Game developer states PS3 is NOT more powerful than 360.

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oldschool

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#1  Edited By oldschool
(from vgchartz)

Sony has said that the PlayStation 3 has more power than Microsoft's Xbox 360, but that it requires a bit of patience and legwork to leverage that power. Jason Booth, a game developer , just doesn't see it happening. He thinks game designers are trying to match PS3 games to 360 games at best.

Jason Booth, a game developer who has worked on both Guitar Hero games and Rock Band, has posted some interesting comments on his blog regarding "PS3 misconceptions and spin."

"I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the PS3. They often mention how the PS3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin... ports to the PS3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and ...most PS3 exclusives will likely continue to suck," he says.

First and foremost, Booth doesn't think PS3 really has a graphical advantage. Why? "Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance," he says. "Additionally, the shader processing on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the PS3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power."

He also suggests that Blu-ray is not really an advantage: "[It's] great for watching movies, but not so great for games. Getting data off the Blu-ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive. That translates into longer load times, or god forbid if you're streaming from disk, tighter constraints on the amount of data you can stream."

He acknowledges that with the greater storage space of Blu-ray "there is the potential to use that to do something cool," but he argues that "most developers who use the entire Blu-ray drive are doing it to work around other problems with the PS3 such as its slow loading."

He adds, "For instance, in Resistance: Fall of Man, every art asset is stored on disk once for every level that uses it. So rather than storing one copy of a texture, you're storing it 12 times. If you took that entire game and removed all the duplicate data, it would likely fit on a DVD without any problem."

Ultimately, Booth says "the performance centric research into the PS3 has been around making it easier for developers to get the same level of performance you get out of the 360 naturally... developers must spend significantly more time and resources getting the PS3 to do what the 360 can already do easily and with a lot less code... On top of this, there is shrinking incentive to do this work; the PS3 isn't selling."

Whether these comments can be taken at face value is up to you; Booth adds at the end of his post that his remarks "might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches." It's an interesting perspective nonetheless.



I have a 360, not a PS3.  I only have the 360 for the games.  I have firmly believed that the PS3 is much, much better as a piece of hardware, but this does make you think a little - did I just buy into the repeated message?  Still, at least the PS3 does die on a regular basis - that has to be worth something.

I am sure you technically minded people will have a view on this - so go for it.
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AgentJ

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#2  Edited By AgentJ

I could believe this, since the PS3s use Blu-Ray yet still dont seem to really out-do the 360. If true, this is embarassing for Sony, who had an extra year and charged twice as much for their console.

The PS3 is starting to sell in Japan thanks to the Final Fantasy XIII demo, but it obviously wont have that advantage in America. Frankly, I think Sony is in trouble, if not just because the only must-have game (in my eyes) is Metal Gear Solid 4. 
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AndrewGaspar

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#3  Edited By AndrewGaspar

Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong.

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Keyser_Soze

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#4  Edited By Keyser_Soze

System Wars!!!

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AgentJ

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#5  Edited By AgentJ
AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Am I the only one Killzone 2s graphics haven't impressed? 
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neoepoch

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#6  Edited By neoepoch
AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Don't forget MGS4.
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ZombieHunterOG

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#7  Edited By ZombieHunterOG
AgentJ said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Am I the only one Killzone 2s graphics haven't impressed? 
"
no i could agree 
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Guardian

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#8  Edited By Guardian

Some will say it is. Some will say is isn't. 

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oldschool

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#9  Edited By oldschool
Keyser_Soze said:
"System Wars!!!"
It is probably inevitable, but still worthy a discussion.

I have no opinion.  The only time I have ever seen a PS3 running is in a store.  Not enough to judge it by.  What is important is his comments though.  Is he wrong or do we (you - whoever you are) agree with him?

My only significant comment would be, the graphics largely depend on the quality and effort of the developer, irrespective of the console.  I have seen many a graphic on the Wii that seriously impresses me and only reinforces the lack of effort by others.  On the 360, Eternal Sonata is by FAR, the best looking game I have ever seen.  The colour and animation is sublime.

