I'm getting tired of GB's dismissive attitude towards the new consoles

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#1  Edited By Dragon_Puncher

So I was just listening to the newest Hotspot episode where Jeffs goes on a rant about how it's embarrassing that you can still choose between performance and graphics on the next gen consoles.

This leads to a longer discussion which once again ends on their overall dismissive attitude towards the consoles and basically asking why you would even buy them. An attitude that been prevalent in the whole crew (and Bakalar) for months now.

I realize the crew is primarily PC gamers now and Covid probably only enhanced this, since they are becoming more and more like streamers.. But it still seems pretty out of touch with what the consoles are actually offering.

Let's look at their primary points against the new consoles:

  • "They are going to be too expensive." Before prices were revealed this was one of the biggest ones on the podcasts. They (especially Brad if I remember correctly) were pretty clearly alluding to that these consoles would have to be at least $600 and nobody was going to buy them with Covid looming. Now when the prices were revealed to be much lower the argument disappeared, but the attitude remained.
  • "Just build a gaming PC instead." With one of their main points being that people don't have money of a new console because of the current economic situation, this just seems insane to me. On a recent Beastcast Bakalar even argued that a 3070 card at $500 is better value than a new console, which is just crazy. The fact of the matter is, compared to last generation the stuff you get in the new consoles is amazingly good value compared to if you had to build a comparable PC from scratch. There is a lot of breakdowns online (this is one of the easiest ones to follow), but the general consensus is that it would cost you at least $1.200 to build a PC equivalent to a PS5 and even more for an Xbox Series X. The value should be clear for anyone that actually looks at the specs. If we compare this to last generation, building an PS4 like PC cost you around $600-700. There is a good breakdown here, where they build a much stronger PC and if you remove Windows it is $692. And even with the value being much less, consoles still did great last generation.
  • "There is nothing to play on them." First of all, isn't that every non-Nintendo console launch? Didn't stop consoles before. Second of all, while I guess this might be true for Xbox, PS5 is launching with Demon's Souls, a highly anticipated game that looks amazing and unless something goes completely wrong, will be both a big critical and commercial success. And it also has Miles Morales the "sequel" to the fastest selling PS4 game of all time. But since that's cross-gen I guess it doesn't count.
  • "Not enough people own 4K TV's." Brad said that 4K adoption has been slower than anticipated on the Hotspot and I gotta say, I really can't find anything to back this up. On the contrary, 4K adoption seems quite fast and though we don't have up to date numbers, it sounds like it's around 50% in the USA now (here's] some data about global shipments). You could also argue, that new consoles will probably be one of the biggest factors getting people to replace their old TV's. And if you are buying a new TV at this point, with 90% certainty it's going to be 4K. Besides 4K I also think build in SSD's will mean a much bigger leap in technology and gameplay this generation than between PS3 to PS4. Which will probably lead to bigger sales yet again, but that remains to be seen of course.

Sorry for the long rant, this is just something that has annoyed me for some time and I needed to get of my chest. I don't mind the crew being more PC gamers, but I just wish they actually thought a bit outside their own bobble and realized what the consoles are offering. Hearing the same dismissive rants just gets tiring.

In these Covid times I think it's fair to say a lot of people are sitting at home needing entertainment. New consoles offer that and for a much smaller price than a PC. I wish the crew at least acknowledged some of that, instead of constantly being all doom and gloom. GB had many of the same feelings when we were going into the last generation and look how that went.

Edit:

So this thread kinda blew up.. After a lot of discussion and confusion, it became clear to me, that this OP is not articulating my thoughts and points well enough. So here’s an appendix in even more bullet points, to try and make that clear.

First of all, what I’m NOT trying to argue here:

  • Consoles are better than PCs. This is a thread about GB’s coverage, not a console wars argument. Everybody should game on whatever they want and there are luckily a wide range of options out there.
  • GB should be more excited for new consoles. I realize this can look counterintuitive against the thread title, but I do not feel that GB’s personalities should force excitement for new consoles on a personal level, that’s not what I’m asking.
  • They should agree with me. I have been a GB fan for over 10 years, there have been plenty of times where I have disagreed wildly with the crew, as most of you probably has as well. I don’t mind that, it’s part of the experience in some ways and I don’t mind not having the same opinion as them. And I don’t expect them to either change their mind or their content. This is just my opinion about what is being put out.

Then what the hell are you trying to say, I hear you shout? Well, how about some more bullet points:

  • Hours of constant dismissive agreement isn’t an interesting discussion. Simply put, the collective attitude of the crew towards these new consoles can be summed down to “Why would anyone buy these now?”, which I think lacks a lot of nuance and quickly becomes tiring to listen to. New console releases are some of the biggest events in the industry, but in spite of hours on content of the subject I have found GB‘s discussions here have rarely strayed from that attitude. Even when console prices were revealed to be quite a bit lower than the $600 speculated multiple times by GB, it was barely talked about. Even if they don’t feel this way themselves, simply for the sake of discussion I feel like GB would benefit a lot of someone took on a Devil’s Advocate kinda role from time to time. In the past this has often been Vinny, but even he isn’t really doing that with these new consoles.
  • There are plenty of good arguments to be made for next gen consoles. This is the crux of the original OP. Of course if someone is to play Devil’s Advocat you need some arguments to work with. I’m not saying the GB crew should be swayed by these arguments, but it would be a lot more interesting to at least have the discussion and hear Jeff and co. compare value in the box, look at launch titles vs last gen, etc. What we get instead is an overall highly dismissive attitude, that everyone in the room agrees on which, to me at least, doesn’t lead to a lot of interesting discussion. If they believe so strongly in it, at least talk more in depth about why. Not saying someone should bring a spreadsheet, but I wish they were more willing to challenge each other, especially around big events like a console launch. The attitude towards next gen in general also seems a bit out of touch to me, when people are at the same time going crazy over preorders among other things, but time will tell on that front.

That hopefully makes things clearer. You might disagree with what I’m putting out here and that’s totally fine, but at least we should agree on what we are actually talking about.

Avatar image for bigsocrates
bigsocrates

3418

Forum Posts

93

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2 bigsocrates  Online

I don't think they're being dismissive I just think they're not excited, and they're being honest about their reactions. I appreciate the honesty. As the GB crew has gotten older they've gotten less enthusiastic about video games and more analytical. You can see that in Jeff's reaction to the Tony Hawk remake. At the beginning of the site he would have been gushing about that game and how much he loved it and how obsessed he was. Now he's just like "yup, it's very very good" but doesn't have that enthusiasm. It makes sense. He has a wife and a kid, there's multiple disasters going on right now, video games just aren't his life anymore.

I think the same is true for the new consoles. They've discussed the plusses and minuses (they said that having the SSDs would be really great) but the launch lineups are kind of anemic and they're just not super excited about them. They're not going to get excited about them like they were about stuff in their 20s anymore. They'll cover them fairly and and try to give people honest opinions, but I don't know what you want from them other than their honest opinions.

What are they missing about the new consoles? Jeff is annoyed that he still has to balance performance vs image quality because he thinks that takes away one of the big benefits consoles have. Other people just aren't into Demon's Souls or Miles Morales so the launch lineup of the PS5 isn't speaking to them (and the Series X isn't launching with anything.)

I think they've been pretty fair, and if the machines are impressive and cool when they launch they'll say so. If you're looking for hype, that's just not what this site is anymore. It's a site run by middle aged enthusiasts, and it reflects that. I appreciate the honesty, and the more laid back vibe.

Avatar image for imhungry
imhungry

1428

Forum Posts

1241

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 3

You haven't really made any points about what the new consoles are offering though. A remake of Demon's Souls, as much as I personally might be excited about that, is hardly anything to set the world on fire. I think the site's been pretty fair in pointing out that if you already own a current gen console, there really isn't much right now that's enticing about these new consoles.

To your point, I'd argue that especially in these Covid times where many people are managing finances, the case for a launch console is more underwhelming than ever.

Avatar image for csl316
csl316

16051

Forum Posts

765

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

#4  Edited By csl316

I've kind of accepted that GB is in the "just buy a PC" camp. It sucks, honestly. That's why it's nice to hear Abby push back on that.

Sort of ridiculous to hear any price complaining when I hear how much a single component of a PC build is. And frankly, I work on a computer all day. It's the last place I want to play games on after work.

I don't need them to be excited, but it feels like they're inclined to believe that owning a gaming PC is the best way and any other way is inferior.

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@bigsocrates: I don’t want hype or excitement (If I did I wouldn’t have been a GB fan for 10 years), but I do want a discussion that is able to go a bit outside their own bubble.

I would argue it really isn’t very analytical, it is opinion instead of fact based discussion. And I wouldn’t even mind this, if there was at least one person willing to actually play devil’s advocate and see the positives in a new console. When everyone just dismisses them it gets tiring, especially when their arguments simply aren’t that good, as outlined above.

Avatar image for vaiz
vaiz

3144

Forum Posts

28

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 4

#6  Edited By vaiz

I'm straight up not excited about new consoles. So far, nothing has been shown for either machine that really screams generational jump, to me. Yes, there's ray tracing, yes, there's 4k 60 FPS, and that's great, but those still feel incremental. Nothing makes me go 'holy crap' like the first trailers for Oblivion or Gears of War after the Ps2/Xbox generation did, nothing has demonstrated that level of 'wow, this is video games now'. Until something does, I really can't blame the guys for not being super stoked about something that doesn't have any really technically impressive show pieces yet. I dunno, this is generally the least exciting I remember a new generation of consoles being. Maybe that's because the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X came out mid way through this last gen, so it feels less like a generational jump and more like the final touches on a half step that we already took a few years ago, as opposed to like, going from the Ps3 and 360 to Xbone and Ps4, where we'd had hardware revisions throughout the years but not an actual increase in horsepower since 2005/6. If the One X and Pro had never come out, can you imagine how much more impressive it would be to suddenly see games running at 4K with HDR?

Avatar image for toughshed
ToughShed

502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7  Edited By ToughShed

You don't seem to get the basic point Jeff was making. He was shitting on the multiple SKUS because they are limiting the power of their console out of the gate and given they will probably release 2 more versions later, it will be pretty much a mess.

