Commentary on GB Hiring

@turboman said:

Fuck yeah, this. +1

I think that's ideal for judging if Dan and Jason will be good additions but the overall conversation wonders more about if other, more varied and diverse, applicants were given a chance. And if not, why not.

A lot of the controversy comes from someone voicing a critique and those who attacked them terribly. People should be able to openly voice their opinions without being attacked. Also we should be able to have this discussion, like we're having on this thread, with ease and not with constant moderation.

@cabbagesensei: The fact that it's okay to be hateful to innocent people because of a group of disgusting people were hateful towards you.

I agree and I think this is why this has become such a big thing.

A big part of the blame for this lies on whoever decided it would be a good idea to broadcast that Giant Bomb was hiring on the forums. I get the feeling a lot of users applied with the illusion of maybe having a chance at the job and were crushed when they found out that they never had a chance. Everyone knows that it is crazy hard to get a job doing what these guys do, especially now days with all the lay offs that happen. It seems like a lot of people just bounce from one site to another (like Rorie used to, or like Mikel Reparez has been ever since getting shit canned from GamesRadar). However, that thread gave the impression that this was an opportunity to join the industry of video game coverage if you were on the outside. You built them up and then let them down, buttercup.

A great idea! :D

I wouldn't say that the entire community is innocent but I really like the idea of doing something to show her the community, at the very least, has a very good portion to it. There's something worth fighting for here that's for certain.

Maybe this? Everyone could send her like a dollar to the same place? We'd only need like 20 people to do it. It's not much, but I would be pretty stoked if the internet bought me dinner. Although maybe 20 1 dollar certificates would be kind of a pain in the ass to use.

Edit: Ehh looks like its just a New York thing. Oh well.

I would happily participate in something like that. I genuinely wish for her to understand that even if we disagree with her ideas, we should be able to support and respect her as a person.

I would, but seeing her blog post about how she basically hates all men by default and thinks they're generally all bad people kinda made me stop feeling bad for her completely. She doesn't get my sympathy. I don't condone what they did to her, but i don't feel bad about it either after reading her true thoughts about men, she might be the most sexist person i can name off the top of my head. It's disgusting.

I trust you guys to do what's right for you guys, hire whoever you like.

I'm working on something but I want to make sure that whatever I write is looked over by other staff members before I post it. Throwing gasoline on a fire is not going to help anyone at this point. Hopefully it'll go up tomorrow.

Avoid the bad threads like this one and it can be pretty great. Don't get involved in the awful stuff certain folks seem to get involved in and you can have a good time on GB. I sure do. There's bad apples in every community. GB is no different.

And with that, I am done reading this thread. Keep up the good work, @rorie, you're doing a great job!

...[W]e should hire based on merit, and not gender.

Friend, I'll be honest: Every time I hear this phrase uttered anew, my brain explodes. The unfortunate — and unintended, I know! — insinuation being made here is that "merit" and "gender" (or "race," or "sexual orientation" or whatever) are somehow mutually exclusive. Yikes! Instead of letting people own their personal achievements, we perhaps suspect them of being hired according to some mysterious "quota." Yikes again!

No one is saying "hire a woman instead of a competent, qualified person." Yikes, yikes, yikes!

- Jenn Frank, The Rolodex

Maybe a video compilation of all of us in some fashion? I don't know what that would constitute outside "This is not Giant Bomb", but it's worth a shot.

@rorie: I look forward to whatever you're going to write. Thanks for keeping this place as civil as possible. I, along with a ton of others, really appreciate what you do.

While I've got nothing against the new guys and I'm so excited to hear more from them, I was really hoping for a woman.

And today marks the 'Most Uncomfortable/Unwelcome' that the community has ever felt to me. Really disappointed in the behavior and bummed that I was right to be wary of the fans of a website that I love as much as I do.

Really, really bummed out.

You've been right about a lot of things milkman, but never moreso than this right here.

Tomorrow may be one of the most important days in this site's history. This is a crisis and they have to act decisively to save their reputation, fair or not.

@rorie: Rad. Thanks for all your hard work today, Rorie. (And all the other days too.)

I think that gets into some bigger issues about power dynamics. That's a tough one to address without getting woefully off topic, but, as an aside, I do think we have to consider the factors which lead to our personal standards of discussion. Historically, there is reason to believe that the powerful(or privileged) have been the ones who primarily define reasonable expression, and that means there may be inherent parts of such standards which limit the weak, oppressed, or wronged from effectively expressing themselves. Thus an impetus amongst many to not limit themselves to such standards when personally expressing feelings on oppressive factors.

