Game Devs should just not bother to make MMOs

Seriously, I know all the MMOs out there have their core group of fans, but none have come close to the gargantuan success of WOW.  Alot of these MMOs become shells of their original game, see Star Wars Galaxies, or a ruined heap of ashes, see The Matrix Online.  These MMOs also cost developers millions of dollars to make, and as we found out today with APB, can often end up destroying a company with their inevitable downfall.  I find it hard to follow any developers logic in creating a new MMO, and their ability to recoup development costs through the game.  Just because WOW is successful does not mean MMOs will be successful.  The main problem with MMOs is that people usually have to pay a monthly fee.  People are unwilling to pay for substandard or uninteresting products, without seeing any significant return.  So guys, let's just stop, there have to be other and better games you can put your resources to.

Guild Wars 2 looks fantastic. SWTOR looks fantastic.  FF XIV looks fantastic...  Aion did reasonably well.
 
Maybe you should stop making posts. If everyone gave up on shit when someone else failed the world wouldn't progress.

I think the problem is that many MMO developers are putting all their eggs in one basket, they use these millions of dollars expecting a return. What they should do is look at how CCP or those indie MMO developers have done business: get a very basic game with as little the cost as possible, get the cult following that can help fund the game,then grow from there. It's much much safer and ends up making a much more community driven experience.

Don't like MMO's, don't play 'em.

There are plenty of mmo's that are fun and are doing just fine. In the same vain, just because the GTA's, Halo's and CoD's of this world sell millions of copies doesn't mean that other developers should stop making games. Diversity and competition is good for business.

Maybe they should start there mmo small and then expand it.

You mean:
 
"Game Devs should just not bother to make bad MMOs"
 
If you think an MMO needs the numbers of WoW to be succesful then you're wrong.

The problem isn't that people are trying to make MMOs, the problem is that too many people try to duplicate World of Warcraft to try and gain something anywhere near the kind of success Blizzard have enjoyed and fall short because their game ends up being too unoriginal. Developers who can make original and well-made MMOs that are worth the money will be able to survive in the market. You seem to be emphasizing that the fees attached are why people won't play MMOs and the development costs involved are too much for producers and developers but WoW in itself has proved that is not true.

You can't judge the whole market based on WoW or APB.  WoW is the most successful game ever made, whilst APB is probably the single biggest failure in gaming history.  They are extreme examples, and all they do show is just how high the stakes are, which is exactly why companies want in so badly in the first place.  There are plenty of varying degrees of success and failure between WoW and APB, and WoW certainly isn't the only MMO out there making money.

" Guild Wars 2 looks fantastic. SWTOR looks fantastic.  FF XIV looks fantastic...  Aion did reasonably well. Maybe you should stop making posts. If everyone gave up on shit when someone else failed the world wouldn't progress. "

" You mean:
 
"Game Devs should just not bother to make bad MMOs"  If you think an MMO needs the numbers of WoW to be succesful then you're wrong. "

" @jozzy: But the difference with MMOs is the monthly fee.  People are a lot more likely to play a game that's not GTA, Call of Duty, if there is no monthly fee attached.  That's an entrance barrier already. "

relying on the subscription model is not always the best thing. Which is what I like about guild wars 2 which is also a really fun game buy then play with no other fees.

People should stop making terrible MMOs. It doesn't take Nostradamus to tell us that APB was gonna tank. The game itself was awful.

" @christ0phe said:

" @jozzy: But the difference with MMOs is the monthly fee.  People are a lot more likely to play a game that's not GTA, Call of Duty, if there is no monthly fee attached.  That's an entrance barrier already. "

Yeah, it really held WoW back, those subscription fees / sarcasm  Like others have said, if you make a decent mmo that is different enough from WoW, it can be profitable. Also, not all profitable mmo's these days use subs, I think a lot of newer mmo's are looking with interest at the f2p, micro payment structure that seems to be succesfull for games like D&D. "

So you're saying that only Blizzard should be allowed to make MMOs? Hm... That makes sense.

The problem is not with them making MMOs, it's the business decisions they make going into it.

" So you're saying that only Blizzard should be allowed to make MMOs? Hm... That makes sense. "

I find MMOs suuuper boring. But the rest of the world can carry on playing them. Still, I don't see any point in them .

don't make MMOs if you have no fucking idea how to

HOLY SHIT MASS EFFECT DIDN'T SELL AS WELL AS HALO, NO ONE SHOULD MAKE SCI FI ACTION GAMES UNLESS YOU'RE BUNGIE

One of the big problems is that developers and publishers are measuring themselves against WoW. Such an enormous chunk of the WoW player-base are not actually gamers. You know, they're your mom or the dude in the office next to you who saw a Mr. T commercial, or the hot girl who thinks she's a major hard core geek, because she spends her time wandering around and chatting in WoW (and only WoW... plus maybe Farmville). Therefore, they need to scale their expectations down to a chunk of the actual gamer market. 
 