However, on the technical matters, I have no idea if he is right or not.
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JJOR64

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#10  Edited By JJOR64

Ok, so this means the MGS 4 could work on Xbox 360.

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toowalrus

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#11  Edited By toowalrus
AgentJ said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Am I the only one Killzone 2s graphics haven't impressed? 
"
Nah, it looks good to me, but not much better than the 360 stuff out there. GT5 isn't even out yet, and I don't judge graphics until I see it played, not web footage.
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Arkthemaniac

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#12  Edited By Arkthemaniac
AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Gran Turismo 5 is vaporware.

Anyways, on the case of Killzone . . . the game was in development for how long? Delayed how many times? Doesn't it stand to reason that the peeps at Guerilla delayed it so much because the PS3 was such a bitch to work?
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tekmojo

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#13  Edited By tekmojo

Guitar Hero and Rock Band....

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#14  Edited By jakob187
AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
First off, you are talking about Sony first-party games.  That's a bit hard to argue with when it's the company who made the console.  Moreover, how are you supposed to compare any of that?  Between the style of Killzone 2 and Gran Turismo 5 versus comparable graphics powerhouses on 360 like...off the top of my head...Gears of War 2 and GRID...it's tough to argue that.  You are ALSO talking about two games that were in development for...HOW LONG?

neoepoch said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Don't forget MGS4."
Yes, don't forget MGS4...or the rumored surprise announcement of MGS4: Oxide for 360 at E3.  This is a moot point if the game is seriously coming over to 360, and it will be even more of a moot point if it performs at the same level as the PS3 in terms of graphics.  That would just embarrass Sony.

______________

Look, I hate console wars, to be honest.  However, all of the things in that article...as well as the horror stories we've all heard over the years from the Bioshock team and Digital Extremes (and let's not forget the times when Kojima was pissed off at Sony as well)...it would seem that homeboy is right on the money.  I mean, Killzone 2 took 4 years...5 years...to complete!  IT TOOK HALF AS LONG AS DUKE NUKEM FOREVER'S DEVELOPMENT CYCLE!!!  Yes, KZ2 does look good, but by all means, it's not the end-all be-all of graphics, as graphics will always be a subjective thing for the most part unless you are talking about strict and pure photorealism and that's all.

Personally, I find it refreshing to see that a developer is willing to step out and say "look, man...the PS3 is a hoss to program for, and it's difficult, and it's not what everyone thinks it's cracked up to be".  By all means, he's not going to BASH the system because his products are sold on the platform...but he will speak out about the trials and tribulations that are involved in getting a game out on the system.

So bravo, Jason.  I commend you for being upfront and honest so that the public can know at least a portion of the truth.  360 owners will surely use the comments to bash Sony's box, but whatever.  They're all 'tards anyways.  What's important about the statements he's made and the words that he's said is that we are CONSTANTLY talking about how games are always costing millions upon millions of dollars to make, and yet when we read something like this and see just how difficult a company has made it for developers to properly and effectively do their job, it says far more to me as a consumer than anything that a fanboy argument/rant could ever say.
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oldschool

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#15  Edited By oldschool
JJOR64 said:
"Ok, so this means the MGS 4 could work on Xbox 360."
Apparently so:

 While at TGS, Konami PR mouthpiece Yoshitaka Arai told Morningstar:

The worldwide demand for an Xbox 360version (of MGS4) is quite high, and it is something we are currently looking in to.

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pause422

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#16  Edited By pause422
AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
How do they say hes wrong? Seeing as they will always be Sony exclusives there is no proof that will ever happen if you were looking at each game on both the PS3 and the 360. As far as space goes, yes, having things on one disc is better than what the 360 does with some games and has multiple that you have to swap, I really hate that. As far as hardware power though, there has hardly ever been any proof besides Sony's own claims. Not that it matters to me anyway, I have both consoles and I have games I enjoy on both...still, what this developer says could easily be the truth.
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redgauss

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#17  Edited By redgauss
AgentJ said:
"Frankly, I think Sony is in trouble"
They won the home video format war with blu-ray and one could argue that that was their goal all along. Whether or not they "win" this console generation doesn't matter much in their long run view of the entertainment market. Once they are receiving royalties from every movie, tv box set, game etc... their worries will be long gone.  
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PowerSerj

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#18  Edited By PowerSerj
jakob187 said:
"as graphics will always be a subjective thing for the most part unless you are talking about strict and pure photorealism and that's all."
Isn't that the benchmark games have been striving to achieve since, like, forever? But I digress.

