Game developers are only encouraging sexism in gaming communities

>equating lack of decent female leads with the encouragement of sexism Someone put a banister on that slope before someone slips and hurts themselves!

@Abigailnn said:

How DOESNT a lack of female protagonists encourage sexism? Male protagonists = generally more appealing to guys = more guys play videogames = gaming communities are mostly guys.

I don't think sexism means what you think it means. What you just described leads to a skew in the amount of representation a gender is getting in the medium. That is not the same thing as leading to a generalization of what a gender should be capable of or how a gender should be viewed. What would lead to sexism is if every game had a female lead who was nothing but a shell of a character with breasts and cleavage.

Under representation is certainly a problem, as it leads to girls not playing games that are not necessarily toned to their sensibilities as well as limiting the narrative potential of video games. But once again, neither of those things are sexist in any way unless you have evidence that the narrative limit is simply within a sexist field, which is not true

@Wrighteous86 said:

@McGhee_the_Insomniac: A lack of protagonists that girls can identify with is most likely one reason that many girls never get into gaming. It may not be the only reason, but it is a prohibitive aspect of gaming culture. That seems to be her main point.

I think we can all agree on that. But what you just described is not sexism.

This thread is adorable, and I'm not quite sure how to contribute. While I agree there should be more female protagonists in gaming, which may take a while since this industry is still young and - as much as we want to deny it - there is still a huge cultural stigma looming over video gamers being unloved basement nerds. Like I said, I agree there should be more games centered around female protagonists, but the theme of this thread and the way the TC is handling it is almost Fox News-worthy. People usually create what they understand. It's a lot easier for a male designer, artist, writer, director, etc. to create a protagonist that they want to be, a character they can easily put their head into (uhhh...).

@Napalm said:

@McGhee_the_Insomniac said:

I don't know how many different ways I can say this, but merely having a male exist in the lead role does NOT encourage sexism.

You have to judge each piece of media independently. This is a pretty huge straw man, and you're somehow driving something you see as "fact" out of something that is merely subjective.

Where's the straw man? She's tired of playing as male characters. I get it. But how does having more male characters than female "encourage sexism"? This is also assuming that there aren't quite a few good female leads, which isn't true.

So the fact that there aren't many non-stereotyped protagonists that are not white promotes racism in gaming communities, right? Logic?

@PeasantAbuse: That's just it. I'm not saying I always want the choice, or I'm often in a situation where I'm thinking "I wish this dude was a lady". I just enjoy playing games that have male protagonists, and also games with female protagonists.

@PeasantAbuse: That's just it. I'm not saying I always want the choice, or I'm often in a situation where I'm thinking "I wish this dude was a lady". I just enjoy playing games that have male protagonists, and also games with female protagonists.

I don't think the problem is that we see too few good story driven games with female heroes, but that we see too few good story games.

@N7 said:

No offense, but if Adam Jensen would have been a girl, she would have gotten the shit beat out of her in the first 20 minutes of the game, and everyone would have cried "Oh, but she's supposed to be a strong-willed woman! How dare Eidos portray a woman being bastardized by a man in a video game! What sexism!".
 

  

  SHE'S NOT EVEN AUGMENTED

Heavenly Sword, Final Fantasy 13, Heavy Rain are the only games I can think of that have female protagonist. I agree that we need more female main characters in games, total sausage fest

So the fact that there aren't many non-stereotyped protagonists that are not white promotes racism in gaming communities, right? Logic?

@FluxWaveZ said:

So the fact that there aren't many non-stereotyped protagonists that are not white promotes racism in gaming communities, right? Logic?

No, but it sure does go to show that games have an embarrassing lack of diversity.  Saying  that a lack of non-embarrasing female characters in gaming encourages sexism is a little silly-- but it sure as hell is incredibly juvenile and narrow that 99% of videogame protagonists can be described as "White, brown-haired male, age 30" .

@FluxWaveZ said:

So the fact that there aren't many non-stereotyped protagonists that are not white promotes racism in gaming communities, right? Logic?

No, but it sure does go to show that games have an embarrassing lack of diversity.  Saying  that a lack of non-embarrasing female characters in gaming encourages sexism is a little silly-- but it sure as hell is incredibly juvenile and narrow that 99% of videogame protagonists can be described as "White, brown-haired male, age 30" .