Second, they need to stop just re-skinning WoW. Look at what places like CCP are doing with EVE-Online. Make games more than a different style of Orc in yet another WoW interface. Make them more than just a single player RPG that you play in the same world as a million other people who are also playing a single player RPG. 
 
And, finally . . . there will always be the limitation set by the fact that Blizzard has sucked the air out of the room with WoW. People who play WoW are largely only interested in playing WoW. They're not looking forward to the next great MMO. They're not looking forward to ANY other MMO. WoW can stay as it is for another decade and they'll stick with it. They'll do the same missions a thousand times over, because they just don't care. 
 
I love EVE, but I no longer can make the commitment to it that I used to. That's a game that really requires you to swear off all other videogames, entirely. Hell, it almost requires you to swear off all other everything in your life, entirely. Just to keep up. 
 
I'm waiting for the next (first, really) great MMO. I played WoW for about six weeks after it launched and never touched it again. Every other MMO (even Guild Wars, which I enjoy) is just a reskin of that same "single player game in a multi-game universe" that every other game is. They may appear exciting and have an original world, but after a handful of hours, you've seen enough and you realize "wait . . . this is just that OTHER game with a different name!". 
 
MMOs have such an unending potential for originality, but they are a genre with perhaps the leaks varying originality of all.

Looking forward to Tera. 
 
Also WoW's graphics are older than time itself.

" I think the problem is that many MMO developers are putting all their eggs in one basket, they use these millions of dollars expecting a return. What they should do is look at how CCP or those indie MMO developers have done business: get a very basic game with as little the cost as possible, get the cult following that can help fund the game,then grow from there. It's much much safer and ends up making a much more community driven experience. "

" Seriously, I know all the MMOs out there have their core group of fans, but none have come close to the gargantuan success of WOW.  Alot of these MMOs become shells of their original game, see Star Wars Galaxies, or a ruined heap of ashes, see The Matrix Online.  These MMOs also cost developers millions of dollars to make, and as we found out today with APB, can often end up destroying a company with their inevitable downfall.  I find it hard to follow any developers logic in creating a new MMO, and their ability to recoup development costs through the game.  Just because WOW is successful does not mean MMOs will be successful.  The main problem with MMOs is that people usually have to pay a monthly fee.  People are unwilling to pay for substandard or uninteresting products, without seeing any significant return.  So guys, let's just stop, there have to be other and better games you can put your resources to. "

 Not going to dignify the OP with a response. Fuck! I just did by typing this didn't I? Dam it! Ok fine, bullet points.
 

• You don't need wow numbers to make money. 100k or so steady users at $15 a month is $1.5 million a month and $18 million a year. That's $18 million a year profit. Most companies are ecstatic when one of there games that they spent years developing does that once, let alone having a renewable income like an MMO to support and fund other projects with numbers like that every year with the same kind of development time as a one off product. Even if they take out $1-$2 million a year to pay a small staff to make new content to keep the users happy, that's still around $15 million profit.
• Sadly those kind of numbers resulted in many companies trying to make wow clones right after it's success in hopes of getting the wow users who were getting tired of the games setting but still liked the game. This is what created all of those WoW Clones.
• Pointing to a few failed games means nothing. With your logic I could point to a bunch of bad platformers or shooters and then say that's why they should never make a new Mario or shooter game. I of course won't do that because then that would make us both morons.
  
• There are millions of people who happily pay $15 a month, and as long as the developers update the game regularly they are happy to keep doing so. For those that don't want to pay $15 a month there are MMO's like Guild Wars that let you play for free, and every year or so they release an expansion pack to buy for $20-$30 instead of regular free updates like a payed one does. It works and it makes them money or they wouldn't be making a Guild Wars 2.

they should make the games small then expand if the game is successful. if they should make a huge MMO then it's going to end up failing because not enough money making.

whilst APB is probably the single biggest failure in gaming history.

Gamers need to lower their expectations for MMOs.  That's right, I'm blaming all of you!  Too many gamers look at WOW and then some upstart and say, "It's a WOW clone".  But, then if someone tries something different, they get criticized for not feeling like an MMO.  Gamers then say, "I'm going back to WOW" and the new project dies before it even had time to evolve.   Everything doesn't come out stellar right from the gate.  Hell, even WOW was a troubled crap hole when it began.   But, when it comes to MMOs we have these elevated expectations that all the good things found in WOW should be in every new MMO plus more since it's new.  
 
Gamers need to give new games a chance to mature before jumping off like rats from a sinking ship.  And, to insure that they don't abandon everything a month out of retail, publishers need to lower the monthly charge for their games.  Somewhere between $5 and $10 would be appropriate, I think for that initial period.  Reward gamers who stick with the game, too by extending the lower price when the new subscription price is eventually raised.  Yep, publishers should charge more when the game is good and less when it is bad (aka incomplete). 

