Have you ever played ICO? If you did, you're a misogynist.

Remember, Reddit literally paid this woman hundreds of thousands of dollars for this.

What a fantastic use of money. Bringing the fight to those racist old Japanese basta-oh god I can't even keep a straight face while typing it.

This thread is worse than the fucking tweet. She's entitled to her opinion, but you're twisting her words to make it seem far worse than it is.

@Terramagi said:

Remember, Reddit literally paid this woman hundreds of thousands of dollars for this.

The irony of that is not lost on me.

@Shady: You're right, it is laziness. But this laziness has engendered a skewed and sexist view of gender roles. There is a misconception that for a work to be sexist or contain sexist elements, then its author has to be knowingly sexist and purposely inserted said sexism in said work. This is not true. I won't take Fueda as an exemple because after reading his comments on why he made the protagonist of The Last Guadian a boy instead of a girl, I do believe that the guy is sexist, at the very least unconsciously. Take Miyamoto and Princess Peach. Another great exemple of a video game using simple tropes which have caracterized works of countless authors since the dawn of time: the knight and the princess. The deal is the same as in Ico. I don't believe for a second that Miyamoto is sexist; but whether or not he is is irrelevant to the matter. The fact is, the games he made still use the concept of the helpless female princess who must be rescued by the brave chivalrous man. Regardless of the intent behind such games, they are still perpetuating the notion that helpless females must be rescued by none other than men. It is a sexist notion, because it makes use of predefined gender roles which in no way reflect our reality.

Somehow I miss forum arguments about which console was superior. For some reason I feel like console fanboyism picks fewer nit-picky details out of thin air than this.

@AuthenticM said:

@Shady: You're right, it is laziness. But this laziness has engendered a skewed and sexist view of gender roles. There is a misconception that for a work to be sexist or contain sexist elements, then its author has to be knowingly sexist and purposely inserted said sexism in said work. This is not true. I won't take Fueda as an exemple because after reading his comments on why he made the protagonist of The Last Guadian a boy instead of a girl, I do believe that the guy is sexist, at the very least unconsciously. Take Miyamoto and Princess Peach. Another great exemple of a video game using simple tropes which have caracterized works of countless authors since the dawn of time: the knight and the princess. The deal is the same as in Ico. I don't believe for a second that Miyamoto is sexist; but whether or not he is is irrelevant to the matter. The fact is, the games he made still use the concept of the helpless female princess who must be rescued by the brave chivalrous man. Regardless of the intent behind such games, they are still perpetuating the notion that helpless females must be rescued by none other than men. It is a sexist notion, because it makes use of predefined gender roles which in no way reflect our reality.

How is it sexist to tell a story in which a man rescues a woman? Would it be no less sexist if a story were to feature a woman rescuing a man? Where does one draw the line on what is acceptable?

The trope of the damsel-in-distress is not in itself inherently sexist. And it is perfectly possible to use the trope while also allowing the damsel in question to display a strength of personality and character.

i haven't played the game but i have it. i bought ico and shadow of the colluses HD collection.

While I'm not sure Ico in particular is the worst offender, it does play up the damsel in distress thing pretty hard. It isn't really that this game on it's own is so offensive that it somehow deserves harsher criticism than others, but it does portray women in a way that is extremely problematic given the lack of other narratives. I agree with the point she's trying to get at, but I don't think her sensationalism is the best way to open such a dialog.

I suppose everyone who played Super Mario Bros. is a Misogynist as well?

@Demoskinos: If you don't play a woman in any game that gives you the choice, you are sexist. If you don't pursue the same-sex romance options in an rpg, you are a homophobe. Shame. On. You.

@ThePaleKing: Well at least I'm covered on one of those bases. My female characters always hook up with other females. =p

@clstirens said:

Somehow I miss forum arguments about which console was superior. For some reason I feel like console fanboyism picks fewer nit-picky details out of thin air than this.

Such is the plight of video games being part of the mainstream.