I thought Jade from Beyond Good and Evil was a great character. Also, the new Tomb Raider looks pretty awesome.

I genuinely would be enjoying Human Rev more if I were playing as a female, then it'd be that much closer to Ghost in the Shell.  I've never really understood the sheer lack of female protagonists in general in games, let alone well written serious ones.  Guess its just a thing we have to wait patiently for the publishers/developers to get over. Sadly theirs still this massive industry wide mindset that games are for guys and guys don't want to play as girls.  You say "girls wanna play hardcore action games too!" to some random publisher atm and they'll just look at you confused like you're speaking an alien language.
 
The new tomb raider looked like it was going to finally give us a game with a strong female protagonist but that whole e3 demo was basically torture porn and I suspect it wont change in the final game >_>

@Abigailnn said:

@N7: i didn't mean just taking dues ex and replacing adam with a girl, adam is a great character for the game. but a similar game could easily work -and be better- with a female lead imo

If you want to talk about sexism...

Anyways, it's not sexism. Like everyone else says, it's just demographics. Sexism is saying that male or female protagonists are better than the other...oh wait.

I find there aren't enough terrapin protagonists in the videogames I play, bloody Xenophobes.

This is no possible way encourages sexism..

The new tomb raider looked like it was going to finally give us a game with a strong female protagonist but that whole e3 demo was basically torture porn and I suspect it wont change in the final game >_>

Yo dawg play Mirror's Edge. Oh wait you said it was bad and I love that game so fuck you... Seriously though I'm kind of sick of people wanting female or gay protagonists just for the sake of having them. If they can craft a good story with a female protagonist than great but don't look at a certain game and complain you are playing as a male. The story was crafted for a male protagonist for a reason. Just like how a game like Bayonetta, which I think is an awesome female protagonist, wouldn't be good if male was e lead, the game was not crafted for that in mind. I also hate when people think that when a protagonist is female they overly sexualize them. With Metroid Other M people complained that Samus was too sexy and also not confident enough. Team Ninja was trying to give some depth to the character, they might have executed it wrong but at least they were trying. Also Samus is thin because she has to jump around all crazy like and fight monsters, she's going to be crazy in shape just like every male protagonist is. Sorry for rambling I just hate this topic.

I think its because with serious and realistic game, a female character as the lead would most likely kill the realism. Because even in those games that have a strong male character it is sometimes hard to believe some of the physical stuff could be pulled off. So add in a female and having her move a 200lb bolder would just make me say "how could she do that?" So I think its come down to physicality in games. I mean there is a reason female and male sports are separate, men are the more physical sex.

Now having said that there are other factors to consider. If they make a game strictly a male or female character, they have to look at there target audience, and the facts are more males play video games. So would u want to take the risk on loosing the sales of your biggest audience? No, its easy for people to sit here and say "yeah id put a female as lead" but the fact is you dont have $$$ on the line if your game dont sell u dont eat, also I'm sure its a pretty hard sell to the board of investors. Also, if you do decide to have a choice of either a female or a male, then you have to look at your budget, is the extra work to put the female in the game worth our time? or should we use that time to make the game more polished or add other features?

So honestly I think there are a few factors for us not seeing more female leads in games.

The Longest Journey is a semi-old point-and-click game with a female lead, and I thought the character choice worked out very well. There is a ton of dialogue in the game, and you do RP as her, but since there isn't anything especially girly about her, it's no different from playing a male.

Except for the rare times when men hit on her... those are kind of awkward moments.

Consider what games are. Why should they have female protagonists? It would be nice, but the actual content of games doesn't change when a lady is the main character so it never makes a difference besides for visually.

The new tomb raider looked like it was going to finally give us a game with a strong female protagonist but that whole e3 demo was basically torture porn and I suspect it wont change in the final game >_>

@N7 said:

Now I understand the only way out of this mess is for Lifetime to start making video games.

"Becky was just a teenage mother living in the comfortable little town of Spokane Washington when one fateful day, she was raped by an evil multinationalist paramilitary corporation hellbent on demoralizing women. Can she save the world while keeping her composure as a woman, and, as a mother? Lifetime is proud to announce a new video game: Rapes On A Train."

Someone hire this man.

