Game Programming discussion thread

i don't enjoy programming languages. i have made flash games. it's just alright for doing that. i made a simple batman quiz and a shooting target practice game. the target practice one took me a while to figure out how to make it. there were a lot of looking online for guides.

I updated the main page to show all the links that people have put up here, so it's easier to access all the information in this thread. I'll try and keep the links updated .. so if any of you have any other links to share, go right ahead. 
 
Also, for all the people trying out new stuff, if you get stuck, just give a shout out here and we'll try and get you out of your rut ! Happy coding people ..  
 
Thanks to everyone for contributing :)

I don't know if this counts as a game programming query, rather more of a general programming one, but I'd really like to know how I should go about finding a loop invariant. I know what a loop invariant is, but I just have no idea how to spot one in the examples I've read or how to distinguish one in my own programs. Any enlightenment on it would be greatly appreciated :)

This thread will probably end up being rather helpful to me. 
Next year I'll be starting a Computer Science degree at a university in the UK. Between now and then I'm going to attempt some basic game programming to give me a head start :) 
 
I'm planning, and hoping, to eventually get a job in the industry, fingers crossed I will eventually.

I love the idea of this thread im in the same interests as you...id like to make a game someday but as i have 0 creative/art skills thats hard to do haha

I love the idea of this thread im in the same interests as you...id like to make a game someday but as i have 0 creative/art skills thats hard to do haha

Also, I was thinking, if any of you have any indie projects or anything at all you'd like to showcase, let me know and I'd put it up on the main page.

I'm intrigued by this thread just because there are people interested in making games here it seems.  I don't know how relevant my own context is but I'm currently working on creating a 3D first-person game (first time I've ever done anything like this), though I've been thinking that I would probably make it in Source since I want to avoid having to create as many art assets as possible and since so many people already have access to it and so can easily play mods created with it.  I'm only at the design stage of gradually constructing the design document after spending little bits of time on it for the past number of months and I'm guessing it could easily take the next 1-2 years to complete as long as I keep at it.
 
In case I run into issues later down the line which might require programming expertise that I don't have, I'll keep an eye on this thread or any similar ones that might spring up.  If there's any threads out there on modding or even specific stuff on Source within the GB forums then I'd be interested in knowing - not my intention to post in the wrong place.

I think C# is the way to go. It's the newer of the languages
& has already built on top of everything that has come before
it.  I think Java is dead & C++ is great but still has its roots
stuck in UNIX, which isn't a bad thing if you already know
UNIX (or maybe do some perl programming for example).
But even so, most programmers are gonna write games
for the PC (to start) & for Microsoft for the most part.
 
My only problem with writing code is I don't have time to
play games.  They're both very time consuming & the amount
of time, money & commitment to game writing is steep. I
remember coming back from summer break back in college
& seeing a fellow student had wrote a whole game of a 
helicopter flying around the planet attacking stuff.  He was an
Alpha Geek, however, highly intelligent over normal humans &
most of the rest of us in the same courses. What
I did in that same time frame was play Star Control 2 &
some other games & enjoy myself.  I don't think that guy
ever became a game's programmer, but I'm sure he found
some kind of boring programming job in the private sector.
It's highly competitive though. Everyone has Masters degrees
& the folks in India can do it all for 25% of your salary.  Except
outsourcing hasn't applied too strongly to games programming
yet.  Game programming is still a Western industry...so far.

 I can only program a little action script, yeah pathetic I know, flash is a pretty much a dying platform, I tried learning other stuff like c++, I actually programed a little using an open source engine called panda3D, which uses python, but didn't got too far on it, I guess it just isn't my thing, but I find programming specially in games(arguably one of the most complex kind of programing) fascinating.

" I think C# is the way to go. It's the newer of the languages & has already built on top of everything that has come before it.  I think Java is dead & C++ is great but still has its roots stuck in UNIX, which isn't a bad thing if you already know UNIX (or maybe do some perl programming for example). But even so, most programmers are gonna write games for the PC (to start) & for Microsoft for the most part. "

Game programming is something I've been wanting to do, but I really want to get better at legitimate programming first before getting involved in stuff like that.