I don't really feel one way or the other about this. This is just fuel for the fanboy fire.
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#19  Edited By thiago

Opinions are worth nothing, facts are what matter. He is analyzing for one point of view only. The Cell is more capable for floating point operations than the 360, so in theory it could be used for better physics, geometrical calculations, etc.

I haven't studied the Cell architecture yet, but knowing how developers are, I am sure they don't want to leave their comfort zone. Being "worse" in the software developer world usually mean being "different", i.e., it may require a different approach for solving it.

Killzone was gorgeous not because of texture resolution only, but because of particle effects, lighting, etc. Probably they found a way of harnessing the Cell to do some heavy lifting work.

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AgentJ

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#20  Edited By AgentJ
redgauss said:
"AgentJ said:
"Frankly, I think Sony is in trouble"
They won the home video format war with blu-ray and one could argue that that was their goal all along. Whether or not they "win" this console generation doesn't matter much in their long run view of the entertainment market. Once they are receiving royalties from every movie, tv box set, game etc... their worries will be long gone.   "
But it's not clear yet that anyone actually WANTS to move to a new format. And even if they do, it could be 10 years before such a shift really takes place. so far signs have shown that the market as a whole isnt ready for Blu-Ray
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#21  Edited By thiago
Arkthemaniac said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Gran Turismo 5 is vaporware.

Anyways, on the case of Killzone . . . the game was in development for how long? Delayed how many times? Doesn't it stand to reason that the peeps at Guerilla delayed it so much because the PS3 was such a bitch to work?
"

GT5 Prologue has been out for quite some time. And even if the GT5 complete will include improvements, the current one out is already better looking than any other racing game out there.
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Brendan

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#22  Edited By Brendan
Guardian said:
"Some will say it is. Some will say is isn't. "

Oh my god, is your picture from Reboot? That is all.
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thiago

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#23  Edited By thiago

Not trying to do some cheap attack on the guy, but is Guitar Hero and Rock Band that much resource intensive? Maybe those games are so complex that the PS3 is not enough? :)

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#24  Edited By iamjohn
Keyser_Soze said:
"System Wars!!!"

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#25  Edited By meteora

This is an interesting read. I always thought that developers were lazy when it came to making ports for the PS3. I speculated that the processor cell was fairly complicated and it took more time to develop for. Raw and technical hardware does not directly translate to better graphics by the way, most games look pretty much the same on both the 360 and PS3 with some differences (such as better anti-aliasing for 360, I can't remember what specific point does the PS3 handle better at).

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PercyChuggs

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#26  Edited By PercyChuggs

I own both, so who cares. Only moron fanboys.

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#27  Edited By alexl86

Isn't this common knowledge by now? Graphically, the 360 is probably more powerful than the PS3, though the PS3 benefit some from the immense size of the blu-ray, even if it loads slower.

AndrewGaspar said:

"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."

Uhm, what? I can see why you bring up Killzone, but GT5? Racing games in general don't make good graphical showcases and GT games in particular have very nice looking car models, but nothing more. As for Killzone, does it really look that good?
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#28  Edited By meteora
alexl86 said:
AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Uhm, what? I can see why you bring up Killzone, but GT5? Racing games in general don't make good graphical showcases and GT games in particular have very nice looking car models, but nothing more. As for Killzone, does it really look that good?"

Racing games are also great for showcasing lots of flat cut grass!







... Yeah
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randiolo

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#29  Edited By randiolo

who is this guy? he could make coffees at ubisoft for all i know. MGS4 couldnt work on the 360, becoz if it could.. it would.. but kojima said it wasnt possible. This thread is just an elaborate flame..

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Seedofpower

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#30  Edited By Seedofpower

who cares?