The same people who tell Ebert that video games are art, can't use "but they're just stupid games!" as a shield when they're judged as art. Tropes being examined and commented upon are just part of the process. Just because Ico could be/is sexist, doesn't make it bad. Just means it may or may not contain sexist tropes.

But yeah. Screw the nintendorks. Sega for life. EARTHWORM JIM IS BETTER ON THE GENESIS. NO ONE DENIES THIS.

You're both missing the point. It's not about a few games that present women poorly. It's about an industry wide lack of positive female narrative. Playing up tropes as story devices is expected, they're tropes for a reason. What's bad is the seeming inability to escape those tropes. The constant repetition ingrains them to the point of alienation, and the lack of positive female narrative means those who are alienated by the constant barrage of negative portrayal don't really have another (good) game to turn to. It's essentially the industry, and to some extent the player base, saying that they don't want intelligent women playing their games.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

I'm okay with that.

If I think my neighbor is being abused by her boyfriend, I clearly shouldn't do anything because I would be putting her in the role of damsel in distress, and that would make me sexist.

@Terramagi said:

https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/240232261180588032

Nothing bad can possibly come from this. Surely not a bunch of women-hating scumbags coming to defend their rape simulator.

She said that it was a rape simulator where?

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

You're both missing the point. It's not about a few games that present women poorly. It's about an industry wide lack of positive female narrative. Playing up tropes as story devices is expected, they're tropes for a reason. What's bad is the seeming inability to escape those tropes. The constant repetition ingrains them to the point of alienation, and the lack of positive female narrative means those who are alienated by the constant barrage of negative portrayal don't really have another (good) game to turn to. It's essentially the industry, and to some extent the player base, saying that they don't want intelligent women playing their games.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

You really have not found anyone in the entire medium? The industry does have a problem with this but I find it hard to believe you havn't found some character somewhere to relate to.

Well if it wasn't for "sexism" there wouldn't be video games for her to complain about. If Mario and Link never embarked on their quest to save their respective princess, the video game industry could very possibly have been doomed.

@Aegon said:

Well if it wasn't for "sexism" there wouldn't be video games for her to complain about. If Mario and Zelda never embarked on their quest to save their respective princess, the video game industry could very possibly have been doomed.

You can remake those games without Zelda or Princess Peach and they'd pretty much play exactly the same. Also, Ms. Pac-Man did alright.

@gladspooky said:

@Aegon said:

Well if it wasn't for "sexism" there wouldn't be video games for her to complain about. If Mario and Zelda never embarked on their quest to save their respective princess, the video game industry could very possibly have been doomed.

You can remake those games without Zelda or Princess Peach and they'd pretty much play exactly the same. Also, Ms. Pac-Man did alright.

Yeah, you can remake them, but you can't travel back in time and make Miyamoto change something he hasn't for nearly 30 years.

Oh boy...

I missed the part where ICO was a metaphor for the way we should run modern culture.

Also someone should make a Twitter like "Masculinity Monthly" and just troll that account.

The reason that so many stories are told from a male perspective is because they're the ones playing, and the developers are trying to make a connection between the protagonist and the player.

So which of these statements is true?

a) If more women played action games there would be more female protagonists

OR

b) If there were more female protagonists more women would play action games

You guys are way off, this game isn't sexist at all.

It is racist as fuck, though.

C'mon, a bunch of loathsome black devils are coming to take your white woman away?! Puh-leeze.

Brace yourselves, someone said sexism on the internet.

12,748 posts incoming.

@doosmacleod said:

EARTHWORM JIM IS BETTER ON THE GENESIS. NO ONE DENIES THIS.

This guy. This guy knows what's up.

As someone who is incredibly analytical about these things (so much so, I am actually considered to be overly-sensitive/cautious when it comes to these topics as I like to make sure media at least trys to rule out any possibility of unintentionally insulting people) but this is ridiculous. In fact, this isn't just blowing it out of proportion; it is completely misunderstanding and insulting to Japanese values, morals and cultural heritage. It is just completely misunderstanindg the point of view and influences of an entire works origins.

oh nooo someone has different opinions than you

I have an idea let's make up shit she didn't say to make my opinion the right one!

agree with her or not (she has an argument whether you want to admit it or not; a good argument, well, let's wait until she goes beyond 200 characters) but get over yourself

@gladspooky: the one that bought@gladspooky said:

@Slag said:

Isn't the main villain in ICO a pretty dang powerful woman?

http://www.giantbomb.com/the-queen/94-21831/

Just sayin'

She's the villain of exactly two people. A boy and a girl. And which one defeats her, again?

The one who brought a weapon.

@kashif1 said:

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

You're both missing the point. It's not about a few games that present women poorly. It's about an industry wide lack of positive female narrative. Playing up tropes as story devices is expected, they're tropes for a reason. What's bad is the seeming inability to escape those tropes. The constant repetition ingrains them to the point of alienation, and the lack of positive female narrative means those who are alienated by the constant barrage of negative portrayal don't really have another (good) game to turn to. It's essentially the industry, and to some extent the player base, saying that they don't want intelligent women playing their games.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

You really have not found anyone in the entire medium? The industry does have a problem with this but I find it hard to believe you havn't found some character somewhere to relate to.

Not many lower class native American/Caucasian mixed characters in gaming, and I'm pretty sure natives are one of the groups with the least representation and almost all of it being some sort of crazy stereotype.

@Soapy86 said:

@doosmacleod said:

EARTHWORM JIM IS BETTER ON THE GENESIS. NO ONE DENIES THIS.

This guy. This guy knows what's up.

I loved Earthworm Jim, and didn't even KNOW there was a Genesis version.

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

@kashif1 said:

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

You're both missing the point. It's not about a few games that present women poorly. It's about an industry wide lack of positive female narrative. Playing up tropes as story devices is expected, they're tropes for a reason. What's bad is the seeming inability to escape those tropes. The constant repetition ingrains them to the point of alienation, and the lack of positive female narrative means those who are alienated by the constant barrage of negative portrayal don't really have another (good) game to turn to. It's essentially the industry, and to some extent the player base, saying that they don't want intelligent women playing their games.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

You really have not found anyone in the entire medium? The industry does have a problem with this but I find it hard to believe you havn't found some character somewhere to relate to.

Not many lower class native American/Caucasian mixed characters in gaming, and I'm pretty sure natives are one of the groups with the least representation and almost all of it being some sort of crazy stereotype.

connor from AC3?

@Beforet said:

The tweet has some bite to it, but this thread is just dumb and sensational.

@Little_Socrates said:

@Beforet said:

The tweet has some bite to it, but this thread is just dumb and sensational.

At least, as much bite as a tweet written specifically to be controversial can be. Tweets like that only come off as empty until there's something substantial to back them up. And in that case, it's better to have the substance ready before tweeting.

@Animasta: My main problem with her is that she just stands back pointing fingers saying "Hey look at how sexist this thing is". She never offers a solution to the problem or at the very least, give an example of a positive female character. Nor does she even give any example of positive female traits.

@Hailinel said:

@Little_Socrates said:

@Beforet said:

The tweet has some bite to it, but this thread is just dumb and sensational.

At least, as much bite as a tweet written specifically to be controversial can be. Tweets like that only come off as empty until there's something substantial to back them up. And in that case, it's better to have the substance ready before tweeting.

She may write more, who knows, but I see your point. I dunno about the "better to have the substance ready" bit, though, as using Twitter to simply vent can help a lot in and of itself.

ICO needed more hot sluts.

@blackichigo said:

@Animasta: My main problem with her is that she just stands back pointing fingers saying "Hey look at how sexist this thing is". She never offers a solution to the problem or at the very least, give an example of a positive female character. Nor does she even give any example of positive female traits.

she's given plenty of examples of positive female characters afaik. I can't remember because I have a bad memory but I'm sure they're there.

@Little_Socrates said:

@Hailinel said:

@Little_Socrates said:

@Beforet said:

The tweet has some bite to it, but this thread is just dumb and sensational.

At least, as much bite as a tweet written specifically to be controversial can be. Tweets like that only come off as empty until there's something substantial to back them up. And in that case, it's better to have the substance ready before tweeting.

She may write more, who knows, but I see your point. I dunno about the "better to have the substance ready" bit, though, as using Twitter to simply vent can help a lot in and of itself.

It's better to mount an argument when you already have the details laid out than to write an attention-grabbing tweet and then pump out something meant to justify that stance.

@Slab64 said:

You guys are way off, this game isn't sexist at all.

It is racist as fuck, though.

C'mon, a bunch of loathsome black devils are coming to take your white woman away?! Puh-leeze.

Shit just got real REAL quick.

@Animasta: I cant really argue with you there. If that is the the case, I haven't seen them.

@Animasta said:

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

@kashif1 said:

@A_Talking_Donkey said:

You're both missing the point. It's not about a few games that present women poorly. It's about an industry wide lack of positive female narrative. Playing up tropes as story devices is expected, they're tropes for a reason. What's bad is the seeming inability to escape those tropes. The constant repetition ingrains them to the point of alienation, and the lack of positive female narrative means those who are alienated by the constant barrage of negative portrayal don't really have another (good) game to turn to. It's essentially the industry, and to some extent the player base, saying that they don't want intelligent women playing their games.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

You really have not found anyone in the entire medium? The industry does have a problem with this but I find it hard to believe you havn't found some character somewhere to relate to.

Not many lower class native American/Caucasian mixed characters in gaming, and I'm pretty sure natives are one of the groups with the least representation and almost all of it being some sort of crazy stereotype.

connor from AC3?

aside from him, haven't different aspects of that identity been represented? There are a few very good lover class characters (niko bellec springs to mind). As for what I imagine are other aspects of that particular identity John Marston (okay two rockstar characters... that says a lot about them as a company) is one of quite a few characters that show the struggles of a person between two different worlds.

@Hailinel said:

@AuthenticM said:

@Shady: You're right, it is laziness. But this laziness has engendered a skewed and sexist view of gender roles. There is a misconception that for a work to be sexist or contain sexist elements, then its author has to be knowingly sexist and purposely inserted said sexism in said work. This is not true. I won't take Fueda as an exemple because after reading his comments on why he made the protagonist of The Last Guadian a boy instead of a girl, I do believe that the guy is sexist, at the very least unconsciously. Take Miyamoto and Princess Peach. Another great exemple of a video game using simple tropes which have caracterized works of countless authors since the dawn of time: the knight and the princess. The deal is the same as in Ico. I don't believe for a second that Miyamoto is sexist; but whether or not he is is irrelevant to the matter. The fact is, the games he made still use the concept of the helpless female princess who must be rescued by the brave chivalrous man. Regardless of the intent behind such games, they are still perpetuating the notion that helpless females must be rescued by none other than men. It is a sexist notion, because it makes use of predefined gender roles which in no way reflect our reality.

How is it sexist to tell a story in which a man rescues a woman? Would it be no less sexist if a story were to feature a woman rescuing a man? Where does one draw the line on what is acceptable?

The trope of the damsel-in-distress is not in itself inherently sexist. And it is perfectly possible to use the trope while also allowing the damsel in question to display a strength of personality and character.

There's nothing inherently sexist about it, but you have to look at in in a broader context. The number of stories told where the strong male rescues the weak female is staggeringly vast compared to stories where women rescue men. That's the point being made here. Mario saving peach isn't sexist, but it does reinforce sexist, false, and long standing gender roles. And you're right, it is possible to have the damsel be a strong and dynamic character and there are a bunch of works that do that and that's great! Ico is not one of them.

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

I missed the part where ICO was a metaphor for the way we should run modern culture.

All art and entertainment helps shape and is shaped by our culture.

@NoDeath said:

@Hailinel said:

@AuthenticM said:

@Shady: You're right, it is laziness. But this laziness has engendered a skewed and sexist view of gender roles. There is a misconception that for a work to be sexist or contain sexist elements, then its author has to be knowingly sexist and purposely inserted said sexism in said work. This is not true. I won't take Fueda as an exemple because after reading his comments on why he made the protagonist of The Last Guadian a boy instead of a girl, I do believe that the guy is sexist, at the very least unconsciously. Take Miyamoto and Princess Peach. Another great exemple of a video game using simple tropes which have caracterized works of countless authors since the dawn of time: the knight and the princess. The deal is the same as in Ico. I don't believe for a second that Miyamoto is sexist; but whether or not he is is irrelevant to the matter. The fact is, the games he made still use the concept of the helpless female princess who must be rescued by the brave chivalrous man. Regardless of the intent behind such games, they are still perpetuating the notion that helpless females must be rescued by none other than men. It is a sexist notion, because it makes use of predefined gender roles which in no way reflect our reality.

How is it sexist to tell a story in which a man rescues a woman? Would it be no less sexist if a story were to feature a woman rescuing a man? Where does one draw the line on what is acceptable?

The trope of the damsel-in-distress is not in itself inherently sexist. And it is perfectly possible to use the trope while also allowing the damsel in question to display a strength of personality and character.

There's nothing inherently sexist about it, but you have to look at in in a broader context. The number of stories told where the strong male rescues the weak female is staggeringly vast compared to stories where women rescue men. That's the point being made here. Mario saving peach isn't sexist, but it does reinforce sexist, false, and long standing gender roles. And you're right, it is possible to have the damsel be a strong and dynamic character and there are a bunch of works that do that and that's great! Ico is not one of them.

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

I missed the part where ICO was a metaphor for the way we should run modern culture.

All art and entertainment helps shape and is shaped by our culture.

Art is shaped by and shapes culture, yes, but the game does not advocate treating women as inferior beings.

I see the point she's trying to make, however troll-baitingly she went about it.

But seriously, attacking ICO? A game from god-damned 2002? There's surely a game released, say, in the past few years she could draw on. And there's a lot more compelling arguments to make for sexism in gaming--it exists and that discussion needs to be had. But Christ, is this the wrong way to go about things. ICO just seems like it's someone who's desperate to make a point/start shit, and that tweet comes off as such.

@Willtron said:

I see the point she's trying to make, however troll-baitingly she went about it.

But seriously, attacking Ico? A game from god-damned 2002? There's surely a game released, say, in the past few years she could draw on. Not to mention, yeah, story reasons and shit. And there's a lot more compelling arguments to make for sexism in gaming. ICO just seems like it's someone who's desperate to make a point/start shit, and that tweet comes off as such.

She has a massive stack of games she's going through for research, shes probably commenting as she goes.

How cute, she think we actually care about her opinion in ICO...

@MasculinityMaxx said:

MAX MANLY to the rescue!

The tables are turning, men. This shall not stand! Join the revolution

Soon we will sock it to 'em.

See now this is a twitter I can get behind. Giving it to them rough and dirty since... today?

How so? She finds the game sexist and is saying so. This doesn't seem that out of place for someone who has been making commentary about sexism in media. I fail to see how she is trolling. I do find it funny that people are taking the bait even though she probably didn't intend it.

While I'm not a female, as a minority I have a similar struggle with gaming. I've never found a video game character I can relate to and the lack of characters I can project on and attach myself to means that the majority of video games I enjoy are either extremely abstract or enjoyed in a strictly strategic or analytical way.

Isn't it equally as likely that the story is about showing compassion to other people and helping those in need? I don't remember much about the game but doesn't the main character get locked up by the people in his village because they think he's bad luck? Seems to me that it's pretty big of him to help out a complete stranger when I know that my faith in mankind would be pretty low at that point.