Yet, that's somewhat different from what we're doing here. Coming together on a forum, in community, to interact and discuss things. The act of coming here and engaging with people means you are taking part in the rules and culture here. So, as you said, it's natural for us to encourage civil discourse. When the point is not to just be making statements but directly engage with fellow members, it makes sense for us to encourage standards amongst ourselves to help everyone be able to discuss things on a similar playing field.

In talking here, effectiveness must be a factor, as the intent is to talk to one another and not just talk at them. We -can- do better in this, and while things have improved in some ways, instances like this make it clearer that we still have a lot to overcome. I'm encouraged that it seems to have gotten the staff and mods' attention, and hopefully we can continue to work together to improve discussion of more challenging topics around here.

@cabbagesensei: I'm going to disagree with you. If a colleague came up to me and said they were disappointed that the position I was occupying at the company wasn't filled by somebody else, they've pretty much told me they're disappointed that I am the one in that position. It's great that you wouldn't feel that way, but don't expect everyone to feel the same way.

The assumption that we didn't give everyone who applied (well over 1,000 people combined between the two positions) a look is honestly insulting. I don't know where you got the idea that applicants "never had a chance," but I assure you that it's misleading at best.

@clonedzero: That may be so, but even if she's an intolerant person who I don't like, Id like to show that the community isn't the dickheads that people claimed we were today.

I think we can all agree that:
A. Jeff is not, nor is anyone else on the staff, racist or sexist, or has any wish for a specific demographic to be kept out of the gaming press.

B. Dan and Jason are two experienced individuals in the style of content Giant Bomb produces.

Simply put, it follows that they hired two individuals who they believe give them the greatest opportunity to produce good content, and thus generate more subscriptions and ad revenue, and thus remain a viable property for CBSi. If Giant Bomb ever goes under (God forbid), it's Jeff, Brad, Drew, etc. who will be out of work, not me, nor anyone else criticizing their hiring decisions.

Again, it's not okay. But Leigh responded that way. So... that's it.

... and so were moron, idiot, retarded, etc. I honestly have no clue if it's a technical term and/or commonly used in a derogatory manner, but being a "technical description" is apparently not enough to keep a word acceptable (if history is a good indicator) in spite of being used predominantly as an insult.

@turboman: That is a fanatic idea. Not sure what we should do though. Maybe this does warrant another thread or something so we could organize ideas.

That would imply the the GB community is somehow responsible. She posted something on a public forum and a portion of the public reacted violently. Not to say she deserved that but it is no fault of this forum. People somehow forget daily what twitter is like. Posting racially or sexually charged tweets often elicits intense responses, especially when people feel like someone is trying to force their ideals on something they care about. If you wish to give your condolences so be it but the community is not at fault.

@cabbagesensei: So, you're saying it's okay then?

this is a solid idea. any more?

I dunno, a donation to the charity of her choice?

@rorie: Some people on the forums have been operating under the assumption that Dan and Jason were "the guys" from the start and the public job posting was just done for legal reasons. I don't believe that myself for one second, but that's what some people truly think. That despite appearances and the application process, the hires were already chosen.

This is the most intelligent and precise post I've seen the entire day. Just post this on the front page of Giant Bomb.

@trilogy said:

Well it's nice to be used as a benchmark for ignorance. Here's what I was saying for those who couldn't understand it: Those are the two groups of people who are fighting each other on twitter. THOSE ARE NOT THE ONLY TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE THAT EXIST. I can say there are two sides in something and not be making a generalized statement about the entire human race. If you are not in one of those two groups then you are not one of the people I was talking about.

I don't know man, historically and collectively we're pretty bad. I'm not saying we should hate ourselves and jump off a bridge in unison, but to not understand the perspective that men have done a lot of damage ignores a lot of reality in this world.

@turboman: Is there some kind of e-card that people could sign?

As someone who goes to a very liberal university and hangs out with a bunch of people who spend a lot of time on tumblr, I'm basically on the cutting edge of uses of the word cishet, and it almost never used pejoratively.

Also, let's be realistic here. Television work is way more prestigious in the real world than a niche videogame website. It might've even impacted his career negatively.

I literally just wrote that it wasn't.

@cabbagesensei: Then what are you saying?

Giant Bomb isn't responsible for Samantha Allen receiving hateful messages any more than Giant Bomb was responsible for Patrick being mocked when his father died.

This stuff happens everywhere you find anonymous places to express yourself and it is often horrible. There are some disturbed people in the world and we cheapen our dialogue when we place their views on a pedestal and let them control the dicussion.

I'm curious by all this diaglogue. Are minorities now defined as "Women, LGBT, and ethnic people?" If so, there's a handful of even smaller backgrounds(for which I'm a part of) that gets entirely buried beneath such a blanket statement. I've been flat out told that I can't be hired only because of my life situation.