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keyhunter

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#31  Edited By keyhunter

For the hundredth fucking time. FLOPS aren't important. A PS3 has more FLOPS than my PC, but my PC is like 8 times more powerful. FLOPS are only important for playing movies at high resolutions.

OH WAIT.

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TwoOneFive

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#32  Edited By TwoOneFive

wow you had to post this didn't you. take it to gamespot and GTFO



everyone and their fat aunt knows that PS3 exclusives are superior in terms of technical prowess over 360 exclusives. Example: Killzone 2 is generally considered the most technically advanced game ever made.  And before that, it was MGS4. 

I love both systems, but I see no reason in denying the fact that PS3 is clearly more powerful...it has 8 fucking cores people. EIGHT! lol

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randiolo

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#33  Edited By randiolo
TwoOneFive said:
"wow you had to post this didn't you. take it to gamespot and GTFO


everyone and their fat aunt knows that PS3 exclusives are superior in terms of technical prowess over 360 exclusives. Example: Killzone 2 is generally considered the most technically advanced game ever made.  And before that, it was MGS4. 

I love both systems, but I see no reason in denying the fact that PS3 is clearly more powerful...it has 8 fucking cores people. EIGHT! lol

"
let me help... *clears throat*   EIGHHHTTT !
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#34  Edited By strangeling
"Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin... ports to the PS3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and ...most PS3 exclusives will likely continue to suck," he says."
Those ellipses mean they didn't use the complete quote.
I find it hard to believe he said that last bit.  If he actually did, he's an idiot.  Just because a system isn't the most powerful one, doesn't mean its games suck.  Especially if those games are exclusives tailor made for the system.
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#35  Edited By AgentJ
TwoOneFive said:
"wow you had to post this didn't you. take it to gamespot and GTFO


everyone and their fat aunt knows that PS3 exclusives are superior in terms of technical prowess over 360 exclusives. Example: Killzone 2 is generally considered the most technically advanced game ever made.  And before that, it was MGS4. 

I love both systems, but I see no reason in denying the fact that PS3 is clearly more powerful...it has 8 fucking cores people. EIGHT! lol

"
Generally considered the most technically advanced game ever made? I thought Crysis was considered the most technically advanced game ever made. Killzone just doesnt look that good to me
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SathingtonWaltz

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#36  Edited By SathingtonWaltz

It amazes me how much people care about this stupid shit. I have my PS3 for the games and the reliability, I could not care less whether which system was more powerful, though the evidence so far for me leans toward the PS3. System wars are stupid, we are gamers, not soldiers for platforms.

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#37  Edited By mike
SathingtonWaltz said:
System wars are stupid, we are gamers, not soldiers for platforms. "
  There are already individuals involved in this thread that see themselves as defenders of Sony's honor...and honestly, they belong over at Sony Defense Force or some such site. It's ridiculous.
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#38  Edited By SathingtonWaltz
MB said:
"SathingtonWaltz said:
System wars are stupid, we are gamers, not soldiers for platforms. "
  There are already individuals involved in this thread that see themselves as defenders of Sony's honor...and honestly, they belong over at Sony Defense Force or some such site. It's ridiculous."
Agreed. I mean yeah, I guess I lean toward Sony's machine, but I don't fight for the damn thing. I realize that there are flaws on both platforms, I just don't understand where people feel the need to fight for the damn machine as if it's an integral and important aspect of their lives.
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#39  Edited By AgentJ
MB said:
"SathingtonWaltz said:
System wars are stupid, we are gamers, not soldiers for platforms. "
  There are already individuals involved in this thread that see themselves as defenders of Sony's honor...and honestly, they belong over at Sony Defense Force or some such site. It's ridiculous."
*cough* thiago *cough*
The playstation 2 is one of the greatest gaming platforms ever made. Every step Sony has made since then has been a misstep. That includes the Playstation 3, which cost too much and apparantly wasnt as powerful as its main competitor, which came out a year earlier. 
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#40  Edited By mike

I dunno. I think both the PS3 and the Xbox 360 have their pluses and minuses, with each being slightly stronger at doing certain things than the other. I'm an owner of every console, but I really believe that the Sony fanboys are still buying into the marketing hype from three years ago that the PS3 is a "supercomputer" or some such nonsense.