@Lazyaza said:

The new tomb raider looked like it was going to finally give us a game with a strong female protagonist but that whole e3 demo was basically torture porn and I suspect it wont change in the final game >_>

It totally wasn't!  It was like that snow level in Uncharted!  She was in a bad way and injured and had to get out!  No one said Uncharted had torture porn segments when the game went Die Hard on his ass.

in Europa Universalis 3, you can have the most awesomest queen with high stats, but you can't make her lead her armies FUCKING BULLSHIT

QUEEN ANNE DE DREUX NEEDS TO LEAD HER ARMIES.

This seems like a foolish, or at the very least, poorly thought out thread upon reading in to it. To lampoon sexism and then go on to say that many games would be 'better with a female lead' is such an oxymoron.

I'd love to see games that portray a female, player controlled protagonist. But at the same time, I'd like for it to be believable, and that delves in to a deeper issue -- what seems to be a lack of female creative leads in game development. People recreate what they know, to some extent. Men know men. So men make men. It's simply an easier process. Now if you'd like to attack the lack of creativity that leads to a primarily white, male protagonist, then I will back you.

@Lazyaza said:

The new tomb raider looked like it was going to finally give us a game with a strong female protagonist but that whole e3 demo was basically torture porn and I suspect it wont change in the final game >_>

So you want more female protagonist. But you want them to never be endangered, never want to have to overcome adversity and never want them to become stronger characters for it? It's not torture porn, it's a trial she has to overcome.  You can't want a female protagonist AND want them to be treated like fragile weaklings because that IS sexism.

ugh, no way, i could never relate to the thoughts and experience of a woman and that would ruin my IMMERSION. now, a 7 foot tall, bald, ultra strong space marine.. i can totally relate to one of those. 

I'll throw out there that games are still combat oriented and the world still employs male soldiers. We don't live in a society where women actually fight in the military (or have since the Middle Ages;) in any medium, badass action women are seen as exploitation, and games are still about badass action heroes. Yes, female protagonists when used are generally sexualized in the same sense as Xena: Warrior Princess, but ultimately games are still about combat, so women as they are in a realistic society don't make great protagonists. Now, the fact that we haven't seen a game starring a realistic woman soldier in a series like Mass Effect where it's clearly established as otherwise through Ashley and Tali, I'm not sure, but they always seemed more interesting to me as supporting characters than they would be as protagonists. Maybe that's because protagonists in games are usually blank-slates so that you can identify with them more.

@Ygg said:

@N7 said:

No offense, but if Adam Jensen would have been a girl, she would have gotten the shit beat out of her in the first 20 minutes of the game, and everyone would have cried "Oh, but she's supposed to be a strong-willed woman! How dare Eidos portray a woman being bastardized by a man in a video game! What sexism!".

SHE'S NOT EVEN AUGMENTED

He's referring to the fact that Adam Jensen as a man still gets the shit beat out of him in the first 20 minutes of the game, and if he were a lady it would have provoked some hissyfits.

@Video_Game_King said:

I'm not sure that the lack of female protagonists is encouraging sexism, at least actively, but it is a problem that should probably be fixed. RPGs are kinda OK about it, but that's about it.

RPGs definitely are the genre with the most female protagonists. I personally speculate that's because their worlds are about interacting with another reality to begin with rather than the societal norms we have placed.

@Abigailnn said:

@N7: i didn't mean just taking dues ex and replacing adam with a girl, adam is a great character for the game. but a similar game could easily work -and be better- with a female lead imo

If you want to talk about sexism...

Anyways, it's not sexism. Like everyone else says, it's just demographics. Sexism is saying that male or female protagonists are better than the other...oh wait.

i really don't get the "people won't be able to relate/ it won't sell as well" argument. i am a minority and i have never had a problem relating to the john stubbbled chisle-faced brunette mcbrickfist characters that populate gaming and other media.
 
are white males simply incapable of relating to protagonists that don't look like them?

@Little_Socrates: I don't know about the rest of the world, but Canada opened all positions, including combat roles, to women in 1989.

Most gamers are male, so it makes sense to appeal to them more. It seriously works, sex sells. Objectification of women sells. Don't blame the developers, blame the sorry state of society.

Besides, what game could be made better by jamming a female into the lead's shoes? Dead Space? Brutal Legend? Bastion? 

@The_Nubster said:

Besides, what game could be made better by jamming a female into the lead's shoes? Dead Space? Brutal Legend? Bastion? 

Who the hell said anything about "jamming" a female lead into a male-centric role? Talk about a fucking straw man.  I can't even tell if people are being serious or ironic anymore. This topic sucks.

@Napalm said:

@The_Nubster said:

Besides, what game could be made better by jamming a female into the lead's shoes? Dead Space? Brutal Legend? Bastion? 

Who the hell said anything about "jamming" a female lead into a male-centric role? Talk about a fucking straw man.  I can't even tell if people are being serious or ironic anymore. This topic sucks.

A lot of people in this thread are saying "This game would be better with a female lead just cause."  In fact the guy he quoted said a similar game could be better just by having a female.

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Napalm said:

@The_Nubster said:

Besides, what game could be made better by jamming a female into the lead's shoes? Dead Space? Brutal Legend? Bastion? 

Who the hell said anything about "jamming" a female lead into a male-centric role? Talk about a fucking straw man.  I can't even tell if people are being serious or ironic anymore. This topic sucks.

A lot of people in this thread are saying "This game would be better with a female lead just cause."  In fact the guy he quoted said a similar game could be better just by having a female.

Some of those stories can be repurposed to support a female lead, but you can't just literally drop a female in there and have it make absolute sense.

Fucking Bayonetta was all about having a hugely empowered proud female protagonist- I read reviews from female players who claimed that game made them feel just fucking badass for being a woman.

@Napalm said:

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Napalm said:

@The_Nubster said:

Besides, what game could be made better by jamming a female into the lead's shoes? Dead Space? Brutal Legend? Bastion? 

Who the hell said anything about "jamming" a female lead into a male-centric role? Talk about a fucking straw man.  I can't even tell if people are being serious or ironic anymore. This topic sucks.

A lot of people in this thread are saying "This game would be better with a female lead just cause."  In fact the guy he quoted said a similar game could be better just by having a female.

Some of those stories can be repurposed to support a female lead, but you can't just literally drop a female in there and have it make absolute sense.

No shit.

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Napalm said:

@The_Nubster said:

Besides, what game could be made better by jamming a female into the lead's shoes? Dead Space? Brutal Legend? Bastion? 

Who the hell said anything about "jamming" a female lead into a male-centric role? Talk about a fucking straw man.  I can't even tell if people are being serious or ironic anymore. This topic sucks.

A lot of people in this thread are saying "This game would be better with a female lead just cause."  In fact the guy he quoted said a similar game could be better just by having a female.

Some of those stories can be repurposed to support a female lead, but you can't just literally drop a female in there and have it make absolute sense.

@huntad said:

@Abigailnn said:

@N7: i didn't mean just taking dues ex and replacing adam with a girl, adam is a great character for the game. but a similar game could easily work -and be better- with a female lead imo

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Napalm said:

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Napalm said:

@The_Nubster said:

Besides, what game could be made better by jamming a female into the lead's shoes? Dead Space? Brutal Legend? Bastion? 

Who the hell said anything about "jamming" a female lead into a male-centric role? Talk about a fucking straw man.  I can't even tell if people are being serious or ironic anymore. This topic sucks.

A lot of people in this thread are saying "This game would be better with a female lead just cause."  In fact the guy he quoted said a similar game could be better just by having a female.

Some of those stories can be repurposed to support a female lead, but you can't just literally drop a female in there and have it make absolute sense.

No shit.

You're pissing me off. Stop quoting me, you asshat.

What the fuck did I just say? Fucking come on, people! JESUS.

What the fuck did I just say? Fucking come on, people! JESUS.

@Lazyaza said:

The new tomb raider looked like it was going to finally give us a game with a strong female protagonist but that whole e3 demo was basically torture porn and I suspect it wont change in the final game >_>

So you want more female protagonists. But you want them to never be endangered, never want to have to overcome adversity and never want them to become stronger characters for it? It's not torture porn, it's a trial she has to overcome.  You can't want a female protagonist AND want them to be treated like fragile weaklings because that IS sexism.

@Napalm said:

What the fuck did I just say? Fucking come on, people! JESUS.

Calling people straw man because I guess you just heard of that phrase recently and wanted to use it then call people names.