It is how it comes off, at least to me anyway. That said, I have loved everything you have done since Screened and my heart cracked a little knowing I have insulted you. :'(

You're right, I can do better. I was trying to speak in general terms, but it did come off as dismissive, and for that i apologize.

Now,I might have spend the whole night without getting any sleep, but at least i sure as hell know all about women in gaming press, previous drama and learned a few new subreddits that i'll never visit again. Next time i really should choose sleep instead.

i never seen any agenda with the hiring. been following giant bomb since it was a blog and i know they just want to put out a cool product. i hope this doesnt cause giant bomb to collapse with the drama :(

I think that gets into some bigger issues about power dynamics. That's a tough one to address without getting woefully off topic, but, as an aside, I do think we have to consider the factors which lead to our personal standards of discussion. Historically, there is reason to believe that the powerful(or privileged) have been the ones who primarily define reasonable expression, and that means there may be inherent parts of such standards which limit the weak, oppressed, or wronged from effectively expressing themselves. Thus an impetus amongst many to not limit themselves to such standards when personally expressing feelings on oppressive factors.

Yet, that's somewhat different from what we're doing here. Coming together on a forum, in community, to interact and discuss things. The act of coming here and engaging with people means you are taking part in the rules and culture here. So, as you said, it's natural for us to encourage civil discourse. When the point is not to just be making statements but directly engage with fellow members, it makes sense for us to encourage standards amongst ourselves to help everyone be able to discuss things on a similar playing field.

In talking here, effectiveness must be a factor, as the intent is to talk to one another and not just talk at them. We -can- do better in this, and while things have improved in some ways, instances like this make it clearer that we still have a lot to overcome. I'm encouraged that it seems to have gotten the staff and mods' attention, and hopefully we can continue to work together to improve discussion of more challenging topics around here.

@jadegl: Many sound points were made and I'm starting to have a clearer understanding of what your position is like.

As for your bit about representation in games specifically, you may be hesitant to believe it but I feel the same way. I feel an unnatural giddiness when a video game takes the time to introduce a Native protagonist. It's why I love Turok: Dinosaur Hunter and Turok 2. It's a big reason why I bought and played the Turok reboot from 2009 despite its iffy quality. Prey was also something I gave a shot solely because it featured a protagonist that I could look at and see myself in. Assassin's Creed 3 is the last one I can think of, and all of these games I enjoyed to varying degrees (AC3 is aces tho').

I think the part where I differ from most people asking for more representation of x group is in that I don't think I expect more Native protagonists. The way I see it, if a studio wants to tell a story about a Native person I'm more than happy to support them by buying and playing it, but where I start scratching my head is when some requests are spoken like outright demands. I'm not "tone policing" I don't think, but I wonder if maybe that's not a fault in my thinking. That I treat the super rare occurence where I play as someone who looks like me and comes from a similar heritage and upbringing (RPGs with character editors notwithstanding, natch) as a treat as opposed to the norm - is that a personal failing? Should I be expecting more? Right now I don't think so. Knowing the demographics involved I'm glad that I've seen and enjoyed as many games with Native protagonists as I have. Just as an aside really, but do you feel that same strange attachment to game protagonists that look like you?

And I think what I was trying to say in making the odd comparison between my experience with racism and death/rape threats online, was that I wonder if it's unfair to expect people to learn how to shrug it off in the same manner I did. I'm leaning toward "yes" right now, because I hadn't considered that in this social media era that people are far more forthcoming with their personal information than they have been in years past. I hadn't considered how easy it was to find out who someone is or where they live because I've never had the interest in finding out. You're right. You do need to take that kind of stuff seriously, especially when doxxing is so easy to do and all it takes is for one nasty bastard with a grudge to pull it off.

Food for thought at least. I'll need to think on all of this some more and see if I can't widen my perspective a bit.

Fuck it, I'm just gonna be blunt about this. Part of me is thinking "Hey it's their site they do what they want, whatever, blah blah political correctness" although the other part of me is thinking "Why is it only white dudes?" Even In Living Color at least had Jim Carrey. Jokingly, part of me thinks the site should be renamed to whitedudesthoughtsaboutvideogames.com

I'm not saying that anyone's racist, but can they really not find anyone that's not a white dude? To me at least, it looks kind of messed up.

@hailinel: That makes zero sense. If Jason and Dan were going to be hired from the start then why bother posting about the job openings at all. I see no legal reason why they had to tell us about the open positions in the first place.

*Note: I'm just posing this as a question. I am aware that this is not your belief.