If it's that much better...why are the games practically identical? Get over it already, people.

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SathingtonWaltz

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#41  Edited By SathingtonWaltz
AgentJ said:
"MB said:
"SathingtonWaltz said:
System wars are stupid, we are gamers, not soldiers for platforms. "
  There are already individuals involved in this thread that see themselves as defenders of Sony's honor...and honestly, they belong over at Sony Defense Force or some such site. It's ridiculous."
*cough* thiago *cough*
The playstation 2 is one of the greatest gaming platforms ever made. Every step Sony has made since then has been a misstep. That includes the Playstation 3, which cost too much and apparantly wasnt as powerful as its main competitor, which came out a year earlier. 
"
Sure I agree that Sony has not played it's cards well with their platform, but the argument proposed in this thread, that the Xbox 360 is more powerful than the PS3, seems somewhat invalid, because the actual evidence is not in it's favor. I haven't really seen anything on the Xbox yet that impressed me more than games like MGS4 and Uncharted. Though maybe I'm not raising a good argument as well, because perhaps using first party games isn't really a good example... not sure, and I don't care enough to think about it anymore. Also, I really don't see the point in arguing over the power over each machine. I got my PS3 for it's games.
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Johnny_Reckless

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#42  Edited By Johnny_Reckless
PercyChuggs said:
"I own both, so who cares. Only moron fanboys."

This...
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#43  Edited By maxszy
AgentJ said:
"redgauss said:
"AgentJ said:
"Frankly, I think Sony is in trouble"
They won the home video format war with blu-ray and one could argue that that was their goal all along. Whether or not they "win" this console generation doesn't matter much in their long run view of the entertainment market. Once they are receiving royalties from every movie, tv box set, game etc... their worries will be long gone.   "
But it's not clear yet that anyone actually WANTS to move to a new format. And even if they do, it could be 10 years before such a shift really takes place. so far signs have shown that the market as a whole isnt ready for Blu-Ray
"
Plus, the average consumer doesn't appreciate the fine differences between blu-ray and DVD. For there to be a full format shift (in my opinion) it has to be more than just an upgrade from one disc to another. While I know the difference and can see the difference, many don't really care. Especially since many don't even have an HDTV yet.

Whether or not that is digital distribution or some whole to format we don't even know exists yet I don't know. But the switch from VHS to DVD was so huge, even in physical size. Its not the same going to Blu-Ray. Plus an upconverted DVD used with a good upconverting DVD player and a nice HDTV can look REALLY good. No, not Blu-Ray quality as its not native 1080p but awfully close. Average consumers aren't going to care about that.
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fishinwithguns

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#44  Edited By fishinwithguns

Nothing against PS3 owners, but you guys get way too defensive when someone questions the power of your favorite console.  And this guy is a developer, I'm assuming, so I think I'd take his word for it.  I can understand ignoring anyone who claims, or appears, to be a "fanboy" of any kind, but I think this guy has a litte more credibility.  And yea, it's no secret that blu-rays read more slowly than standard DVDs.  I do like games, but not so much that I want load times in my movies as well.

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tekmojo

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#45  Edited By tekmojo

The thread title is a vomited survivor just like in Left4Dead. Here come the horde...


Too much L4D lol..But yea its isolated system wars in here, kind of fun if we keep within terms. Wonder if people are flagging in here? Wonder how many looked for the plus/minus lol.
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bandresen

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#46  Edited By bandresen

The part where he says that Blu-ray is slower than DVD is factually correct.

But one has to look at more than one component when talking about that... Even the most awful PS3 version out there has a harddisk. This is guaranteed... The 360 doesn't offer that.

So multiplat titles have to take advantage and be aware of the disadvantages of the different systems. The 360 has less optical disk capacity but optional harddisk space for caching, and the PS3 has more optical disk capacity and less throughput, but guaranteed harddisk space.