" @Lind_L_Taylor said:

" I think C# is the way to go. It's the newer of the languages & has already built on top of everything that has come before it.  I think Java is dead & C++ is great but still has its roots stuck in UNIX, which isn't a bad thing if you already know UNIX (or maybe do some perl programming for example). But even so, most programmers are gonna write games for the PC (to start) & for Microsoft for the most part. "

Do not listen to any of this. "

" @Lind_L_Taylor: All right. Before things get outta hand, I hope you calm down a little. It''s an internet forum for pete's sake .. and it's OK if someone disagrees with your opinion.  C# is a great language and is very useful in cases of rapid application development. But it has much of the same problems as very high level languages like Java have .. it gets slower the more complicated your computation becomes. This is not really a fault of the program .. it's just that such high level languages give you so many generalized tools and libraries that it gets more and more difficult to optimize as your code drives the hardware harder and harder (since most of the code is pre written in such languages).   C++ is pretty hard at the start for this very specific reason .. lack of standardization, having to write a lot of code yourself (though with the inclusion of STL a lot of things have changed). In any case, as long as your code is well within your hardware configs, it is much easier to develop in C#, but most game companies try and push the console hardware to it's limits, and the only way they do it is by optimizing their code. Just think .. the PS3 and the Xbox hardwares haven't changed over all these years .. and yet games have been steadily getting better over the years. Why ? The only reason is tighter code, more tricks and hoops being run over .. in short .. optimization.   Most of the industry would use C# to probably create toolkits which are extensions that are then used to integrate within the main code framework written in C++. So it definitely has an application to both. But saying that C++ is useless is a pretty bold statement.  Having said that, as Beatrice Hall once said, I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it ! :) "

" Also, I was thinking, if any of you have any indie projects or anything at all you'd like to showcase, let me know and I'd put it up on the main page. "

 Why not just use C instead of C++?  Seems that would be faster to rid yourself of the OO overhead stuff. "

" @Lind_L_Taylor said:

 Why not just use C instead of C++?  Seems that would be faster to rid yourself of the OO overhead stuff. "

 
Correct me if I am wrong, but C is not really an Object oriented language. You don't have classes and objects in it and there is really no concept of data abstraction. And yes, you are right about the readability factor. Seeing a bunch of *myArray = (int*) what-the-hell-is-going-on; isn't exactly pretty, but once you get the hang of it, it's very very powerful. When you start working on more and more complicated projects, I am sure you'd be pleasantly surprised by how good tight code might run within a fraction of a second rather than say, ten of them. I just recently worked on some AI code that literally took 10 minutes to run, until I made changes in 4 lines of code, and now it completes within 10 seconds. Also, the C++ community has been working hard to make C++ more accesible. Things like smart pointers and more automatic error handling is being introduced in the new C++0x standar, so hopefully it makes it easier for newbies to start coding. (But to be honest, I don't think it's gonna be that much different that what it is right now .. unless you already know your stuff in C++). But anyways, bottomline is,  C++ .. terrible at the start, but it's kinda worth the pain. 
 
Coming back to C# though, if you really think about it, most of the functions can be overridden. So if you are a super geek who actually knows all the code that runs in the background, you can totally override most of the functions and write your own implementation. Except there are two roadblocks .. one, most people don't really program on that low a level. And two, I'm sure some of the code is final, as in, you can't override those sections of the source code. 
 
@Joru: Yeah, I'm pretty stoked about the new C++0x, especially since they say that a better implementation of hashing is on it's way (and high time I say !), but I'm not entirely sure what other features are being included. In any case, can't be more mindfuck than right now right ?  :P :P  "

At the end of the day choosing between the C languages all comes down to the match of simplicity v control. While all the C languages have some form of control, having more of it means you have a better gauge as pertaining to performance. Especially in games where performance is absolutely key, i'd say it's up there with the gameplay if not more important and lower level languages give you that control. I mean:

- C is the least simple but probably the most powerful. This is due to the almost zero percent OO nature of the code and the functionality of the memory management but to people coming in recently C is the most hard to read and understand so takes more effort.
- C++ is almost the same as C in terms of both categories but becomes slightly easier to read and understand for newcomers. There is also way more graphical API support for C++ so when creating graphical interfaces etc this imo is the best choice.
- C# is a much bigger jump to simple than C to C++ is. C# is the the C languages equivalent of Java in that it uses a 'garbage collector' to manage memory and get rid of unrefenced parts of the code etc, so lack of control affects performance. The most easiest to read and understand and probably the most supported for newcomers.
- The wierd one is objective C (the iPhone uses it) in that it's like C# but it's almost impossible to read the way variables and methods are declared is probably the most wierd i've seen and i would not recommend this to people wanting to learn the fundamentals of programming. But integration in objective C is pretty cool.

Apple themselves got a pretty comprehensive site regarding iPhone programming and Objective C. I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if anyone else posted it but if you're interested it's over here:  http://developer.apple.com/devcenter/ios/index.action   
 
Also, if I'm remembering correctly, you can develop apps without paying 90 bucks, but you're limited to running them under the iPhone emulator. Haven't got that far myself in my forays of iPhone gaming programming though. Still working on the basics of Objective C.