@sgtsphynx: the true answer is of course cake because only a monster would pick pie over cake.
You monster. Anyway, you are correct, I am arguing a very subjective thing, but my aim was not to sway opinions, merely to help someone understand why I use inverted controls and why it is incorrect to assume that someone using inverted y-axis should also use an inverted x-axis. As I said previously, this is rather in jest and I am vehemently opposed to people forcing their views on others, so I do my best to not do that.
I like inverted x for third person cameras and I'm wondering if Mario 64 just taught it to me that way. Inverted Y first and third person. I remember having real problems with inverted X on Sleepy Dawgs because the stupid damn game kept the x inverted when you went into fire mode with the aiming reticule. It was a madness beyond human understandings.
I could never finish The Thing on the xbox because it didn't have tidy inverted controls. About 4 control schemes all of them diabolical in nature.
Me and a friend pass a controller back and forth when we play through games. He's playing inverted and I'm not. WE CAN BE FRIENDS! THERE CAN BE PEACE! I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!
But seriously speaking, inverted controls are fucked up. You're not flying a dude. I mean, how would that even look. If you're going down that road, you might as well play Gears of War with a flight stick!
I am not trying to say one way or the other is "correct," it is you damn "normals" doing that (and a few of my fellow "inverters.")
My only objective here was to explain why it is wrong to assume that people using inverted y-axis should also use inverted x-axis. Plain and simple, use what you are comfortable with, don't care what other people use, and don't try to force other people to use your scheme.
Almost as bad as the controversy around GIF and JIF.
Except in that case, one is an image file, the other is peanut butter.
I tend to think of the camera as, you know, a camera. If it were on a tripod I would pull down to have the view go up, and pull up to have the view go down. Same with the horizontal axis, left to pan right, right to pan left. If something is moving in a 3D plane, then I don't see how the opposite makes sense. Then again, I'm not 100% positive what inverted controls actually are. I've played games where I've had to switch both x and y to inverted, some only y, and some have had the above control scheme on normal. Dude, whatever man.
Sounds like some right brain left brain stuff to be honest.
It doesn't matter which way it's done, what it comes down to is what you learned. For me, when I started FPS' with two analogs on GameCube with TimeSplitters 2, there was a good amount of time that I used inverted, but later on, I started using regular up goes up, down goes down, and that's how I play them now. I can't agree with anyone that says using inverted is better, because they aren't for me, but if it is for them, than whatever. Furthermore, I've never seen anyone say people should use X inverted, no matter what, that is weird, but if people like that, than again, alright...
But we're still all agreeing with the whole "fuck x-axis inverters" thing right? I just want to make sure we have come to a consensus on those crazy fuckers.
Nope. People that invert only the Y Axis are IINO's (Inverts in name only). Us pure breeds want nothing to do with those folks.
@sgtsphynx: I find major issues with your proposed argument. You claim that instead of treating the analog stick as a stick that sticks (sorry) out of the back of your head, we should be treating our heads as it they were the stick, wherein we would lean our heads left or right whenever the stick is pushed left or right. Here's the problem: video game cameras do not lean! The camera doesn't flop onto its side when we tilt the stick left and right in a video game! That is a violation about how video game cameras work! You point out that invert-y/normal-x matches up with how airplanes are controlled, but our heads are not entirely similar to aircraft. Yes, our heads and airplanes match up with regards to the y-axis, but as far as the x-axis goes it is yaw, not roll, that matters. You can only roll your head so far until it hits your shoulders.
Using controllers any way is still primitive; you may as well be a chimpanzee using a stick to eat termites. Combine the Oculus Rift with a Novint Falcon and P5 Glove and you have reached the Singularity, the melding of man and machine, you are now Man+, the perfect self-replicating cybernetic life form.
I'm a PC gamer, never had a console so to me joysticks on controllers always seemed like they'd follow the same control scheme as planes had. That being said, when i bought steam games that I consider to play better with a controller and I bought a 360 controller to play them with, I never once changed the control scheme to inverted. Because honestly, the switch isn't that hard and I'd rather not waste a few minutes adjusting control schemes everytime I play a new game.
In the end it doesn't matter to me one way or the other, lazyness conquers all.
@sgtsphynx: Here's the problem: video game cameras do not lean!
You're right, the cameras turn, but you apparently missed the part where I explained that your body would turn in the direction that your head leans. I feel todays bombcast had an email that explained my point a little more scientifically than I am capable of. Also, as I have said several times in this topic, this is how it works in my mind and I am merely trying to help other people to visualize.
When I first started playing 3D games, most of them were 3rd person (and a lot of starfox on N64) and the camera controls were inverted. I grew up like that, so when I got into first person games I always stuck with inverted, always making my own profiles at a friends house.
FLASH FORWARD...!
...TO DIRGE OF CERBERUS: FFVII!
I was with friends, we were all amped, bought the game, low-and-behold no inverted option.. AND it was 3rd person! Boy was I fumed... I tried to get the hang of it, I played with it, I stuck through it, but ended up being really naive and immature about it at that age. Went back to the store, asked for my money back, couldn't get it, so I took the disc out, bent it, and threw it at the rack behind the counter...
I don't know when, but at some point I looked back on that memory and decided that I needed to get with the norm, whether I wanted to or not, because if I didn't I may restrict myself to games... so I forced myself to play with non-inverted and have been playing like that ever since. On all 3rd person games, it its purely camera I still stick to inverted, but if it aims even in 3rd person I go right to non-inverted)
This is actually quite a lesson a lot of people need to learn growing up: Adapt and overcome adversity so that you may strive; in this case, keep entertained by games you would otherwise enjoy!
But seriously speaking, inverted controls are fucked up. You're not flying a dude. I mean, how would that even look. If you're going down that road, you might as well play Gears of War with a flight stick!
Crazy.
The thing is though, that some people actually do visualize a camera behind the screen.
Playing HD remakes of old games, what is 'inverted' or 'normal' for camera control seems to vary a hell of a lot compared to modern games. Just my two cents.
People saying this is a good argument for inverted..
This is THE argument for inverted. I don't actually picture how anyone immersing themselves in the game properly can be using "normal" controls.
If the USA had taught us anything in life, it's that being the "normal" as a part of the majority usually means your a moron. But hey at least your a moron along with everyone else.
@brendan: For me, looking up or down with just my eyes is only useful for slight sight adjustments. Since I am often wearing glasses, looking at anything near the ground or above my head with just eye movement would leave me looking below or above my glasses, and quite blind to (or at least with a very fuzzy image of) what I am trying to look at. I wonder how many inverters are people that usually wear glasses?
I'm inverted and proud. We need to set up a parade.
I've always used inverted Y axis. Don't know where it started but I'm too old to change.
To paraphrase a poem from the wall of my 5th grade social studies class : First they came for the Inverted Control Users... and I said nothing - for I was a Normal. I won't paraphrase the whole thing, but it doesn't end well.
@sgtsphynx: Here's the problem: video game cameras do not lean!
You're right, the cameras turn, but you apparently missed the part where I explained that your body would turn in the direction that your head leans. I feel todays bombcast had an email that explained my point a little more scientifically than I am capable of. Also, as I have said several times in this topic, this is how it works in my mind and I am merely trying to help other people to visualize.
Your body turns..? What are you even talking about, you inverted weirdo?
@sgtsphynx: Here's the problem: video game cameras do not lean!
You're right, the cameras turn, but you apparently missed the part where I explained that your body would turn in the direction that your head leans. I feel todays bombcast had an email that explained my point a little more scientifically than I am capable of. Also, as I have said several times in this topic, this is how it works in my mind and I am merely trying to help other people to visualize.
I appreciate that you're trying to help others understand how you view camera controls, but don't go around telling everybody that the image described is wrong. I happen to invert both axes, and that image is exactly how my mind processes the camera. As someone who has had experience in the past with inverted-y normal-x controls (damn you, Skyrim!) I find this setup to be inadequate when pushing the sticks in a direction that isn't cardinal. Pushing the stick NE to rotate the camera SE is a mind screw for me. It makes much more sense for a NE tilt to result in a SW rotation. At least when inverting both axes, you can tilt a stick one way and have the camera rotate the exact opposite direction, not at some weird 90 degree angle.
For everyone out there who is comfortable with inverted-y normal-x, I challenge you to tilt the camera in a non-cardinal direction, and tell me if it looks strange to you.
P.S. Everybody in this thread praising the op for being an advocate for inverted controls is comically missing the point.
@gruebacca: Fair enough, but I feel that the majority of inverters only invert the y-axis, and this is probably the way it works in their mind as well. Also, to me, pushing the stick forward and right to look down and right looks perfectly fine.
Now look here. I'll explain this to you normals in a way that might be more within your realms of comprehension.
When I want the Gimp to look up, I move my hand towards me and his head tilts upwards. When I want the Gimp to look down, I move my hand away from me and his head tilts down. When I want to let the Gimp turn his head to the left, my hand turns leftward, correspondingly when I wish the Gimp to look right, my hand turns to the right.
That hopefully puts it in a way you will all be familiar with, just think about how your owner's hand moves when they make you look around.
No one inverts a mouse. A mouse controls like a mouse. And after getting used to a mouse I control the stick like I would a mouse. There really isn't much more to it. Up is up dammit.
Except you're not controlling a head, you're pointing a camera in a direction. At least that's how I've always thought of it.
Pretty much this. I don't get how someone can look at a controller and think "this is an analog representation of the movement of the head of my avatar". It's a controller, it controls the viewpoint. If I want the viewpoint to move up I push it up, if I want it down I pull it down etc etc. There is no direct analog connection that directs your action into form, it's just a controller. And with that in mind the least complex explanation is the best.
What we're seeing right now with our eyes is what's inverted because that's how our eyes and brains work, ever look at a fresh infant and wonder what he's tripping on? We're born seeing things upside down and it takes about two weeks for the brain to adjust and see things "right" after inversion, dog knows if other species are born this way though. Can you feel the muscles moving your eyes around? Notice how up muscles bring your eyes up. We're naturally inverted in our brains. We do not need any extra inversion. If you invert the X axis you are a lizard person and need to report to the republican headquarters ASAP.
But pulling back on the stick = plane goes up = controls make perfect sense because I'm controlling a plane.
After hearing the latest Bombcast, there was a neurosurgeon from Toronto who wrote in and laid down some pretty good science on this matter. Seems it's simply a case of people thinking about either eye movements - where you move your eye up to look up (normals) or neck movements - where you move your neck back to look up (inverters).
The reason it's so natural for 'normals' to invert in flight games is because you aim the plane, not the character so you don't think about it other than knowning you're moving a stick, not your head.
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