Another point that I would agree with is that the 360 seems to be the easier platform to develop for because it resembles a PC more. And furthermore, the PS3 doesn't have eight cores. It uses SPU's that are not general purpose CPU-cores that you can find in PCs.

I don't know what to take from his "PS3 is not selling" argument though. Worldwide the PS3 might be last this generation, but I doubt EA, Capcom and Activision are going to stop making games for it. Seems unlikely to make that choice now, after they've had so many projects on both platforms.

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MrGetBonus

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#47  Edited By MrGetBonus
tekmojo said:
"Guitar Hero and Rock Band...."

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WilliamRLBaker

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#48  Edited By WilliamRLBaker
JJOR64 said:
"Ok, so this means the MGS 4 could work on Xbox 360."
With the state of mgs4 yes it could be done on 360, Of course porting it over would be an option but doing extra work would be all the better, the only problem is bluray and dvd, but with mgs4 only taking up 32 gigs of a blu ray dual layer disc and about 10 gigs plus of that being uncompressed 7.1 PCM, We have no idea what compression techniques sony used on files for the game, and the we know the uncompressed pcm takes up alot, it likely could fit on 1-2 discs.

TwoOneFive said:
"wow you had to post this didn't you. take it to gamespot and GTFO


everyone and their fat aunt knows that PS3 exclusives are superior in terms of technical prowess over 360 exclusives. Example: Killzone 2 is generally considered the most technically advanced game ever made.  And before that, it was MGS4
I love both systems, but I see no reason in denying the fact that PS3 is clearly more powerful...it has 8 fucking cores people. EIGHT! lol

"
Says who? I don't know of any one that generally accepts kz2 as the most technically advanced game ever made specially since in my playtime with it during its cutscenes to gameplay its all most as if the graphics get notched down with the cutscenes looking better, having better animation...ect then the actual gameplay as for that MGS4 is not technically more advanced then gears of war 2 as for that you don't even know your terms of technical specs, the CELL does not have 8 cores, it has 1 core, and 7 spe's with one 1 spe being dedicated solely to XMB effectively 6 spes available for games and the main core.  A 8 core cpu would have made the ps3 1000-1500 dollars atleast upon release.
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HitmanAgent47

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#49  Edited By HitmanAgent47

I agree, I meant I belive the ps3's gpu only has 256mb video memory to work with and a serperate 256mb XDR ram which it doesn't use for textures. I think there is alot of bottlenecking and the lack of memory affects the textures for ps3 multiplatform games. Blue ray is at 2X is slower than the xbox360's dvd drive. So it means for loading, it needs to use installations to stream from the hardrive instead of the blue ray disc. Also even if ppl thinks that blue ray is bigger, dvd games are compressed so it's similar.

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OmegaPirate

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#50  Edited By OmegaPirate

OMGS TOLD J00 SOO LOLZ TEH HAL0z AND GEarz CHAINSAWZZZ SONY IZ FINISHHE!!!D


Seriously guys chill the fuck out - half of that statement doesnt even make sense, probably just some dude bored on his tea break looking for 15 minutes of fame

 ports to the PS3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and ...most PS3 exclusives will likely continue to suck," he says.

I doubt any developer owuld be as unproffesional as to say something this  daft tbh - it would be damaging towards sales for that company, and sure, 360 ports dont work as well, but ps3 ports to 360, mirrors edge, burnout, or anytrhing else where ps3 was lead developed - also has scored significantly higher than its counterpart.

Does this mean the 360 sucks and is less powerful?
No
Whichever you put the most work into will have the better game - simple, so yes it is the developers fault -fallout 3 proved this - and as for the 360 -ps3 port, oblivion says hi too!

And im not even going to touch the exclusive games suck, thats just far too easy tbh.

As far as - 'who says the least powerful consoles games suck" before you read this thread and its solid facts that convinved you the ps3 was weak - before that when you thought the ps3 was an almighty monolith of power!!!! did you think 360 games sucked?? hell no - so whats the big deal? nothing.

End of the day while he may factually be correct on some of the technical aspects, i think this dude is just blowing out his ass - and i really cant see anything productive coming out of this thread