drew because some shitlords fucking hate women and love to tell them that?
At some point I said that yes, she can. Because... she can. Is it wrong for her to do so? Well, as much as anyone is wrong to be mean to someone else. But if we can all agree that there will never be a world were we don't insult each other from time to time, I don't know how Leigh is any "worse" than any of us when we insult someone.
@rorie: Can I just say you are a saint for putting up with all this, and you really earned your paycheck today.
I just want to say that what you're doing is pretty rad, @rorie. Thanks.
@rorie: Maybe I was misled, but I was told that it was a combination of the word cis and het(ero sexual) used as a pejorative and pronounced sis-shit.
@devoureroftime: Whether that specific term itself is real or not is immaterial anyway. The simple truth remains: You shouldn't pre-judge or be dismissive of individuals in any way based on something as shallow as sex, orientation, or skin color. Including the lack thereof. It's hateful and doesn't help the conversation in any way.
Maybe this isn't the website for me.
@cabbagesensei: Now you're just excusing it because "everyone does it"
@fiercedeity: maybe I'm a dolt or a simpleton but maybe we should drop the term "reverse racism." Why? Because if we hate/judge someone based on the color of their skin it is racism. "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior."
Was not even aware there was a controversy until this flared up on Twitter. And over something so stupid.
It is a small site that is driven by a few personalities and not the news flow (more so before Patrick, but still), so hiring is made on that basis. Plus, I have never seen any hateful or bigoted behavior from the GB staff so I'm very doubtful there is a "No Girls Allowed" policy in place.
Wouldn't it be better to reserve your judgment for the content that the GB staff puts out? I follow GB simply because I like the content. A large part of that has to do with the personalities of the editors, but not particularly because they are white, male, Californians or whatever.
(although if by some chance you institute a silly and utterly misguided affirmative action policy hire me pleeeeeeeeeease)
@hunter5024 said:
@rorie: Maybe I was misled, but I was told that it was a combination of the word cis and het(ero sexual) used as a pejorative and pronounced sis-shit.
I've never heard it pronounced that way, and while I have very rarely heard it used slightly pejoratively for the most part it is a technical term.
Now that things have cooled down a bit I want to make this post my final thoughts on the matter and clarify some things that I've said earlier. First off, I crossed the line earlier when I called out another user and told them to go fuck themselves and that they were privileged assholes - I'm not quite sure if this person was part of the community or just someone who came into the fold while all of this was happening from the outside, but a few things they said directed at me got at me and caused me to call them out. I was wrong to do that and I don't hold any hard feelings towards anybody on here despite how heated things get sometimes. I also made a comment in another thread mentioning "diversity crazies", what I meant by that wasn't calling out people criticizing lack of diversity, but more calling out the handful of people that went apeshit and accused Jeff and the rest of the staff of bigotry, racism, and sexism simply because they happened to hire 2 white dudes.
Which brings me to my next point, I don't think the staff had any ill-intent at all. I truly believe that they hired the best and most qualified candidates for the job. Throughout the years the Giant Bomb staff has shown nothing but respect for their peers in the industry regardless of their gender, political, or sexual preferences. Insinuating that they specifically hired 2 white guys because they are white guys so they could stomp out dissenting opinions is just beyond insulting and ridiculous.
What Giant Bomb does here is a very niche style of game coverage and the site is heavily focused on on-air personalities and it's those personalities that make this site great. Without a certain chemistry between the staff - and most importantly between the staff and the audience - that ceases to exist. This isn't a site like Polygon where everything is an editorial or a news report on the games industry - this is a site first and foremost about making videos of people playing and talking about video games. Down the line would it be great to have a woman on staff or someone who wasn't a "straight white dude"? Yeah, that would be awesome and I welcome it. But right now, I don't think that is their primary concern. They seem to be preoccupied with just doing what they can to keep the lights on and making what video and podcast content they can crank out. That's a tall order for a staff of only 8 people.
I'm all for diversity here on Giant Bomb, but I don't think that you should just add whoever just for the sake of being diverse. To me that kind of takes away what makes it so important. You know what's worse than not having a woman, gay guy, or black guy on the site? Having a token women, gay guy, or black guy on the site just because.
In the end it's the decisions of the staff that determine who they hire and what content they produce. Criticism is welcome, but when it gets to the point that you are so incensed by it that you have to attack them or attack others on the site for supporting it, I think it would be best if you leave the site. There are dozens of other gamings sites and forums out there and literally thousands of YouTube gaming channels that would be happy to have you.
So that's it. I'm done. Sorry if I said things that went over the line before, I truly don't mean anything by it. Just some good old-fashioned Internet Drama.
@jamessmarion said:
Maybe this isn't the website for me.
What would make you think that?
@counterclockwork87: Don't let the negative shit get to ya duder. We definitely want you here as part of this family!
So........
I don't want to start a new thread over this, but can we (as a community) get together and try to send some sort of nice gesture to Samantha Allen for the shit she went through today? Like some kind of thing to show our apology for a couple of dickheads that exist (from the forums and from 4chan)?
I hate how the people that are being blamed are the "Giant Bomb community" when I know that our community is filled with amazing generous people.
I completely disagree with her just about 100% of the time, but I feel truly sorry for what she had to go through today and I think the community can come up with something to show our condolences.
@wienerless_steve said:
@cabbagesensei: Now you're just excusing it because "everyone does it"
Okay, you've truly lost me. What are we talking about again? The fact that people insult each other sometimes?
@rorie: I hope you get a raise.
+1.
I may have mentioned this in an earlier thread today but my hope from all this is some sort of formal response from the GB dudes. And not just Patrick. Whether anyone realizes it or not, the Giant Bomb community is a direct reflection of the ideals of the Giant Bomb staff. When you stay silent on things like this, people are going to fill in that silence themselves and interpret it however they want. I get why Jeff and most of the other guys take a "stay out of it" stance with stuff like this and that's their right. But if you want the community to be less "toxic" or whatever, you need to speak out.
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment