Giant Bomb is under new ownership. Log in now to accept new terms and conditions and transfer your account to the new owner!

GamesRadar Interview With K&L Devs About Critical Reception

Avatar image for vaxadrin
Vaxadrin

2319

Forum Posts

1436

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 1

#1  Edited By Vaxadrin

Note: This Is Not A "Bash Gamespot In A Juvenile Way" Thread


There's a lot than can be discussed in regards to Kane & Lynch and the events that followed immediately afterwards.  An interview with one of the developers is up on GamesRadar.  Here's the text:


---

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/kane-lynch-how-it-feels-to-be-critically-panned/a-20080908102911734000

GamesRadar: On a personal level, how does it feel to have a game which you’ve put so much time and effort into be critically maligned upon release?

Jens Peter Kurup: I’ve had several sets of emotions in the last year. Just around launch I felt pretty confident and okay. The review scores that we had already seen at IO looked to be a tad lower than expected – some 8/10, some 7/10, but some 5/5’s as well. We also had a good feeling about some of the bigger sites because it seemed that the latest hands-on sessions had gone well, especially with the Fragile Alliance element of the game.

Even though we received nice scores in a lot of the mainstream and lifestyle press, the more specific gaming press started to give it mediocre scores, and we knew that we wouldn’t hit our Metacritic mark. That felt confusing and unfulfilling, but by and large I was still emotionally unaffected by the criticism. I agreed with the existence of most of the game's issues and I knew that it was all something we could deal with professionally when the team took the franchise forward.

Then GameSpot reviewed the game. And they didn’t like it one bit.

I’m not quite sure why, but I remember that review hit the team like a hammer. You can just 'absorb' a bad score but there was something in the tone of that review that was tough on people, and on me.

It’s a review that I would like to forget (like GamesRadar's, by the way) , but unfortunately the GameSpot review had its own wicked little life and Eidos, GameSpot and of course the game got entangled in what I guess is best described as a conspiracy theory. And if there’s anything the 'net loves, it’s a good conspiracy.

It was surreal to sit in Copenhagen and watch the game get shredded in forums for reasons and feelings that didn’t all seem entirely based on the game itself. I know this might sound like a sissy song of “Boo-hoo! This isn’t fair” and other unproductive thoughts, but you asked me how I felt and I did feel like that for a couple of weeks after the GameSpot review. Pathetic I know, but in glimpses I still feel it, because when I meet somebody who hasn’t played the game, I can be fairly sure that his or her opinion is based on the GameSpot review. It just won't go away.

Except for that, I feel fine today, and the franchise is doing well. Sales have been okay, the movie deal is moving along nicely, and most importantly we’ve learned a lot from K&L, and it seems that it’s all being put to use in our future products.

GR: How fair do you feel critic and gamer reactions were to Kane & Lynch? Were there any points you particularly agreed or disagreed with?

JPK: Critic reactions to the game have been harder than the gamer reactions, but in general I’ll call it fair. I do agree on most issues raised on the control scheme. In production the quality went up and down and it required daily maintenance, a sure telltale that some core mechanics need to be changed instead of tweaked. I regret that I wasn’t clear-sighted enough to make the design changes when we had the time. This experience has dramatically changed the way we review code internally. We test the products harder and earlier.

I do however not agree with the critics that simply just didn’t like the characters or the story. They didn’t like the characters as people and had problems relating to them. If you want to mirror your happy face in shining knight's armour then Kane and Lynch 1 isn’t the place to look, and people have every right to dislike that. I just don’t agree. I’m sick of likeable characters. I like Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven. I’m done with Mel Gibson in the Lethal Weapons.

That said, I would have liked to introduce a few redeeming moments earlier in the game. In K&L it doesn’t really happen until the last level, which is too late for most people.

I do think we received some unfair flack for a few weeks, and that it did taint the perception of the game somewhat, but that’s just how it is. It’s also a bit painful when a review thinks that a bug is a design decision. I know the player won’t know the difference and that the point is valid, but it still annoys me as a developer, maybe because it’s something that we could have done better.

On a boring number note, the Nielsen agency ran an online survey with some 900 participants or so after the release. The report is fairly critical on some of the same issues like control etc., but it’s worth noticing that the players enjoyed the game more than reviewers did. Of the buyers of the game, 2% did rate it as a poor game, 3% as fair, 25% as good, 44% as very good and 25% as excellent. Players rated it slightly more realistically but still way more positively than the reviews, and also more positively than I perceive the game personally.

GR: Do you feel there are any fundamental problems with the way games are reviewed? Is there anything that could be improved on the media side of things to make games reviews fairer?

JPK: I think most reviewers are doing a great job, and there are several who I trust when I buy games.

However there are a few tendencies in most reviews which are problematic. The first is the obvious problem of a grown-up reviewing a game for kids, or a hardcore gamer reviewing a game for the mass market. I think journalists should have the opportunity to see a focus group playing games, especially kids' games. They really do play some games in dramatically different manners than a 25-30 year-old game fanatic.

A second problem can be that just under the journalistic surface, reviews are not only business but also entertainment, and business and entertainment haven’t got a track record of being fair.

I personally like reviews written by (not just approved by) more than one journalist. Not sure it provokes a fairer review, but it’ll carry different opinions at least.

GR: The internet is obviously a powerful tool for building pre-release hype and awareness of a title, but it can also facilitate backlash bandwagons very easily. How positive and negative a factor do you think the internet is overall, and how careful do you feel you have to be about treading a line with it?

JPK: It did feel like K&L received some kind of backlash effect on being hyped a lot before release, but I can’t really judge to be honest.

To me, the positive sides of the 'net far outweigh the problems. It’s an incredibly important factor for us when we produce games since it gives us some bearing as to what catches peoples' imagination in a given concept. Having forums and fansites also accumulates an enormous amount of knowledge.

GR: How does negative criticism inform your design decisions on subsequent projects?

JPK: A lot. Unfortunately it affects it more than positive feedback I think, but it can be a great productive process.

It’s worth noticing that negative criticism has to be filtered very carefully before you start to act on it. Which parts should we fix to make the game better for the player and which parts should we fix to get better reviews? They’re not always the same, but unfortunately almost as important.

I think you’ll see IO as a very listening developer in the next releases, but keeping an edge to our products too. Because there’s a danger to reacting to negative criticism primarily; if you want to cook something that nobody dislikes, it’s going to be nobody’s favourite. It won’t be a Surf 'N' Turf, it’ll probably be a loaf of white bread. Very sellable, very boring, but I sure don’t dislike it.

---

So what do you guys think?  Why did Jeff's review bother them particularly more than other reviews, when the score was actually in line with most of the other critical outlets?  Gamespot certainly did have alot of advertising for the game slathered all over the site prior to the review.  Do you think blame for "the incident" should be placed on the developers, Cnet, Eidos, or all of the above?

Avatar image for pause
pause422

6350

Forum Posts

16

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2  Edited By pause422

I.......can't seem to care. The game sucked, they need to deal with it. Make a better one next time..don't whine and cry.

Avatar image for brukaoru
brukaoru

5135

Forum Posts

12346

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#3  Edited By brukaoru
Except for that, I feel fine today, and the franchise is doing well. Sales have been okay, the movie deal is moving along nicely, and most importantly we’ve learned a lot from K&L, and it seems that it’s all being put to use in our future products.
This experience has dramatically changed the way we review code internally. We test the products harder and earlier.
These two quotes just prove that when a game fails, companies will usually take the initiative and try to change the way they deal with their future products, and most likely turn out better products in the future. And the movie? Egh... No interest in that at all, personally.

As for the question, I think they were bothered by GameSpot's review the most because they had paid for so much advertising on the site versus other outlets, who gave the same range of scores, but probably most of those outlets didn't have as many ads for the game as GameSpot did.

I blame the entire incident on CNET, I think they are a company that does not like to upset their advertisers which lead them to alter the initial review. 
Avatar image for dualreaver
DualReaver

3790

Forum Posts

83

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 2

#4  Edited By DualReaver
brukaoru said:
"As for the question, I think they were bothered by GameSpot's review the most because they had paid for so much advertising on the site versus other outlets, who gave the same range of scores, but probably most of those outlets didn't have as many ads for the game as GameSpot did. "
I think the fact that Jeff would rather get fired than change his poor review of the game is probably what hurt.
Avatar image for brukaoru
brukaoru

5135

Forum Posts

12346

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#5  Edited By brukaoru
DualReaver said:
"I think the fact that Jeff would rather get fired than to change his poor review of the game is probably what hurt them."
Indeed. Kudos to Jeff for sticking up for his opinion.
Avatar image for jayge_
Jayge_

10269

Forum Posts

2045

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

#6  Edited By Jayge_

Fail @ both Bru and Dual, sorry buddies <3

Eidos were the ones behind the entire advertising stuff. The developers had the issue taken completely out of their hands. I think it was the resounding *slam* that seemed to resonate from Jeff's (damn negative) review that hit them hard. No other super-sites seemed nearly as harsh. Even the ones with lower scores. From what I remember, anyway. You've got to feel bad for the team. Their game is blamed for a beloved reviewer losing his job, and they had nothing to do with it.

As for their response and outlook after the game, I think that's great. They accepted the glitches and bugs and learned a lot from their mistakes (I hope). I would definitely be interested in future ventures from them.

My fiddy cents.

Avatar image for dualreaver
DualReaver

3790

Forum Posts

83

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 2

#7  Edited By DualReaver
=3
 I know they have nothing to do with the advertising. But for someone to rather lose their job then give your game a decent rating is pretty harsh.
Avatar image for jayge_
Jayge_

10269

Forum Posts

2045

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

#8  Edited By Jayge_

Yeah. It kind of sends the message "yes, this game is so bad I'm not willing to rescind my stance". Although nobody should ever rescind their stance/statements when faced with that kind of stupid pressure.

Avatar image for biggerbomb
BiggerBomb

7011

Forum Posts

-1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

#9  Edited By BiggerBomb

I didn't read the whole article so sorry if I missed a critical piece, but I did read a nice chunk of what was there.

I think that GS fucked Jeff over; HOWEVER, I think that this was not the fault of the developers of K&L and those who put hard working hours into it. This game that I have not played, simply because it does not interest me, seems to have been the brunt of criticisms and hatred that in no way pertain to the game's merit itself. Merit is all that a game's success should be based on. Not hype, not publisher/developer history, and definitely not controversy.

Maybe the game really is crap, but it wasn't given a fair shot.

Avatar image for mspixel
Mspixel

7

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10  Edited By Mspixel

I really can't stand it when game developers complain about critical reviews. Just man up and do better next time. Jens Peter Kurup and the rest of his team should just be honest about the sour grapes they had over not being able to sway a reviewer with advertising dollars. Those guys got paid to make the game. No one owes them a positive review for a lackluster game.

Avatar image for mspixel
Mspixel

7

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By Mspixel

I really can't stand it when game developers complain about critical reviews. Just man up and do better next time. Jens Peter Kurup and the rest of his team should just be honest about the sour grapes they had over not being able to sway a reviewer with advertising dollars. Those guys got paid to make the game. No one owes them a positive review for a lackluster game.

Avatar image for jayge_
Jayge_

10269

Forum Posts

2045

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

#12  Edited By Jayge_
Mspixel said:
"I really can't stand it when game developers complain about critical reviews. Just man up and do better next time. Jens Peter Kurup and the rest of his team should just be honest about the sour grapes they had over not being able to sway a reviewer with advertising dollars. Those guys got paid to make the game. No one owes them a positive review for a lackluster game."
Maybe you should like... read the article?
Avatar image for oni
Oni

2345

Forum Posts

5885

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 26

User Lists: 12

#13  Edited By Oni

Uh I am pretty sure no one at CNET came to Jeff and said, "hey change this review or you're fired." He just was, and we don't actually know that it was only because of this review. I think it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. But let's not start on this train of discussion as I just know it will go bad places.

Anyway from what I've played of Kane & Lynch I mostly agreed with Jeff's review. The characters are just not likeable. You can make an anti-hero character and yet still make him likeable, hell, that's how I feel about agent 47 in IO's other series, for christ's sake. The swearing is excessive and makes the dialogue feel like it was written by a 16-year old. And worst of all, the shooting mechanics are just plain bad, and that's the deal breaker, it's a shooting game. It feels like the mechanics were lifted straight out of Hitman. But Hitman was a stealth series, so slightly off-base shooting mechanics weren't so bad for that. They just did not feel satisfying at all. But I think Jens acknowledged that, in his comment about changing game mechanics entirely rather than just tweaking them. This is one of those cases.

I think the Gamespot review bothered them so much because Jeff just totally didn't sugarcoat his issues with the game. Using terms like "ugly" really makes it hit home.

EDIT: Mspixel posted before me, but I have to respond. Way to fail. Like, completely. First of all, he wasn't complaining about the reviews, he was ASKED how he felt about those reviews and he responded. Second of all, do you really think the developer themselves actually deal with the advertising stuff related to the game? No, no and no. That's the publisher's job, Eidos in this case. So, long story short, that's a bunch of extremely ignorant comments you made.

Avatar image for jayge_
Jayge_

10269

Forum Posts

2045

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

#14  Edited By Jayge_
Oni said:
"
EDIT: Mspixel posted before me, but I have to respond. Way to fail. Like, completely. First of all, he wasn't complaining about the reviews, he was ASKED how he felt about those reviews and he responded. Second of all, do you really think the developer themselves actually deal with the advertising stuff related to the game? No, no and no. That's the publisher's job, Eidos in this case. So, long story short, that's a bunch of extremely ignorant comments you made."
C'mon Oni, it was her first post. No need to get the grill burning that hot XD
Avatar image for oni
Oni

2345

Forum Posts

5885

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 26

User Lists: 12

#15  Edited By Oni

THERE ARE NO GIRLS ON THE INTERNET

Also I regret nothing!

Avatar image for vaxadrin
Vaxadrin

2319

Forum Posts

1436

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 1

#16  Edited By Vaxadrin
Oni said:
"THERE ARE NO GIRLS ON THE INTERNET

Also I regret nothing!"
Eidos is just paying someone to pose as a girl on GB and use Tomb Raider avatars.
Avatar image for mspixel
Mspixel

7

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#17  Edited By Mspixel
Oni said:
"Uh I am pretty sure no one at CNET came to Jeff and said, "hey change this review or you're fired." He just was, and we don't actually know that it was only because of this review. I think it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. But let's not start on this train of discussion as I just know it will go bad places.

Anyway from what I've played of Kane & Lynch I mostly agreed with Jeff's review. The characters are just not likeable. You can make an anti-hero character and yet still make him likeable, hell, that's how I feel about agent 47 in IO's other series, for christ's sake. The swearing is excessive and makes the dialogue feel like it was written by a 16-year old. And worst of all, the shooting mechanics are just plain bad, and that's the deal breaker, it's a shooting game. It feels like the mechanics were lifted straight out of Hitman. But Hitman was a stealth series, so slightly off-base shooting mechanics weren't so bad for that. They just did not feel satisfying at all. But I think Jens acknowledged that, in his comment about changing game mechanics entirely rather than just tweaking them. This is one of those cases.

I think the Gamespot review bothered them so much because Jeff just totally didn't sugarcoat his issues with the game. Using terms like "ugly" really makes it hit home.

EDIT: Mspixel posted before me, but I have to respond. Way to fail. Like, completely. First of all, he wasn't complaining about the reviews, he was ASKED how he felt about those reviews and he responded. Second of all, do you really think the developer themselves actually deal with the advertising stuff related to the game? No, no and no. That's the publisher's job, Eidos in this case. So, long story short, that's a bunch of extremely ignorant comments you made."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're totally welcome to your own opinion. I read the article all the way through. I thought this part was lame:  "I’m not quite sure why, but I remember that review hit the team like a hammer. You can just 'absorb' a bad score but there was something in the tone of that review that was tough on people, and on me."

It just smacks of complaining. How can one review 'hit the team like a hammer'? My point is that he got paid to do his job. People reviewed the game as they saw fit. No one owes him and his team a positive opinion about the K&L. I'm glad he admitted his team's failure to carefully review the code. But this incident is one of many that signal the perverse relationship between game publishers and game reviewers. I don't trust reviews from the mainstream press for that reason. I find many of them to be inflated circle jerks that contribute to this increasingly held perception of these two parties. I'm not alone in thinking this.

You made a good point about advertising. That's usually handled by an outside pr firm or an in-house agency. So I concede there.  I still think the developers should grow a pair  :)

@Jayge: I can take a good burn any day.
@Oni: Why would a girl be on the internet? Like omigod they don't exist here.






Avatar image for chililili
chililili

1432

Forum Posts

5932

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 7

#18  Edited By chililili
Mspixel said:
"Oni said:
"Uh I am pretty sure no one at CNET came to Jeff and said, "hey change this review or you're fired." He just was, and we don't actually know that it was only because of this review. I think it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. But let's not start on this train of discussion as I just know it will go bad places.

Anyway from what I've played of Kane & Lynch I mostly agreed with Jeff's review. The characters are just not likeable. You can make an anti-hero character and yet still make him likeable, hell, that's how I feel about agent 47 in IO's other series, for christ's sake. The swearing is excessive and makes the dialogue feel like it was written by a 16-year old. And worst of all, the shooting mechanics are just plain bad, and that's the deal breaker, it's a shooting game. It feels like the mechanics were lifted straight out of Hitman. But Hitman was a stealth series, so slightly off-base shooting mechanics weren't so bad for that. They just did not feel satisfying at all. But I think Jens acknowledged that, in his comment about changing game mechanics entirely rather than just tweaking them. This is one of those cases.

I think the Gamespot review bothered them so much because Jeff just totally didn't sugarcoat his issues with the game. Using terms like "ugly" really makes it hit home.

EDIT: Mspixel posted before me, but I have to respond. Way to fail. Like, completely. First of all, he wasn't complaining about the reviews, he was ASKED how he felt about those reviews and he responded. Second of all, do you really think the developer themselves actually deal with the advertising stuff related to the game? No, no and no. That's the publisher's job, Eidos in this case. So, long story short, that's a bunch of extremely ignorant comments you made."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're totally welcome to your own opinion. I read the article all the way through. I thought this part was lame:  "I’m not quite sure why, but I remember that review hit the team like a hammer. You can just 'absorb' a bad score but there was something in the tone of that review that was tough on people, and on me."

It just smacks of complaining. How can one review 'hit the team like a hammer'? My point is that he got paid to do his job. People reviewed the game as they saw fit. No one owes him and his team a positive opinion about the K&L. I'm glad he admitted his team's failure to carefully review the code. But this incident is one of many that signal the perverse relationship between game publishers and game reviewers. I don't trust reviews from the mainstream press for that reason. I find many of them to be inflated circle jerks that contribute to this increasingly held perception of these two parties. I'm not alone in thinking this.

You made a good point about advertising. That's usually handled by an outside pr firm or an in-house agency. So I concede there.  I still think the developers should grow a pair  :)

@Jayge: I can take a good burn any day.
@Oni: Why would a girl be on the internet? Like omigod they don't exist here.






"Quotes seem to not be working at the moment her message is in the quote smae as mine
Avatar image for alexb
AlexB

1052

Forum Posts

1406

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 10

#19  Edited By AlexB

Wall of Text

Avatar image for jayge_
Jayge_

10269

Forum Posts

2045

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

#20  Edited By Jayge_

I made the same mistake when I first posted too, Chili. It's hard to recognize the difference in black-levels when you first get on. Jeez.

Avatar image for dualreaver
DualReaver

3790

Forum Posts

83

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 2

#21  Edited By DualReaver

P.S
You're doing it wrong. >:C

Avatar image for brukaoru
brukaoru

5135

Forum Posts

12346

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#22  Edited By brukaoru
Jayge said:
"Fail @ both Bru and Dual, sorry buddies <3

Eidos were the ones behind the entire advertising stuff. The developers had the issue taken completely out of their hands. I think it was the resounding *slam* that seemed to resonate from Jeff's (damn negative) review that hit them hard. No other super-sites seemed nearly as harsh. Even the ones with lower scores. From what I remember, anyway. You've got to feel bad for the team. Their game is blamed for a beloved reviewer losing his job, and they had nothing to do with it."
Lol. <3

Er, I guess what I said was confusing. :/ I think I meant to say: Eidos got upset, so I blamed CNET because they don't like their advertisers getting angry and CNET wouldn't stand up for Jeff's negative views of the game, instead they would show Eidos that they were sorry about the whole ordeal by firing Jeff, afterall CNET wants to keep their advertisers, right? ...Man, I'm confusing myself. :|

Avatar image for nasie
nasie

133

Forum Posts

431

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 2

#23  Edited By nasie

I don't know, the main problem I had with the game was the core shooting and the control felt kinda off at some points. But the game was descent and featured a lot of memorable moments, I have kinda funny feelings for it. I guess I liked it, and I really hope they make a follow up and correct some of the core mechanics. The main error I guess is that the game was kinda requiring you being patient wich doesn't pay off well with people completing 2-3 games a week.

And people don't forget that IO made Freedome fighters, wich was plain great action. 

Avatar image for mspixel
Mspixel

7

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#24  Edited By Mspixel
Jayge said:
"I made the same mistake when I first posted too, Chili. It's hard to recognize the difference in black-levels when you first get on. Jeez."
Oh I think I have it right now! Thanks Jayge ;)
Avatar image for jayge_
Jayge_

10269

Forum Posts

2045

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

#25  Edited By Jayge_
Mspixel said:
"Jayge said:
"I made the same mistake when I first posted too, Chili. It's hard to recognize the difference in black-levels when you first get on. Jeez."
Oh I think I have it right now! Thanks Jayge ;)"
No problem.
Avatar image for rowr
Rowr

5861

Forum Posts

249

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 3

#26  Edited By Rowr

I find it interesting that jeff's review hit them the hardest. I dont think it was the review, as much as the expectations they had built when they were dealing with gamespot.
From just what ive seen and heard I think there was some stuff going down.

Avatar image for thegreatguero
TheGreatGuero

8881

Forum Posts

918

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

#27  Edited By TheGreatGuero

Good interview. Though I wish they would have touched a bit more on the Gamespot review. I don't think his tone was too negative in the review, and really, were it not the events revolving around the review, it wouldn't necessarily be the review that gamers most readily associate with the game. All that drama really emphasized Jeff's honesty in his review, which made it stand out.

Avatar image for jayge_
Jayge_

10269

Forum Posts

2045

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

#28  Edited By Jayge_
Rowr said:
"I find it interesting that jeff's review hit them the hardest. I dont think it was the review, as much as the expectations they had built when they were dealing with gamespot.
From just what ive seen and heard I think there was some stuff going down."
It actually sounds like they developed a bit of "but the previews praised it..." syndrome. It's a really common thing to see among gamers, but it must hit developers pretty hard.