" Gamers need to lower their expectations for MMOs.  That's right, I'm blaming all of you!  Too many gamers look at WOW and then some upstart and say, "It's a WOW clone".  But, then if someone tries something different, they get criticized for not feeling like an MMO.  Gamers then say, "I'm going back to WOW" and the new project dies before it even had time to evolve.   Everything doesn't come out stellar right from the gate.  Hell, even WOW was a troubled crap hole when it began.   But, when it comes to MMOs we have these elevated expectations that all the good things found in WOW should be in every new MMO plus more since it's new.    Gamers need to give new games a chance to mature before jumping off like rats from a sinking ship.  And, to insure that they don't abandon everything a month out of retail, publishers need to lower the monthly charge for their games.  Somewhere between $5 and $10 would be appropriate, I think for that initial period.  Reward gamers who stick with the game, too by extending the lower price when the new subscription price is eventually raised.  Yep, publishers should charge more when the game is good and less when it is bad (aka incomplete).  "

" @Jimbo said:

whilst APB is probably the single biggest failure in gaming history.

I'm fairly sure ET is a bigger failure than APB by far. "

i had hope for aion last year that game broke my heart, but im going to give the old republic a chance just cause i trust that bioware hopfully wont fuck me over.

You'll change your tune when my Garfield & Friends MMO drops next Summer.

" @Laketown said:

" @Jimbo said:

whilst APB is probably the single biggest failure in gaming history.

I'm fairly sure ET is a bigger failure than APB by far. "

In terms of wider impact maybe, but at least Atari still existed after ET.  APB just burned $100m and nuked the company. "

I would generally agree with the OP in that most companies are foolish to make the attempt.  In the end it comes down to bad decisions but not all companies are capable of making the right decisions.
 
@crusader8463 said:

You don't need wow numbers to make money. 100k or so steady users at $15 a month is $1.5 million a month and $18 million a year. That's $18 million a year profit. Most companies are ecstatic when one of there games that they spent years developing does that once, let alone having a renewable income like an MMO to support and fund other projects with numbers like that every year with the same kind of development time as a one off product. Even if they take out $1-$2 million a year to pay a small staff to make new content to keep the users happy, that's still around $15 million profit.

FF XIV looks fantastic...

" Guild Wars 2 looks fantastic. SWTOR looks fantastic.  FF XIV looks fantastic...  Aion did reasonably well. Maybe you should stop making posts. If everyone gave up on shit when someone else failed the world wouldn't progress. "

" I would generally agree with the OP in that most companies are foolish to make the attempt.  In the end it comes down to bad decisions but not all companies are capable of making the right decisions.
 
@crusader8463 said:

You don't need wow numbers to make money. 100k or so steady users at $15 a month is $1.5 million a month and $18 million a year. That's $18 million a year profit. Most companies are ecstatic when one of there games that they spent years developing does that once, let alone having a renewable income like an MMO to support and fund other projects with numbers like that every year with the same kind of development time as a one off product. Even if they take out $1-$2 million a year to pay a small staff to make new content to keep the users happy, that's still around $15 million profit.

It's not profit.  You forget the development costs of the game itself, which is in the MANY tens of millions, if not several hundred.  That means they'll have to retain a relatively large userbase for multiple years... "

I agree.  I think it makes much more sense to create Diablo-esque situations, where you have your character, and your game, and can host or join games online with friends or randoms.  Maintaining servers is costly, and trying to get people to pay a fee for something that isn't made by Blizzard or BioWare is near suicide.
 
I really wonder if RealTime Worlds thought they were ready to match up with those two.
 
Look at the Torchlight guys.  They were hoping to make an MMO, and I think the reality of the situation set in and now they're making Torchlight 2.

I would say that save for MMOs like EVE Online and WoW, it's just too expensive to do them unless you have a large, dedicated group of people playing. I doubt there's room for more than a few such games in the market, and WoW just sucks all the air out of the market for alternatives. EVE and WoW got an early lead in the market and have managed to secure solid bases of support, but their success makes it difficult for other games to compete.
 
I think the MMO genre is essentially broken, at least for non-hardcore MMO gamers (and by this, I mean gamers unwilling to put more than a half dozen hours into a game per week). MMOs are a niche market, and the market is dominated by a few games. Unless devs can come up with a way for other gamers to come in and play without feeling oppressed by the options and highly-leveled other characters, there's little hope for new games to enter the market. And to be honest, if you remove the obstacles to average gamers entering the MMO market, typical MMO gamers simply won't like it. It's kinda the nature of the sub-genre.
 
In short, something big needs to change if devs are going to have a chance at introducing a new MMO.

If Bioware does not dethrone wow then I think we as a society should just quit making mmo's cause that is the last studio that has a legit shot at it.
 
Also I find it almost hilarious looking at the Pax trailers how many of the Ui's are basically copy paste of the wow one, like the action bar in Rift planes of whatever is a fucking carbon copy, lazy assholes.