If you want rah rah gaming talk, go listen to Easy Allies or something.

What are they missing about the new consoles? Jeff is annoyed that he still has to balance performance vs image quality because he thinks that takes away one of the big benefits consoles have.

Exactly. Its actually diminishing the console experience to do this stuff.

Avatar image for toughshed
ToughShed

502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#8  Edited By ToughShed

sorry man but one of your big points to rebutt them for example on how there are no new games to play, is that they are releasing a Demon's Souls REMAKE (this is coming from about the biggest Demon's Souls fan there is, its a remake man) that is coming to PC also. Your points aren't exactly making the GB guys look silly for rightfully pointing this out.

It was the case with the last gen also so its not like its never the case, but you're lying to yourself on this one the most.

Avatar image for chaser324
chaser324

9040

Forum Posts

14877

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 13

#9 chaser324  Moderator

Even if you are exclusively a console player, I'm still not sure what's motivating you to immediately jump into this console launch. Unless you're a huge fan of Demon's Souls and need to play that remake as soon as possible, I'm not sure what exclusive titles would be pushing you to jump in right away.

Yes, you will be able to play some third-party titles with faster load times and potentially a higher resolution and/or frame-rate, but it remains to be seen just how notable those improvements will be.

If you have the disposable income and you know that buying the new console is inevitable for you, then certainly go ahead and take the plunge. Otherwise, I don't think there's much reason to fight the hordes for a pre-order.

Avatar image for stise
stise

193

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I will never understand how simply listening to others state their opinions can make people so frustrated and anxious. The calculus on this stuff is different for everyone. Some GB staff say there's more value in building a PC. That's untrue for me, so I'm definitely getting a console, though still undecided on which one. The world keeps spinning. Who cares?

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@toughshed: Have you listened to the Hotspot? Because you clearly don’t know what I’m referencing here.

Jeff was mad/disappointed about being able to choose between performance or graphics on the new consoles, like you can with many games on the Pro and X. It has nothing to do with SKUS.

And I don’t say anywhere I want hype, but just discussion that is:

1. Based on facts.

2. Didn’t make it sound like everyone has a gaming PC and there can’t get anything out of new consoles. Just someone at least trying to give another side of the story would make their takes much more nuanced. Constant doom and gloom gets real tiring.

Avatar image for cyrusraven
CyrusRaven

372

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@vaiz: Unfortunately until there's the Holo Deck this is just not going to happen anymore and people need to accept it. We are really pushing towards the upper plateau of what video games can do. Imo of course!

Avatar image for toughshed
ToughShed

502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13  Edited By ToughShed

@dragon_puncher said:

@toughshed: Have you listened to the Hotspot? Because you clearly don’t know what I’m referencing here.

Jeff was mad/disappointed about being able to choose between performance or graphics on the new consoles, like you can with many games on the Pro and X. It has nothing to do with SKUS.

I have. and dude... how doesn't that have to do with SKUs???? you are naming two SKUs of the console in your reply here. Those performance tuning options all do factor and matter with the SKUs. That's Jeff's whole point, that console purity and the plug and play quality is being diminished. I guess you just arne't understanding the point.

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@chaser324: Isn’t that just every console launch though? And most have been pretty damn successful still.

Sure they aren’t excited, I don’t mind that. What annoys me is the general sentiment that these consoles aren’t worth anybody’s time or just bad value in general. Basically, when GB are talking about the general industry, I wish they were able to see past their own situation a bit. They have been in this business for years, I expect a bit more of a critical analyses.

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#15  Edited By Dragon_Puncher

@toughshed: We are talking about next gen here. Pro and X was an example so I was sure you knew what I was talking about.

PS5/Series X will have the option to choose between performance and graphics in some games. That is Jeff’s issue, because he feels it diminished the power of the consoles (you shouldn’t have to choose, basically). It has nothing to do with SKUs.

Avatar image for cikame
cikame

3696

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By cikame

I disagree with all your points and did all my gaming on PC this generation, i'm sorry.
These consoles will probably be good eventually, not for me but for someone else, and this is the slowest launch i've ever seen, i have no idea why people are pre ordering them.

Avatar image for corvak
Corvak

2024

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Nothing keeps me in the build a PC camp quite like the prospect of CAD $90 PS5 games.

Gimme them steam sales.






Avatar image for chaser324
chaser324

9040

Forum Posts

14877

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 13

#18 chaser324  Moderator

@chaser324: Isn’t that just every console launch though? And most have been pretty damn successful still.

Sure they aren’t excited, I don’t mind that. What annoys me is the general sentiment that these consoles aren’t worth anybody’s time or just bad value in general. Basically, when GB are talking about the general industry, I wish they were able to see past their own situation a bit. They have been in this business for years, I expect a bit more of a critical analyses.

There's never been a launch with this much overlap with the previous generation. Things have been slowly moving in this direction with console launches, but this is definitely the most iterative set of consoles that we've ever had. There's nothing that we've seen thus far that has that "this couldn't be done on the previous generation" wow factor to it, and in fact most of it is being done on the previous generation and also being released there.

Avatar image for purpleurkel
PurpleUrkel

16

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@cikame: I don’t think the OP is discrediting the opinion that PC gaming is still a wonderful avenue (arguably better now than ever) to having a great experience without a console. His point seems to be that the GB crew has been incredibly dismissive of where these consoles fit into the greater gaming community, not just the self-professed “gamers” that frequent this site.

I would have to agree with them. I love the GB crew and exclusively visit this site for my industry analysis and opinions on new releases; I have been that way for a decade. That said I don’t know that I’ve ever heard them be as collectively out of touch with the average consumer as they have come off while discussing these new consoles.

Avatar image for vaiz
vaiz

3144

Forum Posts

28

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 4

@vaiz: Unfortunately until there's the Holo Deck this is just not going to happen anymore and people need to accept it. We are really pushing towards the upper plateau of what video games can do. Imo of course!

I want that holodeck, dawg. I want to be Sherlock Holmes.

Avatar image for gundato
Gundato

1040

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@chaser324: Isn’t that just every console launch though? And most have been pretty damn successful still.

The funny thing is that this might be the most compelling console launch in the modern (>PS1?) era... if you are changing vendor. If you were a sony house you now have xbox, 360, and xbox one games running even better for dirt cheap. If you were an MS house you have... a few of the PS4 greatest hits for a reasonable price. If you had both or are staying in the same brand? it is a normal console launch

But beyond that: This thread just reminds me of how fucked up we have all gotten by our echo chambers and friend simulators. People are so used to always hearing their opinions regurgitated back at them (... or influencers who are really good at making you think their opinions are yours...) that hearing something else is "wrong" and MUST be a scam or a bit.

EYE Divine Cybermancy is one of the greatest games ever made so anyone who doesn't like it must be lying to me because they just want the clicks. Right? ... Right?

But where things get extra shitty is that so many influencers also go full friend simulator (and yes, GB is not innocent of this). It isn't just that asshole lying to people to drum up controversy over oxygen not included being confusing. It is your friend who invites you into their home and has zoomed in deep conversations with you lying to you.

Maybe it is just that I grew up as a PC kid and when I did console I was the guy who liked Croc and SF 2010 (I still refuse to accept that Ken is not a scientist with banana hair) and only really lined back up with "mainstream" stuff around Demon Souls. I am used to people very aggressively telling me I am wrong and some fat fuck wannabe porn star in a red hat is cool. Hell, I like musou games and genuinely view GB's "fuck this god damned shit" coverage to be some of the best since they ALSO talk about what is new and how systems "feel". So if I hear that this console is a good deal or that something is stupid... eh.

Avatar image for chaser324
chaser324

9040

Forum Posts

14877

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 13

#22 chaser324  Moderator

@gundato said:
@dragon_puncher said:

@chaser324: Isn’t that just every console launch though? And most have been pretty damn successful still.

The funny thing is that this might be the most compelling console launch in the modern (>PS1?) era... if you are changing vendor. If you were a sony house you now have xbox, 360, and xbox one games running even better for dirt cheap. If you were an MS house you have... a few of the PS4 greatest hits for a reasonable price. If you had both or are staying in the same brand? it is a normal console launch

This is definitely a fair point. If you've been exclusively PlayStation or Xbox for a while, there's never been a better time to jump in on the other platform.

Avatar image for sombre
sombre

1311

Forum Posts

19

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

Giant Bomb hasn't felt like an enthusiast website for a while

Avatar image for humanity
Humanity

21142

Forum Posts

5738

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 40

User Lists: 15

I’ve once complained on these very forums about having to choose between performance or quality on the half step boxes and how that goes against the main distinguishing factor of a console over a PC and recall receiving very strong pushback that it’s actually a good thing so.. you know.. different strokes for different folks.

Avatar image for bigsocrates
bigsocrates

3418

Forum Posts

93

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25 bigsocrates  Online

@dragon_puncher: What facts did they get wrong? You haven't listed any. Instead you've said you were upset about their opinions, which they've given explanations for (you might not love those explanations.)

Like you want them to say "actually these consoles are a fantastic value?" What if they don't think they are? I don't think it's just about the PC thing either, since a lot of them play many games on console.

You haven't been clear about what you wish they'd say, nor about what they said that you didn't like except that they're critical and not excited. And they actually were very analytical about a lot of this stuff. They went into detail about why they don't like the performance/image quality tradeoff (basically the frame rate gains aren't that great, and unlocked frame rates that go up and down can be worse than a clean 30.) I felt that they were very clear in explaining where their opinions came from, and I'm a 99% console player who pre-ordered a Series X, so I'm not PC biased at all.

@chaser324: Actually these consoles are going to be able to do a lot that the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X won't. There's ray-tracing, for one thing, but more importantly they aren't going to be CPU limited the way the old consoles were, which means that they'll have a lot more horsepower for non-graphical upgrades like physics (including PhysX) and AI improvements.

We won't see that stuff for a bit, especially since most games will be cross-generational for a while, but there will be a big leap forward in capacity at some point.

It's like how the Xbox One and PS4 could do the nemesis system in Shadow of Mordor but the Xbox 360 version couldn't. Gameplay systems are where the bigger gains will be this gen, but it's really hard to show that in a trailer (and they don't want to suppress sales of old console versions of games by saying the AI will be worse or whatever.)

Avatar image for navster15
navster15

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@cikame: The reasons people are buying the new consoles are the same reasons why we’re seeing incredible demand for the nvidia 3000 series graphics cards. Namely, they allow our games to look and play better. Why can’t it just be that? Especially as someone on the PC side of things, how is that a novel idea? How many people are upgrading cards because their current card simply can’t catch up? Very few I’d wager. Most are probably upgrading from a 9-10-20 series card. It’s similar in the consoles space this time around.

Avatar image for chaser324
chaser324

9040

Forum Posts

14877

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 13

#27 chaser324  Moderator

@chaser324: Actually these consoles are going to be able to do a lot that the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X won't. There's ray-tracing, for one thing, but more importantly they aren't going to be CPU limited the way the old consoles were, which means that they'll have a lot more horsepower for non-graphical upgrades like physics (including PhysX) and AI improvements.

We won't see that stuff for a bit, especially since most games will be cross-generational for a while, but there will be a big leap forward in capacity at some point.

Yep. We will eventually see that gulf in capability become more apparent, but it's going to be a while. Every console generation seems to take about 1-2 years before developers start to hit their stride, and this one is going to be no different.

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@bigsocrates:

Specifically: Overall 4K adoption rates, as listed in the OP.

Generally: Value proposition of a gaming PC vs a new console. Bakalar with the most glaring example as per the OP. Since they put so much weight on the economic situation and how people might be more careful with their money, not mentioning the actual value of the components in these boxes compared to the price is pretty crazy.

Avatar image for bigsocrates
bigsocrates

3418

Forum Posts

93

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29 bigsocrates  Online

@navster15: There's also future proofing. If you think there will be PS5 or XBSX games you're going to want to play in 1.5-2 years and you have the cash now (and aren't anticipating a price drop) then what's the point in waiting? You get the benefit of better graphics and performance and loading for that time period, and then you get to play the titles when they come. It's not like there won't be PS5 titles worth playing.

Outside of hardware failures like RROD I've never regretted buying a console early and often regretted waiting. Maybe you'll save a little money or get a bundled game if you wait, but if someone told me that for $100 I could make all the games I played for the next year load 3X faster I'd probably take that deal. If you're going to buy it anyway at some point, why not now?

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@humanity said:

I’ve once complained on these very forums about having to choose between performance or quality on the half step boxes and how that goes against the main distinguishing factor of a console over a PC and recall receiving very strong pushback that it’s actually a good thing so.. you know.. different strokes for different folks.

Gotta say I agree with people there. Kinda thought Jeff’s argument on the Hotspot was crazy. Don’t think choosing between two options suddenly makes console gaming as muddied as PC.

Jeff‘s argument seemed to be though, that new consoles should be powerful enough to newer have to choose, which I think is a little naive. This is still not a $3.000 PC.

Avatar image for bigsocrates
bigsocrates

3418

Forum Posts

93

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31 bigsocrates  Online

@dragon_puncher: They said that they "heard" that 4K adoption was slower than anticipated. So they got a fact wrong on that, which, whatever. People make mistakes. And they probably have heard that from some people. I see that as kind of a harmless error.

Bakalar isn't a GB staffer so I don't consider him part of the core group. He's a CNET tech guy so I'm not surprised he's more on board with PC tech. All of their perspectives are somewhat warped from being in the industry a long time and having to get everything at or near launch (and at least having access to it at the office if they don't), but I don't see that as a big deal.

If you go back to the Bombcast when the Wii U launched they were super lukewarm on that. I think they were also kind of lukewarm on the Xbox One. I think at this point a lot of the value of these boxes is kind of speculative. We'll see how they react once they actually launch.

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@dragon_puncher said:

@chaser324: Isn’t that just every console launch though? And most have been pretty damn successful still.

Sure they aren’t excited, I don’t mind that. What annoys me is the general sentiment that these consoles aren’t worth anybody’s time or just bad value in general. Basically, when GB are talking about the general industry, I wish they were able to see past their own situation a bit. They have been in this business for years, I expect a bit more of a critical analyses.

There's never been a launch with this much overlap with the previous generation. Things have been slowly moving in this direction with console launches, but this is definitely the most iterative set of consoles that we've ever had. There's nothing that we've seen thus far that has that "this couldn't be done on the previous generation" wow factor to it, and in fact most of it is being done on the previous generation and also being released there.

Demon’s Souls definitely has that wow factor for me and for sure couldn’t be done on last gen.

One problem though is probably that it gets harder and harder to show of the improvements in graphics on places like Youtube or Twitch. It’s basically impossible to see the value of 4K unless it’s from a direct source on a big screen. Don’t know how developers solve this.

Avatar image for bladeofcreation
BladeOfCreation

2020

Forum Posts

27

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

Video game websites are not--or at least shouldn't be--mouthpieces for the multi-billion dollar companies that produce video games.

This sort of thing comes up for every single console launch covered by this site. Every single one.

Avatar image for bigsocrates
bigsocrates

3418

Forum Posts

93

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34 bigsocrates  Online

@dragon_puncher: It's an easy problem for developers to solve! Just set up a display kiosk in Gamestops and Targets to show what the graphics look like and...2020 strikes again. We're not really talking about how COVID has prevented PlayStation from buying an 18-wheeler, filling it with PS5s, and driving all around the country on tour like they would have for previous generations.

Avatar image for aires
Aires

155

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

I 100% agree with Jeff, launching a console and from the get-go offering two modes is really bad. Can’t you work to offer an optimal version to play on this 500 dollar console I just bought?

But, overall, I don’t see it as a “never buy these consoles”. What they mostly been saying is “why buy these now?”

Which is a thing I agree with even though I’m still tempted to buy them. I feel like most of my impulse to buy the new consoles is because my PS4 is 7 years old and I want a new shiny box.

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@dragon_puncher: They said that they "heard" that 4K adoption was slower than anticipated. So they got a fact wrong on that, which, whatever. People make mistakes. And they probably have heard that from some people. I see that as kind of a harmless error.

Bakalar isn't a GB staffer so I don't consider him part of the core group. He's a CNET tech guy so I'm not surprised he's more on board with PC tech. All of their perspectives are somewhat warped from being in the industry a long time and having to get everything at or near launch (and at least having access to it at the office if they don't), but I don't see that as a big deal.

If you go back to the Bombcast when the Wii U launched they were super lukewarm on that. I think they were also kind of lukewarm on the Xbox One. I think at this point a lot of the value of these boxes is kind of speculative. We'll see how they react once they actually launch.

Harmless error, sure. Not saying they are trying to discredit the consoles or some shit like that, but you asked for examples, so I delivered.

And yeah, you absolutely right, they have been luke warm on console launches for many years. If we go back to PS4/Xbox One there was also a pretty clear sentiment in the crew, that most people didn’t really want these boxes and this was probably going to be the last console generation.

So maybe I shouldn’t be surprised, I just wish that they would at least try to look past their own PC gaming bubble a bit. To me this sounds like it’s going to be the same as last generation where they dismiss the consoles for months and then when they come out, they are actually going to do great.

Avatar image for gundato
Gundato

1040

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@dragon_puncher: I forget if it is Brad or Vinny who keep saying it but I think "show the console boot up. show how fast you can get into a game" is the big "killer app" as it were. I remember back in the day thinking I did not need to waste my money on an SSD and then having my mind blown with how fast something loaded. Show me that with launching, not resuming, a console game and I will lose my shit

Which I think is what they are trying to do with ratchet and clank. And while I get that there are a LOT of assets on screen... my brain can't help but just think this is the titanfall 2 level/halo mcc again and they just have two smaller levels loaded into memory at the same time.

Avatar image for humanity
Humanity

21142

Forum Posts

5738

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 40

User Lists: 15

@dragon_puncher: I’m with Jeff in that you shouldn’t have to choose but everyone is different. I understand the argument that it’s good to have choice, but personally I hate the idea that with either option I’m missing out on something. If I have to choose between to compromised situations I rather not choose at all - buts that’s me.

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@gundato said:

@dragon_puncher: I forget if it is Brad or Vinny who keep saying it but I think "show the console boot up. show how fast you can get into a game" is the big "killer app" as it were. I remember back in the day thinking I did not need to waste my money on an SSD and then having my mind blown with how fast something loaded. Show me that with launching, not resuming, a console game and I will lose my shit

Which I think is what they are trying to do with ratchet and clank. And while I get that there are a LOT of assets on screen... my brain can't help but just think this is the titanfall 2 level/halo mcc again and they just have two smaller levels loaded into memory at the same time.

I do agree with this. Don’t think the marketing for either console has been completely on point. The advantage of the SSD should be huge, but it hasn’t been shown in a proper way. Maybe both companies know they will sell out at launch anyway and are hoping for word of mouth, but it seems like a weird omission.

Avatar image for dragon_puncher
Dragon_Puncher

671

Forum Posts

15

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@dragon_puncher: It's an easy problem for developers to solve! Just set up a display kiosk in Gamestops and Targets to show what the graphics look like and...2020 strikes again. We're not really talking about how COVID has prevented PlayStation from buying an 18-wheeler, filling it with PS5s, and driving all around the country on tour like they would have for previous generations.

True. Covid are obviously not making anything easier here. I still think both companies are going to sell pretty much whatever they make this year though and hopefully we get a truck filled with 100 inch TVs next year!

Avatar image for alistercat
alistercat

8320

Forum Posts

7444

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 19

I can't speak to everything that you're saying but I will absolutely agree with you on Jeff's disdain for having multiple graphical modes in console games. It's a really annoying stance. Even on the latest PC hardware you still can't have both. Raytracing is a massive performance killer, as is 4K resolution.

The options sucked on the PS4 Pro because the hardware wasn't that much better. So choosing between 4K 30Hz and 1080p 45hz in something like God of War was bad. Since this is a thing from the inception of the new console, a raytracing at 30 mode and a 60fps 1440 mode (or whatever specs they come up with) is a great choice. Having the choice of 2 graphic presets is a lot simpler than a PC graphics menu and a change I can get behind for consoles. You can't have it all.

I have to believe Jeff isn't saying "just make it" 60fps and with raytracing and 4K, but it often sounds like that.

Avatar image for cikame
cikame

3696

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@purpleurkel: I didn't say he was discrediting PC just that i'm one of those people that went with "Just build a PC", except it has nothing to do with the new consoles, the value of a PC isn't just being able to run next gen games so that kind of skews the value comparison a bit, Xbox is clearly the way to go if you want the most games for the least amount of money.

@navster15: People are pre ordering the new consoles because they want their games to look better? What games?
Demon Souls seems like the best argument for that, but regardless of the quality of the game currently the only title making an argument for next gen is a remake of an 11 year old ps3 game.

Avatar image for creepingdeath0
CreepingDeath0

488

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@dragon_puncher: You keep saying you want them to have a discussion based on facts and not their opinions but that's not how discussions work. They are inherently an exchange of opinions.

A discussion based on facts would basically be them reciting the system specs, price and launch lines up and... that'd be it. It'd be very short.

Avatar image for justin258
Justin258

16164

Forum Posts

26

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 8

#45  Edited By Justin258  Online

@dragon_puncher said:
  • "Just build a gaming PC instead." With one of their main points being that people don't have money of a new console because of the current economic situation, this just seems insane to me. On a recent Beastcast Bakalar even argued that a 3070 card at $500 is better value than a new console, which is just crazy. The fact of the matter is, compared to last generation the stuff you get in the new consoles is amazingly good value compared to if you had to build a comparable PC from scratch. There is a lot of breakdowns online (this is one of the easiest ones to follow), but the general consensus is that it would cost you at least $1.200 to build a PC equivalent to a PS5 and even more for an Xbox Series X. The value should be clear for anyone that actually looks at the specs. If we compare this to last generation, building an PS4 like PC cost you around $600-700. There is a good breakdown here, where they build a much stronger PC and if you remove Windows it is $692. And even with the value being much less, consoles still did great last generation.

EDIT: I just realized how long this is, so I'm going to spoiler block it.

So let’s talk about the value of a gaming PC for a minute.

In 2012, I built my first gaming PC, it cost me $730 and its weakest link was the graphics card. I later put a GTX 970 in it, a really good graphics card at the time, 8 more GB RAM for a total of 16, and an SSD, bringing the computer’s total cost up to a total of (ballparking here) $1200. That PC is currently sitting in a different room, taken apart, but if I were to put it back together and get it working again I bet it would play almost anything modern you can throw at it at 1080p, low-medium settings, at more than 30FPS (but maybe not reaching 60 on everything). That means that a midrange computer built before the Xbox One came out has been playing games better than the Xbox One for 8 years, at higher resolutions and framerates. It beats out the PS4, too, and the ability to run everything at 60FPS (up until the last year or so) means it beats out the Pro and One X in my book as well. It might have trouble playing Control and Crysis Remastered at reasonable framerates, but those two games bring 10900Ks and 3080s to their knees.

But that alone doesn’t get you more value. I paid more than twice what an Xbox One costs to get that machine up and running and many would argue that the higher framerate does not make up for that difference. That’s a reasonable argument, but…

Even today, that PC could do so many things. It would blow the water out of any $500 desktop or laptop you can get off the shelf at Wal-Mart or Best Buy or Amazon. You could spend time tinkering with pretty much anything you set your mind to and learn enough about pretty much any PC-related discipline to know what you really want to spend your money on. Want to mess with Photopshop or Krita? Go at it. Blender? You could get something going, though don’t expect anything amazing. CAD? Yeah, you could learn it. It’s not going to perform anywhere near as well as one of those shiny new 3080-based machines, but you could still do tons with it. Learn Python? Yes! Linux? Works great! Need a file server? That PC would do it! And it’s older than the consoles that are about to be pushed out the door!

My point, here, is that you’re not just buying a PC for playing video games. You’re paying for a PC, and a hell of a PC at that, one that can do a mind-boggling number of tasks if you’re just willing to get into it. That alone makes it more valuable than a $500 entertainment box that plays video games and streams Youtube, but let’s go a little further.

If you wanted to buy a console for gaming and a decent PC, how much would you need to spend? At least $300 for a discless new Xbox and, ballparking here, $400 for a PC that’s only going to be used to type up Word documents and check Facebook. If that’s all you need, then that’s probably a good deal for you. But four years down the line, that underpowered Xbox is going to be running games at sub-1080p at lower framerates than its bigger brother and that PC isn’t going to be holding up so well. Meanwhile, a $1200 PC made for gaming is going to still be running strong. Perhaps not running games at their highest settings, but still outperforming that Series S or even the Series X by a country mile, plus it will be blazing fast at doing anything you were going to use that $400 PC for, plus it will still be pretty good at doing way more tasks than you could ever do on that $400 PC, plus four years after that, when even newer consoles have released, it will still be able to do a lot of stuff long after that $400 PC has been donated to charity (hopefully you didn’t trash it).

The ultimate point of this post isn’t to say that consoles are useless and you should definitely buy a PC. That’s not true at all. Consoles definitely have their advantages – they are extremely convenient and easy, they require almost no technical knowledge, you can just plug them in and start playing, and you never have to troubleshoot them yourself. But you still need to spend a few more hundred dollars on something for PC-related tasks, so that $500 you spent on a Series X because you wanted the best console could easily also become $1000 because you also need a PC.

(*note: I am aware that some people have eschewed PCs from their life entirely in favor of a phone and consoles. If this is your arrangement, great! But it doesn’t change how much you can get out of a well-spec’d gaming PC, and it doesn’t change the fact that PCs are still way better at keeping track of your budget or doing internet-related tasks or any other sort of office work).

Also, that Demon's Souls remake is a) a remake and b) coming to PC, so it's not really an argument in favor of a PS5.

Avatar image for navster15
navster15

413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@cikame: Spider-Man is getting PS5 upgrades, so is Gears 5, Gears Tactics, Forza Horizon 4, Avengers, and others. And while some games like Cyberpunk aren't getting upgrades until 2021, the SSD and horsepower of the new consoles will make those games play better. This has been advertised since day one of the new console announcements.

Avatar image for toughshed
ToughShed

502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#47  Edited By ToughShed

@dragon_puncher said:

PS5/Series X will have the option to choose between performance and graphics in some games. That is Jeff’s issue, because he feels it diminished the power of the consoles (you shouldn’t have to choose, basically). It has nothing to do with SKUs.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk but you aren't getting it when you dismiss the SKU point... thats the whole point Jeff is making. You ignored the Series S there. The point is those graphics options are already acting differently on each launching SKU, and we know there will probably be two more in the lifetime of the console. Again, that makes consoles really complicated in a way they never used to be. Console plug and play purity is lost and some games will be really left in the dust. Control on my launch PS4 was awful (and not in a graphics snob way, in a single diget framerate any time you use your powers) and I think we are only going to see more of that.

Instead Jeff wished they just aimed high. I am there with him. Consoles are ruining their selling point. When I couldn't just play Control on the PS4 I bought and had to see it dip down to 5 FPS your savings arguments on consoles and arguments why they are preferable are going away.

Avatar image for purpleurkel
PurpleUrkel

16

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#48  Edited By PurpleUrkel

@creepingdeath0: I think what they mean by “facts” is that they would like to hear a discussion of how these consoles fit into the market that they’re clearly attempting to carve out for themselves. It’s incredibly easy (especially for an enthusiast site) to dismiss this round of consoles as unnecessary or lackluster as compared to the value of a gaming PC. I personally don’t think they have done a great job (from what I’ve heard on the podcasts) addressing the new consoles from the perspective of your average consumer.

I don’t necessarily believe that they have to provide that perspective, but it would be refreshing to hear as every other site is regurgitating the same speculations and assumptions on a (huge) section of the market that don’t appear to match up with any sort of available/provided data.

Avatar image for kcin
kcin

1105

Forum Posts

9

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I can't speak to everything that you're saying but I will absolutely agree with you on Jeff's disdain for having multiple graphical modes in console games. It's a really annoying stance. Even on the latest PC hardware you still can't have both. Raytracing is a massive performance killer, as is 4K resolution.

The options sucked on the PS4 Pro because the hardware wasn't that much better. So choosing between 4K 30Hz and 1080p 45hz in something like God of War was bad. Since this is a thing from the inception of the new console, a raytracing at 30 mode and a 60fps 1440 mode (or whatever specs they come up with) is a great choice. Having the choice of 2 graphic presets is a lot simpler than a PC graphics menu and a change I can get behind for consoles. You can't have it all.

I have to believe Jeff isn't saying "just make it" 60fps and with raytracing and 4K, but it often sounds like that.

I, like Jeff, just don't think that a graphics menu belongs in a console experience. I don't think Jeff is demanding 60fps at 4K with ray-tracing. I think he's saying "set realistic expectations and meet them". If the console can't do 60fps while also doing ray-tracing, or if it can't do 30fps while doing 4K, find something in the middle that it can do and just do that.

The only people making 4K, 60fps, and ray-tracing the hot-topic expectations that developers in the upcoming generation are meant to meet, are the developers and hardware manufacturers themselves. Perhaps they should stop hyping up this tech if it isn't usable without weird configurable concessions yet. I think that's the core of the critique against graphics settings.

The least compelling part of my PC experience is setting graphics options, and the most compelling part of the console experience is that it "just works". His (and my) frustration doesn't come from a desire to have it all. We just want it to be optimized to whatever is appropriate already. If they didn't talk about performance OR graphics, I wouldn't have thought about it, and these concessions they are admitting to making would therefore not be an issue.

Avatar image for frytup
frytup

1825

Forum Posts

5

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Oh, JFC. The argument has never been that next gen is worthless. It's just that the PS5 and Series X aren't very interesting now. Give it a year and they'll be much more attractive consoles.

And for the love of god, stop moaning about PCs. No rational person is making the claim that PC gaming is cheap, but you shouldn't be shocked that people who have PCs prefer that platform. Game on what you want and stop worrying about other people's choices.